Chris Newton

The card that he "officially" got at separation (ETS) is listed on his DD 214. He received DD-217-MC. Which was also later found later and photographed.

Hi Anna, It's just the quality of the two images that makes it look like he's wearing a shirt with no collar in the black and white image you linked. I entirely agree that he never should have had this card. Inactive reservists and/or their dependents don't get this card either. This image is a better copy of the undamaged DD 1173 and if you zoom in you can faintly see the collar:

Actually I learned something interesting from that image. If you look at the box directly under the "AF" or the "N" you will see they are different on each card. Oswald's had a "full" box and Nagell's has two boxes. The cards are from two different "series" and versions. Oswald's is the version PRE 1961 and Nagell's is the version POST 1961.

Relax. I'm not trying to start a fight. Maybe just a tiny chip. I'm just maybe a little defensive because every thread I've seen on the subject of an assassin impersonating Oswald and coming out of Russia devolves into a Harvey and Lee thread. Despite the fact that that scenario could occur independent of H&L theory.

Question. How is Oswald's 1173 related to Operation Big Lift? https://catalog.archives.gov/id/820932

Top one is Richard C.Nagell's -sorry for the size of the image... it's all I have atm.

There you go making wild assumptions again about non kool aid drinkers. So you H&L guys have a "lock" on every impersonation theory? Good luck with that. I can think of only one reason to put a "new" photo on the ID and that's to make it look more like the current bearer of the card. The only logical reason for defacing the card with the fake "postage stamps" is to mask and obfuscate another stamp (maybe an official stamp) that is already on the card itself that the bearer doesn't want us to notice.

This gets to the point I'm trying to make. If the card is "good" why add the the stamps? Why switch photos?

Yes, I'm sorry you feel that way but what I'm saying isn't exactly the same. I've been considering the value of creating all these stamps to obfuscate the corner of the photo. If the card was semi-pristine wouldn't using the same photo without markings (a clean photo) have been more simple? If on the other hand, if there was a stamp or stamps that were already present on the card stock (and maybe the photo?) then maybe I'd have a motivation to "muck up" the ID with the fake "postage stamps". Yes. I believe David Josephs has an image of both Nagell's and Oswald's DD 1173's that were allegedly found on Nagell in his photobucket but since that service changed the link isn't active. I'll try and hunt it down for you but the quality is similar to the Nagell copy of Oswalds'. I was just asking about the signatures. The Ayers on the DD 214 is not the same as the Ayers on the DD 1173.

Just thinking aloud, random thoughts... Could the "postage stamps" on the extant Oswald DD 1173 been put there to obfuscate or hide a real stamp that wasn't a "postage stamp"? How does Nagell, the decorated Army Capt., get an Air Force DD 1173? In my own experience the most important document a soldier receives when they ETS from the service is the DD 214. So 2 questions, where was the Oswald copy of his DD 214 when he was in the USSR and are the signatures on that document, (the DD 214), of Lt. Ayers and Oswald real, or do you think they are forgeries as well?

Sandy, If you look at the "Minsk" photo (CE 2892) You can observe a black dot on Oswalds' neck, it seems to be covered on the Nagell "copy" by a slash mark but.... If you look at the Oswald DD 1173 photo you can easily see the same black dot. So, I think that CE 2892 is a copy of the same photo used on the Oswald DD1173 (less the stamp marks). https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0191b.htm What say you?

I'm not convinced about the photo yet... I can wiggle the layer to match up the facial features and left ear pretty good with the extant photo but I'll lose a tiny bit of alignment on the numbers at the top. I think this can be attributed to the really, really, really poor condition of the copy. My theory about this copy is that it came, originally, from a 1963 style facsimile machine and it was stretched a little. We remember those things right?. It also appears, to me, that the necktie and the suit area were actually drawn in by hand. When I line up the facial features the shoulders also line up and the photo border looks great but then Oswald appears to have no neck at all. I'll post an adjusted montage with the face aligned soon.

You were quoting Jim and I was reading your hypothesis so things got jumbled. Secondary source issues Good start with the hypothesis, by the way. I'm with you on about 95% of it, so far.

I'm no photo-editing guru but I know how to do some basic stuff with layers. So, I used the version of Oswald's ID in which I highlighted the circles and then lay the Nagell version on top while trying to line them up. I fiddled with the Nagell copy opacity and concentrated on the numbers at the top, the box they are contained in and the capital "N". Some unexpected things happen in regards to the photo. I was really surprised that the extant photo edge seems to line up so well. I might have to rethink the Nagell copy photo. Also check out the obvious signature issue. Was some "artwork" introduced to a really poor photocopy of the extant ID? What do you think?

Hey, If you can prove that an Oswald imposter had the DD 1173, then go for it. And after providing some reasonable explanation, you feel the desire to call the imposter Harvey or lee or whatever, I'm cool with that. On the other hand, if your H&L scenario is not valid, the questions surrounding this evidence still remain ...so I'm not in favor of you guys using the H&L scenario as a shoe-horn to make things fit which are otherwise unexplained. Does that make my position clear?

I think that the "main stream" media's failure to address the real likelihood of a conspiracy surrounding the assassinations of JFK, MLK and RFK has given the conspiracy "nut jobs" like Alex Jones an opening. They are filling a void. I'm really saddened when I hear other voices in todays "resistance" tout "collusion", i.e. conspiracy, when it comes to Trump and the Russians from one side of their mouths but continue to deride and insult anyone that advocates for justice in these other assassinations out the other side of their mouths.

...like these, maybe?

Oswald supposedly had these mad photography skills that he acquired at Jaggers-Childs-Stovall so why didn't he create a "US style visa" photo for his DD Form 1173 ID? Even a little "white out" (like it looks the WC used on the corner of the Minsk photo) would be faster and more professional looking than the fake postage stamps. Why make this ID look so "amateurish" when he allegedly did such a great job creating the other "fake" ID's? Do we agree that the ID probably had one configuration in September 1959 and another configuration in November 1963? If Oswald took his DD Form 1173 with him to the USSR then the KGB must have had it right? They had opportunities to inventory all his belongings when he was taken to the hospital. Do we think he could have concealed the ID from the KGB? The KGB considered Powers' DD form 1173 as proof Powers was CIA, would they have gone back and reconsidered the Oswald DD Form 1173 (if he had it on him)? Alternatively, If Oswald didn't take it with him where was it when he was in the USSR? Did store he stuff at his Mom's? When did Nagell get his copy of the ID? Nagell's copy must have had one of three sources, Russian Intelligence, US Intelligence or Oswald himself correct? Which is more likely? BTW, Was Nagell's version laminated? Where is Nagell's version now?

I was rechecking some of our sources and I noted that the ARRB mentions the ID in one paragraph in their Final Report. It also seems they "trolled" us big time because I can find no conclusions or explanations of what they found. Well done ARRB, well done. (see bottom right corner and next page): https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3611&search=1173#relPageId=107&tab=page

I don't know if it is a B or an R or a P. We are speculating about the signature on the "passport" affidavit for 1st Sgt. Stout. The link to Armstrong's folder on Zack Stout, that David Joseph posted, provides an example of Zack's signature. It isn't even close to the signature on the affidavit. The time and distance concerning Oswald's association with Zack Stout and the Stout signature on the affidavit make me believe this is a coincidental relationship. I did find a birth announcement in the Tustin Daily News for 1960 for a "William B. Stout" who lives with his wife in a nearby apartment complex. I don't believe this is early aircraft engineering icon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bushnell_Stout still searching...

It's one of the reasons that I don't believe it was issued by Ayer's crew at H&HS, MCAS, El Toro. They had a lamination machine. There may have been no time for the persons who supplied Oswald with the card to get the lamination done on September 4th. He was physically moving from one base to another (Tustin to El Toro), I'm assuming in the morning. He has to report in to his new unit with his orders, meet his new chain of command, see the supply Sgt., etc. Then in the afternoon he has to acquire the DD 1173 and go downtown to the County Clerk (45 min walk from El Toro) and presumably wait in line. There is a lead about who these people might be. When the HSCA allowed the public to come forward and present evidence Hal Verb stepped up and related a story about a phone conversation he overheard. If the caller is on the level then it's Marine Corp CID at Tustin that might be helping Oswald. That's a separate "animal" from ONI they are not exactly the same thing. I haven't started exploring it but I think it deserves a "look": https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145536#relPageId=64&tab=page

Larry - was that one of the small square black and white photos with the white border around them found in Oswald's belongings? I think I had a bunch of those on my drive. The late great Tommy Graves (just kidding he's still kicking - he's just dead to this forum atm) and I were attempting to locate the locations using google earth. When I get a chance I'll go back and review what we had done and if I can add to it. I just can't start anything "new" until I finish a story I'm writing on RP. I'm not entirely sure about dates of "the gap" in service for Oswald. I'm pretty sure it's been addressed before though. Sometime before his 30 days leave I think. I'll re-review that too at a later date.

I agree and concur with 95% of your hypothesis with minor quibbles. I think we've established that there were very tight security procedures surrounding these cards. I believe that DoD knows / knew from whence this card originated and they have covered up that source. I also don't think the Oswald DD 1173 was from a batch available to H&HS, MCAS El Toro at the time it was prepared for Oswald. I've yet to track down "P Stout" or "B Stout" or "R Stout" that would have served at H&HS MCAS, El Toro in 1959. It seems I've looked for him a hundred different ways. I have found an obituary for a "Robert Stout" that served in Korea in the Marines and was promoted to SSG (E-6) there before returning to the States. He served 7 years total (no idea what his final grade was) before attending San Jose State and Santa Clara U. the laminated card <sigh>... I think I must be imagining the bill underneath the top left corner of the lamination in this Soviet hand-out photo:

David, The wording is probably important, "...discharged from the Marine Base in March, 1959..." is not the same as discharged from the Marine Corps. There is a gap of about 6 months in Anne Egerter's CIA bio of Oswald between the time that he left Japan and the Philippines and when he was assigned to MCAS-9. It would have made sense that he returned to some base in the US such as El Toro before his next duty station. When he was "discharged from the Marine Base (EL Toro) in March, 1959", where was he next assigned? The obvious discharge date conflict that I see is Egerter's "03SEP59" date, that seems to originate from the Fain Report (and M. Oswald's alleged statements) whereas the "official" date in the extant H&HS MCAS, paperwork is 11SEP59. The card can be issued for any time period but not less than 30 days or greater than 6 years, per the reg.s circa 1959.

I think the ID is real and that it was fraudulently prepared for Oswald by a third party on 9/3 or 9/4, 1959. On 03SEP59 Oswald was assigned to H&HS, MCAS, El Toro. He had been stationed at MCAS-9, Tustin, Ca., the nearby Airship base that had been converted to the Marine's largest Helicopter base in California. This re-assignment meant that Oswald left his barracks (at Tustin) and moved into new (to him) barracks on El Toro. Low ranking enlisted persons assigned to a separation company for out processing usually spend their days picking up cigarette butts and painting curbs, in between trips to the PX and the theater and total boredom. Outside of the security issues surrounding that type of ID, I can't imagine how Oswald would be able to access a typewriter and the privacy necessary to be able to create the fraudulent DD Form 1173. It's possible that the ID card was prepared for Oswald for a purpose entirely different from the one, (and only - that we know of), purpose he used it for: applying for his passport on 9/4/59. Was Oswald "going rogue" when he did this? If so, how did he "know" not to use his current active duty ID, (DD Form 2 (green)) when applying for the passport? And how can we explain the affidavit in any other context? Did Oswald have a laminated version of this card when he presented it to the Santa Clara County Clerk, and was the un-laminated version kept in his ONI 201 with a completed DD Form 1172? I disagree with Horne that Zack Stout is "1st Sgt. B Stout" who signed the affidavit dated 04SEP59. FWIW