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Everything posted by Larry Hancock
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And of course Connie was my author (well actually I was her researcher, she writes far better than I ever could) in our docufiction November Patriots and later after she had researched exactly how and when her original draft for the story changed, we wrote it up for the third edition of SWHT....she was always a wonderful source of information about that era in Dallas as well as the various people she knew in the news media there.
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I think we get lost in the fact that with multiple people and agendas in play around Oswald during 1963, a time slice of everything that was happening in a given month, if not a given week, has the effect of just creating seemingly random noise. Multiple actors, activities, agendas, all occurring in a given week or month....at this point I've come to accept that it won't make sense in a linear view - and absolutely nothing was precluded, even after his arrival in Dallas. Its like taking out several puzzles at the same time, intermixing the pieces, and expecting them to somehow all fit in one grand picture.
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David, I'm pretty much of the impression that there was a propaganda program in place to build an incresingly "radical" image for Oswald.....linking that to signatures related to JFK's conservation tour (Oswald in Wisconsin in a restaurant guest list), Oswald at an Oak Ridge visitor center (or was that related to a trail to the East Coast for something planned there). Bits and pieces with Oak Ridge the wildest of the bunch (I can say I have a document about a scam that David Phillips ran against the Russians in Mexico City involving uranium..and got a black mark for doing). With Phillips one can never tells, sometimes he just appeared to throw stuff around to see if it would stick.
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Paul, in that regard I would have to refer you to Newman's work in finding a very early document out of CIA a domestic office in California that refers to the use of the crypt. I think he makes a pretty good case that it was used multiple times; certainly it was used in Europe as well. I would defer to his research on that - you should definitely take a look at it. I've not followed it beyond that point.
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My current view is that the Oswald segment was certainly hijacked, overlaid on CI and propaganda operations that started with the DRE and escalated with JMWAVE SAS personnel. That is what is being covered up in withholding the Case Officer files. Along side that I think several people, including Ruby, were brought in with the story of a false flag operation and were shocked by what really happened...and knew how much at risk they suddenly were. Basically the idea of a false flag attack was a type of cover in and of itself for the plotters. More to come on a possible scenario for the Oswald frame in the upcoming Red Bird leads monograph.
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I'll try to respond to both Ray and Benjamin in one post. Yes Ray, Ed Martino thought it was extremely strange and certainly had never happened before. Afterwards he had two thoughts, first off his Dad had made a couple of remarks beforehand that might have gotten undue attention if Ed had been at school, heard the news and made some unthinking remark about his Dad talking about that just yesterday....who knows, but if a classmate repeated that and for some reason it got to the FBI I suspect it would have been uncomfortable at best. The second thought was that his Dad was already a little conflicted - and became much more so in later years, feeling he and some of his friends had been "used" to some extent, promised things that did not happen. Sitting around watching TV for the news out of Texas might have been both tense, stressful and ....beats me. I tend to think he realized he had said some things, even little things, that he didn't want repeated outside the house that day. Benjamin, certainly that is a good take on the wording, by itself its simply suggestive, combined with having Ed stay home and the things that John apparently said to his wife its probably more. However I would never have taken something this limited to corroborate Martino's remarks to his friends and their contacts with the HSCA. The rest is in SWHT, this was just the best I could give you outside the book. The Morales connections are much more extensive, and indicative of Martino having a role, not to mention his links to Ruby's associates via the Havana casino connections. "One still has to explain the CIA biography build of LHO, and what LHO was doing in the TSBD. That is not something Morales could pull off. And as I have said, to make LHO the patsy you have to make sure he is not down on the street waving hello at JFK." I attempt to address this in Tipping Point, by detailing the ways in which both the DRE and the CIA were using Oswald beginning in August. However a much more specific take on that is upcoming in the Red Bird leads study from David and myself. It offers a very precise scenario for who was creating an image for Oswald, who was in direct contact with him from New Orleans though Houston and on to Dallas and what was anticipated as the final step in controlling him on November 22 and setting an absolute Castro frame. Neither David nor I will be able to swear that is what really happened but its a pretty tight scenario with names and dates to extent what is in Tipping Point.
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Benjamin, over the years we have been unable to cope with Amazon's rules about the Kindle version so even if one person objected to its quality they would take it down, we might get it back up with a new version then the same thing would happen again....sorry, its been frustrating to say the least. While I can't offer you the details and substantiation that is in the book about Martino's connections to Morales (which went on after the assassination) or some of the other points that are in the book, I can offer you this synopsis of what his son saw - which took some years to get him to put on paper, saying it was all uncomfortable for him would be an understatement. Perhaps it will help some: http://www.larry-hancock.com/documents/chapter 01/Events59-63.pdf
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Hi Paul, I tried to develop the actual impetus plus the motives in much more detail than previously in Tipping Point, the fundamental, immediate motive was to kill JFK before he began what was most likely to have been a quick and successful negotiation (at Castro's request) with Castro to oust the Russians and take Cuba neutral while restoring relations, especially economic relations with the United States. I cite multiple State Dept personnel involved in the outreach who reached that conclusion after the assassination. Castro was so upset with the Russians and so committed to a restoration of economic relations that he offered the same deal to Johnson. So, would an attempted assassination have done it, turned JFK quickly and aggressively against Castro...perhaps so if the frame was solid enough to convince JFK after what would have obviously been a very in depth investigation... but that would have required an iron clad frame pointing not just to a crazed Castro sympathizer but to Castro or his agents directly. The risk of JFK being alive and not easily fooled would have been huge. So, quickly sabotaging the pending negotiations - which would likely have left the exiles in exile - was the impetus, and at one level the motive for the senior plotters, but for those directly involved it was fundamentally revenge over yet one more betrayal. Those people considered JFK a traitor and wanted him dead, policy and strategy were not the driving motives for them. Thinking about it I should add one more point, this is not me coming up with a hypothesis on the aims or motives (or plan for that matter), what I've tried to do is consolidate the remarks from people that were involved or heard from them about the attack - so as far as to replicating their thought process or what was necessary and what not, that would be just speculation on my part. I've tried to capture and describe motive, impetus and what happened from the sources I ultimately found credible - and consistent - and explore in detail, that's the closest I can get.
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Benjamin, I'd have to refer you all the way back to SWHT talked for a detailed exposition on Martino, and why I take him seriously....including not only the two initially anonymous reports submitted to the HSCA by his close friends but alswo based on my own extensive inquiries with his son (you will find his story and observations on my web site). That plus his key role instigating and actually participating in the TILT / Pawley mission into Cuba which was under the operational oversight of Robertson and Morales. As to his coming forward, he certainly did not and never expected what little he did say to become public, nor did his wife or his family who had both kept certain of his actions suggesting foreknowledge even from the HSCA - until after his wife's death. What I can say is that for me his credibility was enhanced by the fact that never even in private did he overplay his own role, which he described strictly as a courier, having only been given some very general remarks in regard to Oswald being a patsy and not an active participant. What I have resolved for myself is that the only contact he had within the CIA was David Morales, and that went as far back as his time in Cuba. Otherwise he was angry with basically everyone he felt had abandoned him in Cuba, especially the American embassy staff there. In that regard we have extended insights into his own extreme anti-Castro views in both his book and his record. As to his post-assassination efforts to blame a conspiracy on Castro, those were entirely in sync with what the DRE was doing as well as some of his associates such as Sturgis - basically all trying to put into play what had been in the plan to point towards Castro but which fell apart with Oswald's arrest. But all that is superficial, just a part of what I go into in SWHT and really only refer to in Tipping Point.
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In regard to Prouty as a source, I've always maintained that the information he provided based on first hand knowledge of government activities is very useful, I learned a good deal from the book which covers his descriptions of the logistics network and practices used to provide American military equipment and weapons for covert operations and used that in Shadow Warfare. Prouty also provided some descriptive context on how Joint Chiefs staff and SACSA worked that can be verified in other sources so that was good. It is also possible to document some of his own work in those roles...and as I described in my post, that work was at least sometimes not that much appreciated by CIA personnel in covert operations, specifically in the Cuba project. But other than anecdotes and speculation, I'm not sure what useful details he does provide us on Lansdale and the JFK conspiracy. Lansdale's career is pretty well documented - as is his personality. And Prouty's apparent tendency to exaggerate at least a bit is suggested by the details in his interview with the ARRB, where is most definitely does recant on certain of his JFK related statements - that makes he hesitant to take all of his personal comments literally. But the point is, over the last several decades there has been ample time for Prouty himself or others - including Garrison - to try and follow up on the specifics that Prouty offered and I just don't see that. I'm not saying that's easy, I'm saying that nobody seems to have tackled it and we don't have a body of work extending it so we are left with mystery and speculation - while other leads have been worked in extensive detail. We have names and groups and sources from other people that have and those I can evaluate and offer an opinion on (positively or negatively) because work has been done. I just don't see that work being done on his hypothesis so either it has and I missed it or somebody should do it if they really feel the hypothesis has merit.
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First off, in regard to an operational use of Oswald I present a "scenario" for that in Tipping Point -- in that scenario I propose that he was already being operationally used in at least two and very possibly three ways by CIA officers in SAS and at JMWAVE beginning by August. Those have nothing to do with any earlier use by ONI, CIA or FBI. The reason he could be used in multiple ways at the same time is because he already had a public image created during the summer in New Orleans and that was sufficient for the propaganda operation which began at that time using both the DRE as an outlet and beginning an expansion of that using various aggressive anti-Castro right wing outlets such as INCA and others that I name in the book. You can even trace that via their news letters and the "Oswald recording/record" that was created for that purpose. Beyond propaganda SAS was integrating his identity into a counter intelligence operation targeting Cuban embassy staff both in Mexico City and New Orleans and we can come up with the names involved in that as well. The operations themselves have been documented for some time, with probably the most detailed exposition by Bill Simpich. Following that It was easy enough for certain CIA officers and DRE military wing people to use Oswald's legend and identity in an action that was intended to trigger action against the Castro regime....the attack in Dallas. We could actually call that a "false flag" operation that worked right up to the point that Oswald was taken into custody....just as Martino described. And some of the likely people involved in trying to make that false flag happen were indeed in Dallas....the details for that scenario will be offered relatively soon in the Red Bird leads paper David Boylan and I are wrapping up now.
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I suppose I should be clear as to my view since it was mentioned above. At this point in time all I've really seen that would describe the Lansdale view of a conspiracy and the attack in Dallas is Lansdale's letter to Garrison. I've not seen any researcher do a detailed paper or book exploring that hypothesis, citing sources, naming specific people and dates and relating in detail about how it all translated to the attack in Dallas and what followed. When I see that I would be able to evaluate it and probably offer an opinion. As it stands his letter simply is not sufficient basis for me to even have an opinion - even though I spent an extended period of time years ago on Lansdale and found nothing "operational" myself. Which just means I didn't find it so I would say those who accept his hypothesis should have been working for years now to flesh it out with details and publish that research in some form. I've also seen the premise that Lansdale was running a false flag operation - so that would mean he was a good guy who got had, not a bad conspirator? The thing is I have seen no detail on that either, so somebody needs to do some homework there and write up something that can be evaluated. From my own perspective I can't see who would turn to Lansdale to run that sort of thing in the fall of 1963. Who would trust his skills, where would he get the contacts, who was actually involved in the false flag operation, what is its chronology. Basically I've reached the point where I expect that tossing out a few names and floating a scenario needs to be followed up by some real research - which raises the question of why Lansdale himself didn't do that since he claimed to have some starting point facts? Obviously I have my own hypothesis on the conspiracy and participants, and at this point have "operationalized" it in considerable detail in Tipping Point - with sources, motive, means, people, movements, roles etc. To reach an opinion on the Lansdale hypothesis I need to see comparable body of work - as I hope to see in the Newman hypothesis, the Alberelli hypothesis etc. For context though, for those who would like some counterpoint to Prouty's views about Diem and the American entry into Viet Nam, I would recommend some more contemporary works: Cold War Mandarin by Seth Jacops is exceptional as is Michael Swanson's Why The Vietnam War.
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Well said Gil, I enjoyed your post on Greg's forum and more importantly on the whole idea of trying to draw everything we don't understand into a conspiracy. I've become really annoyed at accusing people of killing the President simply because of presumed motive - like the Dulles thread on the forum now.
I've stopped reading most posts because they are of that nature, more in the way of "world views" than investigation.
And the more I try to get detailed, as I did in Tipping Point, the move people seem to want to back off and not engage in that but continue with the same grand plots and suspects we have had for decades.
While I do think that certain aspects of Tippet's behavior are strange or even suspicious, I don't think that is what got him killed and I really like the track you are own - bad things do happen and if he stopped the wrong guy his luck might just have been bad. Your view makes a whole lot more sense of the remark about seeing someone in the neighborhood all the time in regard to the shooter, not Tippet.
Its interesting that Martino said that the second half of the whole plan got blown away because Tippet got shot and Oswald got taken into custody alive, he didn't say Oswald shot him.
David Boylan are working on another research paper that will offer a different view of Oswald's actions over the 90 days before the assassination and even floats a new idea as to why he went back to the apartment to get his pistol....its totally new to me as I always bought into a more traditional scenario. But we really should try to break out of our box, which is why I really like where you are going and will be most interested to see Part 2.
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Thanks, Larry. Harold Weisberg said it best. He said something to the effect that in the early days common sense criticism of the Warren Commission could find no audience. Only the wackiest and craziest conspiracy theories got the media attention. Funny how some people still believe that BIll Greer shot Kennedy based on a bleached out version of the Zapruder film. Some things never change.
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Indeed, some things don't, which is depressing plus annoyingly repetitive. And just to demonstrate that...one more pitch to get you to do a presentation for the conference.....just let Gabriella set up a Zoom session for you and record you talking for half an hour or forty five minutes on Bad Boys Part 1...nothing more, just introduce the concept. No need to say anything beyond what you have already posted on the forum.
I'm really at lose ends to get some new concepts and research into the conference, otherwise its just a rehash.
I think even the Bad Boy concept would trigger some useful thinking.
So yeah, repetitive on my part, but I had to try....grin.
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THE BAD BOYS OF OAK CLIFF -- PART I
Larry Hancock replied to Gil Jesus's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Fascination analysis Gil, thanks...looking forward to more... -
Exposing the FPCC, Part One
Larry Hancock replied to James DiEugenio's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
I guess this shows how subjective photo ID can be, with all due apologies to Mr Masen I've always found him - well distinctively not good looking - and not at all a look alike for Lee Oswald if you are anywhere close to them, I put their photos side by side on my Web site long ago to illustrate that. Perhaps from a great distance but certainly not up close. Which of course is a totally subjective take on my part....I even asked Dick Russell how in the world he could comment on a similarity in his book and we had a laugh about it. -
New York Times lies about JFK. Again.
Larry Hancock replied to Robert Burrows's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Actually John, I would agree that it is exceedingly difficult at preset for any nation to compete with China in the broad sense, simply because as a quasi dictatorship it can organize all its resources including its economy around very tightly crafted strategies. On the other hand, certain of its cultural habits and related practices may present a few speed bumps on its Silk Road Strategy, especially in Africa where its "debt trap" approach is a matter of considerable debate. What is certain is that it is using investment as an organized tactic and putting huge amounts of loans behind it. From one perspective that guarantees access to natural resources, the question is whether it makes friends in the longer term - the Chinese are going to have to do a better job at winning local hearts and minds than American corporations did in the 20th Century. However I wasn't really thinking of broad economic competition, I was thinking very specifically about the tactics used in acquiring specific resources, legal or otherwise. That can be something entirely different if here is enough money involved and enough third parties available. The term Yankee Trader came into being in the Pacific trade out of Boston and was often applied to highly profitable but often "sharp" practices not properly discussed in Boston society. -
New York Times lies about JFK. Again.
Larry Hancock replied to Robert Burrows's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Strange how the U.S. used to be respected (and loathed a bit - in as "shrewd as a Yankee trader") for its economic and trade prowess and now we are perceived only in terms of our military - you might think a capitalist country would be sort of embarrassed not to be able to out trade, out deal, or generally compete economically with communist China. Hint - we really should be able to acquire, and process the raw materials we need four our economy without building artificial regimes or funding surrogate governments.... -
New York Times lies about JFK. Again.
Larry Hancock replied to Robert Burrows's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Actually the larger picture is that we really never seem to be able to weigh in and consider the local and cultural histories when we become involved, the culture in Afghanistan is tribal with warlords and local leaders always just doing the best deals they can to minimize banditry (or taxation) - and in the south that has involved opium - for centuries. Before we began supporting the Taliban against the Russians that trade was carried on pack animals, once we and the Saudi's began dumping in cash it moved up to hundreds of Honda pick ups. But we just show up and expect to change those traditional practices with "progressive" thinking and elections (and do it in a few years) and are always amazed when that effort fails. We also fail to note how different practices are even within the region - for reference take a look at how the Kurds fought large Isis formations to a standstill even in street to street fighting (destroying their own cities as necessary) - and how effective their women fighters (many expert snipers) were in those battles. But so as not to entirely give up my sarcasm, its interesting to see how many ultra conservative anti-immigration folks now want unrestricted immigration for "our" Afghans when before they wanted absolute travel bans - and how now they are forming welcome committees for incoming Muslims when before....well the hypocrisy is astounding. -
New York Times lies about JFK. Again.
Larry Hancock replied to Robert Burrows's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Yep, there will never be a shortage of reasons for foreign intervention - strategic, humanitarian, security. And that will generally come to include cultural intervention (projecting our system of democracy and equal rights overseas), regime change, nation building, and all the opportunities that go along with it. After all, its worked so well for us.... -
New York Times lies about JFK. Again.
Larry Hancock replied to Robert Burrows's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
That was pretty much the "mantra" for the period, the "domino" theory was first proposed for Iran right after the end of WWII and it was literally picked up and repeated for virtually every region around the globe - as soon as the various political and trade empires began to collapse in the face of anti-colonialism and local nationalism it was essentially cited as the explanation over again and again to turn each of them into a communist threat. ...depending on which variety of Communist was closest. And the Chinese became pretty influential in both north and central Africa ala Angola....of course the Cubans showed up too. There was always someone to take advantage of the local movement and the knee jerk reaction of communist threat followed. I think I covered that pretty repetitively in Shadow Warfare, at least it seemed repetitive to me. But you have to understand the depth of fear against Communism in that period, I saw it first hand, it was visceral. Everything was blamed on communists, every push for equal rights, every anti-colonialist movement, every Yankee Go Home sign or slogan. I mean it couldn't be us, or the Brits, or the French....clearly we were the good guys so it all had to be an international, evil conspiracy. -
New York Times lies about JFK. Again.
Larry Hancock replied to Robert Burrows's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Biden appears to have caught a lot of the normal power brokers flat footed by actually not letting himself be talked into continued involvement - I think a number of them figured that in the end they could sway him as they did Obama. But beyond that, there really is no more big money to be made in Afghanistan, or Iraq or Syria for that matter. And with China, Russia and Iraq doing such a good job of presenting themselves as conventional/atomic threats (especially China, nice of them to begin tripling their ICBM force as a motivator) they are an obvious driver for the military industrial complex. There was nothing on that order of similar strategic threat in 63 (Russia would not see atomic parity until circa 1970 and China was not really a conventional player beyond their national boundaries, nor were they making the sorts of territorial claims they are now) when outside of SE Asia JFK was actually bringing certain areas of military spending under control. I will say though that in the early 60's the JCS consistently positioned China as the driving threat in SE Asia, which is why they kept reporting in that a conventional response would have to be on the scale that ultimately China would come in to Laos or Vietnam and they would have to answer with nukes. -
New York Times lies about JFK. Again.
Larry Hancock replied to Robert Burrows's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
My brief answer is that Biden inherited it from the Bush's administration's decision to go after the Taliban in Afghanistan rather than after Isis and Bin Laden's Saudi connections because it was a) easier and far less embarassing, b) made quick news by bombing empty training camps never used in the 9/11 attack and c) created a diversion while the Saudi's involved covered their tracks. Bush then swore not to do security in Afghanistan, not to do policing or nation building there and that became a farce (his statements are on record but were quickly cancelled out by the neocons) - when Blackwater had to be hired to provide security for the new Afghan leadership you had a good clue we were out of our minds and our depth. Then the campaign began, all the old counter insurgency types came out and started preaching their Vietnam mantra again, inertia sets in, huge profits drive "investing" in a new democratic Afghanistan, the military kept asking for just more time for training and counter insurgency to take hold (ala Vietnam) and on and on. Then Trump signs a peace deal promising full withdrawal and giving the Taliban a year to cut the kind of local deals they always do with warlords, and apparently some of the national govt (if rumors about the money carried out to the UAE become proven) and of course the Taliban can walk across the whole country in days with that planning in place (many of the provincial capitals they took had been taken and retaken and taken again over the years). And Biden had the nerve to cut the cord, just as JFK was beginning to. Note the similarity between his remark (which is drawing so much hate) about the Afghans having to do it for themselves and JFK's almost identical remark about Vietnam in the fall of 63. -
Tipping Point now on Amazon
Larry Hancock replied to Larry Hancock's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Thanks Matt, that's great to hear! Let me try a brief point by point on your questions. 1. Basically the relationship between the CIA and DRE was bipolar - in terms of propaganda SAS thought they were doing good work and had the best "reach" of any exile group; in therms of intelligence collections they also still had the best links on island inside Cuba. From that perspective they were valuable. On the other hand, their military wing had become increasingly frustrated, bitter and openly dismissive (if not outright hostile) towards the Agency and the administration. Its military people had been negative towards CIA operations ever since the failures to supply and support its on island groups even before the Bay of Pigs. That disconnect simply got increasingly worse after the missile crisis and with the new administration crackdown on missions. That's when its military leaders like Blanco, Salvat and Carlos Hernandez really began to go off to pursue their own missions. At the same time WAVE continued to straddle the fence, even using some of those same individuals on missions in 1963. Given its track record, the level of hubris at Miami Station was pretty amazing. 2. Martino said that he was a courier, and I suspect that meant primarily to folks operating in Dallas - we know Vidal was there during that period, so was Salvat. My guess would be that his contact with Ruby would have been nothing more than carrying some coded message that would set up contact with other people - Martino had been part of the Havana scene and was identifiable, but it would have been more like a message just to contact someone else to kick start the process of bringing in Ruby. Martino would not have been the main contact with him after that point. 3. Yes, Helms response to Howard is available in a couple of places, in the form of memos he wrote. I should have footnoted that, I would start looking at the great articles on the outreach in at the National Security Archives, they have an extensive sections with documents on the back-channel approach. Its in more than one place but this would be a start: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/cuba/2018-04-20/cuba-us-intimate-diplomacy 4. A political visit to Texas had been under discussion since spring, actual planning would have had to begin at the end of summer but I don't think the actual city by city event schedule was available even at the time of the Sept announcement of the "Texas trip" 5. My sense of things is that alternative patsies may have been discussed at times as options were being tossed around but that once it was clear that Oswald would end up in Dallas (ie. with a new baby having arrived) at the time of the President's appearance there, then Oswald was it for the conspiracy. Oswald's Cuban/Castro image had been so well established with the media in New Orleans that was an "in your face" link while other mysterious Cuban agents would have been a much harder story to sell. The content on Oswald was already available, for that matter he was already being used in propaganda. -
A question regarding the RAMBLER
Larry Hancock replied to Gil Jesus's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
There was gated access to the paid parking lot to the west of the TSBD on the Elm Street extension. There was also an actual gatekeeper to open the gate in the morning and evenings, I've seen pictures of the swing type gate. Given that it was normally closed off during the day, Bowers was surprised to see a car driving in the lot at lunchtime. It would have been possible to drive across the construction area to the north of the building where there was no street or paved road but you would have been going across dirt by the railroad track once you got beyond the rear, loading dock entrance of the TSBD. I don't know that it was actually fenced off from the paid parking area, have never seen that discussed that I recall. Also noteworthy is that there was a special, partially covered area on the west directly adjacent to the building. Interestingly I've never seen a DPD report saying that are was searched....or that the locked rail car offices on the track across the train yard were actually opened and searched. You see an officer on top of one of the cars looking across the yard but I've always wondered if the cars were actually searched. -
Tipping Point now on Amazon
Larry Hancock replied to Larry Hancock's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Thanks David, Doug has talked about scheduling David Boylan and I on in September to discuss our new work on the Red Bird leads....that should be pretty lively....