Kathleen Collins

Excellent thread.

So I have to ask the obvious question. If, as Ashton argues, it was not a bullet wound at all, then what the hell was it?

This is one candidate:

Ashton

This is what I was talking about in post #6. You shoo-shooed it and now you come up with just the type of device I was describing. What do you say to that?

Also, you beg people not to destroy this thread. Then you go ahead and do it with Purvis, asking him about whether he learned how to brainwash somebody!

Kathy

This thread is wandering all over the place in a manner unresponsive to

Ashton's initial proposition:

THE NECKTIE WAS IN THE PATH OF ANY BULLET FROM THE FRONT.

All messages which do not address that proposition are off-topic in my

opinion.

I am still looking for the slide I showed the HSCA in 1978 illustrating

this same thing, and will send it to Ashton when I find it, and he

may post it as a comparison to his illustration.

There is NO POSSIBILITY that a frontal bullet pierced the collar.

There is a very slight possibility that a glass sliver penetrated the

collar causing a "slit" in the fabric...but very slight.

I suggest that all responses to Ashton stick to the proposition that

a bullet did not penetrate the necktie.

Jack

Then why did Kennedy clutch at his throat as though he was choking?

Kathy

"But the Parkland doctors said..."

Well, what did they say about the wound to the throat? They didn't say much of anything that a same-size group of longshoremen or checkout girls couldn't have said about it, with just as much contradiction of each other, but scarcely more.

What they didn't say is the hyperinflated mythology that rages like a fire-and-brimstone tent revival in the "research community," where Garrison-Book thumpin' Front-Shooter Faithful will swear on the Holy Gun-Totin' Ghost(s) that every medical personnel in Parkland 'lowed that there was a bullet hole in the throat, and that it was an entrance wound, so JFK absolutely had to have been shot from the front.

Well, while the Front-Shooters all hold hands and sing "I shall not be, I shall not be moved," while they steadfastly refuse the evidence of their own eyes and stare fixedly away from the heathenistic animations above, let's you and me just go all-out heathen and heretic, and consult the actual sworn testimony of these sainted Parkland personnel to find out what in fact came out of their mouths—summarized and counted rather clinically and dispassionately here in this summary of sworn testimony about the celebrated lower-throat stigmata:

If you're having any trouble with that image immediately above, you can access it through these links as:

a direct browswer link to the image, or,

a PDF file of the same chart, or,

a web page with the chart as an html table, or,

even download it to your default download location as a Microsoft Excel file.

Assuming you have the chart in front of you in some form, it can be seen that out of 12 Parkland Hospital personnel who testified under oath about the throat wound—10 doctors and 2 nurses—9 were ambiguous about or flat out didn't know whether the wound was a bullet entrance wound or a bullet exit wound. In fact, fully half of the personnel at issue, 6 of them, said under oath that they never saw the throat (neck) wound at all, or saw the area only after Dr. Malcolm Perry had electively sliced a gaping tracheotomy gash right through the center of it—conveniently eradicating all evidence of the wound, however it had been made.

This edited chart below reflects, then, the only actual eyewitnesses of record—except now I've moved the count for Dr. Ronald Jones from the EXIT WOUND column to the ENTRANCE WOUND column as a result of a discussion with someone in this forum that took place while this article was in progress—not because Jones actually made a definitive declatory statement that it was an entrance wound, but because his own ambiguous statements could be interpreted either way, and I was happy to concede the benefit of the doubt:

So of the six actual eyewitnesses, half said it could have been either an entrance or an exit wound, one said he thought it was an exit wound, and two people in the entire world who claim they saw the wound—including the ambivalent Jones—said they thought it was a bullet entrance wound.

Two people. Two. In the entire world. Two.

(I probably should be more politic than to mention that one of those two—Dr. Ronald Jones—lied under oath about steroids that were administered to Kennedy in Trauma Room One in order to hide that fact that JFK's personal physician, Admiral Burkley, had been in the room and supplied the steroids, because it's a very inconvenient time for Burkley to have been there. But why should I start being politic now?)

The utterly simple, if lamentable and painful (to some), truth that explains in full the conflicting opinions and assertions about whether it was a bullet entrance wound or a bullet exit wound is that it was not a bullet wound at all.

Now, there's a good deal more that could be said about all this, and some of it I have said before, and some of it I could further say, but being a heathen and a heretic is only a part-time position and doesn't pay well at all, so for the moment I believe I will give this over to the Front-Shot Faithful and let the ghost-hunt begin. Again.

Ashton Gray

If there was no bullet wound of any kind on his neck, why on the Zapruder film, do we see President Kennedy clutching his throat? He seems to want to undo his tie. His head, on this doctored film, seems to be imploding to me until the shot that came from the front right. Could an extremely thin missile, say a dart from an umbrella-fashioned weapon, have entered his neck from the front right? And the Stemmons Freeway sign conveniently inserted into the film to obscure where Kennedy was first hit with whatever he was choking on?

Kathy

Recently, I found out that on the Assassination weekend, Karyn Kupcinet with friends and mobster Paul "Red" Dorfman were both in Palm Springs. While there, Dorfman was tracked down by Irv Kupcinet who asked about Ruby shooting Oswald. Dorfman said, "Sparky is the last guy you'd expect to do this. He was a nebbish sort of guy."

=

Kathy:

The theory that Karyn was offed by the mob to cool the investigative ardor of her father is one I hadn't heard before. I'm wondering about your sources for the info regarding the visits to Palm Springs (concurrent, I assume, but not connected) by Kupcinet and Dorfman , and also regarding the info about the Dorfman-Irv Kupcinet conversation. Could you supply those sources? Thanks.

Bob Cox

Dear Bob,

I am all too happy to give you the sources. In Kup: a Man, an Era, a City, Irv Kupcinet wrote that after Ruby shot Oswald he tracked down Paul "Red" Dorfman at Palm Springs. Page 176 Hardcover. Bonus Books, 1988

Karyn went with Andrew Prine, Lynn Loring and Earl Holliman to Palm Springs because of Kennedy's assassination. Page 69, Crime Wave, "The Glamour Jungle" by James Ellroy. Softback, Vintage Crime. Also "The Glamour Jungle" by James Ellroy in GQ, December, 1998

There is a photo of the 2 couples in Palm Springs at: thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com Scroll down a bit.

Kathy

I think I'll bugger off on the Jesuits stuff - lee

Lee, please don't "bugger off" on the Jesuits. I have read allegations that the Vatican and the Jesuits knew Kennedy was going to be hit. They did not like his politics. But they kept publicly quiet about it. Supposedly, that little fat creep, Cardinal Spellman, knew and was glad again to be the main Catholic in the United States. Or at least that's how he viewed himself. No, the upper echelons of Catholicism did not like Kennedy. I went to a Jesuit college. They hate women. Please keep investigating them. Do you know about Malachy Martin?

Kathy

No clue what Malachy Martin is - however I have come across Cardinal Spellman's name many times. He is mentioned in Unholy Trinity as having delivered the message that 'quisling' Bishop Rozman could find sanctuary in the United States - that despite US and British intel having officially decided that he was one of the real criminals that had to be handed over to Tito. Spellman also led some kind of propaganda campaign with respect to false accusations against Nazi criminals living in the US.

I have always been interested in the Jesuits - just not enough info. I pulled together some stuff someplace, but then never got around to putting it all together. One particular Jesuit connection that has been covered on the Forum before is the one concerning Dr Jose Rivera. There are certain schools that are affiliated with the Jesuits that also come quickly to mind - with respect to connections with the assassination. For example - the alleged Lake Pontchartain film of a 'camp' that may have all been some form of propaganda piece [from what I took away from Baker's books] - discovered and vanished at Georgetown University. Oswald and his lecture for his Jesuit cousin. Loyola and Rivera. The other Rivera that claimed he was an infilitration agent of the Jesuits [Chick publications].

Still stuck with why Fermin de Goicoechea would bother penetrating the International weekend [if it was Fermin], with it's 'Religion in the modern state' theme, unless there was some kind of hidden agenda. I think I may have mentioned someplace else about concerns about dual allegiances. Apparently it is not enough that our current President does not have to talk about his membership in a secret society - for example. Amazing. This should be grounds for dismissal.

The information provided in Unholy Trinity provides sufficient precedent for application of a unified Church and expansion of Catholicism in opposition to the godlessness of Communism following WWII, here in the US - where they loosed thousands of criminals instead of putting them on trial and executing them for the murder and torture of thousands of innocents. But since the Pope could justify it, I guess it must be okay. Last point on this note, it was humorous to note that the assistance provided to the Nazis fleeing retribution and justice was not handled by the Church, per se, but by Rogues - as per the official church view - sound familiar?

- lee

Lee, Malachy Martin was a Jesuit who turned on them because he saw sex and devil worshipping going on in the Vatican. And that they killed Pope John Paul I via poison. He wrote a series of books about the Jesuits, but I think in a novelistic form. Have not read them yet. Malachy told the Pope (not sure which one, but I think in the '70's) he was giving up his vow of poverty and some other vow, but was going to keep his vow of celibacy. (Cynically I wonder if he just couldn't get it up anymore -- how easy.) The worst thing he could done was share intimacy with a woman. No, they don't like that.

Kathy

Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

Recently, I found out that on the Assassination weekend, Karyn Kupcinet with friends and mobster Paul "Red" Dorfman were both in Palm Springs. While there, Dorfman was tracked down by Irv Kupcinet who asked about Ruby shooting Oswald. Dorfman said, "Sparky is the last guy you'd expect to do this. He was a nebbish sort of guy."

I think Dorfman was unnerved a bit by Irv's tenaciousness and eagerness. I think possibly Dorfman saw Karyn in Palm Springs that weekend. And maybe an idea sprung to mind about keeping Irv Kupcinet away from Ruby and the Chicago angle of the assassination. To kill Kupcinet would be too obvious. But to kill his daughter, whom every Chicagoan knew, would take away any interest Irv would have about Ruby. He would be in no condition to investigate the Chicago Mob. Possibly, a plan was afoot to commit an outrageous crime in Chicago, sometime after the assassination, to get the heat off the Mob. And Dorfman decided to kill Karyn to shock all of Chicago. Possibly, there'd be talk of nothing else. I myself was shocked when I looked at microfilmed Chicago Tribune and saw the awful, large black headline (from memory): KUPCINET GIRL DEAD. My stomach knotted.

That is the latest re the Kennedy theory. She did not have foreknowledge and neither did her father. Her father hadn't seen Ruby in decades. Irv knew nothing about the assassination before it happened. IMO it was to shock Chicago.

Kathy

I don't usually do this, but I am now bumping this post and a few others, as there were moderated posts here that were not approved immediately, and might be left in the back possibly unnoticed.

You sound like fun.

Kathy

I think I'll bugger off on the Jesuits stuff - lee

Lee, please don't "bugger off" on the Jesuits. I have read allegations that the Vatican and the Jesuits knew Kennedy was going to be hit. They did not like his politics. But they kept publicly quiet about it. Supposedly, that little fat creep, Cardinal Spellman, knew and was glad again to be the main Catholic in the United States. Or at least that's how he viewed himself. No, the upper echelons of Catholicism did not like Kennedy. I went to a Jesuit college. They hate women. Please keep investigating them. Do you know about Malachy Martin?

Kathy

Courtney, who was it who said "You can never be too rich or too thin"? (Probably incorrect in both cases; but unfortunately I am neither rich nor thin.)

Wallis Simpson, I believe.

I love Vanity Fair. Murder and scandal among the rich and famous. Right up my alley.

Kathy

Forgive me if this show aired already or it's common knowledge it's being made. But according to tabloidbaby.blogspot.com, Tom Hanks and HBO are trying to work out a deal in which Vincent Bugliosi's book on the Kennedy Assassination will be turned into a multi-part miniseries. They're going to produce this awful lie and people will be lead to believe it. I guess it's good I don't get HBO. No matter how hard Kennedy researchers try to explain and prove things that are substantially different from the Warren Commission's obfuscation of the Crime of the Century, something in this govt is still trying to suppress the truth. What will people believe 50 years from now? That Oswald was a dork and he killed the President? If he was trying to get attention for himself for killing Kennedy, why would he not tell reporters in the police station that he was the killer? He

never "admitted" it to them. He asked for legal representation and said he was a Patsy.

Kathy

Bill, finally, we have several things to agree on!

You wrote:

I like Jim, a real good guy.

I won't comment aye or nay on Mr Marrs but I wholeheartedly agree that you are a REAL good guy!

You also wrote:

And I never site Jim Marrs book for anything, as it does not have an index and is poorly referenced

I can agree with half of that. The paperback version I purchased yesterday has an index but it is not a good index and I agree with you re the references.

That being said, I have picked up several new pieces of information from the book.

Crossfire was the first book I read that mentioned Karyn Kupcinet as the first witness after Oswald to die, due to her preknowledge of the Assassination. This info was taken from the legendary Penn Jones, Jr. I have never read his books, but I'd like to get ahold of Forgive My Grief II. Jones is quoted as saying Karyn, a disturbed woman, tried to place a person-to-person call to Chicago. She didn't get through, but the operators heard her saying, "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, they did. The telephone company manager called the FBI. It was printed in many newspapers the next day.

It seems to me that Penn Jones -- if he is quoted correctly -- has the mind of a novelist. Years later he took a true story about this call which occurred in California and connected it to Karyn Kupcinet, who had died 6 days later. Jones had appeared on Kup's Show in 1966. It may have been here that he found out about the unsolved murder of Karyn Kupcinet, and the wheels started turning.

In my opinion, she had no foreknowledge of the assassination. If she was killed in any way having to do with the assassination or Ruby, it was to get at Irv, her reporter father, who knew everyone in Chicago.

Re Jim Marrs, I think his book was comprehensive and hard to put down. I believe he strove to tell the truth and may have been influenced by Penn Jones' writing.

Kathy

More amazing is the fact that this man was not made to come forward and submit to an intense interrogation in order

to determine what involvement or connection he may, or may not, have had with LHO and/or the Soviet and Cuban

officials he had been associating with.

How in the world could an investigation be turned off simply because someone in the CIA opined that the man would be

embarrassed if he were to be publicly linked to the situation in MC.

The only mystery to me is how this "unknown" man could be known to our intel services, yet, their working relationship

could be swept under the carpet so easily.

The portion of the MC transcript where "LHO" said he could not stay in MC because he would have to use his "real name"

makes sense when you consider that the man , Sague, who was not LHO, could put the operation in danger if his cover or alias should be blown.

"LHO" being in contact w/ Legat in MC is one piece of information which really puts the FBI squarely in the middle of the

"Operation Oswald" being performed.

In Men on the Sixth Floor by Glen Sample and Texas in the Morning by Madeleine Brown, as reviewed by Walt Brown, the authors tell us that Ralph Geb had something to do with the "mysterious Saul" and was a friend to Mac Wallace. Was Ralph Geb the mystery man photographed in Mexico City? Mac Wallace was on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Was Geb with "Saul" during the Assassination? A fingerprint of Mac Wallace's was found on a box on the sixth floor after the Assassination. Mac Wallace was "Lyndon's Boy."

Could somebody please tell me how Ralph Geb played into this?

Kathy

I have been looking high and low for a photo of Paul Red Dorfman, who had ties to Hoffa and Ruby. He was from Chicago, a racketeers mobster, involved with the Waste Handler's Union. His son was Allen Dorfman, whose picture I have.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Here's another request for a photo: The late Shannon Murchison from Dallas, Clint III's ex wife. She died a very suspicious death.

Thank you again.

Kathy Collins

Kathy,

Paul Dorfman below. Sorry, the quality is not that great.

Technically, Paul Dorfman was Allen's step-father.

Also, if you haven't done so already, may I suggest seeking out articles by Victor Reisel. He wrote extensively on the Dorfman family and also the connections to Jack Ruby.

Sorry, no images of Shannon Murchison but I will have a look around.

Cheers,

James

Shannon Murchison was in her 40's when she died in recent years. They said she died from Listeria. And that her liver was badly damaged. So the coroner says, she must have taken a lot of acetaminophen. She had a black eye and was bruised all over her body. The coroner said, maybe the liver damage caused the bruising. Then he said, whatever, it didn't cause her death.

I know she was on psychiatric drugs. But a woman with money wouldn't be taking acetaminophen if she was in pain; obviously they weren't working. Why not get prescription pain pills? I think this coroner is crooked or has been frightened by the power of the Murchison's in Dallas.

Thanks for the photo of Paul Red Dorfman. Dorfman was in Palm Springs the same weekend (Kennedy Assassination) as Karyn Kupcinet and received a phone call from Irv Kupcinet, asking about Ruby. Coincidence? I don't know how built up Palm Springs was then. It makes me wonder if their paths crossed.

Kathy

I have been looking high and low for a photo of Paul Red Dorfman, who had ties to Hoffa and Ruby. He was from Chicago, a racketeers mobster, involved with the Waste Handler's Union. His son was Allen Dorfman, whose picture I have.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Here's another request for a photo: The late Shannon Murchison from Dallas, Clint III's ex wife. She died a very suspicious death.

Thank you again.

Kathy Collins

The point behind all that... was that for some reason we're focusing on the young guys, and not those who typically hold a grudge. This wasn't to impress Jayne Mansfield, after all, and probably not Marina either.

Other thoughts to follow...

A trifle -- OK, I missed something. What does Jayne Mansfield have to do with Oswald, and what the hell is a "domino room"? I know Mansfield came from Texas and I know that the domino room was the lunch room of TSBD. But why is it called the "domino" room? Because of its decor?

Kathy

What Nixon says is catching. Nixon talks about "international speculators" who both create and then profit from the very "crisis" they create. And, his assessment is essentially truthful. That is how they do things.

Nixon was wrong to go to a floating exchange rate system (speculators love this) but he had people like John Connally and George Schultz advising him. Note also that he imposes a 10% tax on imports! Of course, back in 1971 this country still produced it's own physical wealth and didn't require cheap imports.

Is it possible that Nixon may have been character assassinated in a bloodless "coup d'etat" with Watergate of 1971, just as JFK had been physically assassinated in a "bloody" coup d'etat in Dallas of 1963? Did the Watergate coup plotters no longer need "Tricky Dicky" after he ended the Bretton Woods Monetary System? See for yourself.

Terry, I agree with you. Nixon made big mistakes with his bombing and withdrawal with Honor. But I've always felt sorry for him after Watergate. A penny ante burglary and the President has to resign. He was the butt of more jokes on TV, radio, etc. for so long; more than any other person I can remember (except maybe O.J. Simpson).

He was so proud to be President at his Inaugurations. I think he felt he was doing his mother proud. I think that was his drive. But this thing happened while he was in China and he had nowhere to go exept down. He was alcoholic and also took sleeping pills, according to Billy Graham. These tendencies grew as he was castigated. Also, people were surprised that he cursed so much. The funniest thing to me is when he was with Haldeman, he'd refer to Henry Kissinger as "Jewboy." For me, finding out that he cursed made me like him.

Under all the pressure, he deteriorated physically and mentally. But possibly after a drink or two, he gave such a great Au Revoir speech to his staff and America.

Another one bites the dust.

Kathy

The floor is open for discussion ....

According to John Armstrong's tome, Harvey and Lee, Lee Oswald and Mac Wallace were in the sniper's nest, Lee firing at Kennedy. Mac Wallace hadn't shown up for work Nov.22, 1963. His fingerprint was lifted from a cardboard box. Mac Wallace was known as Lyndon's Boy. He killed someone in the past and the judge gave him a 5-year suspended sentence. Lee was trying to implicate Harvey as the assassin.

Kathy

Kathy,

It's a deal! Just let me know when it's published.

OK.

Kathy

Thanks to Martin Shakelford for this image.

Large Cancellare (7)

Click Here

Notice how many women are wearing white socks. This must have been a fashion for women in Texas. I know NJ women of that day didn't wear dresses and socks together.

Kathy Collins

You buy my novel (if it's ever published) and I'll buy yours.

Kathy

Forget about Audie Murphy. I've seen his appearance on What's My Line. He and Dorothy don't say anything to each other indicating friendship. He had nothing to do with CIA surveillance of Warren Report critics. He was old news by 1964 in United States. His death in 1971 marked the first time he had been newsworthy in 15 years. If you Britons stayed close with him, then I hope you found him entertaining.

I think there's a lot more to the story than that.

Dorothy covered Audie more than once in gossip type articles in the Washington post on Murphy back in 1954 - one called 'Audie goes a-patchin.' I don't know what occurred on the episode of What's My Line, but if Dorothy didn't figure out who he was - well, that's like 'Quiz Show.'

If there's anything to be said for the book published by Gary Weans, Audie Murphy came into possession of some very significant top secret documents, by way of John Tower, concerning the assassination, in 1964. See Chapter 44 of 'There's a fish in the courthouse.'

Murphy's involvement in trying to spring Jimmy Hoffa is also worth noting, in that friends said he was looking to tap into the Teamster's pension fund [to save his failing businesses] - in the same way Trafficante and others had.

Murphy died in a plane crash which could be deemed suspicious. Wean certainly thought so.

Murphy travelled frequently to Ventura County, was friends with Bill Decker, had some honorary title with the Ventura Police department, and frequented Oxnard - the location of the phone call warning of the impending assassination of JFK, 20 minutes beforehand.

Murphy was on Mae Brussel's 'Mysterious Deaths' list.

Bizarre factoid - Murphy gave the foreward to the film 'War is hell' - which was showing 11/22/63 at the Dallas Theatre, built by Howard Hughes, where Oswald sought to find his contact that fateful afternoon.

Murphy was 'in the music business.'

All that remains is one clue that Murphy may have turned over a mysterious package to Dorothy Kilgallen, and you'd have more than enough motive to exterminate her and anyone even vaguely connected to her.

I keep expecting to find an Audie Murphy / Howard Hughes connection, but haven't yet beyond the fact that Hughes stole Murphy's gal back in 1946.

Hughes meets starlet Jean Peters at a party in Newport Beach, California. He invites the 19-year-old and her date, war hero/actor Audie Murphy, to fly with him to Catalina Island aboard his private plane. According to some accounts, Hughes and Peters immediately embark on an unpublicised romance and are rumoured to have become engaged before splitting in the mid-1950s. There are also persistent rumours that Hughes and Peters had an illegitimate child in 1954.

Maybe Lee Israel knows something about an Audie Murphy / Dorothy Kilgallen connection?

Here's another weird connection. Karyn Kupcinet was in a film with Audie Murphy, The Wild and the Innocent, 1959. She appeared under the name Tammy Windsor.

Her father was a very classy guy with his own talk show and column in the Chicago Sun-Times: Irv Kupcinet. He was as great as Dorothy Kilgallen and Walter Winchell. When his daughter was murdered 6 days after President Kennedy, Walter Winchell went to Hollywood to find the killer. He didn't and the murder went unsolved. Irv was digging deep into the Chicago angle of the assassination. She might have been killed to shut him up. Such killers will not kill the person, but will kill someone the person loves.

Karyn Kupcinet was not murdered. Her father, Irv suffered a lot of pain at the hands of conspiracy theorists who made his daughter look like a slut who hobnobbed with criminals. She knew nothing about the assassination, and neither did her father. Irv is dead now, but Karyn's younger brother Jerry still suffers emotionally because of these false allegations. Very recently, somebody worked hard on Karyn's Wikipedia article to debunk the theory. Let's see if I can post a link to it successfully. If it doesn't work, then please visit Wikipedia yourself and find the piece on "karyn kupcinet."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyn_Kupcinet

I have edited some info about Karyn Kupcinet into wikipedia. Firstly, she was murdered. Her father and mother said so. I suspect the Chicago Mob. Secondly, the killer tried to make it look like a robbery, rape killing. Her house was plundered, but nothing was missing but her methamphetamine pills. In her birth canal was a "copious" amount of what may have been semen, but it was decomposed.

Lastly, someone in her circle may have killed her. In no uncertain terms, the Kupcinets believed she was murdered by her new downstairs neighbor, the late David Lange, brother of actress Hope Lange.

Another thing I want to address: Was her door locked or unlocked? I have always read it was unlocked. Now I read that her door was locked -- though this doesn't matter if the killer found it unlocked and committed the deed, then locked it going out. (It was that type of door.) But my understanding was that Mark Goddard turned the knob and the door popped open, making him go downstairs to his wife in the car and asking her to come up. David Lange told another woman living in the apartment complex (Monterey Apartments on N. Sweetzer, West Hollywood) that he was the killer and that actually, he went up to Karyn's apartment on Friday, after Thanksgiving and the door opened, but he didn't go in. However, he did just walk into the woman's apartment, to whom he was now speaking, without knocking or permission. Why wouldn't he go into Karyn's apartment? I have a whole theory about Lange, which I'll save for now.

I just want to get across that there were many inaccuracies on the Wikipedia Karyn Kupcinet matter. I have tried to correct some of them. Better to go to

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet

Kathy

I learned last night that Karyn went to Palm Springs with Andrew Prine and friends the Assassination weekend. Irv Kupcinet, her father and Chicago columnist, called Paul Dorfman when Ruby shot Oswald. Dorfman was a slight man with a benign demeanor, as Bobby Kennedy described him in The Enemy Within. He was also Hoffa's Chicago ally.

Irv tracked down Dorfman in Palm Springs that weekend. Could Dorfman and Karyn Kupcinet have met, interacted? Could Dorfman, a man with powerful connections, have decided to stop Irv's investigation into the Chicago angle of the Kennedy Assassination? Karyn was dead 4 days later.

Kathy

I am going to look into Paul Dorfman. I understand he's dead. Here's a scenario: Say he's outside a hotel on a chaise lounge. Someone comes out with a phone and tells him he has a call. It turns out to be Irv Kupcinet. He is asking about Ruby. Dorfman knows Ruby is going to kill Oswald. Now he has a very excited Irv Kupcinet on the phone asking about Ruby. "Sparky wouldn't do that," Dorfman feigns, thinking this is all we need. When he gets off the phone with Kupcinet, he sees Karyn Kupcinet. He's seen numerous photos of her in the Chicago Sun-Times. Somehow, her being where he is and where he has just spoken to her father unsettles him. He picks up the phone and calls a thug and says, "I want you to kill Irv Kupcinet's daughter....." Of course, this is overkill. Another mobster might have acted differently.

Kathy

http://www.metnews.com/articles/perspectives080902.htm

"Although he attested in his letter to Dorfman’s good character, Covelli admitted to the Daily News that he had only met the defendant two or three times. He noted, however, that he had known Dorfman’s late father (actually step-father), Paul Dorfman, for 50 years.

That was a damning admission by the judge. Paul Dorfman was a known mobster. The San Francisco Chronicle, in an article on Nov. 18, 1996, described him as “a leading figure in the Chicago mob” who “ran the Waste Handlers Union in Chicago in 1939 with Jack Ruby, Lee Harvey Oswald’s future killer.”

***********************

So Dorfman wasn't a guy you'd fool around with -- he was major Mob. Killing Irv Kupcinet would cause more scrutiny by the law, especially after the Assassination. But he could have ordered someone to kill Irv's daughter. I think she was being stalked the last 3 days of her life.

Kathy

My blood is boiling. The Kupcinets have always said she was murdered. How can anyone in his/her right mind think Karyn wasn't murdered? You must have been reading James Ellroy, a dark character, a religious fanatic and an admitted pervert. No empty pill bottles were around in the living room. But they were in the bathroom cabinet. She did not hurt herself on a piece of furniture. The interior wounds were too extensive on the left side of her throat. She was murdered via the "sleeper method," in my opinion, which is supposed to be very quick. A man grabs you from behind, gets you into some kind of headlock which closes one or both carotid arteries to the brain and the victim dies. This is entirely consistent with her autopsy results. Irv Kupcinet was quick to anger if anyone suggested his daughter killed herself. As depressed as she was, Karyn didn't do it. Her red bathrobe was lying on a chair in the living room. Obviously, she didn't put it there. Someone turned the TV on for light. She heard noise in the living room and went to check it out. It's possible she never saw the face of her killer. Also, I think there was sexual contact. The killer stripped off her robe. Why would someone go to her door to let someone in and take off her bathrobe?

Whether it was connected to the Assassination or not, it was a definite murder. I did not know there was a Wikipedia entry on Karyn. I will look it up, but I did not write it. I've spent years trying to get her noticed by people on the Internet, and even before that. It's possible the killer is dead. There are so many possibilities. But she was murdered. Irv Kupcinet and Essee always considered it a murder. And Kup would be very mad hearing someone repeat that she killed herself.

Murder

Kathy Collins

I learned last night that Karyn went to Palm Springs with Andrew Prine and friends the Assassination weekend. Irv Kupcinet, her father and Chicago columnist, called Paul Dorfman when Ruby shot Oswald. Dorfman was a slight man with a benign demeanor, as Bobby Kennedy described him in The Enemy Within. He was also Hoffa's Chicago ally.

Irv tracked down Dorfman in Palm Springs that weekend. Could Dorfman and Karyn Kupcinet have met, interacted? Could Dorfman, a man with powerful connections, have decided to stop Irv's investigation into the Chicago angle of the Kennedy Assassination? Karyn was dead 4 days later.

Kathy

I am going to look into Paul Dorfman. I understand he's dead. Here's a scenario: Say he's outside a hotel on a chaise lounge. Someone comes out with a phone and tells him he has a call. It turns out to be Irv Kupcinet. He is asking about Ruby. Dorfman knows Ruby is going to kill Oswald. Now he has a very excited Irv Kupcinet on the phone asking about Ruby. "Sparky wouldn't do that," Dorfman feigns, thinking this is all we need. When he gets off the phone with Kupcinet, he sees Karyn Kupcinet. He's seen numerous photos of her in the Chicago Sun-Times. Somehow, her being where he is and where he has just spoken to her father unsettles him. He picks up the phone and calls a thug and says, "I want you to kill Irv Kupcinet's daughter....." Of course, this is overkill. Another mobster might have acted differently.

Kathy

Several years ago, during Bush 41's presidency, I was coming from Florida on I-26W near Columbia, South Carolina, when I realized that no traffic was coming south. The next thing I saw was two men with what appeared to be automatic rifles standing on either side of an overpass. As I continued North, each overpass had these armed men. This was for a minimum of 4 miles, and at least 8 armed men. When I got to the exit for Columbia, I saw a motorcade coming onto the Southbound lane of I-26. I immediately saw the presidential flag on one of the limos. I was able to recognize The president and Mrs. Bush. I am mentioning this because of the protection in place even on an interstate. There is no way on earth that a train should have been able to move so closely to where President Kennedy was passing, not to mention the windows open in tall buildings(discussed many times before).

Terry

Of course with Bush '41, the Secret Service had their orders: If Bush dies, shoot Quayle. I believe Bush '41 chose Quayle for just that reason. Nobody wanted Quayle as President, and how many Presidents can you kill?

Kathy

Okay, so I screwed up "Kupcinet." It was Karyn's father Irv and brother Jerry who negated her murder theory after she died. I implied Jerry was her son. Karyn was not murdered, and neither was Florence Pritchett Smith. Kilgallen could have been. I went to a lot of trouble to dig up the 1965 microfilmed newspaper saying Smith was so sick she planned her own funeral and chose pallbearers. Did anyone read where I quoted it in two very recent posts ?

My blood is boiling. The Kupcinets have always said she was murdered. How can anyone in his/her right mind think Karyn wasn't murdered? You must have been reading James Ellroy, a dark character, a religious fanatic and an admitted pervert. No empty pill bottles were around in the living room. But they were in the bathroom cabinet. She did not hurt herself on a piece of furniture. The interior wounds were too extensive on the left side of her throat. She was murdered via the "sleeper method," in my opinion, which is supposed to be very quick. A man grabs you from behind, gets you into some kind of headlock which closes one or both carotid arteries to the brain and the victim dies. This is entirely consistent with her autopsy results. Irv Kupcinet was quick to anger if anyone suggested his daughter killed herself. As depressed as she was, Karyn didn't do it. Her red bathrobe was lying on a chair in the living room. Obviously, she didn't put it there. Someone turned the TV on for light. She heard noise in the living room and went to check it out. It's possible she never saw the face of her killer. Also, I think there was sexual contact. The killer stripped off her robe. Why would someone go to her door to let someone in and take off her bathrobe?

Whether it was connected to the Assassination or not, it was a definite murder. I did not know there was a Wikipedia entry on Karyn. I will look it up, but I did not write it. I've spent years trying to get her noticed by people on the Internet, and even before that. It's possible the killer is dead. There are so many possibilities. But she was murdered. Irv Kupcinet and Essee always considered it a murder. And Kup would be very mad hearing someone repeat that she killed herself.

Murder

Kathy Collins

I learned last night that Karyn went to Palm Springs with Andrew Prine and friends the Assassination weekend. Irv Kupcinet, her father and Chicago columnist, called Paul Dorfman when Ruby shot Oswald. Dorfman was a slight man with a benign demeanor, as Bobby Kennedy described him in The Enemy Within. He was also Hoffa's Chicago ally.

Irv tracked down Dorfman in Palm Springs that weekend. Could Dorfman and Karyn Kupcinet have met, interacted? Could Dorfman, a man with powerful connections, have decided to stop Irv's investigation into the Chicago angle of the Kennedy Assassination? Karyn was dead 4 days later.

Kathy