Antti Hynonen

So to recap and to put all the pieces of information together: Sinatra co-founded Reprise. Baxter, Sinatra's friend recorded for Reprise. Mike Shore was employed by Reprise. Ruby knew Shore. Kilgallen and her kid appeared in a movie for which the score was composed Baxter. Earl Ruby and Irwin Weiner went to school with Mike Shore. Earl and Mike were raising funds for the defence of Jack Ruby. In any case there is a definite connection from Kilgallen to Shore to Ruby.

Frank Sinatra. In 1960 he co-founded Reprise Records, where he recorded exclusively after 1963. Any help? On Saturday November 23, 1963, Jack Zangetty, the manager of a $150,000 modular motel complex near Lake Lugert, Oklahoma, remarked to some friends that “Three other men, not Oswald, killed the President.” He also stated that “A man named Ruby will kill Oswald tomorrow and in a few days a member of the Frank Sinatra family will be kidnapped just to take some of the attention away from the assassination.” Two weeks later, Jack Zangetty was found floating in Lake Lugert with bullet holes in his chest, and he had been dead for about two weeks. Apparently Frank Sinatra and Irv Kupcinet were well acquainted. The Karyn Kupcinet murder wasn't solved... Sinatra and Marilyn Monroe? Just thinking...

Here's a memo I came across. This is related to the issue at hand. James J. Angleton memo advising CIA Director McCone and FBI Director Hoover on their answers before questioning by the Warren Commission. REVIEWED BY [next word indistinct, but looks like "HSCA"] TASK FORCE ON: [indistinct] __ RELEASE IN FULL __ RELEASE IN PART __ TOTAL DENIAL ["RELEASE IN FULL" was checked off -- but notice the third alternative! ] May 13, 1964 To: Mr. A.H. Belmont From: Mr. W.C. Sullivan Subject: JAMES ANGLETON CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY (CIA) James Angleton just called me to advise that Mr. McCone, Director of CIA, will testify before the Commission tomorrow. Angleton said it occurred to him that it would be well for both McCone and Mr. Hoover to be aware that the Commission might ask the same questions wondering whether they would get different replies from the heads of the two agencies. Angleton wanted us to know some of the things which he believes McCone will be asked and the replies which will be given. One question will be "Was Lee Harvey Oswald ever an agent of CIA?" The answer will be no. A second question will be "Does CIA have any evidence showing that a conspiracy existed to assassinate President Kennedy?" The answer to this question will also be no. The third question will be "What suggestions does CIA have to offer for safe-guarding the life of the President of the United States?" Angleton didn't have the complete answer to this worked out but because of the nature of the question, it wouldn't conflict with what the Bureau has already suggested. A fourth question will be "Does CIA believe the Soviet documents on Oswald submitted to the Warren Commmission accurately reflect the Soviet relations with Oswald?" Angleton said their answer cannot be either a flat yes or no because they do not have the knowledge to so state. He said he believes McCone's answer will be to the effect that CIA is aware that Soviet Russia does have a directorate charged with the responsibility for carrying out assassinations and, therefore, these documents in question would not normally reflect accurately relations with such a person as Oswald. However, on the other hand, CIA has no evidence that Oswald was under the instructions of this directorate charged with assassinations. Angleton said if anything further developed today which would be helpful to us, he would call. RECOMMENDATION: For the information of the Director

Ron, you're probably right about that perjury stuff. Although I'm guessing national security overrules perjury. Also under the protection of national security it may well be that the doings and statements by individuals such as McCone may be out of the reach of the law. Furthermore, this document received major amazement by many of the forum members under the thread "alias" on this forum. Most of us found it unbelievable.

Greg, maybe "Gut Schieffer" actually was meant to be "Gut Schiesser" = roughly good shot. Grammattically it should have been Guter Schiesser. Sometimes the letter f and the letter s can be mixed up... Just a thought.

Bill Miller: Is that document authentic? I'm sorry, but I just find it incredible that the government released that document. That basically confirms the doubts of all investigators, starting with DA Garrison; Oswald was an undercover CIA/FBI agent, at least up to the time in Russia. Well, and beyond Russia since McCone acknowledges that Bannister was LHO's handler. I wonder what percentage of researchers have read that? Unbelievable.... just unbelievable. I wonder what people like MacAdams, Posner and Robert Oswald would say about that - all tend to favor the WC LN -theory.

Very well written Mr. Parker. I have been waiting to read something like this about the Alec James Hidell alias/identity. That's a pretty sound theory; so to recap you would speculate the 112th MIG played a key role in creating the AJ Hidell identity, and was involved in using it to frame Oswald? Do you have any ideas how Nagell fits into this? As I recall he had a Hidell ID or something in his car when he was arrested in El Paso a few months prior. Thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed that.

From what I've read and heard so far Judyth Baker has had an interesting story to tell. Interestingly enough, she has evidence and eye witnesses to back some of her story. This we can't say about too many others who claim to know pieces of the puzzle. It will be interesting to see what her book will contain. As I recall she tells us, she will be attempting to publish a book soon. I would hear out any witnesses without prejudice, especially the ones who have something to say about this case that differs from the Warren Commission findings. Many key (eye) witnesses with first hand statements/evidence differing from the official line have been physically attacked, killed, intimidated or have "committed suicide". I believe Judyth Baker falls into the same category. Evidently there still is an unidentified group that feels some witnesses should not speak.

I'm glad the new rules are in place and enforced. Posting a bio would normally indicate what a person has done in his/her life(professionally, educationally or as a hobby). Additionally, for individuals posting on this forum, it would be meaningful to provide details of their interest in the JFK case and any research they might have done relating to the case. I believe I no longer possess the title of "the shortest bio posted" among the active members of this forum.

I'm sure you all remember the many witness statements along the lines: at least one shot, including the one that hit the President in the head was fired from the grassy knoll... Perhaps the first shot Gordon Arnold recognized as a gunshot was the kill shot, fired from behind him. He then hit the ground. At the same time Senator Yarborough's car was in position to see Arnold diving into the ground. I think Mr. Miller put it pretty much in the way I've understood the events to have taken place.

Paul, Many researchers suggest that in this photo, the westernmost window contains the faintly visible face and upper body of a man looking down towards the street. In the two photos posted by Larry, the larger one depicts the cropped photo, which does not include the window containing the man. The bottom picture includes the window and the faintly visible man. You should see the man in the bottom half of the window with his face looking in the direction from which this photo was taken. To the right of the head of the man you can see a light (from a lamp in the ceiling).

As a hobby I have been reading about the JFK assassination and related conspiracy theories. Occasionally I take part in debates related to the JFK assassination theories, all my related posts are found at the education forum web site. Although I've been reading about the JFK assassination case only since 2003, my interest in the case was inspired back in 1991 when I first saw Oliver Stone's Movie JFK. -------------------- Antti Hynonen

I was wrong. According to the New York Times (an article published around 11/22/1963) the more accurate number of people employed at the TSBD was 90. Believe it or not, only about 2 staff members remembered/admitted seeing strange individuals in the building before, or immediately after the shooting. Odd.

Four Days In November, The original coverage of the John F. Kennedy assassination by the staff of the New York Times. Introduction by Tom Wicker, edited by Robert B. Semple Jr. St. Martin's Press, New York. Copyright © 2003 by The New York Times. I have recently obtained this book. I suppose it contains just about all the articles published Nov. 22 - Nov. 25th 1963 in the New York Times, pertaining to the JFK assassination case. Here are some interesting quotes from the book: Page 28. "Later in the afternoon, Dr. Malcolm Perry, an attending surgeon, and Dr. Kemp Clark, chief of neurosurgery at Parkland Hospital, gave more details. Mr. Kennedy was hit by a bullet in the throat, just below the Adam's apple, they said. This had the appearance of a bullet's entry. Mr. Kennedy also had a massive, gaping wound in the back and one on the right side of the head. However, the doctors said it was impossible to determine immediately whether the wounds had been caused by one bullet or two." .... same page later..... Dr. Kemp Clark: " A missile had gone in and out the back of his head causing external lacerations and loss of brain tissue." Page 29. "The details of what happened when the shots rang out, as the president's car moved along at about 25 miles an hour are sketchy." Page 31. "There they encountered Senator Yarborough, white, shaken and horrified. The shots, he said, seemed to have come from the right and the rear of the car." Page 32. "By the time reporters arrived at the hospital, the police were guarding the presidential car closely. They would allow no one to approach it. A bucket of water stood by the car, suggesting that the back seat had been scrubbed out." Page 47-48. "Ten Feet From President" TORONTO, Nov. 22 (Canadian Press) - A man from suburban Willowdale who was only 10 feet away when President Kennedy was assassinated today said he first thought gunfire was the sound of firecrackers. Norman Similas, 34 years old, told The Star in a telephone conversation that he had been in Dallas on business. He was taking pictures of the motorcade when he saw the president slump to the floor, he said. Here is his story: "I was in Dallas on a convention and I decided to snap a picture of the president as the motorcade rolled by. The crowds had thinned out just past an overpass near the Trade Mart, so I had a good position when the motorcade came by at about 8 miles an hour. Then I suddenly heard a sharp crack. The first thing that came to my mind was that someone was setting off firecrackers. I turned away from the president's car and looked back to where the noise seemed to come from. Then somebody - I don't know who it was - yelled: ' The president's been shot.' I swung back to look at the car. A secret Service man ran up with his gun drawn. A policeman beside me drew his revolver and his eyes searched the crowd. Then another shot rang out and a third almost immediately on top of it. I was still staring at the car. The secret service man opened the car door and I saw the president slumped down to the floor and falling toward the pavement. Jackie Kennedy was sitting on the left side of the car and Governor Connally on the president's right. I could see a hole in the president's left temple and his head and hair were bathed in blood. The agent looked and gasped: 'Oh my God, he's dead.' " Page 48 - 49. "Boy described Shooting" "Chicago, Nov. 22 - The Chicago Tribune published today an eyewitness report by a 14-year-old boy who was standing 10 feet away and looking directly at President Kennedy at the time of the assassination. The boy, Alan Smith, a Boy Scout and ninth-grade pupil at the Stockyard Junior High School, gave the following description: 'It made me weak. I felt like sitting down. It was horrible. I was standing on the curb watching the parade along Main Street. We were permitted to skip school, if we had a note from our parents, to watch it. The crowds were cheering, but all at once they changed to screaming. The car was about 10 feet from me when a bullet hit the president in his forehead. The bullets came from a window right over my head in the building in front of which my friends and I were standing. Mr. Kennedy had a big wide smile. But when he was hit, his face turned blank. There was no smile, no frown - nothing. He fell down over Jackie's knees and didn't say anything. She stood up screaming, 'God, oh God, no.' There was blood over her and everything. She tried to raise him up but he fell back over her."

Wim, At the end there is a video with a section of Sibert's interview. Do you have the rest of it? Where could one see it in it's entirety?

Dave, Thank you for this link. This document is very interesting indeed. I haven't read through the entire document, however in particular, the following from Hemming's statement is new information to me. I wonder if anyone has been able to corroborate this: "In May or June of 1962, at Luis Rabel's house, Hemming met Rabel, Frank Bartes, Larry Laborde, Guy Bannister, Demorenschield (Sp! referring to George DeMohrenschildt?) and there was an attaché case filled in $100 bills. The purpose was to pay for assassinating Fidel Castro. Hemming declined because he thought Raoul Castro would be even worse." This would tie together Banister and DeMohrenschildt, both who know Oswald, and I suspect also "handled" Oswald. Are there any other sources supporting this meeting, or that Banister and DeMohrenschildt knew of each other?

I was reading the Spartacus.schoolnet site and the biography on Gerry Hemming. In the biography John Simkin provides interesting information: I would like John or someone else to elaborate on this. As I recall Lee Oswald was discharged in September 1959 and soon left for Russia thereafter. Under what circumstances did Lee Oswald and Gerry Hemming meet? Was this during Lee's El Toro period? Furthermore John states: What were Hemming's travels? Did Gerry Hemming's and Lee Oswald's paths cross at any point? What are the source and the evidence suggesting this interesting claim?

I don't believe that the testimony of Jarman, Williams et al. was truthful. Considering the eye witness testimony of individuals spotted on the 6th floor and maybe also the 5th floor. One of the people had to have seen someone who didn't belong up there. I'm guessing about 20-30 people worked in that building, only Danny Arce and one of the administration ladies recalls seeing someone unfamiliar in the building either immediately before or after the shooting. On the other hand there is testimony from Richard Carr, Roger Craig, Arnold Rowland and Amos Euins to mention a few. Then there are the stair cases and elevators as escape routes. Immediately following the shooting, both elevators were upstairs (no one near the stairs or using the stairs; would recall seeing anyone running down the stairs.) Oswald was spotted in or around the lunch room at 11:55 (by one of the gentlemen referred to above) and 12:15 (Carolyn Arnold) and 12:32 (Officer Baker). As with a number of other key issues; not many things add up, when you use the Warren Commission depositions as a source. There are too many conflicts and missing items.

Williams' hand-written deposition does not state where he ate his lunch, although one may assume that it was one the 5th floor (unless there is more to it). The deposition is also lacking in detail (which is to be expected). What surprises me is that most TSBD workers do not admit seeing any "suspicious" or otherwise unfamiliar individuals in the TSBD just before/after the shooting. I recall that one of the administration ladies did recall seeing a worker or engineer, who was not familiar to her, right after the deed. Does anyone recall who this was, or were there more unfamiliar individuals roaming around on 11/22/63? In my view the photo evidence supports two people on the 6th floor and 3 on the 5th floor during the event. Great posts Mr. Peters and Mr. Parker!

Gentlemen, if I may, I'll just throw in my 2 cents worth. By looking at the pictures that James posted (of Mr. X (from the picture with Robert) and the one with the reversed picture), I would say they are not of the same man. When it comes to photos I have no experience in analysing them. However in this case I would argue that when comparing the chin of the man with Robert Oswald and the chin of the other man, I would say they are not the same.

I believe it was decided by the investigators that the chicken bones belonged to a colleague of Oswalds. Oswald had something else for lunch on Friday the 22nd (I believe it was a sandwich). Oswald was killed two days later, on Sunday November 24th 1963.

Q2) Autopsy photos: As I recall, (other panel members may have a more accurate statements about this) the Warren Commission decided not to include the autopsy photos (or the analysis thereof) in their report. If they had included them they would have become published and available. Their decision, I believe, was based on the same reason which caused the actual autopsy of the President to fail aswell; the sensitivity of the issue at hand and their consideration of the feelings of the Kennedy family. But maybe the real autopsy photos would have sparked more questions than provided answers, maybe they would have debunked the entire autopsy report. Instead the WC had drawings made (by Rydberg at Bethesda Medical School) which were based on the photos?? According to some reports, during the HSCA investigation, someone broke into a safe that contained the evidence (including the autopsy photos) and apparently stole the photos which were being used by the HSCA, and made copies of them. Some, of these photos have been floating around since about 1980. Some black and white photos were available to researchers in the 1960's. Here's a little something about the photos from the Lancer site: http://www.jfklancer.com/aphotos.html Note: On November 23, 1963, James K. Fox, the Secret Service photographic expert, was given the autopsy film holders by JFK's personal physician, Admiral George Burkley, and told to develop them. At that time he made three sets of black and white autopsy photo prints at the Secret Service lab. On November 27, 1963, additional official copies were made at the Naval Processing Center. Copies of these photos were later given to JFK assassination researcher Mark Crouch who then made them available to JFK researchers. In 1992, the autopsy photos were specifically exempted from the JFK Records Act. ARRB Senior Staffer Doug Horne stated at the JFK Lancer 1998 Conference that these unofficial photos are cropped differently and are not as clear as the originals in the National Archives. Viewing the "Fox Set" is the only way this evidence available to the public. Note: The color photos were obtained by researcher and consultant Robert Groden during the House Select Committee on Assassinations. The X-rays are exhibits from the HSCA hearings and were obtained by JFK Lancer from the National Archives.

Q1) Presidential protection, buildings, open windows: From what I have read, one of the typical duties of the secret service, when protecting the President, would be to pay particular attention to open windows along a motorcade route. It is impossible to put a SS man in each window on a route, but it is possible to be alert and pay attention to open windows with spectators on the route. Here's a short extract from Clint Hill's testimony. In fact this is available from the http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhillC.htm site. Arlen Specter: And what building is it? Clinton Hill: It is the Texas School Book Depository. Arlen Specter: Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit No. 354? Clinton Hill: Yes, sir; it does. Arlen Specter: Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street? Clinton Hill: Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left. Arlen Specter: Did you notice anything unusual about it? Clinton Hill: Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way. Arlen Specter: What is your general practice, if any, in observing such buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade? Clinton Hill: We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building along the way, people hanging out, windows open. Arlen Specter: And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any open windows in the Texas School Depository Building? Clinton Hill: Yes, sir; there were. Arlen Specter: Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were open at this time? Clinton Hill: No, sir; I cannot. I hope this helps. Like Jack White pointed out, you can perform google searches to obtain answers to your questions, if you have trouble, ask us. When doing research, I would caution you to be skeptical of what is said on the Mcadams site.

Evgenia; Q1) Presidential protection, buildings, open windows: From what I have read, one of the typical duties of the secret service, when protecting the President, would be to pay particular attention to open windows along a motorcade route. It is impossible to put a SS man in each window on a route, but it is possible to be alert and pay attention to open windows with spectators on the route. Here's a short extract from Clint Hill's testimony. In fact this is available from the http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhillC.htm site. Arlen Specter: And what building is it? Clinton Hill: It is the Texas School Book Depository. Arlen Specter: Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit No. 354? Clinton Hill: Yes, sir; it does. Arlen Specter: Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street? Clinton Hill: Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left. Arlen Specter: Did you notice anything unusual about it? Clinton Hill: Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way. Arlen Specter: What is your general practice, if any, in observing such buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade? Clinton Hill: We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building along the way, people hanging out, windows open. Arlen Specter: And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any open windows in the Texas School Depository Building? Clinton Hill: Yes, sir; there were. Arlen Specter: Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were open at this time? Clinton Hill: No, sir; I cannot. Q2) Autopsy photos: As I recall, (other panel members may have a more accurate statements about this) the Warren Commission decided not to include the autopsy photos (or the analysis thereof) in their report. If they had included them they would have become published and available. Their decision, I believe, was based on the same reason which caused the actual autopsy of the President to fail aswell; the sensitivity of the issue at hand and their consideration of the feelings of the Kennedy family. But maybe the real autopsy photos would have sparked more questions than provided answers, maybe they would have debunked the entire autopsy report. Instead the WC had drawings made (by Rydberg at Bethesda Medical School) which were based on the photos?? According to some reports, during the HSCA investigation, someone broke into a safe that contained the evidence (including the autopsy photos) and apparently stole the photos which were being used by the HSCA, and made copies of them. Some, of these photos have been floating around since about 1980. Some black and white photos were available to researchers in the 1960's. Here's a little something about the photos from the Lancer site: http://www.jfklancer.com/aphotos.html Note: On November 23, 1963, James K. Fox, the Secret Service photographic expert, was given the autopsy film holders by JFK's personal physician, Admiral George Burkley, and told to develop them. At that time he made three sets of black and white autopsy photo prints at the Secret Service lab. On November 27, 1963, additional official copies were made at the Naval Processing Center. Copies of these photos were later given to JFK assassination researcher Mark Crouch who then made them available to JFK researchers. In 1992, the autopsy photos were specifically exempted from the JFK Records Act. ARRB Senior Staffer Doug Horne stated at the JFK Lancer 1998 Conference that these unofficial photos are cropped differently and are not as clear as the originals in the National Archives. Viewing the "Fox Set" is the only way this evidence available to the public. Note: The color photos were obtained by researcher and consultant Robert Groden during the House Select Committee on Assassinations. The X-rays are exhibits from the HSCA hearings and were obtained by JFK Lancer from the National Archives. I hope this helps. Like Jack White pointed out, you can perform google searches to obtain answers to your questions, if you have trouble, ask us. When doing research, I would caution you to be skeptical of what is said on the Mcadams site. Antti Hynonen

This is actually from an older thread and posting started by DBoylan. In DBoylans posting there are two affidavits by private eyes called Hathcock and Payne, who had a somewhat strange encounter with Loren Hall and Gerry Hemming in Los Angeles. The two men had left a Johnson 30.06 semi-auto rifle with a 30x Bushnell scope, at the office of the private eyes. Although this issue was already partially covered in the older thread I'd like to ask: Are there any photos or other evidence of such a rifle being found at Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63? The rifle was picked up prior to the assassination by one of these men and a Mexican. According to Mr. Payne he said something to the effect of: if the scope was sighted right one could hit a dime at 500 yards. Also one of the men said in their statement that they recalled seeing a photo from Dealey on 11/22/63, of a detective (Lt. Day?) carrying such a rifle. Am I mistaken, or is there anything of value to add to this? Also, was it Loren Hall, the Mexican and Lee Oswald that visited Sylvia Odio? Antti Hynonen