Cliff Varnell

Pet theorists smear many witnesses when they claim the throat wound was an exit.

Denny Zartman has done excellent work on this:

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7 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Cliff V., I would prefer you refer to my holding a reconstruction of an exit on the throat wound, which is the view of probably 95% of persons who study the JFK assassination, as my "theory" rather than "pet theory", which comes across as a putdown. 

It is a putdown. Absolutely! I can barely contain my contempt!

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On the cause of the subcutaneous or interstitial air overlying C7 and T1, this from the Mayo Clinic seems to suggest the tracheotomy done on JFK as the likely cause of that, https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/tracheostomy/about/pac-20384673:

Tracheostomy (tray-key-OS-tuh-me) is a hole that surgeons make through the front of the neck and into the windpipe (trachea). A tracheostomy tube is placed into the hole to keep it open for breathing. The term for the surgical procedure to create this opening is tracheotomy.

[...]

 

Tracheostomies are generally safe, but they do have risks. Some complications are particularly likely during or shortly after surgery. The risk of such problems greatly increases when the tracheotomy is performed as an emergency procedure. 

Immediate complications include:

• Bleeding

• Damage to the trachea, thyroid gland or nerves in the neck

• Misplacement or displacement of the tracheostomy tube

• Air trapped in tissue under the skin of the neck (subcutaneous emphysema), which can cause breathing problems and damage to the trachea or food pipe (esophagus)

• Buildup of air between the chest wall and lungs (pneumothorax), which causes pain, breathing problems or lung collapse

• A collection of blood (hematoma), which may form in the neck and compress the trachea, causing breathing problems

The trachea is in the front of the neck. The transverse process is at the back of the neck.

You have a penchant for making things up.

95% of JFK students believe in a throat exit?

Out of which orifice do you pull this stuff?

2 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

Kirk - what credibility do you have after falsely claiming to have attended the TAMI Show in person?

He didn't.  He said he went to a matinee.  That means an early showing of a movie since the TAMI Show only had one performance.

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Cliff I suggested: "It was not that the bullet hit bone at T1, but it was the direct effect of the impact of the Z313 bullet causing violent stress and force sideways that caused it."

To which you gave the nuanced response:

I don't know about that... you might want to reconsider the dogmatism.

<sigh> Why did you edit my response?

Read the HSCA analysis. Interstitial air = air pocket.

Evaluation of the post-autopsy film shows that there is subcutaneous or interstitial air overlying C7 and T1. The same disruption of T1 right transverse process is still present.

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• Transverse process fracture: This type of fracture is relatively common. It happens when the spine rotates or bends sideways. These fractures are not always serious.

In other words, this is how approximately 100% of such transverse process fractures happen.

Where does it say this is accompanied by an air pocket overlaying two transverse processes?

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Was there a time in the shooting when JFK's spine "rotates or bends sideways" violently? Yes. Take a look at the head shot and see for yourself. Its visual, and it is just obvious that's what probably did it. 

 

 

It’s quite obvious you’re married to your pet theory.

On 7/12/2020 at 10:16 AM, Anthony Mugan said:

Hi
 

I shall probably not be popular with this, but...One of the things that was quite striking when I first began to study this subject was how none of the theories presented up to that point in time (more than 10 years ago now) worked fully across the full range of data.

Not true.  The autopsists’ speculation that JFK was hit in the back with a high tech round which dissolved fits the verified data.

Lots of folks are in denial about this given their biases against cartoons.

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Cliff, forget the role of JFK's corset or back brace in that T1 transverse process fracture. A gunshot directly accounts for it--the head shot at Z313 from a sidewards trajectory hitting JFK's head with great force. Zapruder clearly shows JFK's head and neck knocked violently leftward and backward. The stress of that force, with focus here on the sideways component of that violent force (the cause of so many transverse process fractures), then causes that fracture in JFK (the way identical fractures of the T1 transverse process invariably happen). It was not that the bullet hit bone at T1, but it was the direct effect of the impact of the Z313 bullet causing violent stress and force sideways that caused it.

And it left an air-pocket over-laying the right C7/T1 transverse processes?

Impossible!

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

Can that be excluded as a reasonable causative explanation for that damage: in which it was a hit with a bullet that caused it, but the bullet did not strike or make physical contact with bone at T1 directly, and the bullet that caused that fracture was the one of Z313? 

Yes, your pet theory is absolute rubbish.

Back in 2017 I reacted to the hung jury CAPA Mock Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald with deep dismay.  The first reports said the Oswald defense was the acoustics and the Neutron Activation Analysis of bullet fragments and paraffin wax.

The acoustics and the NAA — two of the more pernicious rabbit holes.  “Ah hell, where’s CE-399?” I wondered.  Then I learned the provenance of the Magic Bullet was indeed part of the defense.  “Ah hell,” I further wondered, “Where’s the head wound/s?”  And right on cue I found Jim DiEugenio on Deep Politics Forum raving about what a great job Mark Chesser did with the head wound/s at the Mock Trial.

The grand slam of Rabbit Holes!

Nothing like taking an open-and-shut cold case conspiracy and making it a debate over evidence which takes an advanced degree to verify!

No wonder the conspiracy factualist view loses support with younger folks.

1 minute ago, Micah Mileto said:

At this point, why not? Has anybody done an essay long enough to encapsulate all possible knowledge and theories regarding the gurney andgurney bullet?

Since JFK had a shallow wound in the soft tissue between his 3rd Thoracic Vertebrae and the upper margin of his right scapula, we can safely rule out a 6.5mm FMJ round.

Other than a study of the FBI role in the cover-up, CE-399 is at best useless and at worse an energy wasting distraction.

12 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Thank you for a picture I've never seen before.  Maybe the closest  to the position of when he was shot ever other than arms raised, feet/knees down.   Thought provoking.

Magic Corset Theories?

That would have caused a twist at T1??

Better chance for the cream cheese moon scenario...

Thanks, Joe!

You really need to get off the “throat exit” bit.

Otherwise, nothing personal here, good luck in your studies.

8 hours ago, Anthony Mugan said:

Hi
 

I shall probably not be popular with this, but...

One of the things that was quite striking when I first began to study this subject was how none of the theories presented up to that point in time (more than 10 years ago now) worked fully across the full range of data.

That’s because you give weight to improperly produced data.  If we approach the murder of JFK like any homicide case we’d only weigh properly produced medical evidence.

The properly produced evidence includes the bullet holes in the clothes (for which there is a chain of possession), the contemporaneous written reports of witnesses in positions of authority (including the verified Death Certificate and the properly filled out portions of the autopsy face sheet), and the cervical x-ray (authenticated by Dr. David Mantik.)

Both the final autopsy report and the autopsy photos were not prepared according to autopsy protocol.

8 hours ago, Anthony Mugan said:

Any new proposal needs to build on that work and incorporate it in the way in physics new theories build on GR and QED which in turn build on and incorporates classical physics within themselves.

As a detail CE399 can’t have hit anything very hard at all.

The JFK research community has a complexity fetish.  Simple facts are eschewed to indulge junk evidence like the acoustics.

29 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Cliff V., your response to Micah (whom I do not know), also earlier to me, comes across as uncivil, which can have the effect of shutting down discussion. I ask you to be civil when expressing disagreement.

I strongly suggest you put me on ignore.

I find that ridicule is the only intellectually honest response to Lone Nut talking points like the throat wound was an exit. Once the facts have been laid out pet theories need to die, as painful as that may be.

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Now on your interesting point regarding the T1 transverse process fracture as an argument for a front entry of the throat wound, I confess I did not know what "transverse process" was until reading your use of the term and looking it up. Then I did some more digging to find what most commonly causes fractures of that series of wingtip extensions from the spinal cord, and found centrally that twisting, combined with trauma, is almost always involved. I assume you already know this, but anyway. With twisting of the upper body a direct causative factor in most cases of fractures of this bone, I do not see that it is making things up to apply this reality in the overwhelming number of other cases of transverse process fractures to ask if some form applies in the case of JFK.

You cited a “cervical brace” — just making stuff up.  Do better homework and you won’t be the butt of ridicule.

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But there is another consideration, and that is your mention that the fracture was actually "hairline" (though I do not see the word "hairline" in the parts of the HSCA report you quote). If it was hairline, that is much less, and in my checking on this--no doubt you already know this, but anyway--that is most commonly caused by repetitive stress, then at a critical point "one more" stress causes a beginning of a slight fracture, the hairline fracture. I do not see that it is out of bounds to ask whether the violent twisting that occurred at Z313 when JFK was hit with the head shot--restrained from the cervical brace (true it is lower on his trunk,

Enough!  No, I have no respect for your views whatsoever.  The brace was a soft type wrapped around his waist.

I suggest you stop being such a sloppy student of the case.

“It isn’t personal, Sonny.  It’s strictly business.”

2 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

I have wondered if the shooting could have been accomplished by one person shooting from behind, but with their gun chamber alternating between low and high velocity rounds.

I have similarly wondered if the moon was made of cream cheese...

2 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

When I was looking at sources on this alledged fracture, I found one that said this fracture appeared on the PRE-mortem x-rays.

Pre-autopsy x-rays, not pre-mortem.

2 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

Are we sure that this artifact exists, and it is post-mortem?

From the HSCA report:

Evaluation of the pre-autopsy film shows that there is some subcutaneous or interstitial air overlying the right C7 and T1 transverse processes. There is disruption of the integrity of the transverse process of T1, which, in comparison with its mate on the opposite side and also with the previously taken film, mentioned above, indicates that there has been a fracture in that area. There is some soft tissue density overlying the apex of the right lung which may be hematoma in that region or other soft tissue swelling.

Evaluation of the post-autopsy film shows that there is subcutaneous or interstitial air overlying C7 and T1. The same disruption of T1 right transverse process is still present.

On the film of the right side, taken post-autopsy, there are two small metallic densities in the region of the C7 right transverse process. These densities are felt to be artifact, partly because of their marked density, because there is a similar artifact overlying the body of C7, and because these metallic-like densities were not present on the previous, pre-autopsy film. Therefore, I assume that these are screen artifacts from debris present in the cassette at the time that this film was exposed. 

27 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Cliff V., I don't know if it should be assumed that the hairline fracture of the T1 transverse process of JFK would be caused by the bone being struck by a bullet inside the body. From what I read in checking on this, fractures of the transverse process are almost always caused by forceful violent twisting of the body, as in auto accidents.

Like the violent auto crash that killed JFK in Dealey Plaza??

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This medical study analyzing transverse process fractures of IED blast victims of armed forces personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan, https://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Fulltext/2018/07002/Analysis_of_isolated_transverse_process_fractures.19.aspx, says transverse fractures in persons seated in automobiles "are associated with excessive lateral movement of the occupant and are typically observed in side and multiple impacts. They are common at either C7 or T1, which is thought to be due to the interaction with the shoulder belt causing oblique hypeflexion."

Reading this I think of JFK's cervical brace which made him unable to move.

You mean the “cervical brace” around his waist?

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At Z313 when JFK was hit with the massive blow of that head shot from the side, perhaps that is when that hairline fracture occurred--from the violent twisting in the area of JFK's neck combined with the cervical brace preventing his whole body from moving in response to the external shock of the hit which had violent sidewards force. Also, that the fracture at JFK's T1 was hairline seems less severe than a full break and seems to argue more strongly for some twisting or muscle stress overload as causing that hairline fracture, probably occurring at Z313 at the time of that head shot, comparable to a hairline fracture in a sprained ankle is caused by twisting the wrong way. So unless some qualified medical opinion says otherwise, from what I read I don't think the bullet of the throat wound did the hairline fracture at the T1 transverse process, despite being in physical proximity. 

Greg, I strongly suggest you drop your pet theories and study the evidence more.

At this point all you’re doing is making stuff up.  Haven’t we had enough of that already?

You’re ignoring the hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process, which could only have been caused by a front shot to the throat.

There was no exit of the throat shot because either the round was removed prior to the autopsy or, as per the autopsists’ speculation, JFK was hit with a high tech round that dissolved.

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

As the plague news and responses to it are depressing I was watching some of the better performances from Willie's Picnic wile I can.  The stream subscription expires Saturday.

I remembered one performance but not hearing or seeing the name of the artist.  Found the performance again, still no name.  Looked at a list of performers and thought I don't remember hearing anything by John Doe.  He performed in the saloon on acoustic guitar with the house band, Charlie Sexton on electric guitar, drummer, bass and a Steel guitar.  Not for real long but they jammed.  The song was Burning House of Love, it involves revenge or maybe spite and arson. Wish I could link the picnic version.  At least 3-4 versions on utube.  This is the closest to his picnic performance, with no backup at SXSW three years ago.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=john+doe+burning+house+of+love&&view=detail&mid=570766303E7C2DFA1AC7570766303E7C2DFA1AC7&&FORM=VDRVSR

John Doe is the bass player/vocalist in the seminal LA punk band — X.

My favorite Doe-on-vocals song:

3 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I was spelling it the way the prez pronounces it, sarcastically.

I realize it's not about violence but that's the way it's framed by the right, or the prez at least.

That IS how it’s pronounced, Ron.

You can pronounce “anti” two ways — antee or antie.

I pronounce it antee. An-TEE-fa. 
 

OG Antifa outta the U.K.

11 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

So if I hang this on my office door at work I guess I'll be labeled anteafa.  Maybe persecuted.  Promoting a political agenda there, even if it is about not letting Our Democracy to be subjected to fascism, could be a firing offense.  Better skip that idea.  Gotta tow the mark and walk the line if there's still any hope of hanging on until retirement.  

Spelled “antifa.”

Not about violence.

Spread the word.

The Dead Kennedys came out of the late 70’s political punk scene in San Francisco (pre-hardcore):

1 hour ago, Pamela Brown said:

For John Butler:  there were no 'massive steel columns' in WTCI and 2.  The buildings had load-bearing walls. There were girders only in the central core.  The widebody 767's, loaded with 20K gallons of fuel, left gaping holes, stories high, in the external structure, which violated the integrity of the walls, and, as a result, the buildings pancaked.

Pancaked! Please show me the photos of a stack of pancakes. 94 floors, or so.   TIA...

Race Riot (DOA)

Race riot, don't buy it
KKK, we're going to fry it
Race riot, don't buy it
We don't want that c-r-a-p
Race riot, don't buy it
We don't want that c-r-a-p
Pigs in the street
With their clubs makes no sense
Don't you buy it?
Race riot, don't buy it
We don't want that c-r-a-p
Race riot, don't buy it
Race riot, no way
It's going to be a class war
Race riot, no, no, no, no

Born To Die (MDC)

No war, no KKK, no fascist USA
No war, no KKK, no fascist USA

I'm born to die
I'm born to fry
My life in a cage
Show my outrage
I'm misunderstood
I did what I could
I made my try
I was born to die

Goin' home
My mind is blown
I spilled my race
I found my case
I'm shot down on a fence
I'm dead in self defense
I live in a world of hate
With no regret a Nazi state
A racist dream, a world of hate
With no regret a Nazi state

No war, no KKK, no fascist USA
No war, no KKK, no fascist USA