Cliff Varnell

1 minute ago, Cory Santos said:

So even Cliff agrees with me on one narrow point, CIA had nothing to do with it.

Like that line from "Cool Hand Luke"  -- "What we've got here is failure to communicate."

I strongly suspect JFK was hit by high tech weapons developed for the CIA.

1 minute ago, Cory Santos said:

Again it’s a simple misinterpretation of what Pres. Trump said and what he meant.   

Trump doesn't know what he said or meant from moment to moment.  He could look at the withheld files and not grasp anything about them.

I don't believe a word that piece of garbage says.  MAGA is in an all-out assault on every American institution including the CIA, FBI, the military, the justice system, the electoral process and the independent media.  Christian Fascism is coming folks -- it's time to wake up.

18 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I aways wondered how barely 200 average hitting Hal Lanier stuck around so long as the Giants shortstop.

They guy barely batted his weight!

The Giants pitchers had better hitting ability than Lanier. I don't remember the guy ever hitting a home run!

Lanier was solid on defense and could play short and second base,  He was smart.  He once scored from first on a Jimmy Davenport bunt.  Joe Torre thought the ball was going to go foul and slammed it down in frustration when it stayed fair.  The Braves catcher had run up the line and Lanier just kept going with no one covering home.

18 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Loved Jimmy Ray Hart at 3rd base.

Good power, decent fielding. I couldn't understand a word he said in after game interviews but his excited energy, tone and manner of speaking sounded happy natured upbeat and even fun! 

Super fast talking barely English speaking 2nd baseman Tito Fuentes same thing.

Most memorable Giant/Dodger team fight was when batter Juan Marichal barely ducked a dangerously high-and-in pitch that inspired him to take a bat swing at Dodger catcher Johnny Roseboro head when Roseboro took offense to Marichal's overtly animated complaining. Holy Toledo!

I think Marichal's bat swing at Roseboro's head actually drew blood!

Date...August 22nd, 1965.

Juan Marichal vs Sandy Koufax in the heat of a pennant race.  As I recall Marichal had a problem with Roseboro throwing the ball back to the mound an inch from Marichal's ear.  The Giants won the game 4 - 3 but Juan was suspended for 10 games, and those two lost starts may have cost the Giants the NL crown.

I saw Marichal pitch live a couple of times.  He beat the Pirates at the 'Stick 4 - 3, and lost to the Mets at Shea 1 - 0 in 10 innings.  I don't think that happens anymore -- a starting pitcher go into extra innings.

22 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

I remember we got burned trading Gaylord Perry and Frank Duffy to the Indians for Sam Mac Dowell. who came to the NL and was never the same, against NL hitting.

Frank Duffy was involved in two of the Worst Trades in Bay Area Sports History.

We got him from the Reds in a trade for George Foster.  The Giants basically traded an MVP powerhouse and a Cy Young winner for "Sudden Sam" McDowell who'd turned suddenly wild for the Indians the year before and found himself suddenly in the Giants bullpen before they got rid of him

22 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Probably the worst trade the Giants made in the 60's was trading Orlando Cepeda for Ray Sadecki. Cepeda  becomes MVP and leads the Cadinals to a title.

I think we did it because Sadecki always pitched well against us , but never pitched well against our chief rivals, the Dodgers, and he was just a general washout when he got to SF. 

 

In May of '66 Sadecki and the Cardinals beat the Giants 2 - 1 and the next day they traded Cepeda for him.  Orlando was a first baseman and the Giants had Willie McCovey.  Both of those guys were defensive liabilities in the outfield, so something had to give.  Sadecki beat the Dodgers at least once.  June '68 at the 'Stick,  9 - 2.  I was at that game, which was most notable for the MLB debut of Bobby Bonds.  In his second big league at bat he hit a grand slam.  Next AB the bases were loaded again, but he walked.

I saw Perry face off live against Tom Seaver at Shea Stadium in 1971.  5 - 3 Mets.

I saw Willie Mays play live a half dozen games .  He was uncharacteristically quiet.  The most memorable hit was a blast off the chain link fence at the 'Stick that bounced right back to the left fielder who held Mays to a single.  Then McCovey came up and smashed a two run homer.  

Ashton Gray claimed Nurse Diana Bowron stabbed JFK in the throat with a poison needle while JFK was wheeled from the limo to the ER.

When I argued against that scenario he accused me of being a government disinformation agent.

His real name is Randall MacDonald (iirc), a hardcore Scientologist.

David Lifton shared with me his later theories in a phone call in 2019.  He assumed he spoke in confidence, which I won't breach even though he's passed.

To get the definitive word on David's theories we'll have to wait until Final Charade gets published.

19 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

It destroys the Lone Nut theory, indeed.

The key detail in Croft is the normal amount of visible shirt collar, which indicates the jacket collar was in a normal position.  Normally, the lower margin of clothing collars are at the base of the neck, or slightly above.  The SBT requires several inches of shirt and jacket to elevate above the top of the back without pushing up the jacket collar at the base of the neck.

This scenario is contrary to the nature of reality.

 

Please note the inability of Lone Nutters (or T1/CTs) to rebut the above.

7 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

The difference between your 4" (shirt) and 4.125" (jacket) vs. the 5 3/4" (shirt) and 5 3/8" (jacket) that I quote Frazier as giving appears to be a difference based on whether the measurement is made from the bottom of the collar (your measurement) or the top of the collar (the Frazier measurement). Either way, the hole is too low for the Single Bullet Theory to work, as the bullet would have to track upward in order to exit at the front of Connally's throat (possibly after deflecting off the spine, which would likely have caused damage to the bullet), and that upward track would have been problematic for the Connally wounding.

It destroys the Lone Nut theory, indeed.

7 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

A "fraction of an inch" isn't what the Croft photo appears to show at the top back of Kennedy's coat collar (which looks to be tightly bunched by several inches). However, "a fraction of an inch" is something I won't argue over. Still too low for the SBT to work, however. 

The key detail in Croft is the normal amount of visible shirt collar, which indicates the jacket collar was in a normal position.  Normally, the lower margin of clothing collars are at the base of the neck, or slightly above.  The SBT requires several inches of shirt and jacket to elevate above the top of the back without pushing up the jacket collar at the base of the neck.

This scenario is contrary to the nature of reality.

21 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

But is the Croft photo unaltered? Glen Bennett said in same-day notes reported by the WC that he saw JFK being hit "about four inches down from the right shoulder." Clint Hill viewed the body in the morgue in order to report back to the family and testified that the hole in the body was "about 6 inches below the neck line." Robert Frazier testified that the hole in Kennedy's coat was "5 3/8 inches below the top of the collar" and the hole in the shirt was "5 3/4 inches below the top of the collar." I'm pretty sure that the Croft photo was altered (See my essay at https://www.a-benign-conspiracy.com/the-altered-croft-photo.html), and I doubt that Kennedy's jacket would ever fit him that badly, even with the back brace on.

The bullet hole in the shirt is 4" below the bottom of the collar, the hole in the jacket is 4.125" below the bottom of the collar.

The Croft photo shows a similar fraction of an inch ride up of the coat -- "a little bit."

18 hours ago, Bill Simpich said:

Hargraves related to Hemming that he and Vidal had gone to Dallas but that he had no prior knowledge of a conspiracy, asserting that he had no idea of what was going to happen in Dallas and was simply taken there to perform a specific job (building a bomb). Hargraves also repeatedly stressed that neither he nor Vidal were involved in the actual murder. He remained vague on Vidal's role however, in the first phase of the interviews, he stated that he and Vidal were on Elm Street and Vidal acted as a signal man; in the second round of interviews he became much more circumspect about Vidal and their being on Elm Street at the time of the shooting.

This explains why DCM held up a "hold fire" signal during the shooting sequence, why he didn't depart the scene immediately, why he may have carried a radio.  I don't see a function for Umbrella Man in this scenario -- why the redundant signal man?

Shouldn't we look at photos below and above the overpass for other possible Bomb Team perps?  Someone had to have a thumb on the detonator, yes?

6 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

I see an epitaph being chiseled for you as we write here.

Thanks for the invitation to live rent-free in your head.  I pass.

3 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

Hang it up, Clifford.  You're a bore.  Anyway, word on the street in the 80s here in DC's (via Bad Brains) was you're full of it.   

When Ian MacKaye (Minor Threat vocalist) told H.R. (Bad Brains vocalist) they were "hardcore" H.R. said, "Like in porno?"

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

Did Kubrick clear that with "you all" before using that in the final scene of Full Metal Jacket? 

Speaking of Mickey Mouse...

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

I've already explained the other factors -- in this thread.   He's photo'd training Alpha-66 -- which included Plumlee as you probably know and thus he's not necessarily the best witness here in light of your comment above  -- along with George W. Bush. 

That's it? 

Joannides trained Alpha-66 therefore he smeared make-up on, stood out in Dealey Plaza giving a hold-fire signal during the shooting sequence, then sat on the curb for a while where he could be photographed.

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

Differences in complexion may be attributable to makeup, which appears in at least one photo of DC to be smearing, possibly.  

Not Disney.  Loony Tunes.

14 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

The secret second article.  Right.  Why do I feel like you've used this as a pick-up line at bars for going-on 45 years now?  I suppose trolling internet fora on JFK research was the inevitable result, one day.  Here we are, and am the guy you pull it on. 

A condescending know it all who challenges my bonafides -- you're the right guy.

14 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

Still, I can take it. 

Evidently not. You keep harping on it.

I asked a simple question that you are unwilling to answer -- what "other factors" did you base your ID of Joannides upon?

Authoritarian personality types melt down at the simplest of challenges.

14 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

 

But I am gonna do my best to give you something more fitting a man of your would-be intellect to take pride in.   What are you 65-ish?

BTW, I hope you're not taking credit for Foam-Core.  Or The Marine Corps even.  Now matter how much it impresses your friends.  

No, we're taking credit for any non-pornographic use of the word "hardcore" after 1979.

24 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

I did read the 'effing article.  Melissa Mohr of the Christian Science Monitor cites Marriam-Webster:

There was a second article you didn't read.

The purpose of this thread was to explore the possibility Felipe Vidal Santiago and Roy Hargraves were photographed as Dark Complected Man and Umbrella Man.  Relevant to this discussion is the observed actions of DCM and UM in Dealey Plaza photographs, as well as an eyewitness description of UM's actions.

Umbrella Man and Louis Witt have prominent noses -- Roy Hargraves does not.

Scratch Roy Hargraves as UM.

That leaves us with a reasonable question:  what was Santiago/DCM doing in Dealey Plaza?

52 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Sorry Bill, but it appears this thread has been hijacked.

All I did was ask what Felipe Santiago (or George Joannides) and Roy Hargraves were doing in Dealey Plaza.  Seems like a reasonable question.

50 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

That says written by Melissa Mohr. 

No, Melissa Mohr had nothing to do with the origination of hardcore punk rock.

50 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

I don't see your input there, or your "impact."

You didn't read the material.  I was the first promoter of "hardcore punk rock."

50 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

It's unimpressive in any case, and a degradation arguably of language anyway (i.e. again short on value),

My friends and I saved the word "hardcore" from a strictly pornographic connotation and added the suffix "-core" to the language.  Dozens of words.  You'll never approach that kind of impact.

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

I didn't agree with you -- you've got it backwards.  You agreed with me. 

Factually incorrect.  I asserted Averell Harriman held the most individual responsibility for the Vietnam War, and you said he was tied.  I asserted the Golden Triangle cabal took down the French Connection and you agreed.

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

Then disappeared on that topic, challenging as it may the implications to conventional wisdom. 

Yes, it was a lot of material to go over and this is not my main writing pursuit.

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

No matter.  Here, you have spent -- what? -- at least five exchanges of utter meaninglessness and passive aggressive quips that amount to nothing, add nothing. 

You ID'd Joannides as DCM on the basis of clothing and other factors.  Rather than take advantage of the opportunity to explain these "other factors" you decided to pitch a fit

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

Stake a claim man.  Write.  Express yourself in coherent and developed writing that demonstrates you are capable of thought.   Add some value. 

Spare me.  I had impact on the lexicon.  

https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/In-a-Word/2022/0207/Getting-to-the-heart-of-words-made-with-core#:~:text=The suffix -core comes from,groups such as political parties.

The suffix -core comes from hard core, which at first (1841) referred to broken bricks or stones that formed the hard substratum of roads and foundations. By the 1930s, it was an adjective that described the “base” or “core” of groups such as political parties. It then made its way into pornography and, in the 1970s, music, where it was used for “very loud, fast rock,” according to Merriam-Webster. </q>

Years ago on the Ed Forum Tosh Plumlee told a tale of a routine abort team mission he helped fly into Dallas early morning 11/22/63.  He said he dropped Johnny Roselli off on an earlier stop.  The abort team was deployed to Dealey Plaza without the needed intelligence to stop the assassination  This is not a widely believed account, but I was willing to give Tosh the time of day on the matter.  He said that DCM looked like abort team member "Gator."  I suggested Gator was confused by the actions of Umbrella Man and sat down next to him to sort him out.  Tosh loved that idea, and thereafter referred to DCM positively as "Gator."

So Gator held his fist in the air to hold the abort team at bay?  That might explain the radio.  That is a more plausible scenario than DCM working for the perps, far fetched as it may be.

9 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

You are a complete and utter time-waster, on this and other threads. 

That's odd, you agreed with me on other threads about Harriman's responsibility for Vietnam and Golden Triangle interests taking down the Corsican Mafia.  I may have been the only poster here who gave you the time of day on your Moynihan-as-Deep Throat riff.  I asked for a point of clarification on psych drug experiments under the Harriman Administration in the late 50's.  Yes, all that material you posted in response to me must have been a waste of time.  Good to know.  

7 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Yes, I'm sure, especially at that point along Elm street.

A few other people had raised arms.

7 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

But now I am decidedly less sure of any coherence on your part.  First I thought you were pleading his innocence.

I plead innocence for Umbrella Man.

I'm agnostic about DCM.

7 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Now you're saying he's signaling to "hold fire."  Which is it? 

I'm trying to coax out of you a cogent scenario wherein George Joannides stood on the curb or in the street holding his fist in the air.  The shooting had already started and a raised fist is a military signal for "hold fire."

And then sit down out in the open for several minutes where he could be photographed.

10 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

I don't know.  You're the true detective.

Ah, so you can't address the issue so it's straight to snark.

10 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

But I say he's Joannides. 

Doing what?

10 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

I say a guy with his hand up in the road the moment the president gets shot is suspicious.  You don't, evidently. 

He held up his fist after the first shot -- that's a military signal for hold fire.

Are you sure "people-raising-their-arms-as-the-President-passes" is where you want to plant your flag?

Matt, what was the Hargraves/Santiago function? 

Is that how a military style ambush proceeds -- spotters out on the street separate from the shooters?

Just now, Matt Cloud said:

uh .. because running from a shooting looks bad?

Why run?  Calmly walk away.

Just now, Matt Cloud said:

 

  Why not sit a few moments, see if anyone is taking notice of you, the gently get up and walk off in separate ways and never be heard from again.

Because you could be photographed.  Why not immediately saunter off and not give anyone time to notice you?

Just now, Matt Cloud said:

 

  That's the definition of getting away "as soon as possible."  Not immediately.  But when it's possible.  When the coast is clear.

 

Oy!

 

 

The coast was clear.  Attention was directed toward the grassy knoll.

1 minute ago, Matt Cloud said:

"Wouldn't the perps want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP without drawing attention?"

 

That's exactly what they did.  

How is sitting down on the curb getting away from the scene ASAP?

Okay.  So Umbrella Man was Roy Hargraves and Dark Complected Man was Felipe Vidal Santiago (or Gordon Novel and George Joannides).

What were they doing there?  Signaling?  To whom?  The shooters?  The shooters were watching Hargraves, Santiago and Kennedy at the same time?  If they were signaling to a spotter standing next to a shooter -- what could they possibly signal that the spotter couldn't see thru binoculars?

So after the murder of a US President two of the conspirators casually took a seat on the curb where they could be photographed.  Wouldn't the perps want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP without drawing attention?

As odd as Witt's Chamberlain-umbrella-shaming story seems, the above scenario is pure bonkers.

BTW, Umbrella Man and Louis Witt had prominent noses, Hargraves did not.