Dean Hagerman

If everybody was so absolutely blackmailable - then why were bullets ultimately necessarily?

Why?

Why?

WHY?

Bingo!

Bingo is right

Cant wait to watch Robert fumble around with this one

This was not a self contained HL Hunt operation

I do not think that it was at all

Like I said I think HL Hunt provided the money for the guns, shooters, transport, everything that needed to be paid for.

I also believe that on the night of Nov 22nd Hunt bought/recieved a copy of the Zapruder film, I tend to think it was an un-altered version that included the limo turn and the limo stop

HL Hunt was involved and wanted JFK dead

and very likely members of JFK's own cabinet were involved (think McGeorge Bundy)

Give me a break Robert!

You dont really think that do you?

And please answer my question, do you like JFK? Yes or No?

Yes, Dean, I do think that. It was a COUP D'ETAT ... not a "HL Hunt" d'Etat ... although I am sure HL Hunt had a big role in it, along with Clint Murchison, Sr. and the CIA.

McGeorge Bundy was a CFR Rockefeller man and the key inside players of the CFR (Dulles, Rockefeller, GHW Bush) were behind the JFK assassination and cover up.

McGeorge Bundy was making Vietnam policy changes NSC 273 draft on 11/21/63 - changes that JFK would NOT have approved. Bundy was also at NSC White House HQ in the post JFK assassination after hours at a time the WHITE HOUSE was telling JFK's cabinet that it was just a "lone nutter" and also Air Force One that it was just a "lone nutter."

Meaning: Bundy and the WHITE HOUSE HQ hopped on the lone nutter bandwagon very, very soon and at time when it was very possible a conspiracy was involved.

Yes, I think it is highly likely that McGeorge Bundy was a facilitator or knew about the JFK assassination in advance. Very possibly Henry Cabot Lodge and Dean Rusk, too.

All these guys were war hawks on Vietnam.

NSAM 263 - Get out of Vietnam … NSAM 273 - Full Commitment to Vietnam

Greg Burnham presentation at COPA on NSC 263/273:

Part One:

Part Two:

This is an extremely important presentation and it shows how JFK's Vietnam policy was changed IMMEDIATELY upon JFK's death. Greg Burnham says he thinks McGeorge Bundy had FOREKNOWLEDGE of the JFK Assassination.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2010/11/moynihan-letters-201011

Diary of Daniel Patrick Moynihan about 11/22/63:

"We went directly to the President's office which was torn apart with new carpets being put down in his office and the cabinet room. As if a new President were to take office. No one about save Chuck Daly. McGeorge Bundy appeared. Icy. Ralph Dungan came in smoking a pipe, quizzical, as if unconcerned. Then Sorensen. The three together in the door of the hallway that leads to the Cabinet room area. Dead silent. Someone said "It's over."

[Vanity Fair, An American Original, 10/6/10]

Well Robert you know what I think about HL Hunt, at least we both agree that he was involved, my thoughts are that HL Hunt bankrolled the assassination

I will be honest I never really looked into Bundy and Lodge so I dont have an opinion, but I never felt a need to look at Bundy or Lodge in a sinister light

Im gonna look into that

and very likely members of JFK's own cabinet were involved (think McGeorge Bundy)

Give me a break Robert!

You dont really think that do you?

And please answer my question, do you like JFK? Yes or No?

~sigh~

I dont agree with DVP on 99% of the assassination

But I agree with him 100% on this

Robert why do you insist on calling the JFK Assassination the 1963 Coup d'Etat?

You even said "1963 Coup d'Etat AKA The JFK Assassination" why waste the time of calling it The 1963 Coup d'Etat AKA The JFK Assassination when you can call it what everybody LNers and CTers alike have called it since day one?

The JFK Assassination

Stop calling it 1963 Coup d'Etat, its so lame Robert, give it up, you make all the CTs look bad

Robert

One more time, Do you like JFK?

Yes or No

Robert

Do you like JFK?

Just answer Yes or No first before you go off to me about how JFK was a "Sex Freak"

Guess what Robert?

Im sure JFK cheated on Jackie many times

Im sure JFK had many woman through out his life

Im sure that JFK ventured outside of what you consider "normal" sex

After knowing all thse things I still like and greatly admire JFK

Dean, how do you think this happened to John Kennedy? Meaning: how Lyndon Johnson was able to BULLY his way onto the 1960 Democratic ticket.

And another thing happened, too. The offices of of John Kennedy's doctor were burgarized a few scant weeks before the July Democratic convention and JFK's medical files were stolen. Then on the first day of the convention Lyndon Johnson's campaign manager John Connally is saying that Kennedy had Addison's disease. That break-in could very well have been a typical "black bag" operation by J. Edgar Hoover's men. Former FBI agent Wesley Swearingen participated in many of these illegal break-in operations:

http://www.amazon.com/Kill-President-Finally-Ex-FBI-secrecy/dp/1419693824/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295411293&sr=1-2

John Kennedy to Clark Clifford in the morning of July 14, 1960: “I must do something that I have never done before. I made a serious deal and now I have to go back on it. I have no alternative.” Symington was out and Johnson was in. Clifford recalled observing that Kennedy looked as if he’d been up all night.” [Hersh, p. 126]

John Kennedy to Hy Raskin: “You know we had never considered Lyndon, but I was left with no choice. He and Sam Rayburn made it damn clear to me that Lyndon had to be the candidate. Those bastards were trying to frame me. They threatened me with problems and I don’t need more problems. I’m going to have enough problems with Nixon.” [Hersh, p. 126]

Raskin “The substance of this revelation was so astonishing that if it had been revealed to me by another other than Jack or Bob, I would have had trouble accepting it. Why he decided to tell me was still very mysterious, but flattering nonetheless.” [Hersh, p. 126]

Robert I knew that you would not answer my question

How does that post answer my very easy question to you in any way?

One more time just reply with a Yes or No

Thats it, no explanation, no page long reply about LBJ and the 1960 Democratic Ticket

Do you like JFK Yes or No?

Please give me a reply, I have read all of your posts Robert, give me the respect of a simple answer Robert

Yes or No

Robert

Do you like JFK?

Just answer Yes or No first before you go off to me about how JFK was a "Sex Freak"

Guess what Robert?

Im sure JFK cheated on Jackie many times

Im sure JFK had many woman through out his life

Im sure that JFK ventured outside of what you consider "normal" sex

After knowing all thse things I still like and greatly admire JFK

I have had these two emails from Jan Klimkowski and Charles R. Drago. Do members think we should delete these postings?

To John Simkin

Myra Bronstein has published details of private and confidential emails at the Education Forum.

This is to inform you that the Education Forum does not have permission to publish details of my private email correpondence, and I hereby request you to remove all such emails, and alleged excerpts of emails, immediately.

Jan Klimkowski

Dear Mr. Simkin,

Please cease and desist from publishing my private-emails. You are doing so without my permission on the Spartacus site, of which you are a co-owner.

Be advised that, should the practice continue, I shall seek all remedies available to me under international and other relevant statutes.

Further, you do not have my permission to publish copyrighted material owned by me. Again, should you do so, I shall seek legal remedies.

Sincerely,

Charles R. Drago

cc:

Dennis J. McCarten, Esq.

Dont remove them John

They are just trying to cover their tracks

You didnt post them John, so I dont think you have anything to worry about

Just to spell out my own position on these matters. . . :

Jacks heart is in the right place, but I disagree with him on certain specifics.

1. I agree completely that the limo stopped. There is no question (in my mind) about the validity of that statement. I interviewed the key witnesses back in November, 1971, and I believe what they told me. (Moreover, if that is true, then more than one film must have been faked). The films of Dealey Plaza must have been accessed, reviewed, and editedand in making this statement, I am not claiming to know how the particulars, just that something of this sort must have occurred, to explain the fact that the car stop was removed from more than one film.

2. Because of that, I understand (and am very sympathetic to) the idea that altered reality is a legitimate way of describing what happened. How else should one describe a situation in which multiple film records were altered?

3. One place---an important one--where I disagree with Jack White: I do not believe that Zapruder was not up on the pedestal, and did not take the film (or a film).

4. The alteration of filmsnotice, I said films (plural)in Dealey Plaza was a critical (and central) part of the plot to kill President Kennedy. The autopsy had to be falsified, but also bystander film had to be dealt with. Exactly how this was accomplished is as yet unresolvedat least, from the standpoint of published information.

5. It is my personal opinion that, starting later on Friday evening, Zapruder who was not previously involved in any plotting or any collusion--was figuratively (if not literally) given a tap on the shoulder and brought into collusion with others, along with some explanation as to why his cooperation was needed; and that further, from that point onward, he knowingly (if not intentionally) participated in this operation. He did so by surrendering his film to those he believed to be legitimate reps of the government which then led to a situation in which an altered film was back in his possession by Saturday morning, for sale to LIFE magazine.

6. Did Zapruder know that the film he was provided back (for sale) did not have the same image content as the one he took? That is a most interesting question.

7. I do not claim to know Zapruders state of mind on Friday night, or what he thought he was involved in; just that he was cooperating with legitimate authority, and was very likelypaid handsomely for his help. We know the contract price jumped from $50,000 on Saturday to $150,000 on Monday, 11/25/63 (a fact that was concealed from the public for years); and I would assume there was probably unacknowledged cash, possibly a lot of cash, that was paid, as well. (This latter statement is my personal opinion).

I am truly sorry to see that the puzzle of how the film was altered so fastwhich is truly the heart of the matter if one is to attempt to solve the Kennedy assassination---has led to (what I believe) are incorrect hypotheses as to how it was altered.

Personally, I find it ironic that those who are smart enough to think outside the box on this issue of film alteration happen to entertain hypotheses in other areas which I do not believe to be true. Specifically, I am referring here to theories that we did not go to the moon, and/or theories re 9/11i.e., that the World Trade Center was the result of controlled demolition, or that the Pentagon was not hit by a plane.

In my opinion, neither the media nor the public will ever take seriously claims of Zapruder film alteration if those who propound them also are tied to conspiracy theories about faked moon landings and/or 9/11. However, I realize that those who subscribe to these theories are sincere, and so there is not much that can be done about this awkward situation. Jack White has meticulously reviewed the Dealey Plaza films and many of his observations are important.

I know that Doug Horne feels much the same way. We both believe the Z film was altered (although we do not agree as to the particulars of how it was done) but we also reject theories that we did not go to the moon (multiple times, I might add) or the 9/11 theories propounded on this board.

Happy New Year.

DSL

1/01/2011; 11:45 AM PST

Los Angeles, CA

My stance on the Z-film alteration is very much in line with David's

I also believe Zapruder was on the pedestal, I also believe that Zapruder was filming

I believe the Limo did stop, and was taken out

I believe the wide Limo turn (as seen by Roy Truly) was taken out

I also believe that we landed on the moon in 1969 (and all the times after that) and the images are real

I do not believe in a 9/11 cover up

So for all the members who seem to think that all alterationists have the same exact theories about everything (including the moon landings and 9/11) please think again

My take on the backyard photos of Lee Harvey Oswald? They are completely legit because Marina in the year 2010 says she took them. The Marina of 1963-1964 was completely controlled by the murderers of JFK.

I think backyard photos were part of LHO's sheep dipping operations; creating the fake "pro-Castro Marxist" persona that would be use to frame him posthumously, after they killed him.

OMG Robert will you LOOK at the damn things. You do not even have to study the evidence here, though that would be helpful too, they are so beyond FAKE!!! And The article that Jim Fetzer did is fantastic. I don't care what Marina says. Her ability to change stories probably has a lot to do with fear. Recall that Harvery, upon seeing these fakes said they were fake and that his face was superimposed on somone's head. Look at the damn chin!!!! Geez!!!!

Dawn

Just tell Robert that LBJ himself superimposed LHOs head on someone elses body and he will jump all over the Backyard pics being fake.

Duncan

If the limo turn was taken out (which it was), or just a single frame is missing from the film, then that means the film is altered

So guess what?

The Z-film has been altered

There is nothing you can say that can or will change that fact

So all the mods were using a single fake name to make posts under?

No matter how you try to defend doing that its still wrong

If the post you want to make is to dangerous to make under your own name then dont make it at all

I post under my real name on every forum, and if I post something intense then I have to take the heat for it

I would never hide behind a fake user name

I have been wanting a copy of Armstrong's book for some time, but the price of the ones that I find on-line are very expensive. Wondering if anyone knows where I can get a copy for something less than the $100 minimum that I see these days.

Nope

I have been trying for days to get one under the $100.00 range (or the range that I can buy a book and not have my wife slap me around)

Just what sort of crimninal charges do you think she is guilty of?

Thats my question as well

Its a forum on the internet, you guys are going to have a real hard time trying to bring criminal charges against Myra in a court of law

Im not saying what she did was ok (I have no clue what she did or whats happening) and as a member of the DPF I would like it to survive and keep going even though I dont post that much on the DPF I still read threads on it every day

Im interested to know what Myra did

Duncan thats the same thing

When Gary and I were on good terms and I was getting Emails from him all the time he said to me in some of the Emails "You can post this on the forum if you want to"

My complaint with Gary is, at what point does his Howard Hughes act become a Clifford Irving farce? And how do we know when it does...if it hasn't already?

Very well said Mark!

I bet Gary Mack has the huge 6th floor museum freezer full of Bannana Ripple Ice Cream that he eats all day long while watching "Ice Station Zebra" over and over.

Lee and I tell you the things that you do that drive members crazy and what do you do?

You go and post your "Top 50 Books on the 1963 Coup d'etat that I have NOT read"

Now your just trying to be a smart ass and piss members off on purpose

Robert

It's difficult to say this without sounding rude but I'm afraid your posts are sincerely beginning to get on my nerves.

I think most of us here are well aware of your "thoughts" regarding the assassination and who you believe was involved. It's all getting a bit repetitive now. I'd be very surprised if there's anyone left who wanted your LBJ/CIA killed Kennedy file who hasn't already requested it.

I did meet you briefly in Dallas in November and in person you appeared to be quite level headed but unfortunately your posts have a hint of unchecked and unregulated mania about them. I don't know whether anyone would agree with me on this point and quite frankly I don't care. It's something I've been putting off saying for a number of weeks.

If you're contacting Police departments, City Mayors, and God knows what other type of institutions in the same way and with the same tone as your posts then I really believe you're probably doing the critical community more harm than good.

I would also concur with Michael Hogan's recent feedback he gave you concerning reading some of the books you keep "advertising" because the impression you've projected inside my own mind is, at the moment, quite unfavorable. Most of the members here get up in arms when it comes to DVP unfavorably "reviewing" books on Amazon that he hasn't read. Why should we expect anything less when it is a "critic" proclaiming the greatness of books that they obviously haven't read?

I'm sorry if my position may sound a little harsh but there really isn't any other way to say it. If DVP was acting like this I'd be all over it like a rash. I'm sure there would be quite a queue.

Lee

Thank you Lee!

I feel the same way, but Robert seems to think im a nobody sitting in the peanut gallary (Whatever the hell that means)

I agree with you 100%, Robert is hurting the CT movement, not helping it

He has admitted himself that he has only read like 5 books on the assassination from cover to cover

The rest he has just "skimmed" through, he also said that reading a book on the assassination from cover to cover was a huge waste of time

Whats crazy is that only a small handful of us have called him out on it

Then he ranks these books, reviews them and recommends them to other researchers

To me that is a complete slap in the face to researcher like you and me who do read the books that we have in our home libraries

Robert you need to CHILL OUT, stop calling the DPD and the Mayor (which to me is just hilarious )and stop posting your top 1000 lists and stop trying to shove you LBF file down everyones throat

1963 Coup d'Etat, aka JFK assassination."

So now your new slang "1963 Coup d'Etat" is now also known as the JFK assassination?

LMFAO!

You cant just say the JFK assassination like every other researcher on the planet can you?

At least your adding an AKA now

(and certainly have not read them all ... skim yes, read no).

That statement is beyond ludicrous

Dean,

Because he “talks trash” to you, he’s SCARED to post...? that’s rubbish.

The last thing this forum needs, as you (and I for that matter) so often prove, is more trash talking. So if anything, those messages belong in PM’s to you and in emails or other private communications to anyone else.

If we would stick to a discussion of the facts instead of the constant bashing, the archives of this website would be 1/3 the size.

Poor Dean... big bad GaryM attacked you. You have a past. That's nice. You know what you know and present your case quite well, what difference does it make what GMack PMs you? I disagree with much of what he sends me, and have encountered the same kind of off-topic “discussion” from him as with others on the live forum.

History or not, you posted your thoughts on an open forum and I defended Gary’s position, criticized his support of the “official” conclusions, and discussed options and alternatives. Being SCARED has nothing to do with it. Bill Miller presents Gary’s difficult position quite well - thanks Bill. And let’s try to remember, Gary’s actions are nothing compared to the likes of Bugliosi, Myers and Posner who’s influence is much more substantial and who'se opposition must remain ever vigil - and I thank them all for it.

and They don’t post here either... they scared? or just smart to steer clear of the insult fest that would be heaped upon them? Even for those of us “on the same side” - insults are the norm... there is no CT consensus... and as Salandria put it, that was one of the main objectives of leaking the conspiracy to begin with. I tend to agree.

It’s interesting how you can read thru my posts and call me “naïve”.

Great job? You got that right. Thanks.

Lame

You are out of your mind!

Folks, I suggest calling the Dallas Mayor's office and the Dallas police department and complain about the Dallas police continually harassing Robert Groden

Are you kidding me? Do you think we all live in the city of Dallas?

What right does anyone who lives outside the city, county, even the state of Texas have to call and complain about a city police matter?

Are you out of your mind Robert?

I hope you call the DPD over and over so you get arrested for harrasment

In other news im glad Groden won, I have always been and always will be behind Groden and his work

I find the below a bit naive... his livelihood is his vested interest in his "public" position.

An IBM spokesman/representative is not going to ackowledge evidence of thier involvement in the Holocaust by helping the Nazis find, and inventory the Jews of Europe.... regardless of the evidence... And Condi Rice is not going to tell us they were expecting airplanes to hit buildings....

His posting on these forums can be seen as presenting the views of the Museum, just like when I say somehting in public about the Lottery I work for... the assumption is it represents the position of the company and not my personal beliefs.... the fact that he allows some of the more sanitary exchanges to be posted (and I am no expert on ALL his posted comversations... anything contrversial in there?), shows he's not "scared", just careful.

Gary's been ever so helpful of late to whoever asks. I've seen a lot of "Gary Mack Emailed and said" on a few forums of late.

Yeah, what would we do without him?

Maybe one of these days he'll strap on a pair and start posting for himself.

It will never happen, he is to scared

Gary also writes me from time to time and we have some very intersting email exchanges, some of which he agrees to let me post and share....

Most recently though, not so much, as our discussion has turned to why the Museum does not give equal (or any for that matter) time to any of the competing THEORIES that have as much if not more reliable evidence than the Governmental investigative THEORIES that are put forth so effectively by the museum.

without getting into the details, as he requested our recent exchange not be posted,I was going to send this reply but felt it more valuable to post.... I hope you agree...

and therein lies the problem facing the real citizens of the US... the continuing attitudes of people such as yourself, who actually have the opportunity to change history to reflect reality as opposed to the fantasy fostered upon us all these years. When you finally realize that what you are defending is the unsupportable (at least with verifiable evidence) OPINION of the most powerful and corrupt people the US has known... you could also realize that YOUR voice could carry significant weight in setting the record a bit more straight.

I realize you enjoy your position, salary, authority and influence and are most likely not empowered to make the waves necessary to bring light to the truth. Claiming there is no “evidence” in the face of it may be the company line or you just refusing to see. Not a single piece of your rebuttal to me refutes the conclusion that “we can’t place Oswald with a rifle in that window”...

Or Wade’s knowing he was FBI, or the Exec session where they simply cannot figure out how JFK is hit in the throat from the back...

or the fact that the 2 shots heard almost of top of each other by people in all areas of the Plaza makes it impossible for even that Rifle to have been the lone culprit... let alone Oswald

it’s as if none of this exists for you or the Museum

or if it does, you conveniently forget that the evidence FOR the conspiracy is presented BY the very investigation/commissions/panels you defend.....

It’s as if you’ve completely dismissed the US Standard Operating Policy of maintaining civil unrest to justify the attacks on civil liberties and the growth of the military/governmental machine...

As if the weight of evidence brought forth by experts and researchers without your agenda, without your fears or without “their” control, is simply something you can dismiss with a wave and an email.

Weitzman wrote what he wrote, Baker wrote what he did, and at least 60 people heard and/or saw evidence of shots from OTHER than the 6th floor...

But as Douglass, Salandria and others have brought to light... the why and what for, and what happened next of the assassination points to the real situation that most of the people on this planet understand as being the real history of the event. and when the final documents see the light of day, and we can conclude they are indeed real and not created to maintain the charade... the Lone Nut, "Oswald did it alone crowd" can finally just go away to their place in history along side those who believe the earth was flat and the universe revolved around us.....

sadly, those who subscribe to the “universe (as we define it) revolves around us” belief are all too real and all too well entrenched so as anyone pushing too hard in it’s face... simply gets eliminated.

Gary,

thanks for all you do help with and support... the 6th Floor Museum should, in my opinion, be the one place that offers its visitors all the relevant theories in the same light.... the “government endorsed one” given the poor evidence that supports it should not be offered to the exclusion of all others.

But then again, does the Museum of Natural History also present the notion that the Universe and World were created in 6 days about 6000 years ago along side their dinosaur bones exhibit? One has substantial evidence backing it while the other requires FAITH.

The time has come for the FAITH in Oswald, the lone killer, to be put aside... and let the FACTS speak for themselves

You have no clue David

Gary Mack is scared because he talks trash to me in PMs but would never post the same trash he talks to me on the forum

He told me in a PM that "I know nothing about the assassination" and that I was "Stupid to believe in Jack White and any alteration theory"

So yes he is SCARED to post that on the forum, yet he can post that all day long to me in PMs

Now does it look "naive" to you David?

You could have just asked me first why I would say that instead of sticking your foot in your mouth by making a thread about it when im sure you could have guessed that Gary and I had some sort of history

Great job David!