Kathleen Collins

I am still looking for a photo of Bobby Kennedy with Ethel and some of their kids, attending St. Mary's Church in Gilroy CA for Mass. The photo was taken at 9:30 am, Aug. 5, 1962. I have already been in touch with the newspaper there and the church. They don't have the picture. I believe I saw it in a book in a bookstore many years ago. If someone can post it or tell me where it is, I'd appreciate it. Would Mary Ferrell's site have it?

Kathy Collins

VICTOR DE MARIO

James Richards: Do you have a photo of Victor De Mario, if he's supposed to look like Clay Shaw?

Kathy

I never said I thought anyone ran to hide in the pullman cars...just that it would be very convenient. Although there is no evidence, if the porter was 'in' on things, he could just tell the police 'no one came here' and make an end of it. Things could also be hidden on the underside of the cars, or the cars just used to visually mask things. I'm very suspicious of the cars and trunks, and the fact that each and every car was not searched along with its trunk and engine is just the way everything went in Dallas.....working very hard NOT to find out what really happened!! On that they did a great job.

Is this the train where they found the 3 tramps? Could the assassins have run to the trains and jump on at one side where the white-shirted man stood, then exit the other side to whatever was behind the train?

Kathy

The investigation by Ashton Gray, among others, of possible sinister activities undertaken by medical personnel and/or others at Parkland Hospital relative to the coup d'grace hypothesis represents an invaluable and long-overdue evolution of an earlier focus on the general subject of, well, medical malpractice in the JFK assassination.

As originally reported by Brad Parker some 11 years ago:

The first Dallas meeting of Dealey Plaza UK was held on Sunday, November 24, 1996 at the Dallas Grand Hotel. At 1:30 pm, Chairman Richard Livingstone called the meeting to order, adding that he hopes to have further meetings in Dallas.

Four speakers addressed the meeting. Each had spoken at the JFK-Lancer conference in the preceding days, but selected a different topic for this day.

[George Michael] Evica cited the discrepancy in the accounts of the chest tube incisions made in Dallas. According to Evica, the autopsy personnel did not notice the incisions or disruption to the interior chest wall caused by the trocars to assist in the introduction of the tubes. He determined that four possibilities for the inconsistencies exist:

1. The Dallas doctors lied..."which is unlikely."

2. The Dallas doctors introduced superficial incisions after death to make it appear as though they had implemented the chest drainage tubes..."which is unlikely."

3. The autopsy doctors lied.

4. Both the Dallas and Bethesda doctors were truthful, indicating the presence of a second body at the autopsy.

George Michael presented an updated chest wounds essay at the March, 2004 DPUK meeting in England.

So!

(sorry)

Yet more conflicting medical evidence in a case redolent of such machinations. The doppelganger phenomenon again is noted.

If a copy of Evica's presentation exists in the DPUK library, would someone kindly post it here? At the present time, George Michael cannot access his archives.

Charles

I think, perhaps, there should be a #5 in the list above.

5. Between Parkland and the crowded autopsy room someone may have done things to the body [brain, skull, neck, maybe more]. There is quite a bit of evidence this occurred for the brain and some changes to the skull....so perhaps a few things more?

Like "Surgery" to the right side of the President's head.

Kathy

Now how could I possibly have known all that info about or any of that info about you including that as

a kid you were star struck? Wow.

Perhaps you were on some sort of free form associative, paranoid delusional inner directed rant? Or something else.

It is NOT all about YOU... Kathy. And all because I substituted a K for a C? Wow. Heavvvy...

Listen, don't mention my name again. Use the name of the person you are referring to. There are people who have in the past on JFK websites, known things I never told them about myself, so I'm a bit reactionary. I've also had some nasty comments written on my blog from someone who knows personal things about me. I thought you were continuing the tradition.

That's it, Bub.

Kathy Collins

Oh never mind.

Good idea. Rest well.

Kathy

Kathy, the person referred to above as Chatty Cathy is NOT YOU but someone else who wrote

a large puff piece on Otepka praising him to the hilt. Sorry if I offended you or implied that it

was you in fact. It is a composite of 2 people who wrote about Otepka in fact, both of whom

reached roughly the same conclusions, that he was a victim, a martyr and an American Patriot.

Otepka is so convincing and so grandfatherly and such a master of brainwashing that anyone

could fall prey to his siren song. I just didn't want others to jump all over me as I tried to

give them both a logical out from the situation. They probably both would consider themselves,

left wingers or centrist. They probably both would consider Otepka a nice guy and me not

so nice for cutting into Otepka's history and background. So be it. Otepka WAS Oswald's

Travel Agent. He did have Oswald's defector dossier on his desk. And there is NO LOGICAL

REASON as to why Otepka would even have let Oswald back into the country with open arms

and without a long pause for reflection absent the motivation of Otepka as Oswald's Travel Agent.

Can you think of one? I can't. And no one called Otepka out on this issue. Ever. Never.

OK. I feel a bit foolish now. Let me explain. You wrote:

"Chatty Kathy is not from the Right. Well in fact if Chatty Kathy

is promulgating Right Wing writers or repeating Right Wing themes, and she is,

relative to my position, to the Right of Center, then she is coming from the Right."

As you were using the correct spelling of my name (not the doll's), I thought you were going off on me. I thought the right wing you mentioned had to do with me quoting the Buckley-Vidal debates and you thought I favored Buckley. Absolutely not. Plus he's the homliest man I ever saw on TV

"It could also be a case of being a celebrity

groupie because it makes you feel better to get an audience with someone who is

a Full Professor."

There is a professor on this Forum who is writing a book on celebrity Karyn Kupcinet and I contribute to his Yahoo Group website. I thought you were ridiculing me.

"Is it possible to have their "celebrity status"

rub off on you and your theories? I have seen many attempts of this type over the

years. And what is the difference between "celebrity statics" and "celebrity status"

anyway, can someone explain? Maybe "celebrity statics" is only obtained by close

contact or close proximity to someone with "celebrity status"? I can't say for sure.

And does removal of some "celebrity statics" from one person necessarily diminish

the amout of "celebrity status" remaining with that person? Can it all be rubbed off

and can it be replenished? Or can it be reduced to nothing? Or is it like the number

of "eggs in the ovum"? That's it all gone, your account is depleted. Just wondering."

I thought you were referring to my theory about the late Karyn Kupcinet and the Kennedy Assassination. I am known as the Forum Gossip.

It gets into the historical record, it drowns out most info which is contrary to the truth

or obfuscates it beyond the pale, and voila, Revisionist History has been accomplished.

Again, my theory on why Karyn Kupcinet was killed. I thought you were saying that writing about it continually, in time I could overwrite any other theories about her death. It's just a possiblility.

"Can I get some "celebrity statics" from hanging with you, dude?"

I thought this was criticism of my interest in celebrities. As a kid, I was star struck. Sometimes it doesn't go away. President Bush passed me on a bus-motorcade. I got out of the car and waved. I was stuck in traffic and was happy that I was close to a President, as much as I despise him. At least I got some entertainment while in a traffic jam.

Also, you came across like you were in some psychotic manic episode. That's all.

Kathy Collins

Oh never mind.

Good idea. Rest well.

Kathy

But of course my view is that Santo Trafficante, Jr. planned the entire assassination and the motivation had nothing to do with JFK's politics.

Except there is some indication that he was also earning some "chits" with Fidel.

It's hard for me to determine when you are joking. So, I'll take the above assertion seriously. Last night on a thread, I said I believed the Mafia did it because they were so desperate that Oswald be killed, they sent Jack Ruby to do it on TV; which had the side effect of giving them publicity they didn't want.

I now realize that Ruby was closer to the CIA and the Cuban Exiles. Did this organization press upon Ruby to kill Oswald because the cop coming into the TSBD didn't? And the Mob suffered because someone like Irv Kupcinet (calling Dorfman) was linking Ruby to the Mob? And whether involved or not, they committed a shocking crime to cover themselves in Chicago? (Not Miami, not New Orleans nor California.) Everyone in Chicago watched Karyn Kupcinet growing up. The headlines were shocking. The public knew she was dead before Irv and Essee Kupcinet did. Imagine seeing that headline.

Kathy

They should be treated as the relic that they are.

And Diana certainly had more integrity than her in-laws.

The VERY reasons she had to die...she made them look bad [as they mostly are...in their do-nothing-good-ness...and her actually doing somethings toward creating a better world......]. She talked of AIDS, poverty, inequality, landmines...and more.

Their world is one of hand-made saddles, billion-pound estates, tea at the proper time,  peerage-up-the-yazoo and other nonsense from centuries and societies past. Diana was a modern. 

She had to die, and die they made sure she did. 

Anyone heard about her death inquiry?

Peter, I believe as you and Christopher Hall do. She was murdered and the first responders had to help it along, as she wasn't dead yet. I just want to answer a rumor. It's been claimed that in the back seat, after they got the 4 passengers out, the authorities found cocaine. I don't believe it. I don't believe Princess Diana would resort to illegal drugs. She had 2 children to whom she had to be a role model, as a Royal. I believe this drug was planted by someone who responded right away. I also can't see Diana being interested in a man who did illegal drugs. This "evidence," more than anything -- with exception to the slow ambulance ride -- convinces me she was set up. And they had to make her look bad even in death, so people wouldn't feel sorry for her and despise the Royals.

I think if Diana had lived and there was this issue about cocaine in the back seat, all she would have to say is it was planted and I think everyone would believe her. What a bunch of creeps: MI5 or MI6 or Prince Philip.

Kathy

Rachel Williams

Monday October 29, 2007

The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/monarchy/story/0,,2201079,00.html

The member of the royal family targeted in an alleged blackmail plot centring on sex and drug claims is not a senior royal, the Guardian understands.

When Princess Diana was done-in [as I so suspect!] they really should have perhaps rolled-up the institution in a long red carpet, and just stayed in their lovely hard-earned [sic] castles having tea and scones IMO. Strangely, in the USA we are turning our Presidency and Oligarchy into something more akin to your Royalty. [and we can 'see and raise' you, poker-style, with Mr. William Clinton anytime.]

Princess Diana had more class then those fake royals anyday. They're really Germans, but took the name Windsor and became Britain's Royalty. The only ones with British blood flowing in their veins are Diana's kids. I understand Diana descended from the Stuarts and I read on an Internet site devoted to her that she was a direct descendant of the Merovingian Kings -- the ones with the blood of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdeline flowing in their veins.

I believe she was murdered too. The British pay high taxes to keep this family going. Except for Wills, I think England should do away with their musty Royal family. What good are they?

Also, America from the beginning of the 20th Century has always had royals -- Movie Stars.

Kathy

This thread is wandering all over the place in a manner unresponsive to

Ashton's initial proposition:

THE NECKTIE WAS IN THE PATH OF ANY BULLET FROM THE FRONT.

All messages which do not address that proposition are off-topic in my

opinion.

I am still looking for the slide I showed the HSCA in 1978 illustrating

this same thing, and will send it to Ashton when I find it, and he

may post it as a comparison to his illustration.

There is NO POSSIBILITY that a frontal bullet pierced the collar.

There is a very slight possibility that a glass sliver penetrated the

collar causing a "slit" in the fabric...but very slight.

I suggest that all responses to Ashton stick to the proposition that

a bullet did not penetrate the necktie.

Jack

*********

From Jack.....

B...

I protest that the image I asked Bernice to post has been

deleted. On my screen, the only thing below Bernice's message

is a large white square with nothing in it. It was the two slides

I showed the HSCA regarding NO HOLE IN THE TIE KNOT, in

response to Ashton's thread. I can conceive of no reason to

censor this image.

Jack

Jack, I am sorry you're having trouble with your computer or whatever. Often I can't see pictures others post too.

But I want to ask you. If Kennedy wasn't shot behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, why are his elbows unnaturally up in the air and his hands clasped, trying to remove his tie? Think of Altgen's photo.

Kathy

The argument has been made from time to time that the mob does not kill politicians, prosecutors or policemen. But the NY families came closely to ordering a hit on Rudy Guliani when he was a U.S. attorney fighting the mon, per recently released FBI records:

From New York Post October 25, 2007:

5 MAFIA BOSSES ALMOST SANCTIONED HIT

By MURRAY WEISS, PATRICK GALLAHUE and ALEX GINSBERG

The bosses of New York's five Mafia families in the mid-1980s came a hair-trigger away from sanctioning a hit on then-federal prosecutor Rudy Giuliani, according to bombshell FBI records made public yesterday.

The mob bosses decided by a 3-to-2 margin not to try to whack the future mayor and presidential candidate. But before cooler heads prevailed, at least two of the dons argued fervently that the mob-busting U.S. attorney should sleep with the fishes.

Bonanno boss Philip "Rusty" Rastelli, Genovese chief Vincent "The Chin" Gigante and Luchese honcho Anthony "Tony Ducks" Corallo all cast votes to spare the headline-grabbing prosecutor, the documents show.

But the young guns of the bunch, Gambino boss John "The Teflon Don" Gotti and Colombo chief Carmine "The Snake" Persico, were said to lobby in favor of the murder.

The news surfaced on day six of the blockbuster trial of former FBI supervisor Lindley DeVecchio, who faces life in prison for allegedly orchestrating four gangland rubouts by leaking inside information to his own informant, Colombo soldier Gregory "The Grim Reaper" Scarpa.

DeVecchio's lawyers entered into evidence Scarpa's 600-page informant file, compiled of tips, reports and suggestions received between 1980 and 1992, none more compelling than the note detailing the Giuliani discussions.

"On Sept. 17, 1987, sources advised that recent information disclosed that approximately a year ago all five NY LCN [La Cosa Nostra] families discussed the idea of killing USA [united States Attorney] Rudy Giuliani and John Gotti and Carmine Persico were in favor of the hit," the Scarpa memo reads.

I fail to see how this is on the topic of the JFK Assassination. Tickets, tickets.

If it wasn't for Jack Ruby, no one would have seriously believed that the Mob killed Kennedy. But I think they supplied some shooters and out of desperation got Ruby to kill Oswald. I don't think the Mob wanted any publicity and wouldn't have gotten any except for Ruby. And then talk show host and columnist Irv Kupcinet tracked down Paul "Red" Dorfman in Palm Springs (where his daughter was) after Ruby shot Oswald. Dorfman, more powerful than people thought, may have ordered a hit on Kupcinet's daughter. And this served as a shock to people in Chicago and got their minds off the Assassination.

Kathy

My God, I think you solved it. Call a press conference. Write a book. You will soon

have "celebrity statics" and join "Chatty Kathy" in the all star JFK researchers hall of shame.

Nice work.

Thank you. I serve only to please.

Kathy (Forum Gossip Dept.)

This is new stuff recently posted on the MFF web-site:

23 Oct 2007 - New CIA Files on Cuban Exiles: Additional CIA records include a 475-page Cuban Counterrevolutionary Handbook from 1964 indexing the "more than 900 CR groups now on record," and a four-volume "mugbook" of Cuban exiles. Part 1 contains a master index of the mugbook, and part 2, part 3, and part 4 contain approximately 500 photos each. Also in this collection is a set of CIA memos mostly relating to the threat of an HSCA subpoeona in August 1978 regarding access to the Mexico City Station History and the Teresa Proenza file.

900 Cuban exile groups! And the CIA had about 1500 photographs of the exiles! Well, they certainly kept the CIA busy in paperwork if nothing else!

Tim, could you or James tell me how to find these CIA files and photos? I was just over in MFF and I couldn't find the photos, etc.

Kathy Collins

Kathy,

It is labeled: Cuban Mug and Key Book - (Vol. 1) and listed under the HSCA Segregated CIA Collection (microfilm - reel 49),

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=613036

Using search : Cuban Mug and Key Book.

You must be a member to use the search fuction, a very valuable tool, as I've recently discovered, and most worthwhile joining and supporting Rex for all the revolutionary work he is doing posting this stuff.

The Mug book has 500 photos, each numbered, but I can't seem to locate the Master Index/Key Book, or any way of identifying names with the names and pix, though I'm sure it's because I'm the klutz.

BK

I believe the Master Index is still on the Internet. I was looking at it a week or two ago.

Kathy

The argument has been made from time to time that the mob does not kill politicians, prosecutors or policemen. But the NY families came closely to ordering a hit on Rudy Guliani when he was a U.S. attorney fighting the mon, per recently released FBI records:

From New York Post October 25, 2007:

5 MAFIA BOSSES ALMOST SANCTIONED HIT

By MURRAY WEISS, PATRICK GALLAHUE and ALEX GINSBERG

The bosses of New York's five Mafia families in the mid-1980s came a hair-trigger away from sanctioning a hit on then-federal prosecutor Rudy Giuliani, according to bombshell FBI records made public yesterday.

The mob bosses decided by a 3-to-2 margin not to try to whack the future mayor and presidential candidate. But before cooler heads prevailed, at least two of the dons argued fervently that the mob-busting U.S. attorney should sleep with the fishes.

Bonanno boss Philip "Rusty" Rastelli, Genovese chief Vincent "The Chin" Gigante and Luchese honcho Anthony "Tony Ducks" Corallo all cast votes to spare the headline-grabbing prosecutor, the documents show.

But the young guns of the bunch, Gambino boss John "The Teflon Don" Gotti and Colombo chief Carmine "The Snake" Persico, were said to lobby in favor of the murder.

The news surfaced on day six of the blockbuster trial of former FBI supervisor Lindley DeVecchio, who faces life in prison for allegedly orchestrating four gangland rubouts by leaking inside information to his own informant, Colombo soldier Gregory "The Grim Reaper" Scarpa.

DeVecchio's lawyers entered into evidence Scarpa's 600-page informant file, compiled of tips, reports and suggestions received between 1980 and 1992, none more compelling than the note detailing the Giuliani discussions.

"On Sept. 17, 1987, sources advised that recent information disclosed that approximately a year ago all five NY LCN [La Cosa Nostra] families discussed the idea of killing USA [united States Attorney] Rudy Giuliani and John Gotti and Carmine Persico were in favor of the hit," the Scarpa memo reads.

I fail to see how this is on the topic of the JFK Assassination. Tickets, tickets.

If it wasn't for Jack Ruby, no one would have seriously believed that the Mob killed Kennedy. But I think they supplied some shooters and out of desperation got Ruby to kill Oswald. I don't think the Mob wanted any publicity and wouldn't have gotten any except for Ruby. And then talk show host and columnist Irv Kupcinet tracked down Paul "Red" Dorfman in Palm Springs (where his daughter was) after Ruby shot Oswald. Dorfman, more powerful than people thought, may have ordered a hit on Kupcinet's daughter. And this served as a shock to people in Chicago and got their minds off the Assassination.

Kathy

Buckley has something else in common with David Phillips and E. Howard Hunt. Over the years he has written a series of novels about CIA covert operations. His hero is named: Blackford Oakes. It seems he learnt a lot during his short time in the CIA. In 2001 he published the novel "Spytime: The Undoing of James Jesus Angleton".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spytime portrayed Angleton's drift into paranoia. I've read it. By the end of the book Angleton is relieved when Colby fires him, because he at long last knows the identity of the mole he's been searching for: Colby himself.. It works as literature but is not the glamorous portrait of the CIA you might envision. In another one of Buckley's books, Blackford Oakes befriends Che Guevara. He has the chance to save Guevara's life at the end but chooses not to when Guevara acknowledges his role in killing one of Oakes' lady friends, who'd been spying on Fidel. I suspect he'd talked to Rodriguez before writing that one.

Thanks for telling us the ending of the book.

My favorite story about Buckley is his famous run-in with Gore Vidal. Vidal called him a "crypto-fascist' during a live television debate, to which Buckley called Vidal a fag and threatened to sock him in the face. Classic stuff. Another great Buckley moment came when the movie and TV personality Gary Merrill--an ardent leftist--came across Buckley in an airport. As Merrill tells it, he banged on the phone booth Buckley was in and started calling him the pig that he was, to which Big Bad Buckley responded by...cowering in the phone booth till the airport security could drag Merrill away. I'd have paid to see that.

The last debate at the Democratic Convention in Chicago was great.

Vidal: ...you're the only crypto Nazi-I know --

Buckley: Call me a crypto-Nazi again, you queer (pronounced kwe-er), and I'll punch you in the face. And you'll stay plastered.

Close up of Gore Vidal's reddened face [you can tell in B&W]. His smile is twitching and a tear comes into his right eye.

Buckley: Oh, yeah.

Buckley was referring to the story of Gore Vidal being thrown out of the White House one night because he was so drunk. Vidal denies this. He had words with Bobby Kennedy. Bobby knocked Vidal's hand off Jacqueline Kennedy's shoulder twice. Vidal followed him and they wound up in a hallway where all the doors were shut. Vidal says he said:

Vidal: Don't you ever do that again.

Bobby: XXXX off, Buddy-Boy.

To which one of America's Man of Letters heard himself saying:

Vidal: You XXXX off.

He was never invited back to the White House. I don't think he ever spoke to his step-sister, Jackie, again -- which is sad. He admired her and after she died, told how cool, intelligent and quick-witted she was.

Buckley continues:

Buckley: Myra Breckinridge. Go back to writing your pornography. ...when it concerns American marines. I was...

Vidal: See, you distort your own military history.

Vidal had the last laugh. Esquire mag wanted him to write an article about the 6 debates with William F. Buckley. This was secret. Esquire asked Buckley to write about the 6 debates. His would be published first, then the next month, Gore Vidal's essay would follow. Vidal got to read Buckley's essay and wrote his response. Buckley went off on "why is it OK to be homosexual, but you can't say someone's homosexual." Which, to me, he was cowering about the word "queer." I guess he didn't want to lose the queers that watched his show, etc. Then Vidal had his comeback:

Vidal (re Buckley): They sent him and his siblings to [certain schools] so they could all come back with Patrician accents.

Then he accepts Buckley's apology. Well, Buckley sued Vidal and Esquire. The judge threw the case against Gore Vidal out. But Buckley said Vidal still had $70,000 in legal costs and he was happy about that. Buckley won his case against Esquire.

I just thought I'd share this.

Kathy

This is new stuff recently posted on the MFF web-site:

23 Oct 2007 - New CIA Files on Cuban Exiles: Additional CIA records include a 475-page Cuban Counterrevolutionary Handbook from 1964 indexing the "more than 900 CR groups now on record," and a four-volume "mugbook" of Cuban exiles. Part 1 contains a master index of the mugbook, and part 2, part 3, and part 4 contain approximately 500 photos each. Also in this collection is a set of CIA memos mostly relating to the threat of an HSCA subpoeona in August 1978 regarding access to the Mexico City Station History and the Teresa Proenza file.

900 Cuban exile groups! And the CIA had about 1500 photographs of the exiles! Well, they certainly kept the CIA busy in paperwork if nothing else!

Tim, could you or James tell me how to find these CIA files and photos? I was just over in MFF and I couldn't find the photos, etc.

Kathy Collins

The classic Dick Tuck story occurred during Nixon's 62 campaign for California Governor. Nixon was campaigning in Chinatown in an assembly hall lined with Chinese banners. The way the story goes, it wasn't till after Nixon spoke that one of his Chinese supporters told him that the banners, written in Chinese, said, "Ask Nixon about the Hughes loan!"

Re the Presidency: When Nixon was running for President in 1968, he received money from Howard Hughes -- and so did Hubert Humphery. Hughes wasn't sure who would win, so he felt secure that whoever did win would be his puppet. This is recounted in Citizen Hughes by Michael Drosnin, the same author who wrote The Bible Code years later.

Kathy Collins

Also, did it ever become public why Sinatra's son was kidnapped? Ransom, blackmail or otherwise?

Actually, at the time, I did not think it was a real kidnap, but something to get the assassination off the front pages. (At 14 I was already very critical when it came to this case).

Dawn

I met Frank Sinatra Jr in 1971. He was appearing on the Steel Pier in Atlantic City. We bought "Reserved Seats": $0.25. But he was great and not a nervous bone in his body. Later, when we were getting his autograph, a woman went up to him and mentioned his father. Jr was surprised about this and pulled away as fast as he could from the crowd. He was with a plain blonde woman. Anyway, I got his line: "You're very pretty, aren't you?" His autograph read "Mr. Sinatra."

The kidnapping was for real. I think 2 men did jail time. But your mention of it diverting interest from the Assassination makes me wonder. It's possible Karyn Kupcinet was murdered to shock Chicago -- where everyone knew her and her family -- and get people to talk about that rather than the Mobsters in Chicago. If so, I bet it was on the order of Paul "Red" Dorfman. Irv Kupcinet was looking for the Chicago angle of the Assassination because of Ruby. Ruby shooting Oswald was shedding light on the Mafia in Chicago. Because of Ruby's actions, people began to believe the mob were responsible for Kennedy's death. This was unwanted evidently. They wanted a diversion.

Thanks for your insight, Dawn.

Kathy

Elvis is the only person who has had more impersonators than Lee Harvey Oswald.

Ron

Great observation, Ron. Really.

The only "link" I can think of between Elvis and JFK was a TV movie about Elvis -- don't know which one -- where he's sitting in front of the TV watching the Kennedy Assassination coverage and he says, someday someone is going to shoot me like that.

Kathy

I think the "big fish" were Dillon & Presley (which is why they selected Dealey Plaza for the "kill zone").

Don't you mean Bob Dylan? I guess you're too young...

Kathy

As I said above, the document has a written date on it -- December 6, 1963. Karyn Kupcinet was found dead on Nov. 30 '63. She was murdered on Nov. 28, 1963. When this particular article came out, the FBI saw fit to make a copy of it. Did someone in the FBI suspect her murder had something to do with the Assassination? Irv had contacted the FBI. Hoover wrote a nice note to the LASD to encourage the investigation. But Hoover could not do anything because it didn't involve a crossing of state lines. Karyn was murdered where she lived. Could they have kept their copy of the Kilgallen column because Irv called them recently?

I also found a document where Paul "Red" Dorfman related to them that Irv Kupcinet called him in Palm Springs after Oswald was shot. According to the document, Irv asked if Red knew Ruby. Dorfman said no, I don't know any Jack Ruby. Irv said, well his real name is Rubenstein and mentioned the Waste Handler's Union. Then Red said he remembered him and that he was a very excitable man. But Rubenstein left for Dallas after Red took over the union. This was 23 years earlier. Irv had met Ruby maybe twice. Dorfman had little info to give Irv. Four days after the call, Karyn was dead. This exchange is recorded in FBI 44-24016 Ruby HQ File, Section 37, page 129.

Kilgallen's column seemed to boast that Karyn's circle of friends knew who killed her. She describes him as a most unusual young man. I think she meant David Lange, the downstairs neighbor.

But I have also read another Kilgallen column where she said the killer was a married man in her circle of friends. I can only think of Mark Goddard. But I'm sure she knew other married couples. This is probably irrelevant, but the Goddards' marriage was on the rocks. Goddard has a Master's Degree in Special Ed. He teaches school. He has another life, though he shows up at Sci Fi conventions because he acted in Lost in Space. He is married to I believe his 3rd wife and is a devout Catholic.

Kathy

On December 6, 1963, the FBI made a copy of Dorothy Kilgallen's column, the Voice of Broadway. In her column she started off with the murder of Karyn Kupcinet. In the same article she makes a mention of Jack Ruby knowing someone named Joe Glaser. Now, did the FBI clip this article because of Karyn's murder or because of Kilgallen mentioning Ruby?

Kathy

Has anyone seen the stories that apparently started today or yesterday that Dick Cheney and Obama are eighth cousins?

They do not, however, go hunting together.

Yes, I saw it yesterday on the news. But let me tell you, seriously -- if Obama gets anywhere near the Democratic candidacy, he'll be dead. They'll kill him in an accident or whatever. Those oil barons aren't going to let a black man, particularly one who was brought up in the Islamic religion, anywhere near the presidency. This is a prediction. Or maybe there'll be voting fraud again, as between Bush and Gore in Florida in 2000.

Kathy

Excellent thread.

So I have to ask the obvious question. If, as Ashton argues, it was not a bullet wound at all, then what the hell was it?

This is one candidate:

Ashton

This is what I was talking about in post #6. You shoo-shooed it and now you come up with just the type of device I was describing. What do you say to that?

1. That image of a piercing needle is not what you were "talking about in post #6," because it is not by any stretch of the imagination a missile (which I addressed unequivocally in another message in this thread, and which I'll get to), and you specifically referred in post #6 to "a missile":

Could an extremely thin missile, say a dart from an umbrella-fashioned weapon, have entered his neck from the front right?

My answer there was, and my answer now is, and my answer forevermore will be "No." Not just "No," but "NO!" The entire point of this thread, and the entire foundation of my position in it—given that you seem somehow to have missed it entirely (even though this is your third post to it)—is as follows:

NO BULLET, DART, MISSILE, FRAGMENT, OR MOVING PROJECTILE

OF ANY DESCRIPTION

COULD HAVE

ENTERED

OR

EXITED

JOHN F. KENNEDY'S THROAT WHILE HE WAS TRAVELING IN THE MOTORCADE THROUGH DEALEY PLAZA WITHOUT GOING THROUGH 15 LAYERS OF TIE FABRIC AND FOUR LAYERS OF SHIRT FABRIC.

How can I make this more plain? How can I make it more simple? How can I engender understanding?

2. I already fully covered in this thread the question of how a device similar to the piercing needle might have been employed:

Are you suggesting a poison dart may have been used or a piercing needle?

I'm suggesting the possibility that a device similar to the piercing needle I pictured above could have been employed, and in very short order indeed. I am suggesting that if some similar device had been used—either during the removal of the clothing, or even before it was removed, by sliding such a device between the shirt plackets under the tie—it would have produced a wound consistent with descriptions by all eyewitnesses.

I believe that if such a device had in fact been used, it most likely would have been employed to administer a large quantity of some kind of toxin that would have been completely unsuspected, yet known to be fatal, and for which there was no existing test for detection in a human.

However improbable some may consider it, it yet is not impossible—which clearly is the case in re a bullet having caused such a wound as has been described, which I have demonstrated dispositively.

If the latter, then why? Is there a weapon which can propel such a projectile? A needle has no ballistics. How could it otherwise be inserted?

By hand, as I described just above.

I don't know how to make this any more understandable to you.

Ashton Gray

We're playing with semantics here. I was trying to describe something going into Kennedy's neck besides a bullet. Call it what you will. If it was the piercing needle, how did it get activated at that particular time?

Kathy

Now, those who have ridden this pony before should recall that CE840 originally consisted of 3 lead fragments which were found in the left rear floorboard of the Presidential Limo.

How can we believe in anything that came from the limo? Photos exist to attest that LBJ had SS men cleaning the limo with rag and bucket and putting the top on the car.

Kathy