Cliff Varnell

Joseph Trento, The Secret History of the CIA, pgs 334-5

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Who changed the coup [overthrow of Ngo Brothers in South Vietnam 11/01/63] into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Sagon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

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1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

I don't understand the Jew and WASP bit, Cliff, other than as a tortured attempt to tie Harriman and Bundy together as significant factors in the murder.  I don't think they were.   Bit players perhaps.

The rest of that is Salandria on the money.

The actions of Harriman and Bundy tie together as significant factors in the murder.  I’m just demonstrating Salandria’s prescience.

Are you familiar with the career of Averell Harriman, or the sway he wielded over SE Asia policy?

Earlier in their careers the Dulles brothers were Harriman employees.  I doubt that ever changed.

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

The call came from the WH situation room (not apparently from Bundy himself who was running the place at the time).

Not from Bundy?  Where do you get that idea?

The President Has Been Shot, Charles Roberts (p. 141) A reporter for Newsweek, Roberts was on AFI and saw McGeorge Bundy at Andrews Air Force Base, where Air Force One landed. 

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I remember looking at (McGeorge) Bundy because I was wondering if he had any word of what had happened in the world while we were in transit, whether this assassination was part of a plot. And he told me later that what he reported to the president during that flight back was that the whole world was stunned, but there was no evidence of a conspiracy at all.

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1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

Since it came so soon after the murder and contained assertions the caller could not have verified beforehand, it must have been planned ahead of time by the killers.  

Do I know the specific person who ordered the call?  No.  Is that important?  I don't think so. 

The last thing we want to do is follow a lead...

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

Whoever it was, he was a planner or someone representing them, and carrying out the coverup plan they had devised.  

An aside to Cliff.  Salandria explained what he thought was the motive for call as part of the coverup. 

He also cited Jim Bishop as the basis for his assertion McGeorge Bundy made the call.

The Tale Told by Two Tapes by Vincent Salandria  

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[National Security Adviser] McGeorge Bundy was in charge of the [White House] Situation Room and was spending that fateful afternoon receiving phone calls from President Johnson, who was calling from Air Force One when the lone-assassin myth was prematurely given birth. (Bishop, Jim, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, New York & Funk Wagnalls, 1968, p. 154) McGeorge Bundy as the quintessential WASP establishmentarian did not take his orders from the Mafia and/or renegade elements. 

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1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

It was to convey to those coming back from Dallas, maybe particularly the Kennedy aides, that no matter what you think you saw, we have officially solved the murder.  Don't interfere.

Vincent Salandria: "Notes on Lunch with Arlen Specter on January 4, 2012"

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I explained [to Specter] that the day after the Kennedy assassination I met with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman. We decided that if Oswald was the killer, and if the U.S. government were innocent of any complicity in the assassination, Oswald would live through the weekend. But if he was killed, then we would know that the assassination was a consequence of a high level U.S. government plot. 
Harold Feldman and I also concluded that if Oswald was killed by a Jew, it would indicate a high level WASP plot. We further decided that the killing of Oswald would signal that no government investigation could upturn the truth. In that event we as private citizens would have to investigate the assassination to arrive at the historical truth.

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Jack Ruby was Jewish.

In 1963 Averell Harriman (Skull & Bones 1913) and McGeorge Bundy (Skull & Bones 1940) were the top two WASPs in the US government.
 

There’s doubt?

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

The only time Roger said anything about Harriman is when he disagreed with your assessment that the idea of there being no Soviet involvement originated with him.

You can read it yourself if you wish, here:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29950-the-exoneration-of-lyndon-johnson/?do=findComment&comment=522596

 

<quote>

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Cliff,

(EDIT: I wrote the following while Cliff was posting the previous post.)

In his OP, Roger Odisio said the following:

The call from the White House situation room telling those coming back to DC that the murderer had already been arrested and he did it alone.  Absolute proof that the preplanned cover up was off and running. The Situation Room was run at the time by McGeorge Bundy, the guy who had already redrafted NSM 263 as 273 that Johnson would sign the day after JFK was buried.

(I had no idea that Washington's lone-nut decision had already been made by then.)

 

When I read that, I recalled what you have said before about Averil Harriman. I replied:

Early indications shortly after the assassination were that the assassination was a Cuban/Russian plot.

As Cliff Varnell likes to point out, this possibility was quickly discounted by Averell Harriman, who said that all the Soviet experts agreed that the Russians weren't involved in the plot. Which wasn't true... the Soviet experts had not been consulted. ...

The information back to Air Force 1 saying that Oswald was the lone murderer probably originated from whoever consulted Harriman.

 

 

Roger disagreed with that and said that the idea that loner Oswald was to blame, and not the Soviets, came from the plotters, not Harriman, and were relayed to Air Force One by McGeorge Bundy. Roger said that this was the beginning of the plotter-planned cover up.

Where did Roger say anything about Harriman?

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Here are my questions for you:

1. Do you believe that Harriman's comments about the Kremlinologists came early enough that they influenced what Bundy relayed to Air Force One on their flight back to DC (about Oswald being the lone killer)?

I think it’s reasonable to speculate that Harriman told his little Skull & Bones brother Bundy to push the Lone Nut scenario once the designated Commie Patsy escaped death.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

1. Regarding the topic of this post, how does your belief differ from Roger's? (It appears that the primary difference is that you belief Harriman was in on the plot and whereas Roger doesn't. Though he might believe Bundy was.)

 

Someone Would Have Talked, Larry Hancock, pg 401-2:

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1:15 PM on November 22, when the President was known to be dead, Malcolm Kilduff approached Johnson about making a statement.  Johnson’s response was, “No.  Wait.  We don’t know whether it’s a Communist conspiracy or not.  Are they prepared to get me out of here?”  Johnson’s first concern after the shooting appears to be conspiracy.  While still at Parkland both S.A. Youngblood and S. A. Roberts approached Johnson with similar concerns and strongly advised him to get out of Dallas and get airborne as quickly as possible...

Despite his own remark and those of the Secret Service, Johnson appeared reluctant to leave Parkland. </q>

He was waiting for the outcome with the Patsy.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Bundy didn't consult Harriman?

 

We don’t have direct evidence of it, but it’s a reasonable assumption.  I understood your comment — “Whoever consulted Harriman” — as a reference to someone other than Bundy.

On 12/9/2023 at 2:27 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Early indications shortly after the assassination were that the assassination was a Cuban/Russian plot.

As Cliff Varnell likes to point out, this possibility was quickly discounted out by Averell Harriman, who said that all the Soviet experts all agreed that the Russians weren't involved in the plot. Which wasn't true... the Soviet experts had not been asked.

It is because of this that Cliff believes that Harriman was behind the assassination plot.

Not just “because of this.”  Harriman made SE Asia his bailiwick as soon as Kennedy hired him in early ‘61. Harriman side-stepped JFK to green-light the overthrow of Diem.  After Diem’s murder, JFK moved Harriman to Latin American affairs.  The murder of JFK suited Harriman’s goals in SE Asia.

On 12/9/2023 at 2:27 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

But IMO, Harriman simply couldn't believe that the Russians would make such a dangerous move, and decided himself to proclaim so, adding that other experts agreed with him just to give it some weight. Making such a bold move is in character for Harriman.

It would have been “in character” for an innocent Harriman to consider the possibility a rogue Soviet faction pulled off the hit, and “in character” to consult others.

The murder occurred less than 6 hours earlier.  A little soon to draw conclusions, ain’t it?

On 12/9/2023 at 2:27 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

The information back to Air Force 1 saying that Oswald was the lone murderer probably originated from whoever consulted Harriman.

There’s no evidence anyone consulted Harriman.  Bundy and Harriman were Skull & Bones brothers.  The information back to AF1 probably resulted from Harriman consulting Bundy.

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

BB season is over, it'll be a while before you can payoff that bet.  I saw the Vikings - Raiders score, and the one highlight (the FG).  Pretty underwhelming.

3 - 0 NFL games are rare in the modern era.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/game_scores_find.cgi?pts_win=3&pts_lose=0

9 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Jack Grisham, one of the great punk rock frontmen.

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Now, those defending Johnson, like Valenti, claim he needed to fly back with the widow and the body to project the continuity of government and strength. But I think the unstated part is that he wanted to project his innocence in the matter. "Like, look, if I was behind this, or had anything to do with this, would I have the balls to walk off Air Force One with my arms around the widow?"

Another possible example of this:

Ten minutes after LBJ first arrived at the White House, Averell Harriman told him the US gov’t top Kremlinologists were unanimous in the view the Soviets were not involved.

But there was no communication between the top Soviet hands that day.  Harriman’s lie is highly suspicious.

On 11/22/63 where did Jackie and the kids spend the night?  

Harriman’s Georgetown pad.

15 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Cliff tonight we went to the invite party at Allegiant Stadium.   It was great food.   You missed out.  I’ll send pictures.  I was asked about JFK and did mention his shirt, tie, and suit.   So extra points for me.  

Hate to say it, but there were no extra points at Allegiant this weekend.

Minnesota beat the A’s 3 - 0...Check that!  Minnesota beat the Raiders 3 - 0.

1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:

The food was great as pictures I sent you.  Shocked about the clothes.  Had no clue.  They thought I would rehash things they heard before lol!   I said the case is really not as tough as some make it out to be.  

Reminds me of a conversation I once had with Jack Grisham, one of the great punk rock frontmen.

Me:  JFK was the victim of a conspiracy.

Jack:  Nah.

Me:  The bullet holes in the clothes are too low.

Jack:  ...Ahhh.

9 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Cliff tonight we went to the invite party at Allegiant Stadium.   It was great food.   You missed out.  I’ll send pictures.  I was asked about JFK and did mention his shirt, tie, and suit.   So extra points for me.  

No Coliseum Dogs in that buffet!

So, how did your friend respond to your citation of Actual Physical Evidence?

15 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Back to business:  Johnny Cairns cited the Actual Physical Evidence in the JFKA twice in “60 Reasons.”

Did he cite the bullet holes in the clothes in his Lancer presentation?

Or did Paul Bleau?

I take it the answer is No.

The last time the Actual Genuine Physical Evidence in the JFKA was cited at a November Conference was 1998, when E.  Martin Schotz told COPA he found the bullet defects in the clothes comparable in evidentiary value to the entire 26 WC volumes.

https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/FalseMystery/COPA1998EMS.html

 Also, he tore ‘em a new one.

https://ratical.org/ratville/////JFK/FalseMystery/COPA1998EMSapp.html

How COPA’s Cooperation With The Government Facilitates The Cover-Up with a Case Example

Back to business:  Johnny Cairns cited the Actual Physical Evidence in the JFKA twice in “60 Reasons.”

Did he cite the bullet holes in the clothes in his Lancer presentation?

Or did Paul Bleau?

My maternal grandfather was a Glasgow-born McPherson.  I spent a week in ‘94 chauffeuring my Mom and my Sister around the The Old Country.  I found the Scottish people so relentlessly polite I needed a tube clerk in London to treat me like an idiot so I could feel back on terra firma.

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

True.  When my wife and I toured Scotland about 30 years ago, we were able to understand most of the Scots, except for the people in Glasgow.

 

I went to see the Irish play “Playboy of the Western World” in Glasgow — Glaswegian actors with Irish accents.  I detected some English in there, not a lot.

On 12/6/2023 at 10:19 AM, Pete Mellor said:

Johnny is from Edinburgh, hope you understood the accent.  

They speak English in Edinburgh.

Glasgow?  Not so much...

3 hours ago, Andrew Iler said:

I attended a large public presentation by Paul Bleau in Quebec City on October 24th wherein he discussed the discrepancies in bullet hole locations in the President’s clothing and on the President’s back. As part of the presentation, Paul had a PowerPoint going that displayed photos of the shirt, the autopsy photo and the autopsy report. 

 

Can we change the title of the thread to…. “Cliff loses his lunch”?

Rock’n good news!  I may have to treat Cory at two Vegas A’s games.

Paul Bleau is Canadian, Johnny Cairns is Scottish.  Are there any American researchers with the savvy to grasp the significance of physical evidence in a cold case murder investigation?

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

From patspeer.com, Chapter 9:

Silent, But Deadly

While trying to figure out if the bullet fired in F-114 had indeed been subsonic, however, I discovered that there was an historical basis for my suspicion that a small caliber weapon firing subsonic ammunition had been used in the assassination. While reading about the CIA’s overthrow of the Guatemalan Government in 1954, I discovered that, among the supply lists, lists of communists to be killed after the take-over, and other documents released in 1997, there was a CIA Manual on Assassination. In this manual there were several relevant passages. At one point, when discussing the advantages and disadvantages of assassinating people with firearms, the manual relates "Public figures or guarded officials may be killed with great reliability and some safety if a firing point can be established prior to an official occasion. The propaganda value of this system may be high.” (Note that the propaganda chief for this operation was future Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt, who, shortly before his death, admitted an involvement in the Kennedy assassination to his son, and claimed David Morales, one of the CIA's para-military trainers for the Guatemalan Operation, and presumably one of those handing out the CIA' Manual on Assassination, was also involved.) Elsewhere, the manual deals specifically with the issue of subsonic charges, noting “pistols, submachine guns and any sort of improvised carbine or rifle which will take a low velocity cartridge can be silenced,” and then cautioning “Because permissible velocity is low, effective precision range is held to about 100 yards with rifle or carbine type weapons.”

Further confirmation came from studying the supply lists prepared for the Guatemalan op. On one such list there is the surprising item ".22 cal. rifles w/silencers." As larger caliber rifles were available, this gives a clear indication that .22 caliber rifles with silencers were a preferred assassination weapon, and that the 100 yard limit mentioned in the assassination manual was true for these weapons. While I've taken a lot of guff from shooters about this, as they all seem convinced that a sniper rifle firing a small subsonic bullet would be nearly worthless at the distances of Dealey Plaza, I suspect their concern is overstated. Geoffrey Boothroyd, the English Firearms expert who advised James Bond creator Ian Fleming on the weapons described in his books, once famously wrote Fleming: "Silencers. These I do not like. The only excuse for using one is a .22 rifle using low-velocity ammunition, i.e., below the speed of sound." Former sniper Craig Roberts, in his book Kill Zone, moreover, wrote of his suspicion that a "CIA-issued .22 caliber Model 74 Winchester silenced sniper rifle" was fired at Kennedy, wounding him in the throat. Subsequent investigation on my part revealed that, yes indeed, the Winchester 74 sniper rifle pre-dated the assassination and is a semi-automatic weapon, meaning it could be fired quite rapidly, causing separate hits on Kennedy and Connally, and creating the illusion they were hit by the same bullet. I found a photo of such a rifle, furthermore, in the 1991 book OSS Special Weapons and Equipment by H. Keith Melton, an expert on the CIA and its predecessor, the OSS. This is reproduced below:

Note that the range is 100 yards, the same as that of the assassination weapons described in the CIA Manual on assassination.

Elsewhere on the page, the advantages of such a rifle are further detailed.

"A Weapon that eliminates muzzle flash and muzzle noise offers several advantages to special forces personnel.

(1) The source of the fire is masked.

(2) The location of the weapon is difficult for the enemy to pinpoint.

(3) The enemy can not identify the numbers or type(s) of weapons firing, or their range.

(4) The weapon has less recoil and is more accurate to fire.

(5) The enemy is harassed and confused.

(6) The sniper has a psychological advantage over the enemy."

In 2007, at a swap meet, I came across an old book entitled Everyday Ballistics that gave me more reason to believe such a weapon was used on 11-22-63. This book had been the property of the U.S. Navy. In the chapter on bullet drop, it reports that a fully charged .22 long rifle bullet--the type of bullet used in the Winchester 74 rifle--would only drop a foot or so over a distance of 270 feet, the approximate distance from the roof of the Dal-Tex Building to Kennedy at frame 224 of the Zapruder film.

And that was the most it would drop. I later realized that bullet drop, as everything is relative. If a gun firing such a bullet is sighted in at 100 yards, well, that means the bullet will start out below the point of aim, then rise above it, and then drop down to hit the target at 100 yards.

But what if the rifle was sighted in at 50 yards, and the bullet wasn't fired until Kennedy was 90 yards away? How far would it drop over that extra 40 yards?

Well, a chart found on gunsmoke.com provides us the answer. The chart tracking the bullet trajectory for a subsonic .22 long rifle round fired from a rifle sighted-in at 50 yards supports that such a bullet would drop down but 5 inches below the line of sight at 90 yards.

This chart also supports Everyday Ballistics' assertion that a subsonic bullet fired at 1000 fps would suffer less wind deflection than assumed. It reflects that a 15 mph crosswind would deflect such a bullet but 2.12 inches at 90 yards. Hmmm... From this it seems clear that a well-practiced shooter firing a silenced Winchester 74 or M-16 from the Dal-Tex Building could easily have hit Kennedy, or Connally, or both.

In sum, then, my study of the evidence suggests the use of such a weapon can not be ruled out. Upon further reading about the M-16, moreover, I realized that it fired three-round bursts in its semi-automatic setting. Since the wounds to Kennedy and Connally circa frame 224 were quite possibly caused by but two bullets, I now suspect the second rifle used in the assassination was a semi-automatic weapon quite similar to the one shown above.

And this weapon left a shallow wound in soft tissue?

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

TK--

You are making reasonable statements regarding the JFKA. 

A subsonic round fired ~600-700 fps would likely penetrate a couple inches or maybe less. 

And traveled thru 90 yards of swirling wind with little drop in elevation?

”No way.”

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

If a shooter was aiming at the head at that range, and due to an undercharged round, the result was an impact a little lower, would not the difference be minimal as far as penetration? In other words, if there was an undercharged round, that caused a slight drop in elevation, would it point to that round being undercharged by only a very small degree, but not enough to make a drastic difference to penetration?

I haven’t seen anything to indicate this was possible.

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

I don't know. I've never hunted with a 30.06, that's why I'm asking.

I'm wondering if an undercharged round could have entered the back.

SSA Glen Bennett described the back shot occurring right before the head shot(s).  So an undercharged round had to travel 90 yards thru swirling wind losing little elevation.  I’ve yet to see any proof that was possible.