Antti Hynonen

Thanks James, your supply of photos seems unlimited. John, There's more about that book you mentioned: After Brown: Elman's Career Dreams Go Unfulfilled After Brown, Elman recounts that he "needed to do something different. I was getting tired of writing, or rewriting, briefs." He became permanently embittered when, after a disastrous interview with Robert Kennedy in 1961, he did not become assistant attorney general as he had been led to believe he would. Named instead to the FTC, he shook up a moribund agency through sheer force of intellect and stubbornness. He put truthfulness in advertising on the public agenda and led the agency to mandate health warning labels on cigarettes in 1964. Elman wanted eventually to become a federal judge, which he did not tell Kennedy. By 1964, however, his most influential patrons could no longer help. In 1963, Elman's law school classmate and close friend, Washington Post publisher Philip Graham -- through whose entrée to John Kennedy Elman hoped he would be appointed to the bench -- died. In 1962, Frankfurter suffered a stroke and retired from the Court, and in 1965 he died too. When the mourner's prayer was recited at the justice's funeral service, Elman wrote, "the dam burst, at least for me." Philip Elman made more history than almost any other government lawyer in American history. Proud, arrogant, opinionated, abrasive, he would have appreciated this book, and for that we have Norman Silber to thank. This can be found here: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/scripts/print...521_newman.html

In addition to the names mentioned by me in my earlier posts, the only other assistant attorney general, under RFK, I could find was Burke Marshall, b. 1922. Perhaps there were others who were appointed in 1961, but I could find no record of them on the internet. According to the source I read yesterday, Orrick was placed into a different office in 1962, not the attorney general's office, I think it was something like Deputy Under Secretary of State something like that anyhow. Later he bounced back to the Attorney general's office though, and I think it was under RFK as well. C David Heymann or actually Clemens Claude Heymann, seems to have a lot of inside information on RFK and his policies.

John, To continue, I will share this resource that I found. It's with the University of Massachusetts, Boston, JFK library pages (list of manuscripts). This seems to list many people involved with and related to JFK. As far as I had time to analyse this, it seems to list the assistant attorney general's as well. I have a few more assistant attorney general candidates for you to look at John: Oberdorfer Louis F. born 1919 (seemed to serve for 4 years though). Orrick William H. born 1915, Only served 1961-1962 as asst. atty. general. here's the link: http://www.cs.umb.edu/~serl/jfk/arcnms.htm

Perhaps it could be Ramsey W. Clark, b. 1927. Only 32-33 as born in 1927, but he was one appointed as assistant attorney general by John F. Kennedy in 1961. "Born to power - Clark's father was attorney general in the 1940s and later a Supreme Court justice - the University of Chicago Law School graduate was appointed assistant attorney general by John F. Kennedy in 1961 and went on to head that department as attorney general under Lyndon Johnson from 1967 to 1969. During his years in the Justice Department, Clark was a staunch supporter of the civil-rights movement. While in charge of government efforts to protect the protesters in Alabama, he witnessed firsthand "the enormous violence that was latent in our society toward unpopular people." He had a similar experience when he was sent to Los Angeles after the rioting in Watts and discovered abuses by the police and the National Guard." The above in quotes from: http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html

He would know wouldn't he.... just trying to cover his a**.

As I recall Tony (Anthony) Frank's claims regardng KGB infiltration of the CIA, on several threads in this Forum supports these views. He claims to have first hand knowledge of the contents of a closed door congressional hearing where a massive KGB infiltration of the CIA was exposed. This is from memory, so it could have been FBI, but I think it was the CIA.

Hi John- Thanks for the lesson on the Gunpowder Resisue issue. Very thorough and well expalined. Can you expand a little bit on the abort team issue? I too, tend to believe Tosh, but I'm somewhat unclear as to what he states took place with said team after they arrived in DP. Nothing? Being familiar with Tosh's assertions and SOP for operations such as this, do you feel like it's a possibility that they actually may have attempted to abort the assassination by firing at one or more of the gunmen, thus creating one or both of the pools of blood in question? I'm just speculating here. What are your thoughts on that scenario? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Greg, Some of the info your asking about is available on an earlier thread with Robert "Tosh" Plumlee's name in the thread. We had a pretty good Q&A with him a while back. Basically Tosh was the (co-)pilot on this flight and was only told where to fly with the folks on board (he was not part of the actual abort team, as I recall). Once in Dallas at Red Bird, after most passengers had left, Tosh and Sergio went to Dealy Plaza and got there right around 12:30 to see if they could be of help to the abort team, Sergio was on the inside, Tosh wasn't. It was Sergio's call to go waltz around the Plaza at that time. I don't know if Tosh was told of too many details of who was supposed to do exactly what and where and at what time. Other members could possibly add to this and correct me if I've misstated anything. The best source, right now is the Plumlee thread, as Tosh isn't posting for the moment.

For a few more comments and thoughts on Saul, see this thread on the forum, from some time back. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ic=1116&hl=saul Fellow Forum member Justin Martell tells us that a law enforcement guru by the name of Hugh McDonald has tracked down the man in the Mexico city photos and claims to have spoken to him. Further, McDonald claims that the man is called Saul. According to Martell, this information is available in the book titled "Coincidence or Conspiracy?" It seems that now two separate sources identify this man as Saul Sage (Sague). I believe the Yuriy Ivanovitch Moskalev story is a CIA disinformation attempt, merely because "there ain't nothin' Russian about the way that fellow looks".

Steve, Thanks for that information. I have done some research of my own. I found that both the North Dakota and the Maine license plates of that era also consisted of (6) black numbers on white plates. What is worth noting is the fact that in 1963 TX license plates had the same configuration, except that also letters were included. I wonder how Lee Bowers Jr. was able to make that distinction between TX and out-of state plates. I suppose other characteristics were apparent. Also the Mississippi plates were similar, but with Blue numbers. Nebraska was also close to what Lee said, but with 5 digits. Arizona is blue on a white background, he could have been mistaken about the color (black vs. blue), but since AZ typically had letters as well, I suppose that doesn't quite fit in.

Perhaps this ties in too: WC witness statement from Lee Bowers. Mr. BALL - Did you notice any cars around there? Mr. BOWERS - Yes; there were three cars that came in during the time from around noon until the time of the shooting. Mr. BALL - Came in where? Mr. BOWERS - They came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the extension of Elm Street, which runs in front of the School Depository, 'and which there is no way out. It is not a through street to anywhere. Mr. BALL - There is parking area behind the School Depository, between that building and your tower? Mr. BOWERS - Two or three railroad tracks and a small amount of parking area for the employees. Mr. BALL - And the first came along that you noticed about what time of day? Mr. BOWERS - I do not recall the exact time, but I believe this was approximately 12:10, wouldn't be too far off. Mr. BALL - And the car you noticed, when you noticed the car, where was it? Mr. BOWERS - The car proceeded in front of the School Depository down across 2 or 3 tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or was checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he could, the same outlet he came into. Mr. BALL - The place where Elm dead ends? Mr. BOWERS - That's right. Back in front of the School Depository was the only way he could get out. And I lost sight of him, I couldn't watch him. Mr. BALL - What was the description of that car? Mr. BOWERS - The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station wagon with out-of-State license. Mr. BALL - Do you know what State? Mr. BOWERS - No; I do not. I would know it, I could identify it, I think, if I looked at a list. Mr. BALL - And, it had something else, some bumper stickers? Mr. BOWERS - Had a bumper sticker, one of which was a Goldwater sticker, and the other of which was of some scenic location, I think.Mr. BALL - And, did you see another car? Mr. BOWERS - Yes, some 15 minutes or so after this, at approximately 12 o'clock, 20 to 12--I guess 12:20 would be close to it, little time differential there--but there was another car which was a 1957 black Ford, with one male in it that seemed to have a mike or telephone or something that gave the appearance of that at least. Mr. BALL - How could you tell that? Mr. BOWERS - He was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. He was very close to the tower. I could see him as he proceeded around the area. Mr. BALL - What kind of license did that have? Mr. BOWERS - Had a Texas license. Mr. BALL - What did it do as it came into the area, from what street? Mr. BOWERS - Came in from the extension of Elm Street in front of the School Depository. Mr. BALL - Did you see it leave? Mr. BOWERS - Yes; after 3 or 4 minutes cruising around the area it departed the same way. He did probe a little further into the area than the first car. Mr. BALL - Did you see another car? Mr. BOWERS - Third car, which entered the area, which was some seven or nine minutes before the shooting, I believe was a 1961 or 1962 Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road. It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male. Mr. BALL - What did it do? Mr. BOWERS - He spent a little more time in the area. He tried-he circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt to get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and slowly cruised down back towards the front of the School Depository Building. Mr. BALL - Then did he leave? Mr. BOWERS - The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just above the assassination site. Mr. BALL - Did the car park, or continue on or did you notice? Mr. BOWERS - Whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it pulled up only a short distance, I couldn't tell. I was busy. Mr. BALL - How long was this before the President's car passed there? Mr. BOWERS - This last car? About 8 minutes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Golwater sticker, out-of-state license plate and sticker of scenic attraction. Could the state be Arizona and the sticker a Grand Canyon sticker? Hmmm....

Tim, I don't think the Paine's were 100% innocent, however, I don't think their role had to do with the TSBD. As I see it Lee was looking for a job in many places in down-town Dallas, and along the motorcade route. I think details of the conspiracy and the patsy were concocted after the patsy was in place (IMO).

Mr. Lemkin, I understand Marina's point of view and some of her actions regarding her own efforts. One of the discrepancies in her testimony I have always thought to be of the oddest nature, is the back yard photos. Many researchers assume they are fakes, that some of the items seen in the pictures have been added afterwards. According to Marina's WC testimony: Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol? Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures. I don't know how to take pictures. He gave me a camera and asked me someone should ask me how to photograph, I don't know. Mr. RANKIN. Was it on a day off that you took the picture? Mrs. OSWALD. It was on a Sunday. Mr. RANKIN. How did it occur? Did he come to you and ask you to take the picture? Mrs. OSWALD. I was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the rifle and l was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and asked me to press a certain button. Mr. RANKIN. And he was dressed up with a pistol at the same time, was he? Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Mr. RANKIN. You have examined that picture since, and noticed that the telescopic lens was on at the time the picture was taken, have you not? Mrs. OSWALD. Now I paid attention to it. A specialist would see it immediately, of course. But at that time I did not pay any attention at all. I saw just Lee. These details are of great significance for everybody, but for me at that time it didn't mean anything. At the time' that I was questioned, I had even forgotten that I had taken two photographs. I thought there was only one. I thought that there were two identical pictures, but they turned out to be two different poses. Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the prints of the photograph after the prints were made? That is, did you put them in a photographic album yourself? Mrs. OSWALD. Lee gave me one photograph and asked me to keep it for June somewhere. Of course June doesn't need photographs like that. END Now at this time, roughly one year later from the time she first took photos, she recalled taking two photos. In fact we know that at least 4 poses exist. According to Gary Mack: Quote: Here is the HSCA photo panel report on the backyard photos: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...l6/html/HSCA_Vo l6_0072b.htm Issued 25 years ago, no one has refuted their findings or duplicated the work and found discrepancies. The precise angle of the sun for that date and location is easily found and one can re-create the shadow angles precisely. No one who has done so has found any error. Marina still says she took pictures of LHO in the backyard, though she remembers some other poses without the guns that he apparently threw away. Marina and Marguerite admitted under oath and to others, including myself, that they destroyed a fourth pose BEFORE Dallas Police found the other pictures. And Oswald is known to have sent prints to others, including the ACLU in New York (one of the employees remembered it, but found that it was missing from their file). What you are reading on the Forum and elsewhere are the comments from people who do not fully understand photo interpretation and the physics of photography. Gary 12/10/04 End Quote This means there were pose(s) with the gun over Lee's head, poses with no guns at all, and 3 more poses with the guns. I suppose a half of a roll of film was spent, but yet she recalls taking one or two photos, and this is only 1 year after the fact? It would be interesting to hear from her what the truth is regarding these photos, because as far as I can tell, we haven't heard it from her yet. Perhaps, you can ask her if she could elaborate on this issue?

Craig was no where near the Tippit killing when it occurred, how could he be a key witness to that event? On the other hand, his recollection of the delivery of the message to the TSBD and to Fritz regarding Tippit's death, could very well have occurred around 1:25 p.m. after the rifle was found. The confusion with the license plate is a good point, but doesn't change the fact that he witnessed a man resembling Oswald enter the Rambler driven by a latin looking man, nor the fact that several memebers of the police force identified the TSBD rifle as a Mauser.

I'll second Mr. Jeffries' last post quoted above. Besides, I've been to www.manuscriptservice.com it has some useful information, but I can't say it's in my favorites list on my "Internet Explorer".

A little something to consider: R. Craig was a fellow officer, present at the time when the TSBD rifle was found, never agreed to change his mind and insisted the rifle was a Mauser, committed suicide in the mid- 70's. His life was pretty miserbale from 1963 - his death, according to Craig himself Bill Decker made sure of that. In the statement by Dr. Laburda, the psychologist treating Seymour Weitzman comments on Weitzman as a case : " I would not call it a paranoid condition, I would simply say fear of pesecution, or fear for his life, and that is very much based on, I think, on his experiences because of the death of former President Kennedy." The goons got to him too...

Seymour Weitzman was among the identifiers of the rifle found on the 6th floor. He identified it as a Mauser, later changed his mind. Seems like he was a key witness to support the conspiracy, until his mind was changed.

Has the gentleman, holding his jacket conveniently over his right hand, ever been identified? Looks like another "agent". Covering ones hand with a coat completely seems a little suspicous, like one is trying to hide something. A gun?

Tim, I contacted the director Mark Sobel last summer, regarding posibilities of viewing/purchasing this film. Here's his reply: "Hi. The film will be playing the fall film festivals, and hopefully will attract a distributor. No plans for video release at this time. Keep checking the site for info. Thanks, Mark. " Haven't seen it but would like to asap.

I believe that man is sitting on the stairs, he is one of the three??? men seen standing on the stairs coming down from the knoll (this can be seen from other photos and footage at or around the time of the head shot). One of the men was one of the caretakers of the area, his name slips my mind right now. The two??? others that were standing next to him have never come forward, and their identities remain unknown. I believe the man you are referring to is one of the three??? men as described by me above....

* Roy is dead now * Roy's boss took in a Mauser deer rifle and another rifle into the TSBD -building a few days before the assassination to show it around. * Roy was a little over staffed in October but still hired Oswald because he felt sorry for him (Oswald had a baby coming and another one at home and he was an ex-marine) * Roy saw Oswald in the TSBD at about 12:32 on 11/22/63 with DPD officer Marrion Baker, but then decided he was missing at 12:36, dug up the Paine's Irving address and gave it to the cops. * I recall hearing rumours that Roy was associated with some extreme group (right wing?) I'm not sure.... could be BS I'm pretty sure the eye witnesses and most investigators agree the snipers lair is on the 6th floor of the TSBD...

John, Andy, others: I wouldn't worry about someone's bitter comments too much. It seems to me that we seem to have at least one new person at a time on this Forum whose purpose of posting is other than to discuss and debate the JFK assassination. We've had some interesting characters, some of whom are still around. The way I see it, Mr. Astucia is/was the character for this week. Since you have kindly posted Mr. Astucia's e-mail, he no longer needs to be concerned that other members think he left at his own will, we now know his posting rights have been taken away by the administrators. Surely a relief to know this. Eagerly waiting to see who will pop in next week. One policy I would like to see enforced, is the policy of staying on Topic. As issues such as the holocaust, the political situation in the middle-east and anti-semitism are sensitive and important issues, they do not exactly link into the JFK assassination. However, if I'm wrong and if they do directly relate, perhaps someone can enlighten me. Often times new threads are started that don't relate to the issue at hand in any way. Otherwise, I think the quality of the issues here are at a professional level and very interesting. I am grateful to be able to be part of the Forum.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Ruby.htm Perhaps you know of the photos on John's Spartacus site, there are several photos from inside the Carousel, I believe... Check out the above link.

Hi, Thanks for sharing. Read this same article on CNN on the net, earlier today. Tried to send them some feedback re: the mistake. Good ole' Johnny (age 22 back then) was a shoe store manager, not a cop.

This information just helps to explain the fact why a government led investigation is useless. It sounds like the issued task is: "find out the truth, but in case you find part of the truth or the whole truth don't ever write about it or discuss it with anyone". Therefore the decision from the outset is: there is no conspiracy, and even if there is we won't look into it.

Penn Jones also was the gentleman who helped out key witness, former (decorated) Dallas police officer Roger Craig, who was fired by Sheriff Bill Decker a few years after the assassination. Penn Jones and Jim Garrison helped Craig bring to light what he knew and had witnessed on 11/22/63. Check out Penn Jones http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKjonesP.htm and R. Craig http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcraigR.htm As for evidence of a shooter from the front, we shouldn't forget that a vast amount of skull and brain matter sprayed onto motorcycle police officer Hargis, who rode behind and to the left of Jackie Kennedy. So much for the head shot having been fired from behind JFK....