Cliff Varnell

Okay.  So Umbrella Man was Roy Hargraves and Dark Complected Man was Felipe Vidal Santiago (or Gordon Novel and George Joannides).

What were they doing there?  Signaling?  To whom?  The shooters?  The shooters were watching Hargraves, Santiago and Kennedy at the same time?  If they were signaling to a spotter standing next to a shooter -- what could they possibly signal that the spotter couldn't see thru binoculars?

So after the murder of a US President two of the conspirators casually took a seat on the curb where they could be photographed.  Wouldn't the perps want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP without drawing attention?

As odd as Witt's Chamberlain-umbrella-shaming story seems, the above scenario is pure bonkers.

BTW, Umbrella Man and Louis Witt had prominent noses, Hargraves did not.

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 We have some legal scholars in the house,

Cory Santos

54 minutes ago, Bill Simpich said:

Cliff, no one is discussing Rosemary Willis in any context but yourself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Willis the only witness to describe Umbrella Man's actions in any detail?

How is that not relevant to the speculation UM was Kill Team Member Roy Hargraves?

54 minutes ago, Bill Simpich said:

As politely as possible, could I ask you to start your own thread?  This may get derailed because you have your own agenda which may be quite right. 

I am trying to explore the Vidal/Hargraves possibility.  Thanks.

Bill

So what was Hargraves doing with that umbrella?  What function did he serve?

19 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Witt had the same umbrella 15 years later? 

Good chance he lost track of the DP umbrella.

19 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Wasn't the one Witt used to demonstrate at the meetings didn't match the umbrella was used in DP?

So what?

19 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

IMO Witt committed perjury and isn't the UM.

So he and Rosemary Willis were in on the plot. 

Penn Jones, too, since he was the one who tracked down the very shy Mr. Witt.

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

suspended everyone who disagreed or protested

Not everyone.  But then, they let me get away with murder in this joint.

Ron, I think it's a joke that the identity of Umbrella Man is still an issue.

Levity?  Oh no no no.  Certainly not!

What movie inspired Frank Sinatra to divorce Mia Farrow?

What movie was filmed at the same location as John Lennon's murder?

What movie was pedophile Roman Polanski's American debut?

1 hour ago, Paul Cummings said:

I agree with the title of the thread. Felipe and Hargraves.

So Willis and Witt were involved in the plot!

Willis must have coordinated her HSCA testimony with Witt.

Maybe -- just maybe -- the 10 year old Rosemary was the mastermind of the entire ambush.  Explains why she was in the DP infield running alongside the limo -- she wanted to watch her handiwork close-up.

I mean, if we're gonna indulge implied witness bashing -- may as well go all the way, right?

1 hour ago, Allen Lowe said:

I challenge you to cite one source - ANY SOURCE - who cited the Zapruder in the period between the assassination and the reveal on Geraldo, or who said it was incriminating or urgent to release it.

John Connally's analysis of the Zapruder film in the November 25, 1966 edition of LIFE Magazine -- "A Matter of Reasonable Doubt."

Reasonable doubt?  That was another Big Lie, of course.   Gaeton Fonzi pushed Arlen Specter into a nervous breakdown confronting him with the clothing evidence late June of that year.  After that there was no reasonable doubt as to the fact of conspiracy, but the forces of cover-up cleverly responded.

That LIFE Magazine edition became the template for the JFKA Critical Community which persists to this day:  micro-analyse the hell out of ancillary evidence and ignore the primary evidence of conspiracy.

1 hour ago, Bill Simpich said:

Notice the high brow of the Umbrella Man, more similar to Roy Hargraves than Louis Witt.

Rosemary Willis corroborated Witt's account of his actions.

Both "in" on the plot?

From the HSCA testimony of Louis Witt:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you saw the motorcade coming into the area? 

Mr. WITT. Well, as I recall, the motorcade had already made the turn and was coming down Elm Street going west on Elm before I became aware it was there, and it would have been from a straightline position off to my left about like this [indicating] when I saw it . 

Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you saw it approaching you? 

Mr. WITT. I think I got up and started fiddling with that umbrella trying to get it open, and at the same time I was walking forward, walking toward the street. 

/q>

From the HSCA report -- "Possible Gunman on the Grassy Knoll"

<quote on, emphasis added>

Rosemary Willis...noticed two persons who looked "conspicuous." One was a man near the curb holding an umbrella, who appeared to be more concerned with opening or closing the umbrella than dropping to the ground like everyone else at the time of the shots.

<quote off>

Free Louis Witt!

MAGAt hypocrisy in action. 

Convicted Felon Donald Trump was civilly convicted of rape. 

He was friends with Jeffrey Epstein for years until Trump's scumbaggery was too much even for Epstein. 

Traitor.

26 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

That is what is happening here Cliff it's a form of Cognitive Dissidence

You think Dave Chappelle sounds like a golf club type.

12 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

It's a Debate Forum Cliff

Convicted Felon Donald J. Trump is a traitor, MAGA cultist.  Traitors aren't worthy of debate.

We're not having a debate.  You support a treasonous Convicted Felon who performed fellatio on Vladimir in Helsinki.

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

You sound like people who wear cricket sweaters at the country club in Caddy Shack.

33 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

Can you share for the audience what a "Mark-@$$ trick" is in English?

It's a Dave Chappelle reference.  You wouldn't get it, white bread.

37 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

Well Grandpa I was just a kid when I listened to it 

You obviously didn't learn anything -- otherwise you wouldn't support a Convicted Felon Putin bootlicker.

Mark-ass trick it is!

2 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Give me your Punk Rocker Card Cliff because your status is now NARC for the Man

You don't know anything about punk rock, kid.  It's hey-day was over when you were in short pants.

2 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

JFK and Trump are both America First 

Trick-ass mark, or mark-ass trick?

The Convicted Felon is Donald Trump first.

7 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

. But they will criticize America and externalize blame to advocate for their Bernie Sanders USSA America that JFK does NOT represent. 

Koch supports a Convicted Felon  -- the one aligned with Vladimir Putin.

I've been winning debates with Pat Speer for 21 years.  It's fun!

Why would I want him silenced?

1 minute ago, Mark Ulrik said:

After silencing him first? I wish you were joking.

I didn't silence him.  I protested his silencing.

24 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

The speculative ("may well be succeeded") last lines?  Okay, although I didn't cite that passage.  In any case, what's more you evidently didn't read that -- or understand it -- either. That sentence says somebody, either the liberals or the conservatives, are going to have a made a mistake in supporting Johnson.  I think by 1968 both felt that way -- the conservatives were miffed about civil rights and the libs about VN.  So the article was off a little.  It was both, not "either."  And that's why LBJ couldn't run in 68 -- all segments of Democratic Party support were lost.  The article was essentially prescient.

https://www.politico.com/story/2010/03/johnson-meets-with-the-wise-men-march-25-1968-034945

Johnson meets with ‘The Wise Men,’ March 25, 1968

They met with LBJ after being briefed by officials at the State Department, the Pentagon and the CIA. They had been informed of a request from Gen. William Westmoreland, the top U.S. commander in Vietnam, for additional troops in the wake of perceived U.S. setbacks in the Tet Offensive.

Present at the White House meeting were Dean Acheson, George Ball, McGeorge Bundy, Clark Clifford, Arthur Dean, Douglas Dillon, Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas, Averell Harriman, Henry Cabot Lodge Jr., Robert Murphy, Cyrus Vance and Gens. Omar Bradley, Matthew Ridgway and Maxwell Taylor.

In the words of Acheson, who summed up the recommendations from 11 of the men, “we can no longer do the job we set out to do in the time we have left, and we must begin to take steps to disengage.” Murphy, Taylor and Fortas dissented.

</q>

Within days Johnson dropped out of the Prez race and appointed Averell Harriman to negotiate a peace deal.  Averell Harriman -- the guy who carries the most individual responsibility for the Vietnam War.

24 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Are we allowed to freely speculate on the moral and mental state of other members now?

Only in an effort to shield said member from accusations of lying.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

LOL

 

 

I take it that Pat thinks the autopsists got the back wound location right. That figures. He thinks the autopsists got the gaping head wound location right too.

 

Pat insists medical evidence with multiple violations of autopsy protocol are superior to medical evidence prepared according to autopsy protocol.

The autopsy evidence prepared according to proper protocol is consistent with the physical evidence (clothing holes) and the contemporaneous written notes of a half dozen witnesses in position of authority.

Improperly prepared medical evidence ain't.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I'm betting there is a lot more to come.

There is a thread about McClelland, a thread about Jenkins, and I could start a thread about the Speer smear of SSA Glen Bennett.

I have such confidence in my argument I don't have to indulge ad hominem.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

*Though, as member Cliff Varnell has indicated, it is possible that Pat is delusional. In which case he isn't aware of is lying.

 

Pat has insisted the top of JFK's back was 4 inches below his clothing collars. 

Confirmation bias is a bitch, ain't it?