Dean Hagerman

RM: Tatro says that besides Adolph Hiter, Lyndon Johnson was the worst man he can think of.

Eddie really said that?

I thought he used to teach history.

I mean there was this guy Stalin who was pretty awful. Then there was Mussolini who was no day at the beach.

You could also name several accessories to Stalin--like his chief of the Secret Service who he put together death lists with him on a regular basis.

Himmler of the SS was no picnic.

If you want to go back to the Roman Empire, there were several emperors who were lamentable, like Nero and Caligula.

I mean there were also several Japanese military leaders placed on trial for war crimes. Let us never forget the rape of the city of Nanking, which was really kind of appalling in its outer limits.

Want to talk about the Spanish inquisition?

How about that guy in Africa: Idi Amin? There were some guys in Asia that were pretty awful: Suharto, Pol Pot.

I mean we can go on and on.

To put LBJ up against that list? And I have not even really gotten started yet.

The Dark Side of Camelot by Seymour Hersh is an excellent book and I highly recommend it. Through Seymour Hersh, you get the voices of the CIA people and perhaps Secret Service people who hated John Kennedy.

Uh no it is not. If you analyze the book thoroughly, it should actually be called the Dark Side of Seymour Hersh. It shows just how attached Hersh was to the CIA and how all the people who praised him previously were not aware of this. There is literally almost no passage that can be accepted at face value once you take it apart. I would not even say it is good at measuring how much the CIA or SS hated JFK. Why? Because Hersh, in large part, was just doing a job for the Agency. ANd this is what they do as a matter of rote in these situations. The guy gets the assignment, and everyone has a script. e. g. Helms' Best Boy, Halpern.

THe book was released right before the 30th anniversary and right after Posner. So it was the Establishment's second volley at Oliver Stone's film. Just like Posner's book cannot be taken seriously, neither can Hersh's. Because its not really a book. Its a bill of goods.

Great post Jim, of course it flys right over Roberts head

Gary's been ever so helpful of late to whoever asks. I've seen a lot of "Gary Mack Emailed and said" on a few forums of late.

Yeah, what would we do without him?

Maybe one of these days he'll strap on a pair and start posting for himself.

It will never happen, he is to scared

Robert will NEVER understand the difference

No matter how many times you or I explain it to him Steve

LBJ is NOT a serial killer Robert, read the definition!

Hitler was not a serial killer, he never killed anyone

Mussolini was not a serial killer, he never killed anyone

Harry Truman was not a serial killer, he never killed anyone

Curtis "Bombs Away" Lemay was not a serial killer, he never killed anyone

LBJ WAS NOT a serial killer, HE NEVER KILLED A SINGLE PERSON

Steve is correct when young people view this forum and see you calling LBJ a serial killer and you calling the assassination "The 1963 Coup d'etat" 100 times in each post that you make they will never take you seriously

I mean the members already dont take you seriously, but the young students who read this forum are the ones we need to pay attention to what we post for

And these were 2 of Kennedy's closest friends ... so CLOSE in fact that he used to have sex orgies with them.

Prove that

These researchers have seen more than enough healthy debate and robust discussion. At some point in time they had enough

information to make up their minds. And at some point in time they have decided that it is not incumbent on them to continue

to give Baker their unconditional respect, or continue to keep an "open mind" about an issue that has already been decided.

At some point in time, for them the benefit of doubt for Baker's story became unsupportable.

If Judyth Baker's claims are not true, in the eyes of many her story is a repugnant one.

These are my exact feelings Michael

You said it better then I would have

If I had to name the strongest and most revealing evidence in the 1963 Coup d'Etat, I would say it was what the usurper, traitor, murderer president Lyndon Johnson told his most beloved mistress Madeleine Duncan Brown

You think that the strongest piece of evidence is what LBJ told his mistress?

Double post

Like others have said you are a great speaker Greg

I enjoyed your presentation

Excellet job Greg!

Bob "LBJ CAUSED THE HINDENBURG TO CRASH" Morrow

I cant take it!

Bob "LBJ WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE 1974 SUPER OUTBREAK OF TORNADOES IN THE MIDWEST" Morrow

Ahaaaahaaaaaaa

Dave you are killing me! Im going to break a rib from laughing so hard!

Please keep up the nick names for Robert

I still feel bad for Xenia Ohio

Robert "LBJ WAS A SERIAL KILLER" Morrow

Bob "LBJ Murdered JFK" Morrow

Bob "1963 Coup d'Etat" Morrow

No Dave I have never been accused of being another member

1963 Coup d'Etat

Just call it the assassination!

Stop trying to use your own slang to describe what happened

Every post of yours that I read I shake my head in disgust at

Robert, i confess we (Team Duncan) have frequent meetings in different locations to brainstorm

your research to debunk it. Unfortunately we run out of our budget in the end of the year and couldn't have held our meeting

in Australia cause Duncan reached his year budget of 15.000.

Martin

Don't panick, Martin. I made a few phone calls to you know who ( wink wink ) and our budget has been increased to unlimited funding, effective immediately. The Australian "Vacation" is still all systems go.

The "Get Harris " campaign must continue at all costs. If the world finds out that there was a deranged google eyed finger trembling scissors snipping Venetian blinds mutilating window smashing assassin, the games over.

Carry on with the cause. dib dib

What was the name of the Hotel we are all meeting at in Sydney again?

I do not like John McAdams one bit

If someone starts a thread on the death penalty I will post in it, but I started a thread a couple weeks ago that got thrown way off topic right away and I didnt care at all, in fact I love when threads take a turn into other subjects, thats what forums are all about.

I respect your right to want to murder people.

No I want my beloved state of California to put the 700+ killers to death, they can start with the 10 killers on death row from my city/county, most of them have been there since the 1980s. Only one man Darrel Rich (a real serial killer by definition, not Roberts crazy definition) from my city has been put to death at San Quentin. Only one!

I dont want to murder anybody, thats the warden of San Quentin's job.

"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."

John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence

I think U.S. murder statistics, for an incredibly long time, have demonstrated that the death penalty has absolutely no deterrent effect.

The mind of "Professor" McAdams is simply saying he has no problem murdering other human beings. A bit similar to the minds of the people he has no problem murdering. The big difference between him and them is that many of the murders in the U.S. that are committed are perpetrated by uneducated young men from minority groups. The vast majority of the people on Death Row are black and Hispanic males.

I suppose he thinks heavy penalties for drug dealing and possession also acts as a deterrent?

The system, ideology and culture that fuels the amount of murders experienced in the United States is never discussed by him. In his world you simply have to deal with the effects, not the causes.

If taking a life is fundamentally wrong, then it is fundamentally wrong no matter who is taking it. But I'm sure he manages to weave his weird thinking into a Christian value framework?

An odd, odd man, to say the least. I struggle to get to grips with the fact that he actually "educates" young minds.

He would no doubt think that my own views would be tantamount to me condoning the terrible crimes that the Death Penalty is metered out for?

His warped logic permeates his entire belief system and not simply his views on the assassination of JFK.

So John Wyane Gacy should have not been executed?

Ted Bundy should have been allowed to live?

Have you ever heard about Richard Speck? The courts made a huge mistake in Whitherspoon vs Illinois and let Speck live instead of being put to death.

So he lived in prison snorting coke, smoking weed, drinking liquor every day and making fun of all the girls that he killed

Speck Video

How anybody in the world can say that they are against the death penalty after watching this video is beyond me.

I just wish California would get on the ball like Texas and start executing a death row inmate every week or so.

Badgeman was the strongest piece when I first started back in the late 80s

Now its the altered Zapruder film

conspiracy-happy charlatans like Donald B. Thomas

Come on Dave! Thats way out of line

Charlatan? Really? Give me a break

Steve Roy posted an article on Haslam's thesis by Frank A. Riddick, of the Ochsner Journal, in post #129 ... and in post #130, he posted a letter to the editor of GAMBIT written by Alton Ochsner's son, Dr. John Ochsner. Mike Hogan followed up with a link to, and an excerpt from, the GAMBIT article that prompted John Ochsner's response, in post #132. All three posts appear on page 9 of this thread. I followed up with post #140, page 10, on the the genesis of AIDS ... and how far back its existence has been documented, as well as whether or not there is any indication it infected the polio vaccine.

Here is an additional article that addresses Haslam's work and theory. It is an article titled, Dr. Mary's monkeythat appeared in the July 2007 edition of New Orleans Magazine, written by Bronson Lutz, M.D. It notes: "Physician and columnist Dr. Brobson [sic] Lutz examines a book that alleges a 1960s medical conspiracy with global implications."

Haslam review by Bronson Lutz, M.D. in NO Magazine July 2007

All bold mine.

Lutz writes that Ochsner was,

"...an early proponent of the link between smoking and lung cancer. He was a chest surgeon interested in all cancers and was elected national president of the American Cancer Society. He was also known for his ultraconservative politics, except when lobbying for federal funds to expand his hospital."

On Sherman,

Early in her career, Sherman published several papers pertaining to viral research beginning in the 1940s. After medical school, she finished a residency in orthopedics – a tough row to hoe for a female physician in those days. In ‘52, Ochsner recruited Sherman to New Orleans. He offered her a partnership at Ochsner Foundation Hospital, her own cancer laboratory and a faculty position at Tulane.

From 1952 until her death in ‘64, Sherman ....... was on the staff of several local hospitals but really thrived in her research laboratory, working with bone and soft tissue cancers. She published several research papers and served on expert committees dealing with bone pathology and cancers.

Lutz notes that he had been called a couple of times over the years since Sherman's death by Don Keith,a writer and editor of New Orleans Magazine. Lutz says Keith was,"the first to smell a conspiracy with a cover-up" in Sherman's demise, and that Keith was obsessed with it and had written about it several times.

Lutz writes that,

Former aide to Professor Longhair and advertising executive-turned-author Edward “Ed” T. Haslam has expanded on Keith’s earlier work

....... Haslam has woven Sherman’s murder into a conspiracy tale involving a clandestine mouse laboratory operated by David Ferrie on Louisiana Parkway; a heavily guarded linear accelerator located Uptown; monkeys from Tulane Medical School; a young high school science fair winner and Lee Harvey Oswald’s secret lover; and a plot to kill Fidel Castro with cancer causing monkey cells orchestrated by a right wing marriage between Carlos Marcello and Alton Ochsner, Sr. – the stealth viruses were then dumped in Haiti where they simmered for almost two decades before erupting into a worldwide epidemic of various cancers and AIDS.

Lutz continues writing about Sherman's autopsy, performed by Dr. Monroe Samuels, and noting that Keith, like Haslam in DMM, was fascinated by her burn injuries, "The only remaining portion of Sherman’s right arm was a piece of her upper arm bone. The rest of the extremity was burned to a crisp."

I called Dr.Samuels, who remembers the autopsy and discounts an offsite thermal injury. “She had severe right-sided burns with exposure of her liver. There was no soot in her lungs meaning that she was dead before any fire. I have seen similar thermal burns in autopsies of bodies found on burning beds,” Samuels says.

More from Lutz:

The book contains several factual errors unrelated to the conspiracy plot

, ranging from a minor misnaming of a New Orleans housing development to major scientific glitches.

Haslam gets a D in medical history and an F in virology.

In setting the stage for Tulane as an institution with a long history in tropical disease research and “capable and willing to conduct clandestine governmental work” Haslam writes: “It was Tulane that proved malaria was spread by mosquitoes.”

Tulane’s roots in tropical medicine run deep and discoveries especially in parasitology defined Tulane as a major player in tropical diseases. However, a French army doctor and a British physician in the late 1800s discovered malarial parasites in blood and described its life cycle involving infected mosquitoes biting humans.

Both received separate Nobel prizes; this work was not done at Tulane.

A frozen human blood specimen collected in 1959 has tested positive for HIV

and

it’s implausible that radiated monkey viruses in the ‘60s independently mutated into this same virus. Ionizing radiation can indeed cause genetic mutations but Haslam’s theory has a major flaw. Radiation can no more turn one virus into another virus than it can turn an apple tree into a fig tree. It just doesn’t happen that way.

Lutz asks a good question:

"How did Haslam name his book Dr. Mary’s Monkey? Not once did he document her association with a live monkey or with monkey research."

"Mysteries abound on many levels." Lutz goes on to say, and then provides a list of instances where Haslam claims he was told things at different times by different people while growing up ...

...like being at a Lake Pontchartrain dock with his father as a youth, seeing a sailor with a monkey, and his father telling him that monkeys carry “weird viruses that we don’t yet understand.”

...like his New Orleans Academy history teacher in 1963 or 1964 warning students "that the polio vaccine contained monkey viruses that would spread through the blood supply causing a new generation of diseases."

...like the high school class where Nicky Chetta allegedly told the class many things about Ferrie, after Ferrie's death, including info about a secret lab and monkeys being injected with monkey viruses, etc.

...like Haslam's former girlfriend, Barbara of the party story, having lived in Ferrie's mouse-keeping apartment (the extra apartment Haslam posits across the street from where Ferrie actually lived) while they were dating .... where she got quite cheap rent because of the lingering smell, and that she baked bread to cover it up.

...like having been told by a Latin American graduate student at a 1979 Tulane graduate seminar that Ochsner ("El Padrino")was working on a virus to get Castro.

And more.

Lutz wraps up by dispelling the notion that AIDS could have resulted from a secret lab in New Orleans in 1963 ... or from any polio vaccine, noting that,

"The polio immunization theory fell by the wayside a couple of years ago. Scientists found old batches of the implicated vaccine in a laboratory freezer. It tested negative for DNA to all known monkey viruses and strains of HIV."

And ends the article saying,

"Recent work by virologists, evolutionary biologists and molecular geneticists genetically traced the HIV virus infecting humans to wild chimpanzees living in a Cameroon jungle. There may be no cure or vaccine to protect against AIDS but the mystery of its origins has been solved."

Haslam's story evolves from him allegedly having been told, warned and otherwise informed about monkey viruses, infected polio vaccines and the like from the time he was a child ... add some undocumented occurrences while in college ... and years later he speculates all the way to conclusions that tie this all together and marry it to the unsolved murder of Dr. Mary Sherman; he concludes she was killed,or fatally injured,at least,by a secret particle accelerator while doing secret work with secret monkey viruses, that after her death, just could have been unleashed in the Caribbean by David Ferrie ... thereby disseminating AIDS out to the world. But the foundation of Haslam's thesis falls with AIDS being documented to have existed long before Ferrie, Vary and Dr. Mary could have been colluding on anything in Ferrie's kitchen the summer of 1963, and unused vials of the polio vaccine have tested negative for the AIDS virus.

Physicians who knew and worked with Dr. Mary Sherman poo-poo the very idea that she was working on any monkey project at all ... and state there was no linear particle accelerator where Haslam has concluded there was one. Just what foundation does Haslam really have for *that* part of his story, the alleged particle accelerator ... and for it, accidental or not, being the cause of burn damage to Mary Sherman's body and the reason for an elaborate cover up in her death? Why would Sherman, who had "a partnership at Ochsner Foundation Hospital, her own cancer laboratory and a faculty position at Tulane" ... have to work in secrecy with a rag tag team of part time amateurs in a kitchen laboratory or be involved with any secret particle accelerator. Does the particle accelerator portion of Haslam's thesis stand up any better than his take on the polio vaccine and HIV/AIDS?

Bests,

Barb :-)

don't people have the right to choose to read or ignore the threads of their choice - I do! I ignore many threads that don't deal with aspects of the assassination that interest me.

I do the same thing that Bill does

I ignore tons of pointless threads that are started all the time, no need to complain, just ignore them

If Duncan started 100 threads debunking more Harris garbage then I will read each and every one and post my views and opinions in each and every one because im sick and tired of Harris just making crap up and passing it off as fact.

Awesome Bill!

Like Pat I have been looking for the full video forever

Im dowloading it right now

Am I really the only guy around here who gives a damn about the assassination?

No, but you are the only one who cares about a Scissors Snipping Venentian Blinds Window Smashing Assassin firing a missed shot from the Daltex as the limo turns the corner on to Elm, causing Kennedy to never smile again after balling his hand in to a fist and then calmly wiping the sharp non wound inflicting flying ashphalt debris from his hair.

Really, Dean, I don't think you contribute much to the conversation/debate about the JFK assassination. Mostly its just chirping from the peanut gallery. Why don't you go do some primary research instead of dumping on others?

Get back to me after you learn how to read a whole book cover to cover

And if you knew how to use the search feature on the forum you could go back and read the important threads that I have been a part of instead running your mouth about my contributions (which far out weigh anything you have ever come close to doing)

Dean, only a fool would read every page of every book

So me and 99% of JFK researchers are fools?

It really is a waste of time to read most books cover to cover. That is not a time efficient way to gain information.

Time is short, so be selective in what you read.

Are you joking?

What a slap in the face to all authors who have wrote books on the assassination!

And what a slap in the face to any researcher who makes a top list of books when you list 50 but have only read 12 of them.

How in the world do you think its ok to list a book (in your case 38 of them) that you have not read cover to cover?

Your killing me Robert!

Your not doing the right thing, your list means nothing to me or anyone Robert, and the fact that you say its a waste of time to read a book from cover to cover is the nail in the coffin.

I cant believe im reading these things.