Chris Newton

So on the off chance this was a bunch of horse do-do, I did what I could to research the security procedures and found a copy of the Marine Corps Personnel Manual, MARCORPERSMAN 11-14, dated 1967. It turns out the statement above is pretty damn accurate, if not extreme enough. See below Section 9, Security and Accountability of DD forms 1173:

Just to add something that might be a curious "connection": excerpt from interview with Gen. Lemay's daughter: WS: Your father had a lot of people around him at SAC that were hand-picked. Good people. Do you remember some of the key people? JLL: General [Thomas] Power. General [Francis] Griswold. You know, sometime, it might be...General Griswold, they were stationed together right after they were first married. "Grizzy" and Jeff had been married a couple of years and had a baby - their first daughter - when they were all stationed. They were very close friends until the Griswolds died. And their second daughter is married to Sidney Pollack, the movie director. Very nice people. Really nice people. Mother and Jeff were very close. Very close friends. They ended up...they lived in Omaha. General Griswold ran General Pontiac over in Council Bluffs, which was really...who owned the Cadillac agency. It was all their money. BWS: Edmondson? Briggs? Rosie O'Donnell? JLL: Rosie O'Donnell. In fact, we would visit them in Colorado. I think he was in Colorado. I remember all those names. BWS: Hoyt Vandenberg, the Chief of Staff? JLL: No, I don't remember him. He died young, too, didn't he? Of course, there was [Carl] Spaatz and Ira Acre, which was earlier on. I wouldn't have know them. BWS: They were important to your father. JLL: Yes, it was a nucleus of outstanding people. But I remember the names. We all lived...General [John] Ryan was there; Mike Ryan's father was there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dale_Ryan In August 1963, General Ryan was assigned to the Pentagon as inspector general for the U.S. Air Force. One year later he was named vice commander in chief of Strategic Air Command and in December 1964, became commander in chief. JEH Appt. book 14 NOV 63:

Yes. I have way to many things on "my plate". I saw that address but thought you might have found something I didn't. I was perusing Dr. John Newman's site and documents and I found an interesting item. Apparently CIA Officer Anne Egerter created a "false" biography for Oswald... https://jfkjmn.com/new-page-79 ...one item, aside from the things that Dr. Newman pointed out in the paragraph below this document, that jumped out at me, was the purported date of 03 SEP 59 for Oswald's discharge. This is the day before he applied for the passport and a day before the "false DD 1173" was dated. Where did she get that date from? If I could speculate: Oswald is secretly discharged on 03 SEP 59 and becomes part of some ONI/CIA related intelligence effort/operation. During his remaining days at El Toro he gives the illusion of a Marine waiting his discharge while assigned to HS & H, MCAS but in reality is working and getting instructions with a "handler" (1st Sgt. B. Stout?) to prepare for his trip to Europe.

...keeping in mind the primary purpose of the card which is to allow dependents of Active Duty Military to gain access to a military facility so that they can shop at the PX and access military health facilities, there are some exceptions which are listed. None of those exceptions are known to apply to Oswald. The sponsor of the person holding the card is the Active Duty, Deceased or Retired person that is/was the Servicemember. The dependents of inactive and reserve servicemembers are not eligible for the privileges awarded by this card so there is no "inactive" or "reserve" sponsor status. By definition a reserve or inactive Servicemember who is recalled for active duty, is then in "Active Duty" status and would be re-issued a green DD form 2. The card I posted earlier was an Active National Guard ID yet it was still "red", the National Guard is in essence a state militia until federalized for whatever time is necessary to complete a needed mission. When I was in Germany, Civilian contractors would be issued these cards (DD 1173) so that they could gain access to my Kasserne while they were performing whatever job/task the Army had awarded to them. If those Civilian contractors were to go on vacation or had a work stoppage of some sort, the ID's would be collected from them until they returned to finish their contract. The reason was to prevent them from accessing and enjoying the benefits of any other facilities while on "holiday". Also keep in mind that there were usually huge benefits to shopping at an American PX - cheap American cigarettes, cheaper alcohol and gasoline, foods that were frequently unavailable or in short supply in the host country. So cheap that in Germany we had a ration card with a monthly allotment for specific items that were frequent targets of the local black market. (Cigs, Coffee, fuel, & alcohol) Note the sponsor on the REYES card "USA AD"... United States Army Active Duty

Hey Sandy, We know the passport was "issued" to Oswald "routinely" by the passport Agency on Sept. 10. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=passport_and+santa#relPageId=272&tab=page I cannot find any instructions that would return this newly issued passport to the County Clerk's Office, in fact, I can find no account of how Oswald actually obtained the new passport. Did he pick it up, in person before he left for Texas and New Orleans? If so, where? Was it sent to his Mother's address? It probably could not have been sent to MCAS, El Toro since it was illegal for an Active Duty Servicemember to apply for a US passport.

Precisely.... because someone on Inactive Status has NO privileges and would not get this card. It's not an "accidental" omission. note: 68.2 (e) last sentence actually directs you to the correct ID for both RESERVE and INACTIVE Servicemembers (it's DD form 2 described in section 67 which is viewable, in part, on the first page I posted).

I've been looking for that but haven't found it. It's one of the last things he would have surrendered and having done so, his separation orders would have been substituted as temporary authorization to even be on the EL Toro Facility. I was trying to make the point earlier that his standard green ID would have been in his wallet while he was submitting the fake DD Form 1173 as an ID on his passport application. Without the Active Duty ID (DD Form 2 (green)) he would not have been permitted re-entry to El Toro (or it would have at least been a major hassle).

Actually I might have been wrong about this. Somewhere I saw the "LT. JG." and that stuck with me, but "1st Lt." could be correct. There are some subtle differences between the Army, Navy and Marines "rank" names. An example is that Oswald was discharged as a PFC (E-2). In the Army, an E-2 is a Private and a PFC is an E-3.

Something to chew on. I suggest comparing this card: To the actual 1173 regs.: next page: next page: The "REYES" ID above is actually filled out entirely correct. (and yes, it is laminated). This card Expired in Aug. 59. Note section 68.5 Where is Oswalds DD Form 1172?

Hey Tom, Thanks for the encouragement and jumping in with a theory. I'm not trying to speak for everyone participating but I think Sandy and I are leaning toward an intelligence "connection" here between Oswald and whomever is facilitating his attempts to get a passport. I don't know yet about a "team" but at least one person with access to these restricted ID's and a means to "mock" up a forgery. As far as the timing goes, this early "operation" probably is not part of an assassination attempt. JFK was merely a candidate for the election and just started debating Nixon in September 1959. I don't even think he was polling ahead at this time. We haven't yet fully explored how this ID re-appeared later in his "Tippet" wallet. We're trying to figure out how it came "to be" on 04 SEP 59.

Jim, I think Sandy and I, Mary La Fontaine, Jack White, Harold Weisberg, Sue McDonough of the National Archives and Dept of Defense Historian Daniel Vetock all agree that Oswald was never issued that card by the Marine Corps. That the FBI essentially withheld it's existence from the WC and didn't produce the card for the Nat. Archives until 1966, ( in the damaged format we see today), is probably an indication that they didn't know where it came from. If the FBI did have a "clue" they weren't going to go down that road either. I think an unknown third party supplied the card to Oswald. In it's "original" format it probably had a different photo of Oswald and probably did not have the fake postage stamps. I think the card and affidavit sole purpose was to provide identification for the passport application that Oswald made on Friday, Sep 4, 1959. The card and affidavit only needed to be "good enough" to fool the County Clerk, and that tasks seems to have been successful. In its un-laminated form it would never have been regarded as "valid" by Military Authorities.

I have been researching DOD Form 1173 and its application form 1172 today. I may have some charts and instructions to post later that will severely cast doubt on the Oswald 1173 as far as how it's filled out. In the meantime, a former servicemember posted this years ago in another forum and it confirms my feelings about a restricted & numbered ID card:

I think so. I don't think the US Passport Application gets returned from LA to the County Clerk. So the ID card must have been presented on the 4th and maybe the affidavit is proffered as an explanation of why the ID is postdated? Oswald still has his Regular Marine Active Duty ID in his wallet, he could not return to base without it. How did he know that he could not get a passport showing that legitimate ID?

Does this report indicate that Lt. Ayers first day of commanding H&HS, MCAS was 9/11/59? It seems like it's saying he may have gotten his commission on 9/11/59 and that doesn't sound right. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=58964#relPageId=12&tab=page LT Ayers statement to FBI: "I know nuthink" https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=58977#relPageId=105&tab=page

Active Duty soldiers of my era didn't need passports. We had orders, an official document that directed a serviceman/woman to a certain location/unit by a certain date and we had our active duty ID card. An example: In 1983, I flew from Philadelphia, PA. to Frankfurt, Germany on a commercial flight, in uniform and when I arrived in Germany I was escorted straight to my transportation, I never went through customs and had no passport and needed no Visa. speculation: I believe that active duty Servicemembers cannot apply for a US passport until after discharge. The rules may be different now but I think that's what they were then. speculation: I think that the DoD ID and the affidavit were created at the same time so that Oswald could apply for the passport early enough to get it back in time for his trip. Other things wrong, in my opinion, with the affidavit: the date format in the upper right is completely wrong for a military document but the order is correct. It should look like a close variation of: 04 SEP 59 "MCAS" (and maybe one for Ayers, himself) stamps are used pretty liberally on the other ID cards issued but none were used on this document, but they were made in the same office? nitpicky: I'm pretty sure that the unit designations, "H&HS" and "MCAS", indicated as the issuing authority do not get a period ".". I've only seen a period in a unit designation when something is actually getting abbreviated like in "Co." for Company. Another words I might call "DELTA COMPANY 3/64 ARMOR", "D Co. 3/64 AR". "MCAS." seems very wrong to me. Go find someone somewhere else on the internet that types "MCAS." where MCAS doesn't end a sentence.

This case, on a whole, would be a lot easier if we could invent documents that we have no evidence ever existed. Lets try to stick with the actual evidence we have. I have grave doubts about that "1st Sgt Stout" was part of Lt. Ayers unit. In George Evica's book, "A certain Arrogance" he mentions that Lt. Ayers command was 10 men. A 1st Lt. commanding a unit of 10 Marines sounds, to my ear, a normal thing. This is the equivalent of an Army Platoon commanded by an Army Lt., not a Company size element which is normally commanded by a Captain. Does a Marine unit of ten soldiers normally have a Marine 1st Sgt. (E-8)? I think it does not. I would expect an E-6 or E7 to sign for Ayers not an E-8. I have been trying to find this 1st Sgt. Stout without any luck. I did find Sgt Maj. James G. Law who was the SGt. Maj. of MCAS, El Toro from 1959-1961 and all the 1st Sgt.s in MCAS would have reported to him on a frequent basis and so, he would have been familiar with "1st Sgt. Stout". He retired from the Marine Corps after 30 years service in 1967 (went on to work for North American/Rockwell in the Apollo programs) but unfortunately he is now deceased. still looking...

You have to add the phone call to the FBI post-assassination from "George Bush of the CIA" detailing exactly where he's been, what his plans are and that he heard a young man disparaging JFK. So rather than admit that this CYA call was from the real "George Bush of the CIA", the CIA responded that it might have been the guy in accounting named "George Bush". Problem with that was that the accounting guy said "not me" rather adamantly.

Hey Sandy, I don't know why it says that either. Do you think the County clerk meant that's what Oswald 'submitted" or that the word "SUBMITTED" in caps like that had something to do with the status of the ID card? When do we think Oswald got the ID? I think we agree that Oswald showed an ID with that number to the County Clerk on the 4th, no? The affidavit written by "1st Sgt. Stout" is dated Sept. 4th, as well. Did Sgt. Stout give him the ID?

I think it's an "artifact" of the poor digital copy. You can "zoom" on the document here and you will see the same "4" in both instances. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=98552#relPageId=6&tab=page

I think there is evidence that the "affidavit" that Oswald presented to the passport agency is a forgery. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=98552#relPageId=4&tab=page It's noted that other researchers have investigated this and pointed out no one has been able to identify "1st Sgt. Stout" who signed for Lt. JG. Ayers, including Ayers himself who should have remembered who the senior NCO (the 1st Sgt. i.e. "Top") in his own company at the time. Additionally, I question why the affidavit is not on official letterhead, why whomever typed it would call their own unit "MCAS" instead of the correct "MACS" and why LT. JG. Ayers was identified as a "1st Lt." when he was in reality a Lt. "J.G." ie "junior grade". Note: I have since found MACS shown as MCAS they seem interchangeable

I could not find the '50-'60's manual but I believe this is a similar unit. You will find that there is a press involved that is part of the process called a (I kid you not) "Corner Rounder". https://archive.org/details/TM11-2369 this is the spec from the same era: http://www.easy39th.com/files/Pam_20-9_Preparation_of_Identification_Cards_1944.pdf

Yes and so do the lamination machines. I don't know how many different ways I can tell you that you are wrong. <image removed by CN>

Sandy, One of the constants with Military ID's, in my own personal experience, was that they were "always" falling apart and coming apart at the seam of the two pieces of plastic. As a junior NCO it was often my mission to see that my soldiers got new "serviceable" ID cards. Note: "new" above might mean just taking it over to HQ Company for re-lamination or actually getting a new card (if it was liquid (i.e. beer) damaged).

This is an assumption on your part and you have no evidence. On the other hand, I have my grandfather's OWI Military style ID issued in 1943 and the lamination actual appears thicker and less flexible to me. You can google "Military ID" and see plenty of examples.

You're wrong. The Powers ID has a pattern in the background. Look at the bottom left corner. FYI: the standard machine that the military uses to laminate IDs produces a curved laminated corner. I have three actual expired military ID that are laminated, all have rounded corners. Take a close look, Powers Card is both laminated and damaged.