Kathleen Collins
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This may have been posted at some time or another, but I thought it merited a post here:
http://members.aol.com/doestar/jb.html
For the record, I think her story is 100 percent credible.
That was an amazing article I read. Fluoride causes cancer. Vaccinations in children in the early '60's were experiments. I even gleamed that the Rothchilds' were (are?) the most powerful of oil baron families. Could they have called for the Assassination? Or the Viet Nam war? I always wanted to know who was the richest family in the world. And I use fluoride everyday and I was vaccinated in the early '60's.
I can see how Judyth fits in. It's just that I believe there were 2 Oswalds, most likely cousins. Two men using the same identity. Lee Oswald set up Harvey as the Patsy. Who was the Oswald she loved? My guess is Harvey, as she identified the man killed by Ruby as being her love. Harvey, who was married to Marina and who lived in Russia.
Very interesting. But what about she learned the ancient Eygptian language and was deciphering writings on papyrus? And the Mormons were chasing her?
Kathy
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There has been so much written regarding Marilyn's "secret diary", and taped bedroom conversations of these three, along with many other "allegations" regarding these alledged relationships that a question arises that I feel that any teenager would ask.
The World knew of these alledged relationships, and Marilyn's mere exposure of this would hardly be earth shattering. This exposure would in no way be a motive for which to risk detection of murder.
I am convinced that President Kennedy had an affair with Marilyn. Written logs at the White House re visitors and incoming phone calls lead me in that direction. I think you can find this in The Goddess by Anthony Summers, an extremely depressing book. I never looked at it again because of the photo of her after her autopsy. Her death has overshadowed her extraordinary life, which is a shame.
I believe Bobby Kennedy visited her on her last day of life. Eunice Murray, the so-called housekeeper, stated to the BBC in Say Goodbye to the President, that "He was there that afternoon." Neigbors -- the Pollards -- were having a game of Bridge when he turned up without any disguise, according to them, in a convertible. Everyone had gotten up to look out the window. One of them had announced, "Here he is again." I believe you can find this in Norman Mailer's Marilyn.
Charles, when you say the World knew of these relationships, I have to tell you you're wrong. My family voted for President Kennedy. They didn't know. It wasn't till Mailer's book came out in 1973. But I agree she was a drug addict, a severe depressive, and an alcoholic. But there was little or no treatment then for a woman like that. Gail Storm had 2 TV shows in the Fifties, Oh, Susannah and My Little Margie. When they came to an end, she admitted to the world that she was an alcoholic. This was an extraordinary admission. "This Is Your Life" did a show on her. So she was very brave in telling the world about this. She might have gone to AA, but I bet she was the only woman there in those days. Maybe she went to her church.
About Monroe's diary: Bobby Kennedy could have destroyed it himself. And even if he did, she still had something of a memory, whereby she could spout what she had already written down. According to Slatzer, The Life and Curious Death of Marilyn Monroe, her file cabinets were being broken into, and the locksmith submitted a bill for these new locks to her Estate after she died. I think the Kennedys could find a way around Marilyn's problems other than killing her.
Kathy
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I however firmly believe in my other comments that "I personally feel, quite true".
Not in an attempt to change the views of any of you Robert Kennedy supporters, I felt that his actions before the sub commitee seemed "quite childish" to me....particularly his immature and ridiculous comments to Sam Giancana. I think that his personal behavior may have induced, "more" not less, support for the "bad guys". IMHO, he displayed a childish lack of class.
It was with this performance clearly in mind, that I was more than "shocked" with his appointment as Attorney General. In a great many areas, I feel that "Bobby" and Joe Sr.'s actions had more to do with JFK's assassination than aything that Jack had said or done. I further feel that his often childish "exchanges" with Hoover, and his constant and open critical comments to LBJ went a long way toward being some of the nails in the Presidents coffin.
Even though I personally "despise" Hoover and feel that LBJ was a "long time" criminal, I feel that some of the actions of Bobby, whom I refer to "in the early sixties" as a "ridiculous upstart", went far in broadening the gap between these two powerful figures and the President. Someone should have explained to Bobby, the benefits of properly attempted political manipulation. Actually, were he at all qualified, no one would have needed to. I don't feel that it is proper to show a public lack of respect to figures as powerful and prominent as LBJ and JEH. His bother certainly didn't!
I feel that Bobby had progressed "little" at the time of his confrontations with Hoffa. An arrogant lack of respect should be dispayed by "NO PUBLIC FIGURE" ! An Attorney General should behave in a manner deserving his title .....and not as a schoolboy.
I don't claim to be a psychologist, but my layman's view is that Bobby exhibited many of the characteristics of what I personally, not professionally, term "the litle man syndrome".
I certainly feel that there is good reason for Bobby to have entered a state of deep depression following his brother's murder....and considered, I have read, that he felt his (Bobby's) personal conduct may have had a significant role in the plan to murder his brother. If this is true, it may have been his foremost acknowledgement.
I am helpless to offer any comfort to you "Bobby supporters", when I say that his appointment as Attorney General may have been the greatest single political disaster of JFK's Presidency.
No! I don't feel that he was qualified....it was flagrant nepotism.....and I feel that this action had much to do with the formation of a coalition against a possible "24 year Kennedy Dynasty".
I feel that Robert's lack of maturity and sound political behavior, coupled with his deplorable manners and arrogant behavior, contributed more to his brother's downfall than any other single
person.....including the trigger pullers.
These are my personal feelings only and I am unwilling to engage in a multi paged debate regarding these points. You may each believe what you like.
Having held these opinions for almost four decades,
and having given "years" of thought to them.....
the chance of my opinion being changed is virtually non-existant. Yes, you may say that I have a "closed mind" on this issue, and I will agree !
Charlie Black
Charlie, sadly, I agree with you. I think he definitely had the little man syndrome or the Napoleon syndrome. Bobby Kennedy, as slight as he was, was on the football team at Harvard! Incredible. But that was his toughness and stubborness. Which could also lead toward danger.
Who else should have been John Kennedy's Attorney General?
I still think Bobby would have made a great President in 1968. He had changed and the country was changing. And the powers that be wouldn't have assassinated him if they didn't think he had a good chance of becoming President.
Kathy
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Guiliani hated by NY Firefighters, Rudy is using 9/11 to run for President
Rudy Guiliani meets with harsh criticism about 9/11.
http://news.aol.com/elections/president/st...990001?cid=2359
His administration's failure to provide the World Trade Center's first responders with adequate radios, a long-standing complaint from relatives of the firefighters killed when the twin towers collapsed. The Sept. 11 Commission noted the firefighters at the World Trade Center were using the same ineffective radios employed by the first responders to the 1993 terrorist attack on the trade center.
A November 2001 decision to step up removal of the massive rubble pile at ground zero. The firefighters were angered when the then-mayor reduced their numbers among the group searching for remains of their lost "brothers," focusing instead on what they derided as a "scoop and dump" approach. Giuliani agreed to increase the number of firefighters at ground zero just days after ordering the cutback.
More than 5 1/2 years later, body parts are still turning up in the trade center site.
"We want America to know what this guy meant to New York City firefighters," said Peter Gorman, head of the Uniformed Fire Officers Association. "In our experiences with this man, he disrespected us in the most horrific way."
The two-term mayor, in his appearance before the Sept. 11 Commission, said the blame for the death and destruction of Sept. 11 belonged solely with the terrorists. "There was not a problem of coordination on Sept. 11," he testified.
Giuliani was also criticized for locating the city's emergency center in 7 World Trade Center, a building that contained thousands of gallons of diesel fuel when it collapsed after the terrorist attack.
Kathy
Sorry for the double post. Kathy
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Kathy...I think you meant to put this in the Political Conspiracies section.
Jack
Thanks Jack. I have seen other threads about 9/11 here. After all, it's the same people who did it -- oil barons and their descendants.Kathy
P.S. Now I have a duplicate post on JFK Assassination. Sorry, people.
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If Harrelson was McDougaled, I'll have to change my thinking about Gedney as the tall tramp. But then what do I do about Gus? And then there's Frenchy, who bears no resemblance whatsoever to Charles Rodgers whom some researchers insist that he is.
Who took those tramp photos anyway? I think we'd be better off without them. Ditto the Z film. Say, a theory just occurred to me. The tramps altered the Z film in their train car, after Sitzman ran it to them. The old tramp (Howard, I'll bet) then took it to the sheriff's office in his paper bag.
According to this link, someone named J. Beers took the photos of the 3 Tramps.
http://www.jfk-info.com/photos1.htm
Kathy
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"I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him".
Although I very much liked John Kennedy, I have NEVER shared the "sheer adulation" that so many on this and other forums seem to display.
To listen to many of you, you often speak of the "double assassination" of JFK. The second being by those of you who seem to feel that some of the unsavory truths about JFK, RFK, and Joe Sr. should be "unmentionables". Often when I post something that is true, though unflattering about the Kennedy's, I feel that there is an attempt by
some/many for me to wash my mouth out and "run, not walk" to confession!
"Lancer" was not a Holy Knight chosen by the almighty to be THE shining example of male American virtue. To the best of my knowledge, neither were any of the Kennedy's, including Rose .
My purpose on these forums is not to "in any way",
exalt any of the Kennedy family. When I say something which I feel true, tho uncomplimentary, I have never insinuated that similar behavior was not undertaken by others of their social and financial class. And yes, I do attribute much of Kennedy success to their privileged position and the pressure and drive of Joseph SR. Do any of you feel that the Kennedy brothers fought their way up "thru the ranks"? Do ANY of you feel that RFK "earned" the position of Attorney General? There can be much said that without the forceful guidance and prodding and the introduction and support of some large sums of money from Joe Sr., that perhaps none of the "Kennedy Boys" would have reached their lofty levels.
I personally feel that unless you are able to personally disregard the truthful tho less complimentary aspects of the Kennedy's, you are labeled a Kennedy Basher.
I feel that this is a quite immature approach, and a forced reluctance to accept what is quite visible to most. I feel that Jack Kennedy brought a great deal of "Pride and Hope" to this nation during a time of crisis and severe struggle, and I personally felt quite proud for him to be my President and Commander in Chief. And for one to have great respect for The President and the office of The President, does not require that the person holding that office be elevated to "Sainthood".
The Kennedy Bothers were fine young men, as were many in this country, who shared the same strengths and weaknesses as other young men, engaged in some acts that brought pride to their families, and other acts which did not.
They were fortunate to be of a privileged family, and I feel that perhaps it will be said in the final chapter, this "privilege" endowed them with a spirit too reckless and independent, for their own welfare, and that of those whom they served.
I really don't understand why, as a result of certain recent posts by other members, that I should have responded in this manner.
This was initially about the attempted preservation of Kennedy family secrets which they have the right in most cases, to do, as do we all. Whether secrets pertaining to the President's health should be included in this, I cannot judge. I feel that some "little lies" like this had some serious and long lasting effects which influenced decisions as important and damning as JFK's autopsy.
I feel that I have nothing that I would like to retract in my obvious lack of adulation of the Kennedy Family. I never hinted that any of them should have been "fault free", but I feel that privileged position gave them a false sense of security and power, which perhaps was their undoing.
Charlie Black
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"I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him".
"Friends, Romans, and Countrymen, lend me your ears. I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him."
My purpose on these forums is not to "in any way," exalt any of the Kennedy family. When I say something which I feel true, tho uncomplimentary, I have never insinuated that similar behavior was not undertaken by others of their social and financial class. And yes, I do attribute much of Kennedy success to their privileged position and the pressure and drive of Joseph SR. Do any of you feel that the Kennedy brothers fought their way up "through the ranks"? Do ANY of you feel that RFK "earned" the position of Attorney General? There can be much said that without the forceful guidance and prodding and the introduction and support of some large sums of money from Joe Sr., that perhaps none of the "Kennedy Boys" would have reached their lofty levels.
It's unfortunate if you weren't around in the summer of 1955, when the Senate's "Rackets" Investigation Committee was in session and being televised, to have been able to have observed the two brothers in action. Especially, RFK's interrogation of these mob figures, at the time. I was only 10 years old, but got a lesson in what the "Fifth Amendment" meant. I became what you might describe as "transfixed" by these two brothers, and looked forward to 1:00 in the afternoon, just so I could watch this guy, who looked like a teenager, hammer away at these tough guys, who would pronounce the word, "incriminate" as "incrimidate." Bobby would say, "Have you, at any time, been involved with...?" And, the suspect would answer, "I refuse to answer on the grounds that the it may tend to incrimidate me." Then, JFK would say, "Let me rephrase the question for you, Sir." And, it went on like that for days.
I began to understand that you might be able to get the answer you wanted, or more importantly, get your point across, by the questions you posed to a person. And, regardless of whether they answered you, or plead "the Fifth," the body language, or lack of, was enough to lead you to draw your own conclusions. And, this was long before body language was even considered, outside of a poker game.
So, even though I was only 10, at the time, I learned a great deal about the judicial system, and the methodology used in cross-examination and inquiry on the gov. level, that I might not have had the chance to be exposed to until I got to high school. And, it was a great opportunity to have had the time, with school out of session, to observe these proceedings "live," and in action. And, even as a child of 10, I became acutely aware of this brother named "Bobby" who won me over at such a young and tender age. I was actually sad, when the proceedings ended. The same feeling you get after finishing a great book.
I have seen clips of Bobby Kennedy grilling Sam Giancana. When Bobby said to him, (paraphrase) "Are you going to answer my questions, or are you going to sit there and giggle? I thought only little girls giggled." I always thought that was the first bullet shot in Dealey Plaza. And to me, it looked like John Kennedy wished he was anywhere but there as these hearings went on. Also, there was a mobster who, for some reason, the camera could not show his face. But the body language of the man's hands told a lot. You would know better than I who that was. I don't think I was even born yet.
I loved Bobby Kennedy. My brother and I were so happy he was running. And then the inevitable (in retrospect) assassination. I couldn't talk about him for years. It was the thing we couldn't acknowledge. Until Mailer's book came out, Marilyn, which suggested she was intimate with Bobby. I don't know -- it was like a balm. And it was all right to talk about him again.
Ask Sigmund Freud...
Kathy
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Rudy Guiliani meets with harsh criticism about 9/11.
http://news.aol.com/elections/president/st...990001?cid=2359
His administration's failure to provide the World Trade Center's first responders with adequate radios, a long-standing complaint from relatives of the firefighters killed when the twin towers collapsed. The Sept. 11 Commission noted the firefighters at the World Trade Center were using the same ineffective radios employed by the first responders to the 1993 terrorist attack on the trade center.
A November 2001 decision to step up removal of the massive rubble pile at ground zero. The firefighters were angered when the then-mayor reduced their numbers among the group searching for remains of their lost "brothers," focusing instead on what they derided as a "scoop and dump" approach. Giuliani agreed to increase the number of firefighters at ground zero just days after ordering the cutback.
More than 5 1/2 years later, body parts are still turning up in the trade center site.
"We want America to know what this guy meant to New York City firefighters," said Peter Gorman, head of the Uniformed Fire Officers Association. "In our experiences with this man, he disrespected us in the most horrific way."
The two-term mayor, in his appearance before the Sept. 11 Commission, said the blame for the death and destruction of Sept. 11 belonged solely with the terrorists. "There was not a problem of coordination on Sept. 11," he testified.
Giuliani was also criticized for locating the city's emergency center in 7 World Trade Center, a building that contained thousands of gallons of diesel fuel when it collapsed after the terrorist attack.
Kathy
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"You have to stand behind the victim in order to do it. "
Not true.
There are many,many more kinds of carotid artery chokes.The only difference is the way that they are applied.
Who did you kill that you know this? -- Only kidding.
Kathy
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The greater loss suffered on 11/22/63 is measured not in a single wasted life, but in the holocaust that has ensued.
Charles
Well put Charles! And a whole series of holocausts it has been and IS still.
I'd suggest the book Conspiracy, The Plot To Stop The Kennedys by Matt Smith to anyone who wants an outline of what they were up against. It also talks about some of what they had to hide and it often was used
against them by those who were out to kill them. Whatever their peccadillos, the
y were triffling compared to the murders of the Kennedys and the mayham that has
ensued since.
When I think of the Kennedy family's silence, I wonder how Ted Kennedy copes;
especially when he had to identify the body of John Jr, whose plane, unbeknownst to many,
blew up in the sky (witnesses) on a clear night. (tomflocco.com) I also believe Ted was
set up at Chappaquiddick and almost done in by a small plane crash which broke his back
in 1964.
There was also another odd death. Years ago, Joseph III was running for Governor and his campaign chief
was his brother Michael. These two were Bobby Kennedy's sons. It was discovered that Michael was having an
affair with his underage baby-sitter. Along with Joseph's annulment by the, IMO, corrupt Catholic Church, and Michael's
sexual escapades, Joseph had to quit his run for Governor. Shortly before Michael met his
death on the ski slopes, Congressman Sonny Bono died exactly like Michael -- an accident on ice.
He slammed into a tree. Somehow it was a shocking event and a nearly unheard of mode of dying. Then Michael died the
same way, supposedly playing football. I've never heard anything about Michael's death that said it was anything except a freak
accident. Still, you wonder. And then, because he was a Congressman, could there have been
malfeasance in Sonny Bono's death?
Kathy
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On Elm St. it seems to me like he has turned his sight of view a slight bit somewhat to his right in the Willis photo: http://jfk.fotopic.net/p37002837.html . He is still sitting, and again it would be for others to determine whether he could be filming or not. The same applies to the Betzner photo: http://jfk.fotopic.net/p37002840.html , except for that it might seem like he is facing more forwards. As I understood it, the Betzner photo was taken slightly before the Willis photo.
The Altgens photo which John posted a crop from here, has many things to it. One of them is the absence of Dave F. Powers. At least I cannot see him, as I always thought the man visible behind SA Emory Roberts was SA George Hickey. Maybe it is I who have completely misinterpreted this. The man seems to have glasses, and I recall remarks on his famous 'grin'. If I have managed to be mistaken about this all along I would very much appreciate being corrected. If it is Hickey, where is Powers? Behind Roberts, jumped to the floor, or where?
This is tangential, but in the Willis photo I notice the motorcycle cops' cycles did not have their brake lights on. So the limo stop probably has not yet occurred.
Kathy
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? (don't quote me on this one
something dark covers part of face and casts a shadow on shoulder. I figured if it's a hand holding a mike the hand would be whiter. (gloves?) camera??I agree with you. Someone has blackened out the image of the SS's hand, probably holding some kind of phone. Who is the old guy with the grin on his face sitting behind this agent?
Kathy
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Now that I know of the left carotid artery sleeper method -- and that you have to stand in back of the victim to do it, I am more convinced than ever that Karyn Kupcinet was murdered by Intel -- CIA or the Mob. It justs hits the nail on the head. There were no marks on her except for decomp. But inside her throat, yes. Left side. And so many suspects. Her killer certainly got away with -- shall I say it? -- murder. Kupcinet adored his little girl and that was a way to get to him.
Kathy,
Why let Kup live? Can anyone predict how a man will react if his daughter is killed--surely, there would be a risk he would go public with his knowledge?
I don't know. Nobody knows. It was the method of death. Did Prine know how to kill someone in that way? Or the late David Lange? You have to stand behind the victim in order to do it. The coroner said she was killed by a very strong man, standing behind her, possibly left handed, and using only one hand.
Kathy
I feel funny using words like "Intel," etc. But it's the method of killing. In a court of law you don't have to prove motive. The Coroner described her death just like this carotid artery sleeper business. I read on another site that after Karyn's death, Irv Kupcinet no longer mentioned the Kennedy Assassination in his column, not until the film JFK came out. He raged about it. I've seen a couple of his columns about that movie. He was so mad about it, you'd think it was personal. Maybe (unconsciously?) it was.
Kathy
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[...] Isn't it strange that John Kennedy's assassination didn't put the military on alert?
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Charlie said that his base was put on alert after the assassination, though not for very long...
--Thomas
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Thomas, they were put on alert for 3 hours. Surely they had Harvey Oswald in custody by then. The "lone" assassin. Charles also said no one on the base thought the Russians or Cuba had anything to do with it.
Kathy
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What about Mama Cass a few years later in England? She gave a triumphant concert, spoke to Michele Philips over the phone about it, then was found dead the next morning. She did a lot of drugs in her day and always kept a supply handy for friends. This is how she made friends.
Kathy
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Now that I know of the left carotid artery sleeper method -- and that you have to stand in back of the victim to do it, I am more convinced than ever that Karyn Kupcinet was murdered by Intel -- CIA or the Mob. It justs hits the nail on the head. There were no marks on her except for decomp. But inside her throat, yes. Left side. And so many suspects. Her killer certainly got away with -- shall I say it? -- murder. Kupcinet adored his little girl and that was a way to get to him.
Kathy,
Why let Kup live? Can anyone predict how a man will react if his daughter is killed--surely, there would be a risk he would go public with his knowledge?
I don't know. Nobody knows. It was the method of death. Did Prine know how to kill someone in that way? Or the late David Lange? You have to stand behind the victim in order to do it. The coroner said she was killed by a very strong man, standing behind her, possibly left handed, and using only one hand.
Kathy
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Hello Evan
I will agree with you that RFK was quite ruthless.
However, I feel that it is often misunderstood, that as a result of the better use of tact, the fact that JFK was both quite ruthless and reckless
is sometimes overlooked. They both were very much the proteges of "old Joe" and that both reacted when challenged quite agressively; tho JFK had the luxury of having RFK "front" his very strong reactions for the sake of diplomacy.
Yes I was a very young and quite "innocent" military officer on 11/22/63. In those days, it was pretty much forbidden that Military Officers voiced political opinions publicly...remember MacArthur !
I was at an overseas base when this occurred and I would like to clear up a couple of misconceptions that I personally KNOW are wrong. It was never considered by any of the "Brass" that this was a Soviet involved incident on the base where I was stationed. Contrary to popular belief, that even in our strategic location, we were placed on ALERT for no longer than three hours. I spent the night at home with my wife. There was no military concern of an impending war or attack. I am able to quite specifically judge this because I had recently been thru the chaos and high military readiness which had resulted from the Cuban Missile Crisis....we then were TRULY close to conflict.
Apart from the grief that most felt, the following days were "business as usual"! We were not on any elevated alert status.
As a matter of fact, in those first few days and months, the reports of the FBI were more or less considered Gospel....few comments to the contrary!
Evan, I managed to wander a little off topic. It is my personal belief (which I cannot substantiate), that there was little thought in the mind of RFK that there was any great mystery regarding what happened to his Brother. As a matter of fact, I feel that he thought that his personal actions and recommendations to the President contributed to the Coup. I feel that the both, "then and now" position, which has been taken by the Kennedy family, would not and possbly could not, be changed regardless of whether Robert reached the White House. This decision, I personally think, had a dual purpose....one was of course protecting Kennedy interests....the other however was the more overpowering reason....It was the very valid question and the imperceivable reaction of what would befall the U.S. government, were it known that a Coup d' Etat had been conducted by the highest elements of power within the U.S. Government, in accord with those who controlled the nations industry, oil, and banking.
Despite my constant "demands for truth", my deep belief is that the U.S. could not have taken it then, nor could it now.
It would be similar to saying there is no Santa Claus, no God, no hope, .....your father is a child predator and murderer, and your mother, sisters and grandmother are all whores, and that even tho there is no God, there is certainly a Satan who does and will always prevail.
I feel that this is but a "slight" exaggeration !
I feel that "A PORTION" of this cover up was truly conducted by Patriots, attempting to save "the remnants" of our nation from caving in upon itself.
I didn't intend to "sermonize" !
Charlie Black
That was well put, Charlie. I believe that Robert Kennedy was the President's worst enemy, not meaning to be, of course. But going after the mob when they (supposedly) helped Kennedy get into the White House through the Chicago elections. He should have dropped it. It was like a pissing war, excuse the phrase, between RFK and Hoffa/Giancana, etc.
Also, the Marilyn Monroe thing. I have read so many sources that contradict one another. But that woman died at the age of 36. Who killed her? I don't know, but it seemed like the Kennedys were involved some way. Robert requested that Marilyn sing Happy Birthday to the President. When it appeared in the papers the next day, he decided to cut her off. But he was the one who invited her in the first place!
I've read some other disturbing things about Robert. I don't know what's true. One book that came out this year -- possibly Ultimate Sacrifice by Joan Mellon -- said Bobby Kennedy and several Cuban Exiles were planning to assassinate Castro without the President knowing about it.
Isn't it strange that John Kennedy's assassination didn't put the military on alert?
Kathy
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Witnesses answer the question as to whether or not Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald knew each other.
Oliver Stone had "Jack Ruby," standing on a table in the back of the press contingent as Oswald answered questions in JFK. If this scene is true and Ruby yelled out "Fair Play for Cuba," then Ruby had to have known Oswald. Also there was this smirk of recognition between Ruby and Oswald in the police station basement right before Ruby shot Oswald. It's safe to say that Oswald wasn't expecting Ruby to kill him. At least not in my opinion.
Kathy
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Choke holds can also cause death by another mechanism. In a choke hold, incapacitation is produced by lack of oxygen to the brain. This hypoxia is generalized, however, due to compression of the airway. Hypoxia sensitizes the heart to arrhythmia. The carotid sinus is a structure located in the internal carotid artery, just above the bifurcation of the common carotid artery. Stimulation of this structure by pressure to the neck can cause bradykardia and/or a fall in arterial blood pressure. Thus, we have two factors working on the heart predisposing to arrhythmias: the hypoxia from occlusion of the airway and the bradykardia from stimulation of the carotid sinus. There is, in addition, a third factor: release of catecholamines. Choke holds are used to restrain an individual who is struggling. On placement of the hold, the individual usually continues to struggle. This results in release of catecholamines, specifically, norepinephirene and epinephrine. These have an arrythmogenic action on the heart. Thus, the combined actions of hypoxia and catecholamines, which are both arrhytmogenic, plus the bradykardia produced by the carotid sinus stimulation, may result in a fatal cardiac arrhythmia.
In the carotid sleeper hold, symmetrical force is applied by the forearm and upper arm to the sides of the neck such that there is compression of only the carotid arteries and jugular veins and not the trachea. The arm is placed about the neck with the antecubital fossa or crook of the arm centered at the midline of the neck. The free hand grips the wrist of the other arm and pulls it backward, creating a pincher effect. This produces transient cerebral ischemia. The carotid sleeper hold impedes blood flow of the carotid arteries by pressure exerted on both sides of the neck by pincher effect of the arm and forearm. If properly applied, the compression of the carotid arteries will cause loss of consciousness in approximately 10-15 s. On relaxation of the hold, cerebral blood flow will be restored and consciousness will return in approximately 10-20 s, without any serious side effects. Maintenance of the pressure is essentially manual strangulation, and if continued long enough will, of course, cause death.
In theory, the carotid sleeper hold will cause rapid unconsciousness without injury to the individual. Unfortunately, in violently struggling individuals, a carotid sleeper hold can easily and unintentionally be converted into a choke hold as the individual twists and turns to break the hold.
A properly applied carotid sleeper can also cause death. One would not expect any trauma to the structures of the neck, however. The compression of the carotid arteries, with resultant decreased cerebral blood flow, can theoretically precipitate a stroke in an individual with atherosclerotic disease of the carotid and/or cerebral vasculature. The pressure may cause dislodgement of atherosclerotic material with a stroke due to an embolus. Blood flow to the brain is from both the carotid and the vertebral arteries. If the vertebral arteries have impaired blood flow due to atherosclerosis then occlusion of the carotid arteries may compromise an already compromised circulation with resultant thrombosis and/or stroke.
Compression of the neck by a carotid sleeper hold may also cause stimulation of the carotid sinus with bradycardia. Application of the hold to an individual who is agitated and struggling may increase the struggling, with increased release of catecholamines. The catecholamines working with the carotid sinus stimulation may produce a cardiac arrest. In addition, if the individual has intrinsic heart disease, he may be even more sensitive to bradycardia and the arrhythmogenic activity of the catecholamines
It also said this, John:
"Occasionally, a baton, large metal flashlight, or some other device will be used to compress the neck. The authors have seen a number of deaths with such instruments with fractures of the hyoid bone or the larynx. Since a device is used rather than the arm, they are not really deaths due to choke holds...
The forearm is placed straight across the front of the neck. The free hand grips the wrist, pulls it back, collapsing the airway. If too much force is used, there may be fracture of the larynx or hyoid bone. In the two cases reported in the literature by Reay and Eisele and in a recent case seen by the authors, there were unilateral fractures of the greater cornu of the thyroid cartilage. The authors' case also had a fracture of the hyoid bone on the same side. In the two cases reported by Reay and Eisele, both fractures are on the left side of the neck. These were produced using the right forearm across the neck and the left hand to pull it backward. Thus, pressure was eccentrically transferred to the neck, predominantly to the left side."
This might be how Karyn Kupcinet met her death.
Kathy
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Don't trust Obama, Dawn. The last thing I'd want for a President is a religious fanatic. Muslims' God believes in violence, murder and retribution.
George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html
Bush says God chose him to lead his nation
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/internation...1075950,00.html
I agree with you. Though the Muslims are sincere in their beliefs. Bush's piety is fake and manipulative.
Kathy
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Several key figures with important information on the JFK assassination have died from heart attacks. I believe that many of these, including David Morales, were murdered.
I suspect Morales and others were killed by the “carotid sleeper’ method. The murderer stands behind the victim and closes off the carotid artery and therefore starves the brain of oxygen. If the victim is not in good physical condition, they will die of a heart attack within a few seconds. This method leaves little physical evidence that the person has been murdered.
However, sometimes, the person will be able to struggle for around 20 seconds before they die. If the police suspect that the victim had enemies they might organize a detailed autopsy. In that case, the police will discover the victim has died of strangulation rather than of a heart attack. This is what happened in the Bob Woolmer case.
Now that I know of the left carotid artery sleeper method -- and that you have to stand in back of the victim to do it, I am more convinced than ever that Karyn Kupcinet was murdered by Intel -- CIA or the Mob. It justs hits the nail on the head. There were no marks on her except for decomp. But inside her throat, yes. Left side. And so many suspects. Her killer certainly got away with -- shall I say it? -- murder. Kupcinet adored his little girl and that was a way to get to him. There definitely was a Chicago angle to the Assassination.
Kathy
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Several key figures with important information on the JFK assassination have died from heart attacks. I believe that many of these, including David Morales, were murdered.
I suspect Morales and others were killed by the “carotid sleeper’ method. The murderer stands behind the victim and closes off the carotid artery and therefore starves the brain of oxygen. If the victim is not in good physical condition, they will die of a heart attack within a few seconds. This method leaves little physical evidence that the person has been murdered.
However, sometimes, the person will be able to struggle for around 20 seconds before they die. If the police suspect that the victim had enemies they might organize a detailed autopsy. In that case, the police will discover the victim has died of strangulation rather than of a heart attack. This is what happened in the Bob Woolmer case.
John, you sent chills down my side. In my opinion, this was the way Karyn Kupcinet was murdered. The coroner said she was strangled on the left side of the neck by a very powerful man who only used his left hand from behind. According to Wikipedia.org. Only the left common carotid artery has a substantial presence in the thoracic region.
Karyn Kupcinet was an actress killed in her West Hollywood apartment at the age of 22. There are numerous suspects, plus her death was linked to the Kennedy Assassination by researcher and journalist Penn Jones, Jr in Forgive My Grief, Book 2.
Writer and Professor Paul Fecteau is writing a book about Karyn. She was the daughter of Irv Kupcinet of Kup's Show fame and columnist with the Chicago Sun-Times. She was killed on Thanksgiving 1963. Ironically, her parents gave dinner to out-of-town actors from the Chicago theaters every Thanksgiving. Karyn was always there. This year, she stayed in LA alone.
Kathy
I have written about the death of Karyn Kupcinet here:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm
Her father, Irving Kupcinet, knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones Irv kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."
Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.
Some researchers claimed that there was a link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten off Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."
OK. There are a few misconceptions. The Oxnard Call came in 20 minutes before President Kennedy was shot. Karyn was in West Hollywood. Prine had spoken to her. So that must have been another unfortunate woman. But it's a true story. The article appeared the next day in many papers.
Irv did not know Ruby well. He knew him in the late '40's. Both men were the same age and as kids, went out everyday fighting in the Chicago streets. Irv was smart and though bad tempered, he was more genteel. Ruby's nickname was Sparky because he got mad easily. If they knew one another as kids, I don't know. Irv immediately called a Mr. Dorfman, a mobster after Ruby killed Oswald. Dorfman didn't even know Oswald had been shot. That was Nov. 24, 1963. Karyn was murdered 4 days later.
Kathy
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Several key figures with important information on the JFK assassination have died from heart attacks. I believe that many of these, including David Morales, were murdered.
I suspect Morales and others were killed by the “carotid sleeper’ method. The murderer stands behind the victim and closes off the carotid artery and therefore starves the brain of oxygen. If the victim is not in good physical condition, they will die of a heart attack within a few seconds. This method leaves little physical evidence that the person has been murdered.
However, sometimes, the person will be able to struggle for around 20 seconds before they die. If the police suspect that the victim had enemies they might organize a detailed autopsy. In that case, the police will discover the victim has died of strangulation rather than of a heart attack. This is what happened in the Bob Woolmer case.
John, you sent chills down my side. In my opinion, this was the way Karyn Kupcinet was murdered. The coroner said she was strangled on the left side of the neck by a very powerful man who only used his left hand from behind. According to Wikipedia.org. Only the left common carotid artery has a substantial presence in the thoracic region.
Karyn Kupcinet was an actress killed in her West Hollywood apartment at the age of 22. There are numerous suspects, plus her death was linked to the Kennedy Assassination by researcher and journalist Penn Jones, Jr in Forgive My Grief, Book 2.
Writer and Professor Paul Fecteau is writing a book about Karyn. She was the daughter of Irv Kupcinet of Kup's Show fame and columnist with the Chicago Sun-Times. She was killed on Thanksgiving 1963. Ironically, her parents gave dinner to out-of-town actors from the Chicago theaters every Thanksgiving. Karyn was always there. This year, she stayed in LA alone.
Kathy
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[Obama is not a "Black Muslim".
Dawn
Don't trust Obama, Dawn. The last thing I'd want for a President is a religious fanatic. Muslims' God believes in violence, murder and retribution.
Kathy
something dark covers part of face and casts a shadow on shoulder. I figured if it's a hand holding a mike the hand would be whiter. (gloves?) camera??
The Kennedys and the Cover Up
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Chroetsjov = Kruschev?
I take offense at your opinion that the Kennedys had Marilyn Monroe killed. What would be the reason? She was going to hold a press conference and talk about her life with the Kennedy brothers? I'm sure Pat Newcomb, her press agent and friend to the Kennedys, would not allow it. She would come off like a crazy woman with no morals. That press conference would totally destroy her. If she was going to pick one journalist, her friend, James Bacon, he would never publish her remarks or talk about them, not even after the trio was gone. He said the Kennedys had nothing to do with her death. Bacon said he told the cops he was with the coroner, got into the house and into the bedroom and saw Monroe dead. He also said there was an empty bottle of champaigne -- this was not in her published autopsy. No ethanol.
Jerry Lewis also said that the Kennedys were not involved with Marilyn Monroe because he was the one with her and he knows what happened -- apparently accidental suicide. I don't think Jerry Lewis would shield murderers. Not the Jerry I know. And he was good friends with the President. However I do believe that she was murdered. I believe Bobby was at her house that day (according to Eunice Murray) and when he left, the CIA moved in and killed her, hoping Bobby would be held responsible for her death. This was one way to hurt Bobby. Another way was to kill his brother. Bobby was merciless with the mob and did stupid things propelled by testosterone.
Kathy