Bernice Moore
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Posts posted by Bernice Moore
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Well it did not read, that way, Bill, but I do appreciate your reply..
Take care...
Thanks.....B
*************
""The article has intriguing details, but also disinfo, wittingly or unwittingly. There was no assassin in the storm drain. And Holt did certainly not carry "papers identifying him as Gus W. Abrahms."
Rogers, Holt, Sturgis and Harrelson were certainly there. They were indeed assassins..... except not that day !
Wim""
So says Wim.....
B.....
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Under Articles, Bernice posted a portion of a book by Bill Sloan, Braking Silence (1993), in which former USMC/CIA agent Jim Huggins, aka Hugh Huggins, Hugh Howell, details his life as an American assassin.
Sloan, I think, is also the author of Jean Hill's book, and while he did a good job with Jean, he apparently bought this story hook, line and sinker.
Huggins is an important witness if you believe he worked in Cuba, South America and Southeast Asia, primarily for Tracy Barnes, though also for the Kennedys, mainly killing people on orders.
Called the Chameleon, because he can play both sides of the fence.
He claims to have killed a guy on a Nicaraguan dance floor with piano wire, in front of many witnesses, was arrested and released.
On Nov. 22, 63 he was in Florida, having just returned from a mission to Cuba in which over a dozen people were killed in a shootout, though apparently none of this made the Cuban press.
Notified of the JFK assassination, Huggins is ordered to Dallas by RFK and is flown there in a military fighter jet. He lands while LBJ is taking the oath of office on AF1. Sloan tells us that he's verified that a military jet fighter did land at that time, so that clinches it.
Flying back to DC he is allowed into the autopsy room at RFK's orders.
He concludes that there were four assassins - Charles Harrelson, Frank Sturgis, Charles Rogers and a fourth one he has not yet identified.
I don't know about this guy, but it sure sounds like he could verify everything Wim and his confidants have offered.
BK
***************
Aw now Bill, I would have thought you especially, would not kill the messengers, after all....
And that was all you got out of it....ok..Here have another go....
B....
John.....duck...
I am sure Wim will be coming along..... After all who knows positively whom they were.....??
Bernice Moore May 14 2005,
May 14, 2005
"The Chameleon"
Jim Huggins aka ( Hugh Huggins ) aka ( Hugh Howell)
Marine/undercover CIA Agent, 4/55 to 10/65.
Some Information From:
"JFK: Breaking The Silence" Bill Sloan
(1993), Chapter 9, pp. 175-189.
"I know which closets most of the skeletons are in." he says " I know where a lot of the bodies are buried."
"" At fifty seven.....Except for a handful of close friends and family members, Jim Huggins has never confided his findings to anyone.His story had never before been published in any form, and he says he has agreed to it's publication now ( 93) for only one primary reason. ""......."I'm getting old and my health is failing ,I've had several light heart attacks and strokes since my surgery, and I know I don't have all that much time left, regardless. I'll take my chances with people shooting at me if I have to, but I don't want to go to my grave with everything I know weighing on my conscience."
The "Chameleon" as he was called while working undercover for the CIA..retired to Waco, Texas .The names he went by were Hugh Howell, and Hugh Huggins...He was short in stature barely five feet tall, carried a .22-derringer strapped to his ankle, and a sixteen shot, 9 millimeter Baretta in his briefcase, and a pump shotgun loaded with special ammunition that was kept in readiness..He is weakened from open heart surgery ..There have been at least 5 attempts on his life since the assassination, and gunmen still stalked him even after he moved to the quiet surroundings, a body guard stood nearby.......He leads or led a semi seclusive lifestyle...under the name Jim Huggins..The last known attempt was in 1988 while his wife and two children were at church, one Sunday morning, someone in and old Ford mustang fired two shots at Huggins outside a drugstore in a Waco suburb..He immediately threw himself to the ground, and one bullet hit the sidewalk inches from his head ...so close that a ricocheting fragment hit his cheek and broke his glasses....The Police were informed, but no arrests were ever made..
"" This was merely the latest episode in a career studded with high-risk assignments, derring do, and dark, dreadful secrets.The cloak and danger adventures in which Huggins says Hugh Howell participated are more astonishing that all the 007 novels put together .The difference, he maintains, is that they actually happened.""
"For more than ten years," he says. " from April 1955 until October 1965 ".I worked as an undercover agent for the CIA. I received many of my assignments during this time directly from members of the Kennedy family, and I personally took out ( killed) thirty seven people ,most of them in foreign countries, but some of them in the States."
He joined the Marines at 18 in 1954.."He was a husky ,muscular youngster who made up for his lack of height with a cocky toughness backed by extraordinary physical strength and exceptional athletic ability .Because of that ability ,he had attracted scolarship offers during high school from several colleges ,despite the fact that he stood only four feet ,eleven inches in his stocking feet .But an early run-in with the law ---specifically federal alchohol ,tobacco ,and firearms agents ---cancelled any hopes he might have had for a collegiate sports career." I'd been driving advance and backup for some whiskey runners back home in South Carolina since I was about fifteen ." he recalled " I got caught enough times that it came down to a choice of being sent to a reformatory or going into the service ,so I joined the marines."
He finished boot camp at Parris Island, South Carolina ,he excelled both physically and mentally.He was selected to attend several special schools, when one day in April of 1955, stationed at Camp Lejeune, N.C..he was called into the office of his commanding officer and told he was being considered for an important assignment ,introduced to a plainclothesman, and driven to a hotel in Baltimore.."I was taken up to this suite and introduced to Joseph Kennedy".Huggins says," I didn't know much about him at the time ,except that he was very rich and very powerful and had some important job in the government .We talked for a while, and he said he thought I could fill a particular position he had in mind. He said it would involve handling top-secret assignments for him and other members of the Kennedy family, as well as for the U.S. intelligence." It scared the hell out of me, but it sounded exciting too." ...""And this, says Huggins,was how a nineteen year old marine with a reputation for hard fists, quick moves, sound instincts and raw ability began an incredible wide assortment of covert missions for a section within the Central Intelligence Agency informally know as the " Kennedy Group""
For the next two or three years he took the best training available in languages ,weapons, and martial arts..he earned a fifth-degree black belt in both karate, judo and a certificate in jujitsu --demolitions, fight training, and some other sepecialties.."Altogether I trained in nine
countries".Huggins stated..most of the time he was detached duty and assigned to the "Kennedy Group"..and all told he was gone, from his assigned duty stations with the Marines for about nine and a half of the next eleven years....The Agency swore him in as an agent at Langley AFB. not far from the CIA in McLean,Virginia..""He has learned since that 97% of the covert CIA operatives during the 50's and 60's were recruited from the military just as he was.""
He was equipped with a whole new ID..he was a licensed agent, wore civillian clothes,had the driver's license, credit cards, and other official papers, and carried the official Id of Hugh Howell...
Money, cars, air transportation, anything he required was immediately provided...
He first met Jack and Bobby Kennedy in Key West in Sept.1955 at a mansion owned by the famous playright Tennessee Williams. It was a get aquainted session ,but he was very impressed. Jack had been in the senate for three years and already had his eyes on bigger things to come, but he was very struck by the strength and vitality of Bobby.". He seemed to me to be the stronger and more determined of the two"...Huggins had been selected by Joseph Kennedy for special assignments while he was still in the USMC. Many of his missions came directly from the Kennedy family after joining the CIA. He said he "took out 37 people..." during that time as a member of a CIA assassination team. Some of his kills were in the U.S. He made about 150 trips to the Kennedy Compound and the White House during this time, and when Jack became President , and Bobby was assigned Attorney General ,his assigments increased dramatically...
"I was surprised at the depth of Bobby's hatred toward certain people, " he says "He had a special loathing for people like (New Orleans Mafia boss Carlos) Marcello, ( New York underworld kingpin Frank) Costello, and ( Teamster's Union Boss Jimmy ) Hoffa, and a lot of my assignments were directed at this type of individual .I bugged Marcello's headquarters while posing as a real estate speculator in New Orleans. I also infiltrated Hoffa's inner circle in Detroit well enough to get to know him on a personal basis.." He was asked to kill both Hoffa and Marcello but declined both..
Huggins was asked in 1957 by General Paul Harkins, top aide to President Eisenhower ,to join a CIA "assassination team"...specifically to remove .."certain" persons posing problems for the US Goverment at home or abroad..."I agreed partly because the idea appealed to my patriotism, and partly because I was infected with the excitement of what I was doing. It was dangerous, but I liked it. It was a helluva lot better than most of the stuff I had to do as an ordinary marine. In a way ,it was a pretty glamorous life, at least between missions."
His CIA missions were under Tracy Barnes..and many were against the Mafia..
Of the 37 hits he made the majority were outside the country.The very first in Nicaragua in 1958, he joined a guerrilla group and killed a man on the dance floor with a piece of piano wire while many people watched..he was arrested and held for four hours released and rushed out of the country. "Later on, there were other hits in Central and South America, the Caribbean, South East Asia, the Phillipines, Europe. There were a few in this country, but I don't think it would be very wise for me to go into any specifics about those even now ." ....
""Roughly 60% of these missions came after John Kennedy became President ,Huggins says, but most were carried out without JFK's blessings and often without his direct knowledge.""
"Joseph Kennedy nicknamed me "the Chameleon " because of my ability to work both sides of the fence." Huggins recalled " and he ran the show right up until his death. Even after he was unable to speak because of a stroke, Papa Joe relayed his orders to Bobby through his wife
---I used to call her the Queen Bee ---and Bobby would handle it. Anytime Bobby had a problem, whether it was personal or political, he called me."
On November 22nd,1963 he was resting on a beach in Key West,Florida after a mission to Cuba, where he and four other CIA men, shot their way into a Havana Hotel and released an American couple being held by Castro's men...Jack and Libby Livingston who had been working for the Agency in Havana..They had information which could have been extremely damaging to the U.S...Their orders were to get them out safely or to remove them, they managed to free them but 19 people had died in the shoot out.
At approximately 1.45 pm Florida time (12.45 pm Dallas Time) he received an order from Bobby that was most urgent and about the most terrible problem ever..John F.Kennedy had been shot from ambush in downtown Dallas.
""Tell him to get to Dallas, for God's sake," said the unmistakable voice of the Attorney General of the United States as it crackled through the receiver of the "red phone" at Key West's Boca Chica Naval Air Station ."John's been shot, and I need to know exactly what the situation is."
Colonel James R.Conger, commanding officer of Marine Air Group Fourteen of the Second Marine Aircraft Wing, Huggin's unit, relayed the message moments later when Huggins reached the base after hearing of the shooting on the radio.""
Shortly,Marine Sergeant Hugh Huggins had vanished and a CIA Agent in his dark business suit, named Hugh Howell was on a supersonic F4H jet fighter streaking across the Gulf of Mexico..pilot Marine Captain Robert Hannah travelled speeds of up to 1400 mph and received emergency clearance, at Love Field within 50 minutes..to land...after leaving Key West....A Secret Service man was waiting for him in a late Model Mercury..(a military jet landing at Love Field is documented).
He arrived at Parkland, about 2.15pm, where on AF 1, LBJ was preparing to take the oath of office, and Lee Harvey Oswald was being questioned at DPD...the President's body had just been loaded into an ambulance for the trip to Love Field.."I talked brifely to Dr.Charles Crenshaw ,Dr.Malcolm Perry, and two or three other doctors who had been in the emergency room..then I placed a call to the Attorney General's office in Washington."....."Jack never had a chance, Bobby"..I told him.."He took at least one maybe two bullet's in the head. For all practical purposes ,the doctors say he was dead when he got to the hospital.".."I knew he was dead"..Huggins remembers Kennedy saying "I've already talked to Johnson.What I want to know is exactly what happened and why. Get what you can in Dallas right now, then get to Bethesda..That's where the body's being taken, and I want you present at the autopsy."
He was in Dallas about two hours, briefly went to the scene at Dealey Plaza, spoke to the Dallas police and Secret Service also..who were investigating..he was then flown by Captain Hannah and landed at Andrews AF Base just after 6 pm..Washington time....and immediately proceeded on a 15 minute drive to the U.S.Naval Hospital at Bathesda...
"I got there just in time to see two caskets unloaded from two different ambulances ...I definitely saw two caskets, one plain grey and one ornate bronze, and Jack's body was in the plain casket, not the ornate one..The people at Parkland had said the body was in an expensive bronze casket when it left there, but it was in the other casket when it got to Bethesda."..( this is also recalled by Paul K.O'Connor and Jerrol F Custer at Bethesda and supports their statements .)
**
Paul O'Connor Medical Corpsman: Bethesda Hospital:
"After we heard the helicopters come over, I distinctly heard one land at the back of the hospital, which was the Officer's Club parking lot. (snip) I heard another helicopter land at the North side of the hospital where there was a normal helicopter-landing pad. Several minutes later, I can't give you a definite time-- maybe five minutes-- the back of the morgue opened up and a crew of hospital corpsmen and a higher ranking corpsman brought in a plain pinkish-gray, what I call a shiipping casket. They brought it up into the morgue and set it--we had two tables in the morgue--autopsy tables --and they were back to front...(snip)..At that (time) we opened up the coffin. Inside was a body bag."
Jerrol F.Custer: Radiology Technician :Bethesda Hospital:
"They brought him in, in the casket (and) put the casket down and opened it .So we proceeded to remove the body from the casket and place it on the autopsy table."..." There were two different caskets there.One was a regular shipping casket....one was a ceremonial casket ,and we were told the ceremonial casket was for later on for Kennedy's body to be placed in and taken wherever he was to be taken.".( Custer has also told of making X-Rays of the dead President at the time when the bronze casket (containing JFKs body)was supposedly in an ambulance outside.)
Don Rebentisch: 9/1/98 letter to Vince Palamara---"…The casket that was sent to "Bethesda" with the President's body in it was a military style shipping casket "metal", I helped move this casket-"closed" to the morgue.This was before the Navy ambulance arrived at Bethesda with Mrs. Kennedy. I did see Mrs. Kennedy in the rotunda at the hospital when she arrived, well "after" we received the President's body. I did not view the President's body, but my room mate was present during the autopsy and he did tell me of the details of that procedure…"
**
Huggins upon approaching the autopsy room was not allowed to enter until The Secret Service and military guards were assured and it was confirmed that he was Robert F.Kennedy's personal representative at the proceedings."".."After that I wasn't interferred with ...I was allowed to observe the whole procedure, examine the wounds, and remain present for the entire autopsy. I referred all questions to Bobby, who was in a waiting room not far away."..."I know that despite what they may claim, Drs.(James L.) Humes and (J.Thornton) Boswell were never in charge of the autopsy. There were numerous high-ranking military officers there, but Admiral (George G.) Burkley, the President's personal physician, ran the whole show. He told Humes and Boswell exactly what to do and not to do--and being Navy doctors ,they obeyed his orders to the letter.I had seen Burkley a couple of times before, once when he had come to give Jack a cortisone shot for his back problem while I was meeting with Jack. He was very harsh toward the doctors performing the autopsy.".... Huggins theoriizes because he was not a doctor or medical professional ,those that did perform the autopsy would discount his ability to make his own conclusions about the wounds and or to dispute the official findings later on. But he had been in attendance at other autopsies, and because of his above average training in weaponry, he had the knowledge of ballistics and bullet wounds....He states:
"I distinctly saw an entry wound in the left temple. To my knowledge, only two other people besides myself have admitted to seeing the wound. It was assumed to be a blood clot by the doctors at Parkland, but it was an entry wound, and it could not have been fired from the rear."...
"the bullet from this wound exited the right side of the president's head, blowing out a section of the skull and obscuring the entry wound of a second bullet that struck him from the right front almost simultaneously. There were two large separate holes in the upper right side of his head, separated by about three-quarters of an inch of bone matter and skin tissue"..
"The wound in the throat, although greatly enlarged by a tracheostomy, was also an entry wound. All the wounds had a puffy, torn appearance as though they had been probed prior to the autopsy. There was also an entry wound high in the back, between the neck and the shoulder .It had penetrated approximately the depth of one finger joint..I actually put my small finger into the hole ---then, made a forty-five-degree turn to the left. To my knowledge, this bullet never left the body.." . When the autopsy was ended. Huggins felt that it had never been "completed" in a real sense--and the official word was that JFK had been killed by a lone assassin...Huggins felt that four bullets had hit their mark..one from the left, two from the right front and one from the rear and that none of the bullets that hit Gov. John Connally had hit the President..This was multiple assassins...and probably a massive conspiracy , he also felt from what he observed at the autopsy a giant cover up had already begun...
He stated..""He would have suspected that much, even if he had not been well acquainted with Lee Oswald ,and many of the people he was associated with in that shadowy world of the Cuban mercenaries, CIA henchmen, and Mafia in New Orleans""....."I had encountered Oswald a number of times while I was gathering information on Marcello..I had seen him and David Ferrie and Guy Bannister ,both of whom had done various jobs for the CIA. I had also been in Louisiana frequently. And Clay Shaw ( the business man who would be prosecuted as a conspirator by Jim Garrison )..was at every important meeting of the Mafia/CIA types that I ever attended in New Orleans."......
He also mentions the fact that he knew George DeMohrenschildt....who was both a friend of LHO and Jackie Kennedy's parents....It is now known and established that he was a veteran contact agent and that his experience dates back to WW11 ,when he also worked for French Intell...the German Intell...and also the OSS.(U.S.office of Strategic Services ) the CIA's predecessor....Huggins states he also showed up in N.O. from time to time..and that the "Count" was murdered..in 1978, though his death was ruled a suicide..
Huggins returned to Dallas on 11/24/63 the day of the President's funeral...he again talked to some of the doctors and nurses at Parkland.." and I talked to Phyllis Bartlett, the chief telephone operator at the hospital, about the call from LBJ to Parkland ( that Dr.Charles Crenshaw had taken )after LHO's arrival.(.and he was in surgery...after being shot by Ruby)....Bobby suspected that both Johnson and (FBI Director J.Edgar) Hoover were involved in the assassination in some way, and he was very interested in the phone call"..
**
Not only did Phyllis Bartlett confirm Dr.Crenshaw's statement: She confirms Huggins..appearance..
""Bartlett vividly recalls the phone call as described by Dr. Crenshaw. The caller, she says, was a male speaking in a loud voice, and identifying himself as President Johnson. He demanded to speak with someone now present in the operating room with Oswald. Thinking that this was indeed the new President, therefore a call important enough to connect, she immediately rang the operating room and requested one of the surgeons take the call. Until Dr. Crenshaw's story surfaced she had never known which doctor had taken the call. Her reason for never having spoken of the incident was twofold. One, she had not considered the call unusual under the circumstances, and, secondly, because she felt that there was a possibility that the call might be a prank, she had remained on the line for a short period after connecting the call an act which was against hospital policy.
Ms. Bartlett also explains why the line went dead as Dr. Crenshaw describes. She had disconnected the call in an attempt to transfer the call to a newly set-up public relations [office], feeling upon reflection that, that office might be in a better position to handle such a call.
"There very definitely was a phone call from a man with a loud voice, who identified himself as Lyndon Johnson, and he was connected to the operating. room phone during Oswald's surgery.""
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...pa_medical.html
Also:
( During a March 1993 interview, Ms. Bartlett, now living in Irving, Texas...recalled a conversation with a man fitting Hugh Huggins description..she stated " My little office was overflowing with as many as fifty people at once back then. but I do remember talking to a short man with a crewcut (CIA), and I do believe he said his name was Howell.") aka Huggins.
**
Huggins stayed 28 hours in Dallas...on his second visit..he talked to Captain Will Fritz and Chief Jesse Curry of the DPD..and investigators."Within nine days"..he says "I had the basic facts..established to my satisfaction and I reported everything to Bobby in early December"...
"At that time, Bobby showed me a .22-caliber magnum slug and three .308-caliber Mauser rounds that he said were the bullets that were removed from Jack."
**
( Deputy Roger Craig, E.L.Boone, and Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman at first originally Id the rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD as being a Mauser..Roger Craig, whom was then hounded for many years afterwards, until his death... stated that it was stamped with the word "Mauser"
""he was present at when the rifle was found, and along with Deputy Eugene Boone who had first spotted the weapon, was immediately joined by police Lt. Day, Homicide Capt. Fritz, and deputy constable Seymour Weitzman, an expert on weapons who had been in the sporting goods business for many years and was familiar with all domestic and foreign makes. Lt. Day briefly inspected the rifle and handed it to Capt. Fritz who asked if anyone knew what kind of rifle it was. After a close examination, Weitzman declared it to be a 7.65 German Mauser. Capt. Fritz agreed with him.
At the moment when Capt. Fritz concurred with Weitzman's identification of the rifle, an unknown Dallas police officer came running up the stairs and advised Capt. Fritz that a Dallas policeman had been shot in the Oak Cliff area. Craig instinctively looked at his watch. The time was 1:06 p.m. (The Warren Commission attempted to move this time beyond 1:15 to plausibley claim Oswald had reached the Tippit murder scene in a more humanly possible time-frame than would be the case if Tippit had the encounter with his murderer any earlier.) ""
Roger Craig's Book:
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html
or
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_....craig.bio.html
And:...In Defense of Roger Craig
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...sue/rcraig.html
Huggins told Bobby that these bullets could very well have matched the wounds he had seen..RFK kept these bullets and ""other major pieces of evidence in a vault under the tighest possible scutiny."".He has reason to believe today that Ted Kennedy has all in his posseession. He investigated the killing off and on for two more years..aided by his many contacts in the underworld and the intelligence community and travelled many thousands of miles between Dallas, Washington, New Orleans, Miami and other places...
Among his conclusions are: The planning and organization was done by Ferrie (with ties to the CIA) and who would have been Jim Garrison's chief witness had he not coveniently died....and DeMohrenschildt (with ties to CIA) was in Dallas the day of the assassination not Haiti ( Huggins stated " I had to break two of DeMohrenschildt's fingers to get the information I needed, but he finally talked."
Assassin Number 1: Charles Harrelson, a hit man who was experienced and is now serving a life sentence for murdering a federal judge..( One of the tramps who was detained briefly and then released by the DPD..he shot from atop the grassy knoll ,then slipped into the railroad yards..Huggins " I knew Harrelson personally and he was capable of killing anybody"...he carried papers that day Id..John Forrester Gedney.
Assassin Number 2: Frank Sturgis, CIA contact agent. later convicted and sent to prison as one of the burglars in the Watergate break-in...Sturgis fired from a sewer drain in the curb of Elm St..Now living in South Florida.
(See Gregory Burnham's analysis on trajectory of a bullet..
http://www.rense.com/politics4/drain.htm
Also Thomas Wilson's information in TMWKK....
Also for trajectories information re the through and through windshield shot from the South Overpass area: and also for information on the Secret Service handling of the X-100..Lincoln Limousine..
See: Doug Weldon's information and studies....in
"Murder In Dealey Plaza" 2000...
and
"The Great Zapruder Hoax"..2003...)
Assassin Number 3: Charles Rogers ( another tramp) papers Iding him as Harold Doyle, who fired at least one shot from the roof of the Dallas County Records Building..Rogers was known as the "Traveler"..lived in Houston, and went by the alias at times of "Carlos Montoya" ..In 65 he disappeared after being charged with the slaughtering of his parents..His whereabouts are unknown today..(He was one mean so-and-so "..says Huggins..
Book:" Man on the Grassy Knoll": re Charles Rogers.
Assassin Number 4: Was never been identified.(" It wasn't Dallas police officer Roscoe White, as some have claimed." said Huggins," although White did work for the CIA.....It wasn't the third 'tramp' whose name was Chauncey Holt (and who carried papers identifying him as Gus W.Abrahms) although Holt was hired to be there just to confuse matters..And it wasn't, Oswald either...Oswald was one of the poorest marksmen ever to come out of the Marines.He would never have been hired for a hit like this one.")
He reported many discoveries to R.F.K. that have not been reported to the public.He stated that during the "ambush" to kill J.F.K. "Between seven and ten shots were fired by four different assassins... but Lee Harvey Oswald never fired a single round .Two of the shooters were CIA contract agents. Two were actually picked up by the cops and released ,and another one flew out of Dallas untouched...Of the four ,I was personally aquainted with three."....
Late in October 1965, Huggins returned from his last mission, it was a miracle he made it back alive he states..He went into the mountains with eight men and came back with just one , and a slug in his leg from one of his own men...Twenty eight people died and he knew he was suppose to have been one of them he had become expendable..When he recovered he saw Tracy Barnes ,his immediate superior in the CIA..covert operations..and told him "I quit "..He left and returned to his home marine unit at Cherry Point, North Carolina..he was asked to reconsider five times once he says from RFK himself..."Bobby said, you can't quit now the job is not finished"."".but he told him he had made up his mind, he hated to let him down because he knew by that time what his plans were...There was a time after the assassination when RFK seemed to loose his guts but then he had made up his mind that they were not going to get away with it..""...."The only way I can prove who is guilty is with the power of the presidency ." Bobby told him...Huggins thinks that was the reason he wanted to be President, and if he had made it things would have been a lot different..
Huggins received an honourable discharge in January 66, nearly two years before his enlistment was up..from the Marine Corps because of "family hardships"..he says, "They knew I wouldn't talk.They knew that, as afar as I was concerned ,I was still under oath and that I was no threat to the CIA or to US security..That's why they let me go"..When Bobby was assassinated in Los Angeles in 68 ""his nomination for the Democratic Party's presidential candidate appeared to be a virtual certainty"". Huggins almost had a nervous breakdown..
In 1970 near Florence, South Carolina, his windshield was blown out of his car..that he had been driving moments before. He escaped, but moved out of the state shortly afterwards...In 72 he fired two shots outside his home, in Dandridge, Tennessee at an armed intruder, blood was found on the ground along with marks that appeared to have been made by someone being dragged away...it was reported to the Sheriffs office ,but no suspects were found..In 1983 Huggins, applied to the Texas Board of Private Investigators and Security Agencies...for a license ...He became a licensed Private Investigator on Feb.1/84..he was issued with number A-03560-0 after a background check lasting three months...He opened his own private investigating firm, Huggins Investigations Unlimited...
Today because of his ill health he was forced to retire as a PI..he lives quietly with his second wife and five children, he does not leave home often and he avoids all strangers...
""The exploits of Hugh Howell-Huggins "The Chameleon" ,are only a fading memory now. But sometimes at night Jim Huggins finds it hard to sleep, so he sits in a chair, the briefcase containing the 9-millimeter Beretta never far from his hand....He watches for hints of movements in the darkness beyond the windows, and he listens for sounds that he hopes will never come.""
I wonder how many out there .... still sit in the dark...?
From:
"JFK: Breaking The Silence" Bill Sloan
(1993), Chapter 9, pp. 175-189.
*********************************************************
More Information:
An "unidentified CIA agent" who had credentials ( like the FBI man sent by Hoover, how could the CIA agent get to the Dallas hospital so soon after the murder?)..Huggins: Bill Sloan's "Breaking the Silence"..pages 175 to 189......also "The Man Who Knew Too Much" see pages 570-571.........Huggins: also mentioned in"Who's Who in the JFK Assassination" by Michael Benson (1993)..
Phyllis Bartlett :
March 1993 interview of Parkland Hospital Chief telephone operator ("JFK: Breaking The Silence" p. 185)---"…Ms. Bartlett…recalled conversing at the time of the assassination with a man fitting Hugh Howell-Huggins description. "My little office was overflowing with as many as fifty people at once back then," she said, "but I do remember talking to a short man with a crewcut who identified himself in that capacity (CIA) and I do believe he said his name was Howell."..
1:"JFK: The Medical Evidence Reference: Who's Who In The Medical Evidence:
The Principal Witnesses From Nov. 22,1963..
By Vincent Michael Palamara.....at Parkland..
#168) on the list......HUGH HUGGINS..
2: Dr. Gene Coleman Akin, 6/28/84 FBI Memorandum [RIF# 124-10158-10449]---
"...he saw a bullet entrance wound on the President's forehead...Akin
feels that his observation as to the possible entrance wound on the
President's forehead is significant and that he did not mention this item
when he was interviewed in 1963-1964 because he did not want to be killed by
any conspirators."
(H 65 and 67 testimony)
---The back of the right occipital parietal portion of his head was
shattered, with brain substance extruding. I assume the right occipital
parietal region was the exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on
the other side of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the
head, this (the neck wound) must have been an entrance wound..
3: Dr. Robert N. McClelland: WR 526-527/ 17 H 11-12/ CE 392
---"...The cause of death was due to massive head and brain injury from
a gunshot wound of the left temple."
((Dr.R.N. McClelland later changed this to the right temple.))
Brad Parker has learned that the article, "Three Patients at Parkland", while based on the original reports made by the Parkland doctors, incorporated subtle changes which he was told were made by none other than Dr. Marion Jenkins! EXAMPLE--- WR 526-527 / 17 H 11-12 / CE 392: Dr. Robert McClelland's report written 11/22/63---"…a massive gunshot wound of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea…The cause of death was due to massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the left temple.") January 1964 Texas State Journal of Medicine article "Three Patients at Parkland", p. 63---repeats the gist of his 11/22/63 report, but with one change"…a massive gunshot wound of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea…The cause of death was due to massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the ***right side of the head.***" ...
From the ARRB testimony of the Parkland doctors, 8/27/98:
DR. McCLELLAND: . . . Dr. Jenkins, when I came in the room, told me as I walked by to come up to the head of the table and he said, Bob, there's a wound in the left temple there. And so I went to the table and I thought, you know, knowing nothing else about any of the circumstances, that's like that (indicating).
MR. GUNN: Just for the record, you're pointing in with your -
DR. McCLELLAND: Yeah, the left temple -
MR. GUNN: -- finger at the left temple and now the back of the head.
DR. McCLELLAND: -- came out the back. And there was a lot of blood on the left temple. There was blood everywhere, but there was a lot of blood on the left temple, so I didn't question that. And in fact, in something else -- Pepper testified somewhere else, he denied that he said that to me in the Warren Commission. And I told him -- I said Pepper, don't you remember ? No, I never said that, Bob, and I never said the cerebellum fell out. Well, yes, you did, too, but I didn't argue with him.
But the upshot of it is what that led to was Mr. Garrison's case in New Orleans, and he put together a scenario where he thought someone -- because of what I had said about the left temple bullet -- was in the storm sewer on the left side of the car and fired this bullet that killed the President, another gunman. He didn't say that Oswald was not there. He just said there was another gunman. And so he never contact -- Garrison never contacted me until it was essentially time to have the case in court.
DR. PETERS: Clay Shaw.
DR. McCLELLAND: Right. And so I got a call one morning and it was from his office -- one of the people in Garrison's office, and he wanted to know if I would come to New Orleans and testify. And I said, Well, you know, it's odd that none of you had talked to me before this. I've been hearing something about it on television and whatnot. And they said, Well, we assumed that you still believed that the course of the bullet was as you said in your written testimony right after, and I said no. And his voice went up about three octaves and he said, What? And I said no, and I explained to him that I had learned other things about the circumstances at the time and that Jenkins had told me I didn't see any wound here. I was just stating what I had been told and that I wrote that down in my written statement right after the assassination. And so that was -- kind of took the wind out of the sails in that particular prosecution.????????
4:.Dr.Lito Porto: From the same ARRB testimony of the Parkland doctors, 8/27/98:
DR. JONES: . . . The afternoon of the assassination we were up in the OR and Lito Puerto -- I think it's L-i-t-o, Puerto, P-u-e-r-t-o --( Porto) was in the OR -
DR. PETERS: Neurosurgeon..
DR. JONES: -- and he said he was -- that he referred to the President -- because he had been down there and he said, I put my -- he was shot in the leg. I said, he was shot in the left temple. He said, I put my finger in the hole, and I think that was part of --
DR. McCLELLAND: I never heard that. That's news to me.
DR. JONES: And so -- in fact, I told Mr. Haron the other day -- I gave him Lito Puerto's name and his telephone number. I said you know if you're going to have the group down here, why don't you get Puerto down here to clarify that comment, if indeed that were the case or it's not the case.
Dr. Lito Porto:( Puerto) "High Treason”: Livingstone.....“The first doctor to see what he said was a bullet entry wound near the left temple was Dr. Leto (sic) Porto.”(only reference to Dr.Lito Porto) 9/8/98 call from Dr. Boris Porto to Vince Palamara (relaying info. from his father)- His father said that "he needs to keep his mouth quiet" but referred me to Drs. Charlie Baxter and Jim Carrico; Boris: "he was there…he was the neurosurgery chief resident, the first one to come out of that program"---Kemp Clark was "overseeing my father"..
5: Dr. Marion T Jenkins was Professor and Chairman of Anasethetics..
He was at the head of the President monitoring and administering oxygen..
"Dr. JENKINS. I do not know whether this is right or not, but I thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the hairline and right above the zygomatic process.
Mr. SPECTER. The autopsy report disclose no such development, Dr Jenkins.
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was feeling for - I was palpating here for a pulse to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and so I thought there was a wound there also." WC 6H48 .
Parlay off the record , then continues....
"Mr. SPECTER: Aside from that opinion [that one bullet must have traversed the President's pleura], have any of your other opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds been changed in any way?
Dr. JENKINS. No; one other. I asked you a little bit ago if there was a wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the hairline, because there was blood there and I thought there might have been a wound there (indicating).
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left temporal area?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me. This was my only other question about it.
Testimony ( WC 6H51.).
6..Dr. J Thornton Boswell: Bethesda Naval Hospital autopsist:
Describes damage to the left side of JFK's skull and brain ."Best Evidence" David Lifton..Autopsy Fact Sheet (CE 397) discussion chapter 18..
Describes a 10cm area marked on the left of the skull diagram, Boswell says...
"This was a piece of 10 centimetre bone that was fractured off the skull and was attached to the under surface of the skull"..HSCA 7 page 253.
On the front of the autopsy face sheet prepared by Boswell. There is a small dot at left eye labelled "0.4cm" ..CE 397 (WC 17E45)..
The back of the autopsy fact sheet that was prepared by Boswell shows an arrow at the place of entry that points to the front and left..
Sylvia Meagher, "Accessories After The Fact".. 1992 page161..
Boswell's drawing of JFK's skull shows a 3cm rectangle, at the left eye with a ragged edge that is possibley a fracture or missing bone.. CE 397 (WC 17E46).
7: Father Oscar L. Huber: Pastor of Holy Trinity Catholic Church, Dallas..Texas
"states that the President had a terrible wound over his left eye".
Priest Oscar L. Huber (administered the last rites): WR 55, 7 H 489, 21 H 159, 160, 195, 233: WC references for Huber.
Huber was interviewed 11/24/63 on WFAA and 11/25/63 on WBAP/ Texas News (see “Kennedy In Texas” video 1984).
The 11/24/63 “Philadelphia Sunday Bulletin” reported that Father Huber said that JFK had a terrible wound over his left eye (see “Best Evidence” p. 46 and “Who’s Who in the JFK Assassination” p. 202).
8/26/64 and 9/20/64 interviews with William Manchester (“The Death of a President”, numerous, inc. p. 216)---performed the sign of the cross on JFK’s forehead, evidently still intact; interviewed by Jim Bishop (“The Day Kennedy Was Shot”, p. 684)...
"The (Denver) Register", 12/8/63: article by Huber entitled "President Kennedy's Final Hours".... JFK Library Oral History1964... photo of Huber: p. 23 of "JFK: For a New Generation" by Conover Hunt; and
"Four Days In November" (1964, David Wolper): inc. part of his WFAA interview..
The ceremony of the Last Rites included making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the President's forehead using holy oil...Father Huber would have been able to see clearly the facial features..
8: Malcolm Kilduff: Asst. Press Secretary..
"High Treason 2"..Livingstone.... p. 443-450: 4/17/91
..it (the head wound) was clearly in the left side of his
head..I do not accept the so-called "Magic Bullet Theory"..No, I can’t
buy that one..I have been swimming with Connally in the pool at the
White House, and I saw a clean scar in his back…I talked to Connally
about it several times, and his feeling on that and mine are precisely
the same (this squares with what Sam Kinney told me and what Connally
himself insisted on for years)..It was a very short period of time
between the second and third shot..the left part of his forehead looked
like...when I got over to the car...looked like two pounds of ground
beef..the left part of his forehead..They found that piece of skull,over
by the curb, either later that afternoon or the following morning, with
hair on it"..
9: Dr. David Stewart :
At Parkland Memorial when the President and Governor Connally were brought in for emergency treatment. He attended mainly to Governor Connally. When he was interviewed on KNEW television by John Dolan in 1967.
"Dolan said he was particularly concerned with the statement about the shot that killed the President coming from the front'. Stewart said, " Yes, sir. This was the finding of all the physicians who were in attendance. There was a small wound in the left front of the President's head and there was a quite massive wound of exit at the right backside of the head and it was felt by all of the physicians at the time to be a wound of entry which went in the front". ........Harold Weisberg, "Post Mortem", self published, 1975.. p.60 -61
10: Dr. Adolf H.Giesecke, an anaesthetist at JFK's head...at Parkland..
"Dr. GIESECKE. It seemed to me that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand side of the head?
Dr. GIESECKE. I would say the left, but this is just my memory of it."
...Testimony of Dr. Adolf H Giesecke, WC 6H74..
11: Major General Godfrey "God" T. McHugh JFK's Air Force Aid.
Rode in the VIP car with Clifton..see "Best Evidence" David Lifton pages
(399-401, 413-414, 420-421, 430-432)..
McHugh believed the Warren Report was correct...McHugh volunteered
that he had assisted in the photographing of Kennedy’s body.
"I was holding his body several times when they were turning it over and
photographing it.”; Lifton: “And you saw the wounds in the head then too.?
"Oh, yes. but they started fixing it up very well..
You see, again, people keep saying that his face was
demolished and all; he was in absolute perfect shape, except the back of
the head, top back of the head, had an explosive bullet in it and was
badly damaged…and that had blown apart part of his forehead, which was
recuperated and put intact, back in place…so his face was exactly as if
he had been alive. There was nothing wrong with his face"...."The back of
the head was all smashed in…His face was not hurt." Lifton: .."Where did
they get the bone to put the bone back ?"..."It was brought back. They
found it in the car".. "Ninety-nine percent the back, the top back of
the head…that’s the portion that had been badly damaged by the
bullet…The portion that is in the back of the head, when you’re lying
down in the bath tub, you hit the back of the head."...
12: Joseph E.Hagan, Chief Asst. to Joseph H. Gawler, undertaker.
Bethesda..
8/15/91 and 8/28/91 interviews with Livingstone for "High Treason
2.".(see pages 137, 196, and 581; see also “Killing The Truth”, pages
653, 680, 681, and 728)---“I couldn’t remember any bone missing in the
face or from the frontal bone. That was pretty well intact to the best
of my memory.”; there were a lot of pictures taken from the gallery;
“There was extensive damage to the President’s head, most of it back up
in here (indicating with his hand the rearward right side and the
back)…We had to replace just all of that area with plaster of paris due
to the extent of the wounds that were there…If it hadn’t of been that
big, we wouldn’t have had to use plaster of paris, see..Quite a bit of
bone was lacking…we had no problems in here (indicating the area of the
coronal suture)…Back up in here (again gestures back of head), his head
would have been down in the pillow and, if I remember correctly, we had
taken a little out of the pillow where his head would fit down in the
pillow"...
13: Norman Mitchel Similas:
"The New York Times", 11/23/63---"I could see a hole in the President's
left temple and his head and hair were bathed in blood."..
The New York Times of November 23, 1963 (page 5, columns 7 and 8) carried a story entitled "10 Feet from President." This story refers to Norman Similas, 34 years of age, from Willowdale, Toronto, Canada, who was 10 feet from the President when a bullet struck his head. He saw the following:
I could see a hole in the President's left temple and his head and hair were bathed in blood.
14: James P. Altgens,AP Photoographer:
Who took the famous picture of President Kennedy registering his first hit or hits, was on the south side of Elm Street, to the left of the President. He said:
There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. (VII, H- 518)
A Philadelphia Lawyer Analyzes The President's Back *Neck Wounds..
Vincent J. Salandria ..
15: Malcolm Kilduff : JFK's Press Secretary. 1991 interview ..
"Livingstone: As you know, the face was not damaged at all. No witness saw any damage to the head past the midline of the skull, forward of the right ear.
Kilduff: Forward of the right ear? No! Forward of the left ear, they did. I did. The bullet came in on the right side and exited the left side." ..
16: Dr. Robert G. Grossman, Resident Neurosurgeon:
He saw two separate head wounds: a large defect in the parietal area above the right ear, as well as "a large (albeit smaller than the first wound described) separate wound,located squarely in the occiput".
Described a large hole squarely in the occiput, far too large for a bullet entry wound...
Grossman: "It was clear to me…that the right parietal bone had been lifted up by a bulletwhich had exited."..He noticed the skin flap near the right temple. Dr.
Clark picked up the back of the head to demonstrate the wound..
“High Treason”, pages 30, 36, 51, 53, 459 (“The Boston Globe”, June
21, 1981-notes placed in JFK Library.... also "Killing Kennedy", pages
303-304, and "Between The Signal and the Noise" by Roger Bruce Feinman
(1993) and Groden's "TKOAP", p. 181..
See 6 H 81 (Salyer) he confirms Grossman’s presence in Trauma Room One..
*** Information and references also from several of Vincent Michael Palamara's Articles....
************************************************************************
There is much information today, that has been found to have been eventually verified, I try to keep and open mind, as we do not know what there will be.......down the road....
"Today most Americans believe there was a conspiracy to kill President Kennedy, but they don't Know it. They don't want to Know it---and our government doesn't want to Know it and our elected representatives don't want to Know it, because Knowing it would mean having to do something about it. That is an awesome thought !!......Gaeton Fonzi.
"The Last Investigation"..
B..........
-
Any movie film....appreciated...
Thank you for the replies.....
Please, others continue....
B....
-
If you recall the first time you saw movie film of the assassination of
President Kennedy on television, please click here.
http://www.manuscriptservice.com/DarkCorners/
B........
-
Thank you Mr.Rosman for your recent paper......Your research is well appreciated...
If you have not had access previously, you may be interested in the following...
Those in power were well aware that week-end, that there was no SB....
B......
From .."Breach of Trust"
Gerald D.McKnight...2005: University Press of Kansas
( and Harold Weisberg.....).....
"The CIA uncovered critical evidence in the assassination before the government's official version was agreed upon......and before President Johnson appointed the WC.......after the SS turned over a copy of the Zapruder film to the CIA, and the NPIC had completed it's analysis ,it had been discovered that the first shot, according to the film, had come Before Zapruder frame 210.....and a second shot at frame # 242.
Just 1.6 seconds after the first shot....... All the WC experts agreed that even the most experienced and skilled gunman would require at least 2.4 seconds..the 1.6 second shot interlude meant there had to be more than one shooter.."
Page: 151.
"(.McKnight’s telephone interview , May 2,2003...with Dino A.Brugioni, the center’s chief analysis who was in charged of the NPICs interpretation of the Zapruder film..( Conclusion that follows are McKnights..not attributed to Brugioni, "When Brugioni turned over to McCone, or Helms the four-photo briefing boards with accompanying memoranda or explanations interpreting the calculations in the document, he had no knowledge of the "Official Truth"..of JFK's assassination that had been decided upon over the weekend..( notes page 406)..."
See also........Philip Melanson, "Hidden Exposure: Cover Up & Intrigue in the CIA's Secret Possession of the Zapruder Film"..
The Third Decade no.1 ( November 84).9. Melanson makes a strong circumstantial case the NPIC received a copy of the Zapruder Film the day after the assassination"...
Also see CIA document 1641-450 for NPIC's analysis of the Zapruder film..of JFK's assassination .These results were pried loose from the CIA by a FOIA request in 1982 by Harold Weisberg ..or see Wiesberg's "Photographic Whitewash --
Suppressed Kennedy Assassination Pictures"..1967..available at Hood College..pages: 302-303.)
The Warren Report held that the first shot could not have been fired before Z..210..Therefore the analysis and results of the FBI and CIA, of the Zapruder film were ignored....
(B......Therefore the Zapruder film also had to comply with the WC and it's findings..).....
"The FBI and Rankin and staff suppressed the findings of the Bureau's photo interpretation of Zapruder's film. It is not certain whether McCone or Helms ever shared with the Commission the NPIC's analysis of the Zapruder film. What the record does show is that the FBI and CIA colluded in the fabrication of a story that the CIA never received a copy of the Zapruder film..until Dec.1964..
However.....
......After the Commission disbanded Hoover told Rankin that in Dec. 64 the CIA requested a copy of the film for training purposes..pages 151-152.."..
( Hoover to Rankin Dec. 4/64..Copy of letter appears in Wiesberg's , "Photographic Whitewash." page 143..)
B...........
-
Hi Steve:
I wanted to also add my thank you...for all the time and effort,
that you have spent compiling this index..
Appreciated..
B...
-
Hi all,
I have been interested in the #5 man detail of the Moorman photo for a long time. David Lifton describes his discovery of this detail in his book, Best Evidence (though he doesn't call it "#5 man").
Lifton also describes seeing the film Blow Up, directed by Michaelangelo Antonioni, a few years later, and noting the obvious similarities between what its protagonist is doing, and what Lifton himself did in 1965.
Ray Marcus, who worked closely with Lifton on these images and kept at it when Lifton moved on to the work that became Best Evidence, described these things to me in a phone interview about eight years ago.
I thought it might be interesting to juxtapose some of his remarks over a clip from Blow Up. The results can be seen at the URL below. Be forewarned, there's a little self-promotion at the very end.
It lasts a little less than four minutes.
John Kelin
*************
John:
Thanks for the video link.....
Here is what was known as Lifton's # 5 man.....
May be of interest.....
B...
-
Bill: Try this for Your memory........
Bernice, if you look long enough you may find a good color print of Jackie at Love Field and that print will show that she was holding a little bouquet of white flowers. Using poor blurry images has allowed those flowers to be seen as a puppet ... all in the name of alteration. The only thing these kinds of claims and poor images do to help anyone is that possibly if JFK's body was ever brought out of the grave so to examine his head wound ... there would be no need to roll him over to see the back of the head for JFK would have already rolled over in his grave from seeing the things posted on this forum.
****************
.IMO...........I agree Bill, I believe you have made him roll over ,and I have no doubt that he has, by those, who continually attack others for trying to present information and findings,
such as Connie Kritzberg presented for us....and what Jean has given to us......which you ignored.....
.. You deliberately missed the point, and totally ignored what Connie stated in her book, and ignored the
ASK conference findings....you are far from slow, so I am concluding you did so...... deliberately, in order to have another go at Jack, or any others,you feel
like...... what is it with you ????....... Do you take an ugly pill each and every morning??
It is constant, neverending...
Bernice : Quote" Poor clip but interesting....
"Jean Hills, white dog ? Lamb chop.?
Jackie: White Dog ..
http://jfkhistory.com/whitedog.gif
From "Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window"..
1994..Connie Kritzberg..
page.178..
Jean Hill
"A statement made to me by Jean Hill plagued her for years, and
bothered me as well. She said there was a "fluffy white dog" between
the President and Jackie. She was ridiculed by a number of people, she
related , in her story written by Bill Sloan entitled "The Last Dissenting
Witness".
I found the statement somewhat embarassing, and I wished
I had considered omitting it,( Nov.22/63 for her newspaper story, and or
book,I believe..b.m.)
but there was no time for reflection.
Copy boys were relentless in seizing the paragraphs almost before the
paragraph was typed..
Only in 1993 was television news coverage shown which portrayed Jackie
Kennedy accepting a small white "Lambchops" stuffed animal which she
showed to Jack and carried to the limousine with her.
Jean Hill was vindicated, and I was vastly relieved both of us when the
footage was shown to participants at the 1993 ASK symposium held in
Dallas.
Hill had been ill, her father had recently died, and she did not see the
comforting clip.
On what small and relatively insignificant points of fact
reputations rest...."
I guess the problem is, was ,that those in attendance at the 1993 Ask, in Dallas
did not get the information out.......?? Too bad, as Jean is still ridiculed and seeminlgy
corrected , and belittled, on this subject on the web....as well as it being used, to the
demtriment of her entire story..
.....By those who were not there....
The photo, showing Caroline and JFK, with a Lamb Chop puppet, may have been seen by
a woman who then
crocheted or knit one ,and presented it to Jackie..Many women did these type
of crafts back then, they still may ??
Jean mentioned and rightly so, she saw what appeared to her to be a dog..
The comps below are from work done by Jack White some years ago...
B...... ""
************
.....The point is not, if it was a puppet, a dog, a small fluffy bouquet of mums, pompoms whatever, who knows now...??
The point was, and is......... Jean's opinion, not yours, nor anyone else's, this was and is about Jean's and Connie's given information,
not anyone thinkies,
in this regard, pertaining to what She Thought
She Saw, as the Limo approached her.... She saw Jackie showing something to JFK, in those fleeting
seconds, before he was murdered........that she thought to her at that distance, was to her a small fluffy dog....
The point is, that it could have been a bag of marbles for whatever importance it is to the assassination itself..
What it comes down to is, that this is used against Jean and she is called a xxxx about all, and the whatever is used to do so, and you for one are
encouraging them....by what you say, and that plays straight into their hands....If you do not think so, simply go back
and read your comments in this thread..
What is important, and is used, and has been unmercifully so, is that what she thought she saw,
and again she was there and this was Her impression.....It has continually been used to totally ignore and put down,any and all
of Jean's information, pertaining to what she saw pertaining to the assassination......By the old, well if she lied about one fact she lied
about all the rest.....you can't believe anything she said..
And you, it appears to me, help them with your opinions, not on Jean's
documentation...but in arguing about what you think she did not see......and on what you think, Jack has and or does present,
by ignoring what Connie has also informed us of, what ASK saw, in a film, and on the photos
posted and information....etc.........by trying to divert the attention to Jack's awful work IN YOUR Opinion, and the blurry copies of
said photos etc.......this thread is not about what you think....
..I had hoped it would have led to a discussion about what else Jean saw..and her
information, but not a chance in hell....Bill's here...
IMO.......What you are doing and have done again, and so often, is attack the messenger and not concentrate on what has been presented by way of
the documentation that pertains to information....... it is not what you think about what others have presented.....It is about
said documentaion when presented...and it should have been.........It should not be about getting back at Jack nor anyone else, but you continually make it so...
Should you be held responsible, as you seem to go on and on at times about how the alterationists make all such a trial for the consp network..
researchers......for any and all mistakes in the future or in the past, that they have and do make.
I do believe you agree that the backyard photos have been altered,and that frames were deleted within the Zapruder film...... if so, you also believe in alterations, as that is what the word means.........therefore you are one, you can and will
deny such till the cows come home, but there it is none the less.....
Get off peoples back imo.....your continual diatribes and interferrence so often, has been so overdone, to the point that you have become so wearing,
that many are as sick of you as you try to make out that they are of David, or Miles, and others.....you throw around the word xxxxx so often, you have also
now earned that distinction...and stop trying to speak for others.......
You have done good work in the past, get out of the attack mode, and back to the research, and try to help and not continually criticise..and hinder.....and
seemingly obstruct, it is not about you, Bill....
What are you really up to ????...You are far from helping the situation.....
I am gone no use trying to present any documentaion or anything further in this thread....smash it all to hell and back all you want to Bill, as you already have....it is all yours as far as I am concerned, and you win nothing....all you have done is disrupt again one more thread..with your mee maws..all you have shown to me once again, is that I have no idea what exactly you are.....other than a xxxxe disturber...
P.S........When you do finally go back to your research, I do not think you should put anymore shooters up in any more trees.....
B............
-
Thanks, Lee. I have always been convinced that Jean Hill told the truth. As the motorcade
came down Elm, SHE AND MARY BOTH SAW what looked like a little white dog. That the
"dog" is missing in the Z film is STRONG EVIDENCE of fraudulence.
Jack
Jack, your iron clad memory must be failing once again because I believe that Jean Hill said in her book that she never meant to say that she actually saw a dog, but rather that was her impression which is what the reporter wanted from her.
************************************'
Bill: Try this for Your memory........
B...........
Poor clip but interesting....
Jean Hills, white dog ? Lamb chop.?
Jackie: White Dog ..
http://jfkhistory.com/whitedog.gif
From "Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window"..
1994..Connie Kritzberg..
page.178..
Jean Hill
"A statement made to me by Jean Hill plagued her for years, and
bothered me as well. She said there was a "fluffy white dog" between
the President and Jackie. She was ridiculed by a number of people, she
related , in her story written by Bill Sloan entitled "The Last Dissenting
Witness".
I found the statement somewhat embarassing, and I wished
I had considered omitting it,( Nov.22/63 for her newspaper story, and or
book,I believe..b.m.)
but there was no time for reflection.
Copy boys were relentless in seizing the paragraphs almost before the
paragraph was typed..
Only in 1993 was television news coverage shown which portrayed Jackie
Kennedy accepting a small white "Lambchops" stuffed animal which she
showed to Jack and carried to the limousine with her.
Jean Hill was vindicated, and I was vastly relieved both of us when the
footage was shown to participants at the 1993 ASK symposium held in
Dallas.
Hill had been ill, her father had recently died, and she did not see the
comforting clip.
On what small and relatively insignificant points of fact
reputations rest...."
I guess the problem is, was ,that those in attendance at the 1993 Ask, in Dallas
did not get the information out.......?? Too bad, as Jean is still ridiculed and seeminlgy
corrected , and belittled, on this subject on the web....as well as it being used, to the
demtriment of her entire story..
.....By those who were not there....
The photo, showing Caroline and JFK, with a Lamb Chop puppet, may have been seen by
a woman who then
crocheted or knit one ,and presented it to Jackie..Many women did these type
of crafts back then, they still may ??
Jean mentioned and rightly so, she saw what appeared to her to be a dog..
The comps below are from work done by Jack White some years ago...
B......
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Don:
There is so very much truth, within the thoughts in your post.....
Thank you..
B......
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from Mr. Mack:
I'm not playing games, Charles, nor should you. Two major investigations concluded Oswald shot JFK. I am familiar with the evidence they used to reach that conclusion and so are you.
I want to know what the hard evidence is that someone else was firing. As one who is convinced the acoustics findings of two gunmen is correct, I would love to use it...but the acoustics has been called into question. So please answer my question if you can.
Gary
-------------------------------------------
Gary Mack you have an account on this Forum, so you can post your own words! Those two investigations were shameless controlled shams. How can you call them major, except in the drumroll the very same forces behind the coverup and ultimately the killing ran for it to soothe the Public....and you seem to be playing to the same pipers. THERE IS NO REAL EVIDENCE OF OSWALD BEING THE ASSASSIN - LET ALONE LONER - ALL EVIDENCE POINTS TO THE OPPOSITE. Evidence aplenty on more than one gunman [neither Oswald]...wake up...who you trying to kid. Everything has been called into question by someone....but the consensus of responsible and knowledgable students of and researchers in the assassination know there were shots that killed and blew his head open from the front right. Someone shot from behind, as well. Other shots are possible. The accoustic evidence only adds to that, but is not
needed. The autopsy was fudged, the photos hidden and perhaps altered, the holes filled by wax in some a
ter the body was stolen - and it is now clear there were multiple holes showing likely frangable bullets from the front. Too many bullets and from too many directions to let 'on' about to the public. Your 'hard' evidence should real 'official' evidence and is about as 'hard' as the 'hard' evidence in RFK, MKL, 911, and other 'official' history fantasies.
So, you are going to let them get away with their trick - phoney patsy; planted evidence against the patsy; phony sham investigations; assassinations of important witnesses; intimidation of witnesses; cherrypicking of witnesses heard; documents needed not seen or turned over by FBI, CIA etc.; creation out of whole cloth of the magic bullet; proof of all kinds of dishonesty, shenanigans and pressure on the WC and again in HSCA [not to mention who was on and RAN / CONTROLLED them!!!].....shame on your statement implying they are worthy of anything but scorn. Yes, they advanced the case slightly [by accident, and against their very purpose]; their purpose was to put it/us to sleep. Only the private researchers who won't swallow the obvious BS and purposefull confusion & obfuscation that were the 'investigations' have really moved it along - yourself once being one....now seemingly renouncing your own work and all that others have done as well....minimizing it to insignificance under the gigantic shadow of the BIG LIE. Sickening. Democracy is bottom-up; Totalitarianism is top-down. Choose one. What are you fighting for - if anything?! Shocktroop for the WC?...that'll be top-down, and in the USA will be Corporate Fascism, well on it's way.....
There has never been a real investigation and the murder trail and Dallas investigation that should have happened was stopped - on purpose - so the controlled non-investigations could be done by the controlled political FBI, CIA, WC, HSCA et al.
Shame on those who buy the WC BS...or sell it at this well past sell-by date!
Peter:
Gary doesn't mind if there were, or from where other shots might have come from, as long as he has Lee in the "sniper's nest" .
Providing the Sixth Floor Museum with its reason for being and justification for his job..
B.........
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Well that is MOST disappointing about Keith. He can tell the truth about W on tv but lie about the assassination. Out of fairness however I am willing to bet that he is not permitted to go there. The media is totally controlled on this issue. Whatever personal beliefs a commentator may hold must remain private if he wants to continue on the air.
Dawn
Have you watched Hannity and Colmes? Hannity hand-picked Alan as his liberal partner. You can see how puny he is. When 9/11 comes up, Alan starts off by saying, we all know our govt has nothing to do with 9/11. The only one I believe on that station is Greta Von Susteren. Geraldo has come out several times with "Oswald killed Kennedy." I guess everyone has a price.
Kathy
I know how to stop the gossip and dirt, name calling found on this thread.... I'll just post on this thread AND THAT WILL ABOUT DO IT.
*****************
Now William......
That was a good one....
..and as we all know, none of this will change anyones mind..so.....??What it comes down to.......is.....
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Jack White -- I was reading the Gary Mack-Olberman thread and you said you didn't want to buy a book Mack is selling, particularly Brothers by David Talbot. Let me tell you it's well worth it. The book shows how alone Kennedy was in his administration because his Military Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted to bomb Cuba and then invade it. Had they done this, we'd all be dead.
I remember there was a thread here about Brothers, but I doubt I'll ever find it with the lousy search engine. Terry Mauro sent me a copy of the book for which I'm eternally grateful. Brothers shows you what John Kennedy was up against as President. How he had to deal with Curtis LeMay and his other Military Chiefs who hated him. The part about the Cuban Missile Crisis is spellbinding and shocking, to such a degree I believe LeMay was behind the assassination. I think the military ordered it and planned it in minute detail. Kennedy had no friends in his administration. LeMay wanted to bomb Cuba and invade it. Kennedy said the Russians would strike back and then that's the end of the world.
Kennedy also feared that the Military Chiefs would strike Cuba without his knowledge. He had big enemies -- the Military-Industrial Complex, Big Business (US Steel, Bell Helicopter), the richest families ever, especially from Texas, the Cuban Exiles, the CIA and the Mafia.
The book is quite an eye-opener.
Kathy
Kathy...you have misquoted me regarding the Talbot book. What I said was that if the Sixth
Floor museum store sells it, IT HAS BEEN APPROVED BY THE "ESTABLISHMENT". That is, they
only sell NON-CONTROVERSIAL NON-CONSPIRACY BOOKS. I did not say it was not a good book.
Please quote me correctly. I would not condemn a book I have never seen.
Jack
Kathy, NOW you know that the above is not true. If you think Brothers is a conspiracy book (and I do) then, see, they DO sell conspiracy books at the 6th Floor Museum Bookstore!!!
Hi Kathy:
Well apparently, perhaps Gary does not consider "Brothers" to be a conspiracy book......
He has never referred that they sell, such as Weisberg's, which have been reprinted and are available, nor any of Penn Jones, nor Prouty,
Dr.J.Fetzer's, has he Meager's I forget...as well as others....But has recommended such a Posner's, that has been sold there for some years..
which is the sorriest book ever written on the assassination, with all it's lies, no other word to call them..
Gary has told me and another, in an email a few years back, that he reads the books and then recommends them to the books store, or not..
There have been many in that not pile...and before I am asked yes I do have the email.....
So what it comes down to is what Gary recommends and thinks about a book...
B....
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JFK Lancer Productions & Publications
JFK Lancer Productions & Publications Announcement
Radio Show on Dallas DA Ruby Docs Release
Gary Mack's response to our email:
Please fix this erroneous statement on your website:
"Features David Kaiser, author of "The Road to Dallas", and Max Holland, author of the "Kennedy Assassination Tapes". Heads Up: All guests believe Lee Oswald acted alone."
David believes there was a conspiracy, though I don't know his details. And I'm on the show, too, and my personal support of the HSCA acoustics evidence of two gunmen has never wavered.
My response:
Gary,
...I thought from your recent statements on the news that you considered LHO to be the lone gunman although previously you have supported the acoustic evidence. Kaiser has not made a statement that I am aware of that he believes in more than one shooter.
Best,
Debra (Conway)
Is everyone as surprised as I am to read this? I was under the impression that Gary Mack was an early believer in "Badgeman" as a shooter, but later changed his mind. Are we guilty of a hasty rush to judgment where Mr. Mack is concerned?
Terry
Terry.....
You should have posted the all of it.....
B.....
Debra
---
Perhaps I should have been more clear in my posting above. I did fail to list Gary Mack as a guest on the program due only to my haste in updating this email list on the documents being available on line. Most recently, Mack was on the Keith Oberman show where he made this statement:
"Virtually all the hard evidence leads to Lee Harvey Oswald."
Perhaps. Mack and I will have to disagree over what is "hard" evidence.
Regarding David Kaiser, I should have been more clear that while he believes in a conspirary to kill President Kennedy, he states his belief that Lee Oswald acted alone in shooting JFK.
From Amazon Reviews:
Library Journal (starred review) : A scrupulously researched account, which may be one of the best books yet on the assassination...Kaiser posits that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman although he did not act alone: the murder plot was hatched by Mafia bosses Santo Trafficante, John Roselli, and Sam Giancana as revenge for Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy's relentless pursuit of the mob and for the vast sums of money they lost when Castro closed Cuba's mob-controlled casinos. Other startling revelations are that Oswald might have been a CIA agent, even though he was promised a large sum of money by the mob to kill Kennedy, and that Jack Ruby killed Oswald on orders from the Mafia, to which Ruby was connected. This detailed, often chilling account stands out among the overwhelming number of assassination books.
--Karl Helicher
I leave our readers with one of my favorite quotes:
"We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle. No one has been able to put him in that building with a gun in his hand." --Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, quoted by United Press International, November 5, 1969."
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Perhaps these would be of help.......
One very large Altgens, one smaller lightened, and two Towners, taken at the corner of Elm..
one lightened.....
FWTAW....
B.....
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William: ""On another note. I asked about photos of the south plaza, an area I am very much interested in, and I was told there were pictures of the south knoll taken at the time of the shooting. Who took those pictures I do not know, but I was told that Life Magazine had one of them after they bought it from one of the people who took it... Perhaps Peter Lemkin can fill in at this point. I think he knows how this photo came into being. This particular photo also can be found in Gary Shaw and Harris's book "Conspiracy", published in 1976. ""
Within "Cover-Up " Shaw, Harris, 1976...same book you refer to, but the title is Cover-Up.....the photos were taken by Jim Murray...
He ran over to that side, and took the two below.......From the south side, approximately ten minutes after the assassination, the photo
you refer to is on page 126, ..none appear
within the book, of the south side during the assassination..
There are none that we have of the south side, during the assassination, other than the Zapruder.....???..
The two appear below ....the top one below,not showing the transport truck, is the one printed within said book...
FWTW......
B.......
Thanks Bernice; Your photos are taken from the south knoll looking north, sometime after the shooting. The photo I mentioned is taken from the north side ( north knoll) looking south and was taken by Cancellara just a few seconds after the fatal shot.
There was another book by Gary Shaw and Harris published in 1976, title "Conspiracy". and it has the Cancellara (?) photo taken from the north knoll facing toward the south knoll about ten seconds after the shots were fired. (that photo has been posted on the forum many times. Perhaps some can repost that picture, uncroped.
I'll get the IBN and the address of the publisher. I have copy #648 of the first publishing of 3000 copies. When I get back to my office I will updated this post for you with that information. Shaws book was the first publishing of the 'South Knoll" picture which ??shows where Sergio and I were standing. And too, that was the first time I saw the Cancellar photo and I pointed out to Shaw and Bernard Finsterwald Jr., at the time of our meeting in Denver Colorado (1980-81) where we were standing at the time of the shots. Again Thanks for the postings of the other pictures and information. Hang in there...
BERNICE:
You were right on the name of the book being "Cover UP; The Governmenttal Conspiracy To Conceal The Facts About The Public Execution Of John Kennedy". by J. Gary Shaw with Larry R. Harris". It was produced, published and copyrighted by J. Gary Shaw in 1976. P.O. Box722, 105 Poindexter Dr, Cleburne, Texas 76031. (self published)
"... There are none (pictures) that we have of the south side, during the assassination, other than the Zapruder.....???..
..".The picture I made reference to is found on page 126 (top picture) above the Tyler picture on same page. The following page 127 is a full page overhead view of the Plaza. The picture on page 126 was taken by Cancellara on the north side faceing south toward the south knoll. It shows the 'forked tree' that some have said are legs but are really the shadow of the fork tree. We were in the shadow of the fork tree at the time of the shooting. I think page 155 shows Cancellara takeing the south knoll picture.
********
Hi Wiliam.
Yes the Murray's as stated were taken approx.10 minutes after.....
I just came back, to let you know, after digging out the book, that the second photo, Murray's with the Transport truck is also within ,on page 146......
The Cancellare you mention is there on page 126...above the first Murray............it is a poor copy photo as all are within, but the best they could do at the
time, too bad they did not use, a much better paper....but .......it is there....but it is
also cropped....according to full one I have......
..Which..I have posted here in the past .....for you, so you probably have it.....
Yes. I believe it to be Cancellare seen on page 155...taking the photo......that is a Rickerby photo....the one in Cover-Up is also blown and cropped.......
You will see the differences...................the first of both are cropped, as seen in Cover-Up, the second, the full as I have them.....
The Cancellare's and the Rickerby's......
Tosh when I get to it, I shall scan the Cancellare for you from Cover-Up, it is cropped as I have shown but it does not have the light, streak on the
left......then you can see it for yourself........
B.........
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William: ""On another note. I asked about photos of the south plaza, an area I am very much interested in, and I was told there were pictures of the south knoll taken at the time of the shooting. Who took those pictures I do not know, but I was told that Life Magazine had one of them after they bought it from one of the people who took it... Perhaps Peter Lemkin can fill in at this point. I think he knows how this photo came into being. This particular photo also can be found in Gary Shaw and Harris's book "Conspiracy", published in 1976. ""
Within "Cover-Up " Shaw, Harris, 1976...same book you refer to, but the title is Cover-Up.....the photos were taken by Jim Murray...
He ran over to that side, and took the two below.......From the south side, approximately ten minutes after the assassination, the photo
you refer to is on page 126, ..none appear
within the book, of the south side during the assassination..
There are none that we have of the south side, during the assassination, other than the Zapruder.....???..
The two appear below ....the top one below,not showing the transport truck, is the one printed within said book...
FWTW......
B.......
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Bernice,The full transcript, and Jarangin's letter to Hoover, is reprinted on
pages
124 - 126 in Michael Benson's "Encyclopedia Of The JFK Assassination."
B.........
You can also read Jarnagin's letter to Hoover and an 8 page statement from him in CD 86 beginning on page 559 here:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=335594
Steve Thomas
*************************
Thanks Steve:
Here is just the first page.....
B........
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Charles,
You and I are in complete agreement about the conspirators' shoddy "coverup" on all levels. I think you're exactly right about the amateurish splice in the Zapruder film. That garnered the attention of critics early on, and was bound to lead to more detalied analysis of the entire film.
The more I study this case, the more I am in total accord with Vincent Salandria. I think those who killed JFK constructed a ridiculous case against Oswald that was about as believable as the Tooth Fairy. I've said this before, but to cite just one example; why plant a pristine bullet, when your objective is to make people think it caused seven wounds? Salandria was right; they wanted us to know what they did, and are probably still relishing the attention and all the debates.
****************
Pat:
You are so subtle with your suppositions.......Till next time...........
^^^^^^^^^^^
Jack :
Suppositions, never do make any sense........
*************
Don:
Imo ........of course they wanted us to know.....in many cases that is the why
they were and have been so obvious.....and still are......
B.......
Below appears to be researchers.....
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Bill:
They do appear to be the Jarnagin conversation.....transcript..
See downloads on the right of article.....
http://www.star-telegram.com/dallas_news/story/481021.html
The full transcript, and Jarangin's letter to Hoover, is reprinted on
pages
124 - 126 in Michael Benson's "Encyclopedia Of The JFK Assassination."
B.........
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"Virtually all the hard evidence leads to Lee Harvey Oswald."
Thus Gary Mack gives away his game.
Mr. Mack spoke those words, as I type this, some three minutes ago, at the end of the Monday, February 18 edition of "Countdown" on MSNBC.
Once more for emphasis:
"Virtually all the hard evidence leads to Lee Harvey Oswald." -- Gary Mack
Contrast this with the truth:
No hard evidence whatsoever leads to Lee Harvey Oswald as the assassin -- lone or otherwise -- of John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
I reiterate: Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in the JFK case who does not conclude conspiracy is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.
Without any room for equvication, Mr. Mack's access to said evidence is reasonable in the extreme.
Let there be no doubt, from this day and time, about whose side Mr. Mack is on.
*****************
Thank you Charles,
and what exactly does that make his gofers.....
Cliff also........Cheers.......
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D.A Craig Watkins....Dallas interview......re documents released from safe , and racial bias....in the 60's.....
http://cbs11tv.com/local/jfk.assassination...k.2.656767.html
on the right.........
He states that they will not be released to the 6th Floor Museum, they are being approached by several.....
They must go somewhere , where all will be accessible to the public.......
He does not know what the documents mean in relation to the assassination......90 to 99% of what the boxes
contain, are to do with the assn.......thousands of pages......
They have been cataloguing them for the past year
they are almost complete.....There is a 1967 movie contract for a million dollars in Henry Wades name, but the movie
was never made..The transcript appears to be from a movie script, I beleieve he said it was two pages.......
......Every Dallas D.A.......has known about the safe since 1963, yet chose to kept them hidden...
The documents will be ready for release this coming Monday.......
The video has now been archived......... http://cbs11tv.com/video/?cid=7
B............
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Pat :"Thanks, Bernice. As stated in an earlier post, I looked into this awhile back and concluded that the DPD made up some sort of cover story that Chaney heroically raced up to the limo and then to Curry. Hargis pulled over just after the shots. He could not have possibly witnessed Chaney pulling up next to Curry on the on-ramp. He was therefore either repeating a story someone else told him, deliberately lying to protect Chaney, or telling the truth--in such case the photographic evidence has been faked. With Hargis, I vote option 1. In some of the others, option 2.
We're all grown-ups here. We know that cops lie to protect each other all the time, and take PRIDE in it.
As far as Ellis, he's not exactly reliable."
http://educationforum.iphost.com/index.php...st&p=137451
We're all grown-ups here..
thanks for the chuckle... Pat........This info, Chaney.....is not new, and some have kept it on hand, though off and on, a niggle more or less, since reading Penn Jones "Forgive My Grief " 3..and Meaghers "Accessories After the Fact" off and on over the past many years......It just takes some information to be put together, gathered and awaiting such as the researchers that have done so at present....
Your conclusions, and theories, are your opinions, and to each their own....
As far as Stavis Ellis is concerned, I would suggest you contact Doug Weldon, perhaps he can set you straight, may be worth the effort....
Pat :" Hargis pulled over just after the shots. He could not have possibly witnessed Chaney pulling up next to Curry on the on-ramp. "
????? Where does Hargis say what you have posted?? He does not say he saw Chaney pull up next to Curry on the ramp..?
He states
"Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole....... "
Hargis.......
Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"
Mr. STERN - Someone inside--
Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.......
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/hscaharg.htm
http://educationforum.iphost.com/index.php...st&p=137449
You will notice also perhaps, that Hargis states..." and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off "......after Chaney had taken off.....
So did James Simmons....make reference to such.....
James L Simmons RR man on the overpass ..Re his testimony at the Clay Shaw trial..Garrison.
Upon being questioned by the defense ........
Asst D.A Alvin Osner asked : Did the car ( limo) speed up ?
Simmons : No, in fact the car stopped or almost stopped.
Osner : Then did the car speed up ?
Simmons: Yes, after they got the motorcycle policeman out of the way...
It went right over the Asst.D.As.... head it went no further....
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/simmons_j.htm
GWIW....
B..........
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Here is the rest of the information that Bobby Hargis related and to the assistant council of the W/C mind you.....
Samuel A.Stern.....
Hargis.......
Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"
Mr. STERN - Someone inside--
Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.......
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/hscaharg.htm
As far as the Zapruder film is concerned well.....apparently SSA Roy Kellerman also saw the film that has so long ago disappeared, and has not been accessible
to all....that shows their turn from Houston onto Elm St......and he also stated this to "Darlin" Arlen Specter of the W/C.......
Scroll way down.....
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have described to us that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself you may come up with a little different answer.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I have; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there something special in your viewing of the films which led you to believe that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No: it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Which films are you referring to?
Mr. KELLERMAN. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right side.
Mr. SPECTER. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. You are not familiar with the photographer?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am not.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the right-hand side of the automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas School Book Depository Building was?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end?
Mr. KELLERMAN. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street onto Elm.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did they end?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct.
Mr. SPECTER. Were those black and white or in color?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were colored.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't--I saw a black-and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there to--
Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for the introduction in evidence of Exhibit 351.
Representative FORD. It is approved.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/kellerma.htm
B........
I am sure Wim will be coming along..... 
..".
New JFK Website
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
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Bill : No need for an apology......but accepted with gratitude, as one is so seldom seen.....
The messenger I referred to being Sloan, whose information for those few pages of his book came from Huggins.....He related what was given to him, I did not see that as being snowed, or such..I felt he was trying as so many have, to get the information out there......and as far as all of the Huggins information given ,well who knows....?
Though he was mentioned in two others books....and a Parkland witness recalled a man of his discription, being there......he appears to be real, ...If anyone gets anything out of what I compile, that is fine with me and if not, then not...We cannot read peoples minds..nor know their interests, nor reasoning very often..
Myself I wondered about some aspects of Huggins, re the Kennedy information, but did compile it from what had been provided......Then again, as we have seen so often over time, some witnesses did, lets call it, upgrade on their first given information ,also with reasons given for such ,later on.......and some continue to do so..........It happens....
.......People are people, and only they themselves can control, the need of self importance as it is called at times....if it is, that is ?...
The rest of us, take whatever, and try to connect it, to some of the dots, and what info he did relate seemed to, along with some areas which I had found previously...We take it or leave in otherwards...
I have wondered just how much, that ole Joe was involved in, that no one will ever know about...?? but just a thought....and that train goes nowhere..
Thank you for the reply.....
B.....