Kathleen Collins
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Posts posted by Kathleen Collins
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Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh was murdered on September 10th 2003.
Lindh was popular, politically experienced and often tipped as a future Prime Minister.
The assassination occurred a few days before the Swedish referendum on the Euro. Lindh supported Sweden joining the Euro-zone. Most Swedes, as it turned out, opposed it.
Lindh, as Sweden's Foreign Minister, was an outstanding and bold advocate for international justice. She was a strong opponent of the Iraq War. She also took a position more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause than most, if not any, of her counterparts in other European countries.
Her assailant was not caught immediately, but there appears to be consensus he was the assassin, based on forensic evidence and his own confession.
His name is Mijailo Mijailovic, a young Swedish citizen of Yugoslav descent.
According to the New York Times, January 15, 2004:
''I couldn't resist the voices,'' Mijailo Mijailovic, a 25-year-old Swedish citizen of Yugoslav descent, said in a subterranean high-security court near the Stockholm city center. He was arrested on Sept. 24.The police are taking pride in bringing quick resolution to a case that reopened the self-questioning inspired by Mr. Palme's death.
Clad in a black sweatshirt and track-suit pants, Mr. Mijailovic, lightly bearded and with close-cropped hair, sat on the front bench of a brightly lit courtroom, sometimes fidgeting but speaking in even and unemotional tones after prosecutors used images taken by surveillance cameras to coax his memories of the day he stabbed Ms. Lindh.
In a confession made public last week, after earlier insisting that he was innocent, Mr. Mijailovic said he believed that the voices in his head came from Jesus Christ. He said the voices spoke in Serbian.
Prosecutors displayed photographs of the red-handled knife with its slightly bloodied four-inch blade that Mr. Mijailovic said he had thrown away as he fled the NK department store after attacking Ms. Lindh. At the time of the killing -- just before a referendum in which Sweden rejected adoption of the euro single currency, against the advice of pro-euro figures like Ms. Lindh -- some people questioned whether he had acted for political reasons. Ms. Lindh, a Social Democrat, was one of Sweden's most popular politicians and had been thought of as a potential prime minister.
But under questioning from the chief prosecutor, Krister Petersson, Mr. Mijailovic denied any political motivations. ''I'm not interested in politics,'' he said. ''It could have been someone other than Anna Lindh.''
Indeed, Mr. Mijailovic's defense lawyer, Peter Althin, demanded that murder charges against his client be withdrawn, since he had not planned the killing in advance and had not intended to take a life. ''Did the voices say anything about killing?'' Mr. Althin asked Mr. Mijailovic. ''No,'' he replied. ''Just attacking?'' Mr. Althin asked. ''Yes.''
The images from surveillance cameras showed Mr. Mijailovic crisscrossing the atrium of the department store. The images did not show the attack.
Prosecutors insisted that the stabbing had been premeditated, arguing that the images from the cameras showed Mr. Mijailovic stalking Ms. Lindh for 14 minutes. They also said sophisticated tests had revealed Mr. Mijailovic's DNA on the knife used in the killing, while traces of her blood had been found on his clothes.
Mr. Mijailovic insisted that he had not been following Ms. Lindh and had seen her only by accident. ''I was on my way out, but I took a wrong turn,'' he said. ''I saw Anna Lindh. Then the voices came.''
Since his conviction for murder, there has been a legal tussle over whether his his incarceration is served in prison or hospital.
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Overall, there is little English-language information available on the web about this sad and puzzling murder.
I wondered if anyone on the forum has a view on this - or information to share that may throw some light on the murder, which although apparently solved seems to me far from fully explained.
What is known, for instance, of the earlier life of Mijailo Mijailovic?
Is there anything in his history or background that might indicate his training as a latter-day Manchurian candidate... the 21st century equivalent of Sirhan Sirhan?
Sid, there are language translator programs online for free. They may take a limited number of words at a time, but it's better than nothing; so you'll be cutting and pasting maybe. Here is one:
www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html
Kathy
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I believe it's true. I haven't come across any debunking of it yet. If you could lead the way, that would be nice.
You can read about the evidence for and against the party here:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbrownM.htm
Madeleine Brown originally told the story on the television programme, A Current Affair (24th February, 1992)
The jovial party was just breaking up when Lyndon made an unscheduled visit. I was the most surprised by his appearance since Jesse had not mentioned anything about Lyndon's coming to Clint's. With Lyndon's hectic schedule, I never dreamed he could attend the big party. After all, he had arrived in Dallas on Tuesday to attend the Pepsi-Cola convention.
John, I think Madeline Brown made a mistake when she says that Johnson was in Dallas for the Pepsi Cola convention. Nixon was there for the Pepsi convention. Johnson was there to campaign supposedly and it was his native state. She says Johnson had been in Dallas since Tuesday to attend the convention. If he was there on Tuesday, I bet he had a lot of meetings with various individuals. You know, paving the way.
I will read the threads you have pointed out.
Kathy
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I believe it is possible that William Pawley paid for the assassination of JFK.
Pawley came from a wealthy family in the United States. During the Second World War he founded the Flying Tigers (American Volunteer Group) unit in China.
After the war Pawley held several diplomatic posts in Latin America, including being the United States Ambassador in Brazil and Peru. Pawley developed right-wing political views and was active in the Republican Party.
A close friend of CIA director Allen W. Dulles, he took part in a policy that later become known as Executive Action (a plan to remove unfriendly foreign leaders from power). Pawley played a role in the a coup d'état that overthrew the Guatemalan government of Jacobo Arbenz in 1954 after he introduced land reforms and nationalized the United Fruit Company.
In the 1950s Pawley owned an airline and a bus company in Cuba. He helped keep Fulgencio Batista in power after he lost the support of the people. After Batista was overthrown by Fidel Castro, Pawley pressurized President Eisenhower to provide military and financial help to anti-Castro Cubans based in the United States.
In the winter of 1962 Eddie Bayo claimed that two officers in the Red Army based in Cuba wanted to defect to the United States. Bayo added that these men wanted to pass on details about atomic warheads and missiles that were still in Cuba despite the agreement that followed the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Bayo had originally fought with Fidel Castro against Fulgencio Batista. He disagreed with Castro's policies after he gained power and moved to Miami and helped establish Alpha 66. His story was eventually taken up by several members of the anti-Castro community including Gerry P. Hemming, John Martino, Felipe Vidal Santiago and Frank Sturgis. Pawley became convinced that it was vitally important to help get these Soviet officers out of Cuba. To help this happen he communicated with James Eastland, the chairman of the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, about this story.
Pawley also contacted Ted Shackley, head of the CIA's JM WAVE station in Miami. Shackley decided to help Pawley organize what became known as Operation Tilt. He also assigned William (Rip) Robertson, a fellow member of the CIA in Miami, to help with the operation. David Sanchez Morales, another CIA agent, also became involved in this attempt to bring out these two Soviet officers.
In June, 1963, a small group, including Pawley, Eddie Bayo, William (Rip) Robertson, John Martino, and Richard Billings, a journalist working for Life Magazine, secretly arrived in Cuba. They were unsuccessful in their attempts to find these Soviet officers and they were forced to return to Miami. Bayo remained behind and it was rumoured that he had been captured and executed. However, his death was never reported in the Cuban press.
William Pawley died of gunshot wounds in January, 1977. Officially it was suicide but some researchers believe it was connected to the investigations being carried out by the House Select Committee on Assassinations.
John, I disagree. I believe H.L. Hunt paid for the Assassination. On another thread today, he is mentioned as having been with certain people who wanted to take back Cuba. Included with these people was Robert F. Kennedy right before his brother's death. In another thread today, H.L. Hunt was mentioned as being at the meeting at the Murchinson's house in Dallas the night before.
Kathy
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Am I the only one who thinks that the story about the party, or at least some attendees, has been largely discredited?
No, you are not alone. The story has been discredited, as has been discussed here and elsewhere. A lot of people just don't want to let it go.
I believe it's true. I haven't come across any debunking of it yet. If you could lead the way, that would be nice.
Kathy
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http://www.nypost.com/seven/05052007/gossi...ic_pagesix_.htm
"May 5, 2007 -- ADD Bruce Willis to those who don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in assassinating JFK. "They still haven't caught the guy that killed [President] Kennedy," the tough-guy star tells June's Vanity Fair. "I'll get killed for saying this, but I'm pretty sure those guys are still in power, in some form. The entire government of the United States was co-opted. But, he adds, "I don't think my opinion means jack [bleep], because I'm an actor. Why do actors think their opinions mean more because you act?""
I wish more high-profile people would come forward and say -- if they believe it -- that the government, financed by rich oil men, paid snipers to kill President Kennedy. Yes, they're still in power. One of the oil families is the Bushes. And the most incompetent Bush has been our President for nearly 8 years. The scumbag -- I hope I can say that.
Kathy
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The Psychology Of Patriotic Denial
By Tova Gabrielle
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/POPD.html
Why No One Was Asking For A Motive For The Secretive Stance Of The
Bush Administration Towards 9/11, or, "Inciting a Truth Movement"
"Regarding the historical details that prove that our country has
indeed been inclined to attack its own people for political ends, I
refer readers to historians like Howard Zinn. Herein, I offer insights
arising from my expertise in the psychologies of addiction, religious
cults, mind control, and hypnosis to explain how an entire country was
duped, and how to recover our perspectives.
Let's begin on the level of personal psychology, of which political
psychology is a manifestation. George W. Bush is a power addict and a
puppet of the factions he represents. Like many power addicts, he has a
history of alcoholism (as well as cocaine abuse). He is what is called
a "dry alcoholic"...he may not drink, but he cannot face reality either,
and therefore behaves with the same denial as one who does drink.
Alcoholics have a compulsive need to be in control of others, since
they are unable to control their own impulses and drives. They attempt
to assert control by falsely inflating themselves and their causes.
Everyone succumbs, on occasion, to denial when their pain becomes too
great, but addicts have a particularly flagrant disregard for the
truth. They cannot tolerate feelings of vulnerability and when their
recovery is not going well, they replace one addiction with another.
Having given up substance abuse, George Bush has adopted fanaticism as
a false means of control over his feelings of vulnerability. This is a
typical response of people seeking to escape the shame of their past
and their disorganized, chaotic experience. Constricting themselves
within the bounds of a rigid, fundamentalist, ideological framework
allows such people to shelter themselves from the potentially
overwhelming levels of anxiety that may be experience during the
process healthy recovery. It allows them to substitute authoritative
quick fixes for actually having to think (rather than drink). They fail
to develop common sense and reasoning powers to heal the
disorganization and panic they experience. They are driven by a
philosophy which compels them to react first and (try not to) think
later.
Grandiosity is a hallmark addicts and alcoholics because the most
difficult thing for them to cope with is powerlessness. It doesn't
matter whether or not you believe in a higher power, author John
Bradshaw tells people in recovery, "just that you know that you aren't
it." When in power, theses people deal with their feelings of
powerlessness by continually attempting to convince themselves and
anyone opposed to them that they are all right and others are all
wrong. Their sense of loss and defeat are so strong that they need to
believe, like children needing their parents' divine approval, that
they have "God' on their side.
Polarized, black-and-white thinking is the hallmark of mental illness.
Bush and his carefully chosen, like-minded mob represent a huge faction
of similar-minded fanatics who project their rigid, fear-based internal
structures upon others within a black-and-white, good-versus-evil
framework of thinking. Bradshaw writes that alcoholics don't have
relationships, but instead take hostages. We citizens are expected to
observe the unspoken but classic rules that protect the alcoholic head
of the family: Don't talk, don't think, don't feel.
Such addictive scripts help maintain the power and facade of
alcoholics and addicts. And the amazing part is that we, as citizens,
may unknowingly play our parts as enablers, just like children of
alcoholics. Sadly, many of us, acting as virtual children of
alcoholics, play our parts in maintaining what we hope to be some
measure of stability in our systems. As loyal children in an alcoholic
family, many people will rigidly deny the extent to which our
parental powers will go to manipulate and control us with fear. The
defenses we may employ in our denials arise in infancy and are only
finally uprooted through therapy or through insight that is willing to
upset the systems we internalized.
Denial is a primitive defense; children understandably don't
acknowledge the alcoholic father's insanity...after all he's the only
father they've got. The Bush administration depends upon our continued
fear and isolation from like-minded others to keep us bonded to it in
ignorance of what it does. Inflated patriotism is but a misguided
defense of a system that has the will and means to destroy us for
power, just like an alcoholic parent will sacrifice all for drink. As
long as we feel overwhelmed and disempowered, we won't investigate our
intuitions or connect the dots.
We have learned to negatively hallucinate, that is, to not see the
obvious, when it contradicts our beliefs. We have been raised and bred
in institutions and families where the very persons preparing and
conditioning us for the âreal world have hidden their own skeletons in
our closets. Without our realizing it, their shames, secrets, and fears
become our inheritances."
****************************************************************************
Jack, thanks for posting this. I agree with it. I am an adult child of an alcoholic. And this essay said alcoholics don't have relationships, rather they take you hostage. Funny, I always thought my old man was taking us hostage. That's the exact word. Bush isn't qualified to be President of this country. He has too many problems. In my opinion, he will go down as being the worst President we ever had. I hope we survive him and the people behind his presidency.
Alcoholics have a compulsive need to control others. I can just say how true that is. Everything revolves around the alcoholic. You have to walk around on eggshells, hoping not to do or say anything that pushes the trigger, that makes him want to get bombed and physically and verbally abusive all night long.
This essay has a terrific insight into George W. Bush, the dry alcoholic.
Kathy
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E. Howard Hunt's "confession" via his son includes the info that a Corsican gunman fired the fatal shot from the grassy knoll. So we're back to the Lucien Sarti story. Does this impugn the credibility of Hunt's confession, or does it lend credibility to the Sarti tale?
I have come to doubt that the fatal shot came from the grassy knoll (given the angle, and the better head-on shot from the south), and if Hunt had told of a south-knoll gunman, instead of the Corsican behind the fence, that would have settled it for me.
As it is, I thought that the French connection story had been more or less discredited. Would anyone familiar with it (and anyone else) care to comment?
Having read several books on Sarti and the Corsican Heroin Trade convinced me that it was at least plausible that he was involved in the JFK affair. Hunt's mentioning Cord Meyer, Morales and Phiillips also appears to be a good fit based on my thinking that many of the best assassination books I've read over the years had parts of the story correct. I'd enjoy hearing the opinions of Fonzi, Hancock and a few others as to their take on Hunt's confession.
I listened to the excerpt, which is about six or seven minutes out of twenty and it's pretty convincing for me. I'd like to hear the rest of it.
Craig Roberts, an expert on snipers and shooting, expressed his opinion in the past that he felt the kill shot was a tangential shot from the front/side, which was Badgeman's location. After viewing the headshot in slowmotion dozens or more times I tend to agree. And if one can get a really clear print of Badgeman and compare it to the photo of Lucien Sarti there appear to me to be obvious facial similarities, such as ear, eye and hairline shape.
Here's badgeman whom I believe was a Dallas cop or dressed like one of them. Also, I read on another forum the opinion that badgeman was Officer Tippit. I don't know who posted this. I think this is from another forum, but here's a colorized version of badgeman.
Kathy
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On the evening before the assassination, Clint Murchison, the Dallas oil millionaire, threw a big party. In attendance were HL Hunt, Richard Nixon, and J Edgar Hoover. At the end of the party, a private meeting is held and Lyndon Johnson is told that he will become President the following day.
Am I the only one who thinks that the story about the party, or at least some attendees, has been largely discredited?
Seems like I've read that both LBJ and Nixon were photographed elsewhere and could not have been at Murchison's.
Myra, it's well known that Nixon was in Dallas to speak to the Pepsi-Cola convention and the owner of the business was Joan Crawford. The night before the Assassination, he was seen dining with Crawford in a Dallas restaurant. Supposedly a photo was taken of the 2 together. I've never seen it. This was around 11 pm.
After the meal, Nixon brought Crawford back to the hotel they each were staying at. He then got a ride to the Murchinson's home near Dallas. There was another Murchinson home farther away. But these powerful individuals, according to Madeline Brown, LBJ's girlfriend, showed up at the closer home.
She wrote a book about her affair with Johnson called Texas in the Morning. I believe she was interviewed on TMWKK. She is now deceased. She said LBJ arrived last and went into the meeting room. She sat outside and suddenly the doors opened and LBJ, red-faced, came over to her and said, "After tomorrow, those Kennedy boys will never embarrass me again." I believe the word was "embarrass." I don't know where LBJ was that he got there late.
Kathy
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Bill wrote: "Then there's what Mallon appropriately calls "The Limbo Hour," between the time of the assassination and the apprehension of Oswald, shortly after which Michael Paine is overheard talking on the telephone with either his father or his wife, and someone says that they know Oswald didn't do it and know who is REALLY responsible, but we are left in the dark as to who that responsible party is."
Bill, I don't remember if it was in Mallon's book or elsewhere, but somewhere I've seen that comment explained. They didn't mean that Oswald didn't do it, but that Marina had driven him to it. De Mohrenschildt's book takes a similar approach. IF Lee did it...it's because his bitchy wife drove him to it. This is unfair to Marina, no doubt, but it's interesting that the men closest to the situation immediately blamed her. She was apparently a bit of a shrew.
I know Norman Mailer is detested in Kennedy Researchers' circles, but the KGB records he could get says the Oswalds' apartment was bugged. Mailer cites transcripts in which Marina belittled LHO constantly. In my recollection, he didn't beat her up, at least not in Russia.
Kathy
Not long before 9/11 Mohamid Atta's American girlfriend broke up with him, and he killed her cat and kittins, but that didn't stimulate him to fly a plane into the WTC.
Whether Marina belittled LHO or he beat her has no bearing on what happened at Dealey Plaza, or whether LHO was the patsy or the sole assassin.
It was preordained by other than Oswald and JFK would have died no matter what LHO did or thought.
BK
Hah? Are you saying that President Kennedy's death was an Act of God?
Kathy
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Also on here recently there was another thread where someone
wondered why the lights were seen above the pergola.....but they were not lights,they were in the
background in the distance....in the parking lot...But you would have sworn that they were
there on top...background structures and trajectories...they call it.
B....
Bernice, that was me trying to figure out those lights on the arcade. It turned out to be railway lights or signals from behind the arcade, which were movable.
End of a mystery.
Kathy
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Bill wrote: "Then there's what Mallon appropriately calls "The Limbo Hour," between the time of the assassination and the apprehension of Oswald, shortly after which Michael Paine is overheard talking on the telephone with either his father or his wife, and someone says that they know Oswald didn't do it and know who is REALLY responsible, but we are left in the dark as to who that responsible party is."
Bill, I don't remember if it was in Mallon's book or elsewhere, but somewhere I've seen that comment explained. They didn't mean that Oswald didn't do it, but that Marina had driven him to it. De Mohrenschildt's book takes a similar approach. IF Lee did it...it's because his bitchy wife drove him to it. This is unfair to Marina, no doubt, but it's interesting that the men closest to the situation immediately blamed her. She was apparently a bit of a shrew.
I know Norman Mailer is detested in Kennedy Researchers' circles, but the KGB records he could get said the Oswalds' apartment was bugged. Mailer cites transcripts in which Marina belittled LHO constantly. In my recollection, he didn't beat her up, at least not in Russia.
Kathy
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Without being critical of anyone, if the idea is for clarification over further muddying, I think this is a good time to take stock.
We now have three names Bishop was supposedly born with:
John O'Hare (cited by various writers)
Clarence Ward Bishop (cited here by James)
Bill (William?) Bennett (cited as birth name possibility here by Peter)
There is also the very interesting tidbit thrown in by Robert of a William C ("Bill") Bishop being on the Sportsdrome list. Checking that list, it provides these further details from the '63 City Directory : Bank Manager, Brook Mays Music, 2927 W. Colorado Blvd., Dallas, TX. 1966 City...
I also want to throw this is in to see if it goes anywhere. From the letter posted by James, I found the following spelling/typo errors:
compleat (complete) X 2
moral (morale)
personal (personnel)
excepted (accepted)
proberly (probably)
loosing (losing)
(and as already pointed out, he spelled the name of the addressee two different ways)
Does anyone have a list of Oswald spelling mistakes to check against this list to see if he mispelled the same words in the same way?
There is a section near the back of Oswald's Tale by Norman Mailer. I did not find the specific words you mentioned, but here's some other mispellings:
identifecation (identification)
foto (photo)
registring (registering)
pacticular (particular)
carier (carrier)
passprts (passports)
chrage (charge)
investagation (investigation)
allso (also)
Urakranion, Urakrinuien (Ukranian)
Kathy
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When Dorothy Kilgallen died, her best girlfriend and confidante, Florabel Muir, died 2 days later. No autopsy. Kilgallen was the only reporter to interview Ruby, alone for a few minutes.
Kathy
I wish to correct an error I found in this post of mine. I don't know who Florabel Muir is. The woman who was Kilgallen's confidante was Florence Pritchett. She died 2 days after Dorothy. They did not do an autopsy and chalked it up to natural causes. She knew what Dorothy knew about the assassination. Sorry that I provided incorrect info.
Kathy
When I raised this issue on my website and on this forum, Florence Pritchett's son, Earl Smith III, said that she had been suffering from leukemia. The interesting thing about Pritchett was she was married to Earl Smith, the former US ambassador to Cuba and right-wing activist. It is possible that she was Dorothy Kilgallen's main source for her proposed book on the assassination. She was also probably the source for Kilgallen's stories about the CIA being involved in the assassination plots against Castro that were reported in New York American. Florence was definitely a source on JFK as they two had been lovers since 1944. In fact, JFK would have married her if she had not been married before. You can read all about this fascinating woman here:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKsmithF.htm
Thanks for the info and the link. In one section of the biography it says Dorothy Kilgallen did not have either a lethal dose of barbituates or a lethal dose of alcohol. But the combination killed her. This reminds me of the Anna Nichole case. Cyril Wecht and others said the same thing -- that Anna did not have a lethal dose of any drug, but in combination the drugs she had in her system killed her. (Plus she was suffering from some bad infection and her body temperature went up to 105.)
Another thing, and this could be applied to Irv Kupcinet:
"In 1965 Dorothy Kilgallen managed to obtain a private interview with Jack Ruby. She told friends that she had information that would "break the case wide open". Aware of what had happened to Bill Hunter and Jim Koethe, Kilgallen handed her interview notes to Florence Smith. She told friends that she had obtained information that Ruby and J. D. Tippit were friends and that David Ferrie was involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
On 8th November, 1965, Dorothy Kilgallen, was found dead in her New York apartment. She was fully dressed and sitting upright in her bed. The police reported that she had died from taking a cocktail of alcohol and barbiturates."
Kupcinet, a Chicago columnist, was trying to get as much info as possible on the Chicago angle re the assassination. His daughter was murdered on Thanksgiving 1963. The homicide was never solved.
Kathy
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The recent documentary about FBI surveillance of John Lennon is available to view for free online, http://www.tv-links.co.uk/link.do/4/1806/2539/17548/28435
I would thoroughly reccommend it.
It features interviews with Yoko Ono, John Dean, Geraldo Riviera, Bobby Seale, Noam Chomsky, G Gordon Liddy, Tariq Ali, John Sinclair and a whole host of others.
Site for the movie, http://www.theusversusjohnlennon.com/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478049/
John
I can't find the documentary from the sites you mentioned. Where exactly is it?
Kathy
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Terry, no matter what I do, no matter how much you complain, I am still me and you are still you. We see things in different ways. This goes for Bernice as well. The Kennedy Assassination draws me in all the time. I can't shake it.
You don't like my "sensationalism." What you may call sensationalism differs from my meaning of the word. I do not like autopsy photos or x-rays, etc. That's too grisly and to me sensationalistic. How many other members here have done first research? My first research was the Internet. I used it and played some hunches and found not only Donald Norton, but Ralph Geb too. I did not know of Ralph Geb till I looked the name up on the computer. He was involved in setting Harvey Oswald up.
Basically what I'm saying is ignore my posts, since they bother you. You can't change me and I can't change you. I will continue as before.
And please: Don't ever cough up manipulative DellaRosa to me again.
Kathy
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[
I concur completely with this view. I also don't think we will ever know the who, just that it was the most powerful and they knew they could count on the media to ignore the lack of investigation. Perhaps the lesson of Dorothy Kilgallen also loomed large. I think it is great that some of today's journalists like David Talbot and Jefferson Morley have taken such an interest. But neither of them are mainstream. Even Sidney Blumenthal who was once knowledgeable on this subject ignores it now. Moved on I guess.
Dawn
I think it's interesting to examine the cases of Jim Koethe, journalist in Jack Ruby's apartment the night of Ruby shooting Oswald; and Karyn Kupcinet, daughter of a powerful journalist and TV talk show host in Chicago, Irv Kupcinet.
Karyn was killed first. An unsolved murder, the apartment, in my opinion, made to look ransacked. Only thing missing: A large number of methamphetamines (Desoxyn) from her medicine chest. What about her fur coat hanging prominently in her closet, which was opened?
Then Jim Koethe. Dead from a karate chop to the neck less than a year later. Valuables were stolen, but some doubt if the man caught with some of his stolen merchandise, did the killing. If the 2 crimes are related, in Koethe's death, they learned to steal the valuables.
When Dorothy Kilgallen died, her best girlfriend and confidante, Florabel Muir, died 2 days later. No autopsy. Kilgallen was the only reporter to interview Ruby, alone for a few minutes.
Kathy
I wish to correct an error I found in this post of mine. I don't know who Florabel Muir is. The woman who was Kilgallen's confidante was Florence Pritchett. She died 2 days after Dorothy. They did not do an autopsy and chalked it up to natural causes. She knew what Dorothy knew about the assassination. Sorry that I provided incorrect info.
Kathy
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"I didn't come on and say "John Kennedy was married before he married Jackie." Did I? I wanted to know if someone knew about this. I kept getting the one source: Hersh. Do I still have to walk on eggshells around here? Bill Kelly asked me in so many words to lay off Donald O. Norton, the man who claimed he was Lee Oswald, which would help substantiate the Harvey and Lee theory. I have done a lot of research on Norton, but John Armstrong has done a lot more and will not release what his evidence suggests. I have 3 main areas here: Donald O. Norton, who supposedly lives 2 hours away from me; the unsolved murder of Karyn Kupcinet, who was grabbed from behind and had her carotid artery blocked till she suffocated; And Marilyn Monroe, whose death was highly suspicious."
And that, should have been suffice to say that Hersh was the perpetrator of the rumor.
Hersh wasn't the perpetrator of the rumor; rather, he was the perpetuator. I couldn't find anything else. Furthermore, I didn't smear Kennedy whether he married before or not. Actually, given his sex drive and a good Catholic upbringing, he may have married her and, as someone suggested, Joe paid the Catholic Church to annul it. Where's the smear? The accusation? Why does this matter to you so much? Did someone die because of this?
You and I are interested in different things. You're only placing value judgements on me. As for researching, I guess I should get in my car and drive to Donald Norton's town to see his properties, which I've already been castigated for. With the help of Google's Earth, I presented public record photos of his properties. Two people here grew indignant. So how can I research something without angering people? And if he still owns charter boats, maybe I could pay him to take me for an outing and find stuff out about him and look at him carefully. It was "you know who" who told me about Donald Norton. We were going to take a drive there. Now I'm not allowed to speak his hallowed name.
Shouldn't that alone have made it crystal clear? When the same person's name keeps coming back at you?
But where did he get it from? I heard this story long ago.
And, the simple reason that all of these theories of yours smack of sensationalism is merely due to the way you insist on clinging to the explanations afforded you, yet have somehow managed to misinterpret, through your own skewed use of methodology and logistical processing. Though I loathe to bring this up, sources from which you've already overstepped your bounds, and continue to misuse any information they've been generous enough to have shared, and I'm not referring to tabloid journalism here, either.
You know, it takes two to tango. I didn't misuse any of his information. And, believe me, it was always "sensational." I had a friendship with him. It was different than being a moderator. He took more than he gave. Don't fall for his bullxxxx.
Kathy
Excuse me, Kathy. But, I wasn't making inferences to any singular individual, here. You've obviously collaborated with other people in your arena of research, haven't you? I'm sorry if I didn't make myself absolutely clear on this because it seems to me that you've mentioned quite a few other sources you've tracked, placed calls to, or sought out for clarification at some point along the way. Is that not true? Therefore, to assume otherwise, or to miscontrue my line of inquiry as some sort of isolated incident involving a mutual acquaintance, is presumptuous on your part, and the furthest thing from which I had originally intended. In fact, I find it out of line to continually refer to this person out of context, as you seem wont to do here on this forum.
The main thing that drew me to Donald O. Norton was his supposed geographical closeness to me. The photos of him young (the Yearbook Picture) came from the other Forum. But I found current info and pictures of him and Ralph Geb just following a hunch. I was very shocked at what I found. What shocked me next -- no one cared. I had concrete evidence and no one cared.
Regarding Karyn Kupcinet, I followed that case since the '60's, but I didn't know her name. I came upon a People mag about unsolved celebrity murders 3 years after the mag was published. The second I saw her face, I knew who she was. I showed the article to my mother, and she recognized her and Prine. (She didn't know she was Irv Kup's daughter.) It was a TV show we saw approx 1964. I'll take the credit for this: I introduced her on the Internet in the early '90's. I then came into contact with a columnist who knew the case. So I discussed it with him. James Ellroy came out with an essay about her and I learned things I didn't know. He was on True Hollywood Story about Karyn. I didn't care for his tone or his conclusion. -- Now are these the people whom I collaborated with?
I have a collection of magazines, videos, photos, etc., that cost me a small fortune. I hope that I helped Paul Fecteau on his yahoo website with my insights on Karyn. He is writing a book on her. Sam Kashner has written Sinatraland, in which she's a character "with the face of a Persian cat." But do not infer that someone else is doing research on Karyn and this is where I got my info on her.
The individual you alluded to saw True Hollywood Story about Karyn and said at that time, "If I was 10 years younger I'd investigate that murder." I said why and he said Mark Goddard (best known from Lost in Space) did something because of his body language. He definitely was squirming, but I don't know why. The individual thought Goddard had a secret affair with her and killed her. I don't agree. Goddard discovered the body with his then wife.
More to the point, what do you care which aspects of the assassination I gravitate to? I suggest to you and Bernice please use the function that blocks my posts from your sight and awareness. Have I explained myself to you enough? I'm not going to ask your permission for what I post. And I suspect you've already "smeared" me via emails/private messages to other members when I first showed up here.
And the Marilyn Monroe murder. I'd like to know who did that.
Kathy
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"I didn't come on and say "John Kennedy was married before he married Jackie." Did I? I wanted to know if someone knew about this. I kept getting the one source re Hersh. Do I still have to walk on eggshells around here? Bill Kelly asked me in so many words to lay off Donald O. Norton, the man who claimed he was Lee Oswald, which would help substantiate the Harvey and Lee theory. I have done a lot of research on Norton, but John Armstrong has done a lot more and will not release what his evidence suggests. I have 3 main areas here: Donald O. Norton, who supposedly lives 2 hours away from me; the unsolved murder of Karyn Kupcinet, who was grabbed from behind and had her carotid artery blocked till she suffocated; And Marilyn Monroe, whose death was highly suspicious."
And that, should have been suffice to say that Hersh was the perpetrator of the rumor.
Hersh wasn't the perpetrator of the rumor; rather, he was the perpetuator. I couldn't find anything else. Furthermore, I didn't smear Kennedy whether he married before or not. Actually, given his sex drive and a good Catholic upbringing, he may have married her and, as someone suggested, Joe paid the Catholic Church to annul it. Where's the smear? The accusation? Why does this matter to you so much? Did someone die because of this? You and I are interested in different things. You're only placing value judgements on me. As for researching, I guess I should get in my car and drive to Donald Norton's town to see his properties, which I've already been castigated for. With the help of Google's Earth, I presented public record photos of his properties. Two people here grew indignant. So how can I research something without angering people? And if he still owns charter boats, maybe I could pay him to take me for an outing and find stuff out about him and look at him carefully. It was "you know who" who told me about Donald Norton. We were going to take a drive there. Now I'm not allowed to speak his hallowed name.
Shouldn't that alone have made it crystal clear? When the same person's name keeps coming back at you?
But where did he get it from? I heard this story long ago.
And, the simple reason that all of these theories of yours smack of sensationalism is merely due to the way you insist on clinging to the explanations afforded you, yet have somehow managed to misinterpret, through your own skewed use of methodology and logistical processing. Though I loathe to bring this up, sources from which you've already overstepped your bounds, and continue to misuse any information they've been generous enough to have shared, and I'm not referring to tabloid journalism here, either.
You know, it takes two to tango. I didn't misuse any of his information. And, believe me, it was always "sensational." I had a friendship with him. It was different than being a moderator. He took more than he gave. Don't fall for his bs.
Kathy
Edited language.
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Strike "constructed," add "renovated".
How about you also strike "aborted," or would that bring the known facts too close for comfort?
In another thread, I was criticized for hurling an accusation at President Kennedy. There is only one accusation I will hurl. I think -- although it was again his brother's doing -- he treated Frank Sinatra horribly. Sinatra worked so hard to get Kennedy elected. Then Bobby decides Sinatra's linked with the Mob. Did he say this before the Convention? Of course not. Frank did cartwheels for Kennedy and Bobby deemed him no good. Frank had set up a helipad and some rooms for the President. In the windup, he cancels and goes to right wing Bing Crosby's house instead. He and Marilyn in the guest house of one of the worst fathers the world has known. He told his daughter Mary if she wasn't a virgin when she married, he would cut her out of his will and never speak to her again. What a creep. A secret alcoholic and a good Catholic. They seem to go hand in hand -- my opinion, of course. And, btw, 2 of his sons committed suicide. His left his fortune to his sons, when they reached the age of 65. Gary Crosby died at age 64.
Kathy
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Where is the proof that they were ever married, and the proof that they were ever bigamists......?
Documentation, please....
B....
Bernice, I agree with you. I've been trying to find proof. Supposedly there's some guest list or pamphlet at the time where there's a mention of their names -- apparently, she as "Mrs. John F. Kennedy." Probably some other books mention this rumor.
Kathy
Here is more info on President Kennedy's alleged marriage to Durie Malcolm.
"Consider, for example, Hersh's finding that JFK was a bigamist. The rumor began circulating in the extreme right-wing press in 1961 that in 1947, JFK, then a congressman, had secretly married Durie Malcolm, a Palm Beach socialite. Both JFK and Malcolm denied the story, and when it persisted, JFK asked Ben Bradlee, then at Newsweek, to investigate it. Bradlee determined it was a false story emanating from an error in a flawed book of genealogy (which even spelled Malcolm's name incorrectly). Some 35 years later, Hersh resurrected the story, not on the basis of any witness or document to the alleged marriage but on the basis of a piece of conversation that he managed to elicit from a 79-year-old Palm Beach resident, Charles Spalding. Spalding, who, though interviewed many times before over 50 years, never before claimed a role, now told Hersh that he knew about the supposed first marriage because he had himself eliminated the record of it ! at the Palm Beach County Courthouse, saying, according to Hersh! , "I went out there and removed the papers." Presumably, in previous interviews after JFK's death, he had not remembered this extraordinary (and criminal) act.
But how reliable is Spalding's new 1997 memory of this incident that supposedly happened in 1947? Before Hersh interviewed him, Spalding had problems with his ability to recall routine information, which Hersh generously describes as an "impairment of his short-term memory." Such a deficiency notwithstanding, this piece of recovered memory about JFK stands or falls on a simple test. If the 1947 marriage registry in Palm Beach County, which was then handwritten and bound, was marred or missing a page, Spalding's story could be valid. If on the other hand the registry was intact and the entries consecutive, Spalding's memory of removing the papers could not be any more valid than the forged archive of Monroe letters. As it turned out, Hersh and his investigators were unable to find any such gap in the marriage records nor, for that matter, any record of a marriage application, which had to be made three days before the ceremony. Nevertheless, on this piece of recovered memory ! from a person who Hersh knew suffered memory lapses and whose recollection was impeached by an investigation of the records, he asserts in "The Dark Side of Camelot," as established fact, that both JFK and his brother Robert "had lied in their denials to newspapermen and the public about Jack Kennedy's long-rumored first marriage to a Palm Beach socialite," that JFK's marriage to Jackie was not a legal union and that his children were born out of wedlock." -- from Edward Jay Epstein's review of Hersh's book.
www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/hersh.htm
For the record, Durie Malcolm has always denied any veracity of the rumor.
Kathy
**********************************************************************
"For the record, Durie Malcolm has always denied any veracity of the rumor."
Shouldn't that carry a modicum of weight, considering the circumstances? Or, are you simply suggesting we go along with some purported story, on behalf of the press, that Malcolm might have been paid off by the Kennedys to say just that?
"Consider, for example, Hersh's finding that JFK was a bigamist. The rumor began circulating in the extreme right-wing press in 1961 that in 1947, JFK, then a congressman, had secretly married Durie Malcolm, a Palm Beach socialite. Both JFK and Malcolm denied the story, and when it persisted, JFK asked Ben Bradlee, then at Newsweek, to investigate it. Bradlee determined it was a false story emanating from an error in a flawed book of genealogy (which even spelled Malcolm's name incorrectly). Some 35 years later, Hersh resurrected the story, not on the basis of any witness or document to the alleged marriage but on the basis of a piece of conversation that he managed to elicit from a 79-year-old Palm Beach resident, Charles Spalding. Spalding, who, though interviewed many times before over 50 years, never before claimed a role, now told Hersh that he knew about the supposed first marriage because he had himself eliminated the record of it ! at the Palm Beach County Courthouse, saying, according to Hersh! , "I went out there and removed the papers." Presumably, in previous interviews after JFK's death, he had not remembered this extraordinary (and criminal) act.
But how reliable is Spalding's new 1997 memory of this incident that supposedly happened in 1947? Before Hersh interviewed him, Spalding had problems with his ability to recall routine information, which Hersh generously describes as an "impairment of his short-term memory." Such a deficiency notwithstanding, this piece of recovered memory about JFK stands or falls on a simple test. If the 1947 marriage registry in Palm Beach County, which was then handwritten and bound, was marred or missing a page, Spalding's story could be valid. If on the other hand the registry was intact and the entries consecutive, Spalding's memory of removing the papers could not be any more valid than the forged archive of Monroe letters. As it turned out, Hersh and his investigators were unable to find any such gap in the marriage records nor, for that matter, any record of a marriage application, which had to be made three days before the ceremony. Nevertheless, on this piece of recovered memory ! from a person who Hersh knew suffered memory lapses and whose recollection was impeached by an investigation of the records, he asserts in "The Dark Side of Camelot," as established fact, that both JFK and his brother Robert "had lied in their denials to newspapermen and the public about Jack Kennedy's long-rumored first marriage to a Palm Beach socialite," that JFK's marriage to Jackie was not a legal union and that his children were born out of wedlock." -- from Edward Jay Epstein's review of Hersh's book."
Kathy. All you've managed to do here is to paraphase a re-hash of the same thing you posted above, which is nothing more that a hearsay smear. This is sensationalism at its worst and most incidious, on the part of an Operation Mockingbird "dupe," which is all Hersh apparently does for a living, Nobel Prize winner, not withstanding. You see, when you continue to post these smears it makes you appear as no better than they are. Why? Because all you're seemingly serving to do is parrot their lies, and tending to lend credibility to their insinuations by asking us to prove them wrong, for you.
You should take Bernice's advice about finding some substantiated proof to counter these attacks, instead of repeating the same allegations, which only serves to make you seem like a synchophant of these harpies. Remember the old adage, "Don't be part of the problem. Be part of the solution." In other words, why continually present the problem, without offering a solution? Which is how it appears to some folks, here. And, this is not meant to be taken as any kind of an attack, mind you. Just a suggestion.
Terry and Bernice: I wasn't attacking President Kennedy. I was trying to find a source for the marriage of John rumor. I have never made any accusations against Kennedy. Never, never, never. I have said things about his brother, Bobby, namely that imo he was his brother's worst enemy. I could go into further detail, but I will refrain, although I cared for that man very much. Why would I be on this Forum everyday?
For instance, I have searched, requested on eBay's Want It Now, and have asked if someone on this Forum knows where I may find a specific photo of Robert Kennedy, which I saw in the past. That's the photo of he and his wife and some children, going to church, taken at 9:30 am, in Gilroy, CA. This picture was taken on the morning it was made known, around dawn PT, that Marilyn Monroe died. I have searched the Internet and cannot find that picture, or haven't as yet.
I didn't come on and say "John Kennedy was married before he married Jackie." Did I? I wanted to know if someone knew about this. I kept getting the one source re Hersh. Do I still have to walk on eggshells around here? Bill Kelly asked me in so many words to lay off Donald O. Norton, the man who claimed he was Lee Oswald, which would help substantiate the Harvey and Lee theory. I have done a lot of research on Norton, but John Armstrong has done a lot more and will not release what his evidence suggests. I have 3 main areas here: Donald O. Norton, who supposedly lives 2 hours away from me; the unsolved murder of Karyn Kupcinet, who was grabbed from behind and had her carotid artery blocked till she suffocated; And Marilyn Monroe, whose death was highly suspicious.
I don't know what you people want from me, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone bully me out of here. You call my interests "sensationalism." Being as interested in President Kennedy's assassination as we all are is sensational enough. At least that's what people think when they learn of my interest.
You have a science background. I have a literary one. We're coming from different arenas. I don't need you, Terry, or you, Bernice, to tell me what to post or be interested in. This harkens back to an earlier time. I feel like I'm surrounded by sharks. The only way to handle a shark is to belt it in the head.
Kathy
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Kathleen, I don't think Gary or the museum has/had anything to do with the limo rides. If you're talking about the one that puts you into a replica of Kennedy's Lincoln, it was run by a guy by the name of Paul Krute, and they stopped a long time ago. Don't know what happened to the car itself.
JWK
Thanks for telling me about the limo rides. Gary Mack also said he wasn't responsible.
Kathy
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Where is the proof that they were ever married, and the proof that they were ever bigamists......?
Documentation, please....
B....
Bernice, I agree with you. I've been trying to find proof. Supposedly there's some guest list or pamphlet at the time where there's a mention of their names -- apparently, she as "Mrs. John F. Kennedy." Probably some other books mention this rumor.
Kathy
Here is more info on President Kennedy's alleged marriage to Durie Malcolm.
"Consider, for example, Hersh's finding that JFK was a bigamist. The rumor began circulating in the extreme right-wing press in 1961 that in 1947, JFK, then a congressman, had secretly married Durie Malcolm, a Palm Beach socialite. Both JFK and Malcolm denied the story, and when it persisted, JFK asked Ben Bradlee, then at Newsweek, to investigate it. Bradlee determined it was a false story emanating from an error in a flawed book of genealogy (which even spelled Malcolm's name incorrectly). Some 35 years later, Hersh resurrected the story, not on the basis of any witness or document to the alleged marriage but on the basis of a piece of conversation that he managed to elicit from a 79-year-old Palm Beach resident, Charles Spalding. Spalding, who, though interviewed many times before over 50 years, never before claimed a role, now told Hersh that he knew about the supposed first marriage because he had himself eliminated the record of it ! at the Palm Beach County Courthouse, saying, according to Hersh! , "I went out there and removed the papers." Presumably, in previous interviews after JFK's death, he had not remembered this extraordinary (and criminal) act.
But how reliable is Spalding's new 1997 memory of this incident that supposedly happened in 1947? Before Hersh interviewed him, Spalding had problems with his ability to recall routine information, which Hersh generously describes as an "impairment of his short-term memory." Such a deficiency notwithstanding, this piece of recovered memory about JFK stands or falls on a simple test. If the 1947 marriage registry in Palm Beach County, which was then handwritten and bound, was marred or missing a page, Spalding's story could be valid. If on the other hand the registry was intact and the entries consecutive, Spalding's memory of removing the papers could not be any more valid than the forged archive of Monroe letters. As it turned out, Hersh and his investigators were unable to find any such gap in the marriage records nor, for that matter, any record of a marriage application, which had to be made three days before the ceremony. Nevertheless, on this piece of recovered memory ! from a person who Hersh knew suffered memory lapses and whose recollection was impeached by an investigation of the records, he asserts in "The Dark Side of Camelot," as established fact, that both JFK and his brother Robert "had lied in their denials to newspapermen and the public about Jack Kennedy's long-rumored first marriage to a Palm Beach socialite," that JFK's marriage to Jackie was not a legal union and that his children were born out of wedlock." -- from Edward Jay Epstein's review of Hersh's book.
www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/hersh.htm
For the record, Durie Malcolm has always denied any veracity of the rumor.
Kathy
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I have no doubt that Gary Mack is doing a superlative job as Curator of the Sixth Floor Museum. I just discovered that Gary has aquired copies of all six films of the shooting of Lee Oswald and that that they will be available for viewing by researchers. This is just the kind of thing that we would expect a good curator to do, and I am sure countless other examples could be recited.
But Gary Mack goes way above and beyond the requirements of being a good museum curator in his efforts to assist researchers. Whatever his own opinions of the case may be, he is obviously deeply committed to facilitating the ongoing JFK inquiry.
The day he was appointed Curator was a fortunate day indeed for Assassination researchers.
I disagree. The "Sixth Floor Museum," the limo rides and DVD selling are all too Hollywood for me. Next there'll be a theme park based on the assassination.
Kathy
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Where is the proof that they were ever married, and the proof that they were ever bigamists......?
Documentation, please....
B....
Bernice, I agree with you. I've been trying to find proof. Supposedly there's some guest list or pamphlet at the time where there's a mention of their names -- apparently, she as "Mrs. John F. Kennedy." Probably some other books mention this rumor.
Kathy
Don't bug me
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
I always hear of these tapes of people -- Monroe and John Kennedy/Bobby Kennedy, especially. Well, they've been dead for 44 or so years now. So bring on the tapes. Who has them? Where are they?
Bernard (?) Spindel supposedly taped Monroe's phoneline and her house and captured the last night of Marilyn's life. As Senator, Robert Kennedy conducted a raid of Spindel's house (which Spindel taped) circa 1967 for the tapes. According to Robert Slatzer, on a phone tap someone asked, "Is she dead yet?" A new theory has come out that Marilyn's housekeeper, Eunice Murray, Peter Lawford and Monroe's psychiatrist, Ralph Greenson, tried to make Marilyn fake a suicide attempt. This would ensure that the Kennedys would feel bad for her and let her join their circle once again.
What actually happened, according to this theory, was that she passed away. The voice on the phone who asked, "Is she dead yet?" was supposedly Bobby Kennedy. In other words, they tricked her into committing suicide. And that would be the end of her. The raid made the newspapers.
I don't buy this argument for a minute. It's more crap to sell books. Produce the tapes. Four and a half decades have passed. Why can't we hear them? I guess Bobby Kennedy's kids would have a different view of their father if they came out. I don't think we'll ever hear them in my lifetime, if they ever existed. Who was Spindel -- CIA, FBI?
Kathy