Cliff Varnell
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Posts posted by Cliff Varnell
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1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:
But none of that addresses the key point which is you have a U.S. Senator making this claim. Keep your politics out of it and recognize things are changing on the assassination. People want the truth. Can they handle it?
How do we keep politics out of it?
MAGA seeks to place Trump loyalists in every civil service position, and they’re using JFK Conspiracy as a rationale.
Kash Patel as head of the CIA?
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Reminds me of the old line — “Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.”
The Trojan horse in this case is the embrace of JFKA Conspiracy by MAGA types like Ron Johnson and Tucker Carlson who hope to see every American institution brought to heel by Dictator Don.
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Hoover memo to senior staff, 12/12/63:
<quote>
I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters, not in the report because we were not able to prove it, written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship, and stating when it was all over he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief; but we do not know if the chief was Castro and cannot make an investigation because we have no intelligence operation in Cuba; that I did not put this into the report because we did not have proof of it and didn't want to put speculation in the report; that this was the reason I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man.
<quote off>
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On 12/15/2023 at 1:20 PM, Cliff Varnell said:
Weberman:
A CIA document revealed: "Siragusa was of liaison interest to various components of this Agency from 1961 to 1967, including the Behavioral Activities Branch of the Technical Services Division."
From Hank Albarelli’s A Secret Order:
<quote on, emphasis added>
[D]uring WWII George Hunter White and a number of other [Federal Bureau of Narcotics] agents assigned to the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), precursor to the CIA, worked very closely in New York City with Port Security and the Office of Naval Intelligence on what is now commonly called Operation Underworld. This was the top-secret project that involved freeing infamous gangster Charles "Lucky" Luciano from prison in return for his, and the Mafia's, assistance with security at America's ports and the Allied invasion of Italy. All the FBN agents assigned to work on Operation Underworld went on to become covert operatives of the CIA, and would become involved with Projects MK/ULTRA and MK/NAOMI.
<quote off>
From Douglas Valentine's The Strength of the Wolf:
<quote on>
[William] Harvey was so dependent on the FBN and its underworld contacts that he scribbled the words “the Magic Button” beside a reference to the Bureau in his notes.
<quote off>
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Vid battle!
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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Can some people take drugs without getting hooked? Like most people (I think) don't get addicted to alcohol... only alcoholics do. That's my understanding, anyway.
That’s my understanding as well.
It all depends on how hard the user suffers The Mores —the craving for more after the effect wears off. I think the percentage of coffee drinkers who suffer The Mores is higher than users of psychedelics.
Crack and heroin are the worst for The Mores.
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2 hours ago, Michael Crane said:
I don't know what came over me.
Skid Row just sounded good.
See and raise
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I bailed at half-time. I have a sick NBA team who need my attention.
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A.J. Weberman Nodule:
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CHARLES SIRAGUSA: THE CIA'S HITMAN
The CIA's initial efforts to form an assassination section involved Charles Siragusa. Siragusa (born October 28, 1913; died April 17, 1982, Office of Security # 41 82) was raised amid mob violence in New York City's Little Italy. He worked under ANGLETON in the OSS (March 1944 to December 1945), and then was an official of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. [Winks Cloak and Gown p363] He was sent to Italy in 1951 to neutralize "Lucky" Luciano, who was sending heroin shipments to New York. [sterling, C. Octopus p79] Charles Siragusa was attached to the U.S. Embassy, Rome, where he worked with the CIA Station. A CIA document revealed: "Siragusa was of liaison interest to various components of this Agency from 1961 to 1967, including the Behavioral Activities Branch of the Technical Services Division." [HSCA Gambino/Carpenter 2.28.78] In May 1967 Charles Siragusa supplied the CIA with biographic data that stated he had been employed by the Illinois Crime Commission since 1963. As head of the Commission, Siragusa was instrumental in solving the $4.3 million Purolator theft in 1974 by planting a snitch in the suspected burglary gang. In 1974 the name of Charles Siragusa was given to the Central Cover Staff in response to a request from an individual who might work for a pharmaceutical firm as an investigator.
In October 1977, Charles Siragusa told Senator Edward Kennedy "that he was approached by a CIA employee in 1960 or 1961 who he recalls was Mr. Vincent Thill, who sought Mr. Siragusa's assistance to recruit underworld figures for assassination purposes. Mr. Thill is alleged to have said that one million dollars would be paid for a successful assassination. Mr. Siragusa also stated that in addition to Mr. Thill, he had contact with the following former CIA employees: Sheffield Edwards, JAMES ANGLETON, John Mertz and Robert Bannerman. As related to the CIA, the context of their relationship with Mr. Siragusa was not given. The SSCIA was informed of Mr. Siragusa's allegation. Mr. William Miller, SSCIA, suggested to Commander Bernard McMahon, Executive Assistant to the Director of the CIA, and Mr. John Waller, Inspector General, that CIA investigate the allegation. The Agency has initiated an investigation; following are the results to date: (Deleted)."
CHARLES SIRAGUSA AND VINCENT THILL
Charles Siragusa told journalist Jack Anderson: "After a few minutes of chitchat, the CIA man [Vincent Thill] made this startling suggestion: that Siragusa, drawing on his underworld knowledge and contacts, recruit a crew of mafia torpedoes for standby assassination duty. They would be paid $1 million in fees and expenses for each kill. The CIA would assign the missions and underwrite the payoffs from secret funds." Siragusa, who had underworld and mafia connections because of his position with the Bureau of Narcotics, said that he refused to cooperate. Some evidence, however, indicated Charles Siragusa proposed that narcotics traffickers be utilized as assassins. On December 19, 1960, Harold Meltzer was considered as a possible CIA assassin. Meltzer was an associate of Meyer Lansky. The CIA: "Attached is a rather comprehensive six page biographical history which supplies not only all the information you requested, but many additional facts which will facilitate your evaluation of his potential. Meltzer owns and operates Fried Sportswear Company, Los Angeles, California. On August 3, 1959 he was convicted at Federal Court at Los Angeles for failure to register as a previously convicted narcotics law violator at the time of his travel abroad. He was fined $1,000 and placed on three years probation. Meltzer appeared before a Federal Grand Jury at Los Angeles on March 24, 1960, under subpoena, but invoked the Firth Amendment throughout questioning. Although he was threatened with contempt proceedings, this action never materialized. In the Spring of 1959 he furnished information to our California Office, but has not since cooperated with us. He has the background and talent for the matter we discussed but it is not known whether he would be receptive. Also attached is a copy of his FBI criminal record and an old Wanted Notice which bears a good likeness of him. I have never met Meltzer." [Los Angeles Times 5.3.78; CIA Enc. 12.1960
JAMES ANGLETON AND CHARLES SIRAGUSA
JAMES ANGLETON was interviewed on October 13, 1977, regarding his relationship with Charles Siragusa: "He knows Siragusa from World War II days. Following the war, during the 1950's, Mr. Siragusa was assigned to Rome as the U.S. representative on narcotics matters for Western Europe. ANGLETON had several official contacts with him but none since. Mr. ANGLETON states he was never associated with assassination plotting."
CHARLES SIRAGUSA AND JOHN MERTZ
When CI Director JAMES ANGLETON wanted his own Counter-Intelligence shop in Vietnam he ordered former Pretoria Chief of Station, John Mertz, to set one up. John Mertz told this researcher: "During World War II when ANGLETON was in Italy working for Allen Dulles he made an arrangement where he ran a Counter-Intelligence Unit in Italy. These men were in uniform, and did not report to the military. That was a peculiar situation in Italy for a short period of time. In July 1965 ANGLETON got the idea that he could do the same in Vietnam. They knew at that time that the American forces were thoroughly penetrated by the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong. He sent me over to talk to General Joseph A. McChristian. He was top intelligence officer in Vietnam. [McChristian was General Westmoreland's intelligence chief from 1965 to 1967.] He later became DIA Chief, when he came back to the States. McChristian sent me over to confer with him to see if it would be possible for the Agency to set up a Counter-intelligence Unit in uniform, not reporting to the military. McChristian kicked me out the country. He said, 'No way, get the hell out of here. Tell ANGLETON, no.' Our Chief of Station was Gordon L. Jorgensen. I came back and made a report to ANGLETON. He sent a couple a guys over there and they got kicked out. [Gordon Jorgensen was succeeded as Chief of Station of Saigon by John Limond Hart.] That's as far as that went. I went to Africa a year and a half after that."
Mr. John Mertz was interviewed at his retirement home in Florida on October 6, 1977 in regard to Charles Siragusa's allegations. "Mr. Mertz related the following regarding his contacts with Mr. Siragusa. In 1960 or 1961, three CIA employees were arrested in Havana, Cuba, while engaged in an intelligence audio operation directed at a third country. They were tried, convicted and sentenced to ten years in prison. Their CIA affiliation was not revealed. Mr. Mertz was tasked with devising a means to free the prisoners. Mr. ANGLETON was Siragusa's OSS Supervisor in Italy during World War II, and suggested to Mr. Mertz that he contact Siragusa...Mr. Mertz states he was never associated with assassination plotting nor did he deal with Mr. Siragusa on any matters other than those discussed above...Mertz says he was never associated with assassination plotting."
CHARLES SIRAGUSA AND ROBERT BANNERMAN
Robert Bannerman, who was Deputy Director, Office of Security, during the early 1960's, and later the Director of the Office of Security "remembers Siragusa as a Office of Security covert contact/informer. He says that when an Office of Security investigation turned up information related to narcotics, Siragusa might be contacted to see if he could provide assistance. Bannerman says he is not aware of any other contacts with Siragusa nor was he involved in any assassination plotting. He says he now knows that Sheffield Edwards was involved in Castro assassination plotting, but was not aware of it at the time." [CIA OGC 77-6457 10.11.77Robert S. Young]
The Office of the Inspector General of the CIA determined that there was no basis for Siragusa's allegations. William K. Harvey took over the assassination project from Charles Siragusa. Notes on ZR/RIFLE stated: "Maximum security. Kubark [CIA Station] only. e.g. What does Siragusa now know?"
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6 hours ago, Cory Santos said:
Yesterdays Raiders game was awesome!
Were you there?
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6 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:
To be clear, I am *not* saying guys like Harriman and Bundy weren't involved in some aspects of the murder and coverup. I am saying they were not voices independent of Johnson, directing things instead of Johnson. I am saying the obvious--that these guys had no ability to deliver the policy changes the killers wanted that were the reasons for the murder in the first place. Only Johnson did.
Johnson meets with ‘The Wise Men,’ March 25, 1968
https://www.politico.com/story/2010/03/johnson-meets-with-the-wise-men-march-25-1968-034945
<quote on>
On this day in 1968, as pessimism over U.S. prospects in Vietnam deepened, President Lyndon B. Johnson met with 14 informal advisers. In 1945, some of them had forged a bipartisan foreign policy based on containing the Soviet Union. They went on to craft key institutions like NATO, the World Bank and the Marshall Plan. They were known, collectively, as “The Wise Men.”
They met with LBJ after being briefed by officials at the State Department, the Pentagon and the CIA. They had been informed of a request from Gen. William Westmoreland, the top U.S. commander in Vietnam, for additional troops in the wake of perceived U.S. setbacks in the Tet Offensive.
Present at the White House meeting were Dean Acheson, George Ball, McGeorge Bundy, Clark Clifford, Arthur Dean, Douglas Dillon, Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas, Averell Harriman, Henry Cabot Lodge Jr., Robert Murphy, Cyrus Vance and Gens. Omar Bradley, Matthew Ridgway and Maxwell Taylor.
In the words of Acheson, who summed up the recommendations from 11 of the men, “we can no longer do the job we set out to do in the time we have left, and we must begin to take steps to disengage.” Murphy, Taylor and Fortas dissented.
That was a change from Johnson’s first series of such meetings, on Nov. 1-2, 1967. Then, the Wise Men had unanimously opposed leaving Vietnam. “Public discontent with the war is now wide and deep,” Bundy had said, but he told Johnson to “stay the course.” </q>
In early November, 1967 the Wise Men told LBJ to “stay the course.” He followed their orders. On March 25, ‘68 they told him he needed to find a way out of Vietnam. 6 days later he announced he wasn’t running for re-election. On May 10 the US began negotiations with No. Vietnam.
Who led these talks? Averell Harriman.
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R.O.: As if Johnson needed to be told by Harriman that the State Dept opposed linking Oswald to the Soviets before he would reject the idea. It's clear Johnson himself wanted no part of a confrontation with the Soviets that would blow up the presidency he had long sought. </q>
Whether Johnson needed to be told or not, he was told.
Max Holland's The Assassination Tapes, pg 57:
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At 6:55 p.m. Johnson has a ten minute meeting with Senator J. William Fulbright and diplomat W. Averell Harriman to discuss possible foreign involvement in the assassination, especially in light of the two-and-a-half-year sojourn of Lee Harvey Oswald [in Russia]...Harriman, a U.S. ambassador to Moscow during WWII, is an experienced interpreter of Soviet machinations and offers the president the unanimous view of the U.S. government's top Kremlinologists. None of them believe the Soviets have a hand in the assassination, despite the Oswald association. </q>
The plot I’m looking at was designed to put the Soviets on the defensive while the USA, in the words of Richard Helms, “bombed Cuba back to the Stone Age.”
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5 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:
My earliest memory of Harriman was when, as a patrician posing as a regular guy, he ran for the Democratic nomination for president in 1952. And lost out to Stevenson.
A patrician trying to be a regular guy. A little light in the loafers, right?
Let’s go back 25 years, to the late ‘20s. Banker Harriman helped the Soviet Union resuscitate it’s oil and manganese industries.
In the 30’s the Union Banking Corporation — a subsidiary of Brown Brothers Harriman — financed 45% of all raw material purchases by the 3rd Reich. Soviet manganese went to Germany to make the steel Hitler used to build a war machine he hoped would seize Soviet oil fields.
In the lead up to WW2 Harriman was the #1 war hawk in the Roosevelt administration. He was put in charge of the Lend-Lease program providing aid to Britain and the Soviet Union. He was Churchill’s favorite Yank.
Averell Harriman was arguably the one individual most responsible for WW2.
After the war Truman instituted the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe.
Who was tapped to administer the Marshall Plan?
That lightweight, Averell Harriman.
5 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:I'm familiar with some his behind the scenes activities after that.
On September 15, 1959, Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev landed in Washington DC on the first stop of a two week tour
of the States.The next day he showed up at W. Averell Harriman's pad in Manhattan.
From Spanning the Century The Life of W. Averell Harriman, by Rudy Abramson, pg. 575
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In his second-floor drawing room, Harriman gathered leaders from mining, manufacturing, oil, chemicals, banking,
and insurance industries, including John D. Rockefeller III; General David Sarnoff, chairman of RCA; Frank Pace,
chairman of General Dynamics Corporation; W. Alton Jones, chairman of Cities Service Corporation; and John J. McCloy,
chairman of Chase Manhattan Bank. By his estimate, scribbled on a yellow legal pad before Khrushchev arrived, they
represented assets of some $38 billion. Among them, as witnesses to history, were a few men of ordinary means,
former ambassadors, educators, and, notably, Rockefeller Foundation president Dean Rusk, and Harvard economist
John Kenneth Galbraith, the latter having invited himself as a "representative of the proletariat."
Surround by Picassos and Derains, their voices muffled by Persian carpets, the capitalist Titans greeted the Communist
chieftain one by one, then sat in a semi-circle savoring caviar and sipping champagne and New York wine as Averell
conducted his exposition of capitalism, war profits, and American politics. No one present, nor any of their friends,
he and the others assured the guest of honor, favored world tensions. The assembled war profiteers, said the host, were men who'd champion disarmament the moment it became safe for the United States. There was not a hint, however, that
mingling with the millionaires did anything except reinforce Khrushchev's belief that he was then in the presence of the
men who controlled America far more than Eisenhower and the members of Congress he had met in Washington.
One testimonial to free enterprise followed another. And when the Soviet leader reasserted his stubborn belief that the
men present composed the country's ruling circle, Galbraith later tattled, "Somebody demurred, but in perfunctory fashion."
After it was over, Harriman insisted that the Soviet leader had gained insights of "real importance." <quote off> -
Joseph Trento, The Secret History of the CIA, pgs 334-5
<quote on emphasis added>
Who changed the coup [overthrow of Ngo Brothers in South Vietnam 11/01/63] into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”
Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”
The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”
At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Sagon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.
According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.
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1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:
I don't understand the Jew and WASP bit, Cliff, other than as a tortured attempt to tie Harriman and Bundy together as significant factors in the murder. I don't think they were. Bit players perhaps.
The rest of that is Salandria on the money.
The actions of Harriman and Bundy tie together as significant factors in the murder. I’m just demonstrating Salandria’s prescience.
Are you familiar with the career of Averell Harriman, or the sway he wielded over SE Asia policy?
Earlier in their careers the Dulles brothers were Harriman employees. I doubt that ever changed.
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1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:
The call came from the WH situation room (not apparently from Bundy himself who was running the place at the time).
Not from Bundy? Where do you get that idea?
The President Has Been Shot, Charles Roberts (p. 141) A reporter for Newsweek, Roberts was on AFI and saw McGeorge Bundy at Andrews Air Force Base, where Air Force One landed.
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I remember looking at (McGeorge) Bundy because I was wondering if he had any word of what had happened in the world while we were in transit, whether this assassination was part of a plot. And he told me later that what he reported to the president during that flight back was that the whole world was stunned, but there was no evidence of a conspiracy at all.
<quote off>1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:Since it came so soon after the murder and contained assertions the caller could not have verified beforehand, it must have been planned ahead of time by the killers.
Do I know the specific person who ordered the call? No. Is that important? I don't think so.
The last thing we want to do is follow a lead...
1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:Whoever it was, he was a planner or someone representing them, and carrying out the coverup plan they had devised.
An aside to Cliff. Salandria explained what he thought was the motive for call as part of the coverup.
He also cited Jim Bishop as the basis for his assertion McGeorge Bundy made the call.
The Tale Told by Two Tapes by Vincent Salandria
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[National Security Adviser] McGeorge Bundy was in charge of the [White House] Situation Room and was spending that fateful afternoon receiving phone calls from President Johnson, who was calling from Air Force One when the lone-assassin myth was prematurely given birth. (Bishop, Jim, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, New York & Funk Wagnalls, 1968, p. 154) McGeorge Bundy as the quintessential WASP establishmentarian did not take his orders from the Mafia and/or renegade elements.
<quote off>1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:It was to convey to those coming back from Dallas, maybe particularly the Kennedy aides, that no matter what you think you saw, we have officially solved the murder. Don't interfere.
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Vincent Salandria: "Notes on Lunch with Arlen Specter on January 4, 2012"
<quote on>
I explained [to Specter] that the day after the Kennedy assassination I met with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman. We decided that if Oswald was the killer, and if the U.S. government were innocent of any complicity in the assassination, Oswald would live through the weekend. But if he was killed, then we would know that the assassination was a consequence of a high level U.S. government plot.
Harold Feldman and I also concluded that if Oswald was killed by a Jew, it would indicate a high level WASP plot. We further decided that the killing of Oswald would signal that no government investigation could upturn the truth. In that event we as private citizens would have to investigate the assassination to arrive at the historical truth.
<quote off>
Jack Ruby was Jewish.
In 1963 Averell Harriman (Skull & Bones 1913) and McGeorge Bundy (Skull & Bones 1940) were the top two WASPs in the US government.
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3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
The only time Roger said anything about Harriman is when he disagreed with your assessment that the idea of there being no Soviet involvement originated with him.
You can read it yourself if you wish, here:
<quote>
SL: The information back to Air Force 1 saying that Oswald was the lone murderer probably originated from whoever consulted Harriman.RO: Nah. McGeorge Bundy was running the WH situation room that sent the message. He had already rewritten NSM 263 to allow for escalation in Vietnam that Johnson signed one day after Kennedy was buried. Coming so soon after the murder with such a definitive statement of guilt means it was clearly planned beforehand by the killers.</q>Seems to me Roger was taking issue with an implication someone other than Bundy consulted Harriman.That’s how I took it.</quote on>RO: There was a faction that wanted Oswald linked to the Cubans and Soviets. But Johnson said no.</q>Johnson said no after he was informed by Harriman that Foggy Bottom opposed such a claim.<ibid>Either before the murder as they were drawing up the final plan and coverup, or shortly after the murder. Some Cubans went ahead anyway to tie Oswald to Castro, but that was swiftly snuffed out. As president Johnson wanted no part of a conflict with the SU.</q>The United States enjoyed nuclear dominance until the USSR reached parity in ‘65 (see Garett Porter’s The Perils of Dominance.). Did Johnson fear Khrushchev starting a war the Soviets couldn’t win if the US invaded Cuba in retaliation for the JFKA?<ibid>He had lusted after the presidency too long to see it go up in flames with a war with them.</q>The USSR would risk annihilation over Cuba? -
1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Cliff,
(EDIT: I wrote the following while Cliff was posting the previous post.)
In his OP, Roger Odisio said the following:
The call from the White House situation room telling those coming back to DC that the murderer had already been arrested and he did it alone. Absolute proof that the preplanned cover up was off and running. The Situation Room was run at the time by McGeorge Bundy, the guy who had already redrafted NSM 263 as 273 that Johnson would sign the day after JFK was buried.
(I had no idea that Washington's lone-nut decision had already been made by then.)
When I read that, I recalled what you have said before about Averil Harriman. I replied:
Early indications shortly after the assassination were that the assassination was a Cuban/Russian plot.
As Cliff Varnell likes to point out, this possibility was quickly discounted by Averell Harriman, who said that all the Soviet experts agreed that the Russians weren't involved in the plot. Which wasn't true... the Soviet experts had not been consulted. ...
The information back to Air Force 1 saying that Oswald was the lone murderer probably originated from whoever consulted Harriman.
Roger disagreed with that and said that the idea that loner Oswald was to blame, and not the Soviets, came from the plotters, not Harriman, and were relayed to Air Force One by McGeorge Bundy. Roger said that this was the beginning of the plotter-planned cover up.
Where did Roger say anything about Harriman?
1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:Here are my questions for you:
- Do you believe that Harriman's comments about the Kremlinologists came early enough that they influenced what Bundy relayed to Air Force One on their flight back to DC (about Oswald being the lone killer)?
I think it’s reasonable to speculate that Harriman told his little Skull & Bones brother Bundy to push the Lone Nut scenario once the designated Commie Patsy escaped death.
1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:- Regarding the topic of this post, how does your belief differ from Roger's? (It appears that the primary difference is that you belief Harriman was in on the plot and whereas Roger doesn't. Though he might believe Bundy was.)
Someone Would Have Talked, Larry Hancock, pg 401-2:
<quote on, emphasis added>
1:15 PM on November 22, when the President was known to be dead, Malcolm Kilduff approached Johnson about making a statement. Johnson’s response was, “No. Wait. We don’t know whether it’s a Communist conspiracy or not. Are they prepared to get me out of here?” Johnson’s first concern after the shooting appears to be conspiracy. While still at Parkland both S.A. Youngblood and S. A. Roberts approached Johnson with similar concerns and strongly advised him to get out of Dallas and get airborne as quickly as possible...
Despite his own remark and those of the Secret Service, Johnson appeared reluctant to leave Parkland. </q>
He was waiting for the outcome with the Patsy.
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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Bundy didn't consult Harriman?
We don’t have direct evidence of it, but it’s a reasonable assumption. I understood your comment — “Whoever consulted Harriman” — as a reference to someone other than Bundy.
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On 12/9/2023 at 2:27 PM, Sandy Larsen said:
Early indications shortly after the assassination were that the assassination was a Cuban/Russian plot.
As Cliff Varnell likes to point out, this possibility was quickly discounted out by Averell Harriman, who said that all the Soviet experts all agreed that the Russians weren't involved in the plot. Which wasn't true... the Soviet experts had not been asked.
It is because of this that Cliff believes that Harriman was behind the assassination plot.
Not just “because of this.” Harriman made SE Asia his bailiwick as soon as Kennedy hired him in early ‘61. Harriman side-stepped JFK to green-light the overthrow of Diem. After Diem’s murder, JFK moved Harriman to Latin American affairs. The murder of JFK suited Harriman’s goals in SE Asia.
On 12/9/2023 at 2:27 PM, Sandy Larsen said:But IMO, Harriman simply couldn't believe that the Russians would make such a dangerous move, and decided himself to proclaim so, adding that other experts agreed with him just to give it some weight. Making such a bold move is in character for Harriman.
It would have been “in character” for an innocent Harriman to consider the possibility a rogue Soviet faction pulled off the hit, and “in character” to consult others.
The murder occurred less than 6 hours earlier. A little soon to draw conclusions, ain’t it?
On 12/9/2023 at 2:27 PM, Sandy Larsen said:The information back to Air Force 1 saying that Oswald was the lone murderer probably originated from whoever consulted Harriman.
There’s no evidence anyone consulted Harriman. Bundy and Harriman were Skull & Bones brothers. The information back to AF1 probably resulted from Harriman consulting Bundy.
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1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:
BB season is over, it'll be a while before you can payoff that bet. I saw the Vikings - Raiders score, and the one highlight (the FG). Pretty underwhelming.
3 - 0 NFL games are rare in the modern era.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/game_scores_find.cgi?pts_win=3&pts_lose=0
Senator says no way it wasn’t a conspiracy.
in Political Discussions
Posted
Ron Johnson is MAGA. I don’t put all Republicans under that umbrella.
Merry Christmas, Cory.