Antti Hynonen

James, could you kindly post the Duran photo comparison's, or refer us to a previous post, etc. so we may have a look. You certainly aroused my interest.

Shanet, Interesting thought, however, Tippit did the following after the assassination: * He drove off quickly from the edge of down-town to Oak Cliff * He pulled over a driver, by swerving in front ofhim and forcing him to stop. He then inspected the rear-seat area of this vehicle before speeding off again. He was observed by the person(s) in the car. No indication of a visible wound on Tippit. * He entered a record store and tried to make a phone call, no indication by the persons in the store that he was wounded. I think the blood found near the TSBD, on the sidewalk and over by the knoll on the walkway, will remain a mystery. I think someone got hit and was able to escape the scene without being detected (as having been injured). It is interesting that also the other shooter(s) escaped, virtually undetected. Some pretty slick blending-in with the crowd (or police, or agents) took place.

Interesting. Let me guess, he committed "suicide" by firing a shotgun in his mouth?

John, interesting about Wikipedia and your Mockingbird article. The comments you have enclosed are from roughly 1 year ago, are there any comments form the past few days, or is there another problem with the dates?

Tim, maybe you haven't read about this as it is a UK program(me) not US.

Let's see, rifle and tall man: Hathaway testified; tall man, blond hair, with rifle case in Dallas just before. Quote: VOLUNTARY STATEMENT. Not Under Arrest Form No. 86 SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT COUNTY OF DALLAS, TEXAS Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Philip Ben Hathaway Address 11021 Quail Run, Dallas Age 28 , Phone No. DI 8 6532 DOB: July 9, 1935 DOB: Chicago, Ill. Wks: Lone Star Gas Co, Research & Development Dept. RI 1 5711 Ext 776 Deposes and says: Just before Noon today, my friend John Stevens Rutter Lawrence, who works with me, and I and two other friends left the Texaco Building where we work going to the parade. We were walking down Commerce up to Main and Main to Akard andwhile [sic] we were walking up Akard towards Main Street we passed a man who was carrying a rifle in a gun case. I saw this man walking towards me, walking towards Commerce, and too particular attention to him because ofhis [sic] size. I am 6'5" and weigh 200 pounds. This man was very tall, approx 6'6" or 6'7" over 250 pounds, very thick and big through the chest, in his 30's, dirty blonde hair worn in a crew cut. Was wearing a grey colored business suit with white dress shirt, fair complexion. I remarked to my friend that there was a guy carrying a gun in all this crowd and made the remark that he was probably a secret service man. I could very easily identify this man if I ever saw him again. The gun case was holding a rifle because I could tell there was a gun in it as it was a combination leather and cloth gun case and without a gun, it would have been limp, but it was heavy and he was carrying it by the handle and the barrell [sic] of the gun was up at a 45 degree angle. It was beige or tan leather and olive drab material. We can place the time we saw this man walking with the gun as I recall someone in the crowd asking for the time and they said it was 11:50A.M. /s/ Philip Ben Hathaway Subscribed and sworn to before me on this the 22nd day of Nov A. D. 1963 /s/ Rosemary Allen Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas Un-quote. Next, getaway car spotted. Can you believe they forgot to fill up before shooting the President??? This is an excerpt of the transcript of the DPD radio traffic from November 22nd 1962. Too bad they say Pontiac.... Quote: 1:23 1022. DIS: 10-4, 603. 1:23. 1023. 91(?): What was his direction of travel on Jefferson? 1024. DIS: Traveling west on Jefferson, 400 block, last seen -- 401 West Jefferson -- correction: 401 East Jefferson. 1025. 91(?): 10-4. 1026. DIS: Wanted for investigation for assault to murder on a police officer: A white male; approximately thirty; about five foot eight; slender build; has black hair; a white jacket; a white shirt and dark trousers. The suspect last seen running west on Jefferson from 400 East Jefferson. 1:24. 1027. DIS: Does anybody know the condition of the officer? 1028. DIS: 60. 1029. 87: 87. (siren) 1030. DIS: 87. 1031. 87: Was that 4340 West Davis? 1032. DIS: Yes. 1033. 87: 10-4. 1034. DIS: Somebody pulled in there and bought some gas; driving a white Pontiac '61 or '62 station wagon with the prefix P(ecos) E(llis). He had a rifle laying on the seat. 1035. 87: 10-4. 1036. DIS: Have a citizen following this car at this time, unknown direction. 1037. 605: 605, Code 6. 1:25 1038. DIS: 10-4, 605. 1:25. -------------------------------------------------

Jim, There's another thread on the forum that has touched upon this issue. Also the thread regarding the CIA and John Simkin's JFK pages contains information regarding this. I will try and locate the thread, and PM it to you. Perhaps it is of interest to you.

Just a wild guess: Penn Jones Jr. ?

Don't forget Amos Euins who identified a shooter with a bald spot on his head firing from the 6th floor, east? window. Amos also heard some other eye witness describe a similar looking man exiting (fleeing) out the back of the TSBD (to a police officer). From what I recall, the man as described by Amos made me think of the Mexico City Oswald, aka Saul Sage, or Mario Tauler Sague.

Assuming it is possible for 3-4 men to descend in say a time frame of 40 seconds after the last shots were fired, how do they exit the elevator shaft undetected on the first floor with TSBD staff (if not police officers) around the bottom floor? According to Truly's testimony the elevators were on the 5th floor. Did the conspirators walk down to the 4th and then descend to the first, or how did they accomplish their descent past the elevators which were apparently blocking the shaft on the 5th floor? I can't quite see how this alternative would be a successful escape route, as it contains too many risks.

Marina Oswald, and any of the following if they were still alive: Bill Decker Will Fritz Chief Curry Edwin Walker

Ron, you make a few good points. I read and re-read Carr's testimony aswell, and in my view the sequence and timing of all events is not totally clear from his testimony. I suspect he meant that soon after the shots were fired, he saw 3 men (in addition to the man in the sports coat with the heavy rimmed glasses) fleeing the TSBD building. He may not have been precise about the exact location of the vehicle on Houston. Carr's testimony has undergone a lot of scrutiny and has received all kinds of criticism, some of it being totally called for. One argument was that, since the distance from where Carr was, he could not have given such detail of this man with the sports coat and horn rimmed glasses, considering the distance to the window of the TSBD. My analysis of Carr's testimony and this particular critcism, is that Carr was following this man's action in detail, starting from the TSBD and then followed his movements and reaction until he was out of sight. The way he was able to give the detail was by keeping an eye on the subject as he was at a closer range, running towards the car (he must have approached Carr's location by over 100 yards). Considering Carr's military background and heavy combat experience, I would be extra cautious about dismissing his testimony regarding the shots fired and his observations in general (goes for Mr. Brehm too). Besides, if Carr had made up a fairy tale, why would his life have been threatened on many occasions, and why would there have been actual attempts on taking his life? A bit similar to the threats on R. Craig's life.

Thanks Pat, I remember reading about Caster a few times. It seemed like he had a rock solid alibi, as he was visiting a university some distance away on that day. Of course his part may have been to only provide the weapons. What made it interesting is that he brought in a 30.06 Mauser and a .22 caliber, that he had bought for his son. A Mauser was the weapon found on the 6th floor, as identified by Officers Weitzman and Craig. As I recall Caster displayed the rifles in Truly's office. I could be wrong though.

Thanks everyone for your input and comments. The way I see it, either everyone questioned at the TSBD is not entirely honest, or then someone was (forced to be) in on the assassination. There was enough staff working up there and observing the motorcade on the 5th and 6th floors to have noticed someone, or something out of the ordinary. Something that would have helped investigators solve the crime. In my view this important evidence didn't come to light. Therefore I believe the only possibilty is that someone from the TSBD conspired in the plot, or they lied during the WC hearings. I'm not familiar with Romack and Barnett's testimonies, I will check that out next.

Yes, not many testify to this type of an event. Of course men assumed to be "agents" were seen standing around the back, soon after the incident. I can't tell precisely from R. Carr's testimony whether the 3 men ran out simultaneously (see below), however it sure seems like the were moving together and then stepped into the same station wagon and left. Q: And at the same time you were looking up towards the Texas Book Depository seeing three men come out from behind it. Is that right? A: Do you see these dots on this -- Q: Would you answer my question and then explain, please, sir. I say would you answer the question and then explain. A: Yes, I will answer your question, repeat it, please. THE COURT: Mr. Carr, when a question is put to you, you can answer it yes or no, but you have a right to explain your answer so you cannot be cut off, so if you wish to explain the answer, you are permitted by law to do so. (Whereupon, the question was read back by the Reporter.) A: Yes, that's right. BY MR. DYMOND: Q: And also at the same time you were watching the man whom you say you had seen on the Fifth Floor of the Book Depository walk on Houston Street towards Main. Is that right? A: Yes, and I have -- may I explain that? Q: Yes. THE COURT: You may explain. A: The same man that I saw here in this window was with the three men that I told you a minute ago, they came out from behind the School Book Depository, got in the station wagon, one man crossed the street and then came down this side of Houston Street and turned onto Commerce Street. BY MR. DYMOND: Q: And you were watching that procedure at the same time that you were watching what was going on in the grassy knoll area? A: No, sir. Q: And what was going on around the Presidential vehicle and in the motorcade, right? A: No, sir, I was watching that man at that time, and I watched him until I could see him no longer, but that man acted as if he was in a hurry and someone was following him, and I would know that man if I ever saw him again.

Thanks Pat, makes sense. Although I think a police officer would ignore a young lady walking in or out of the TSBD, but perhaps 3-4 men hurrying off would raise suspicion, if not enough to stop them, maybe enough to remember that they ran by you.

Thanks Ron and Thanks Bernice. I do still find the elevator shaft descent a bit stretched. Either way, I do want to re-raise the question that why do none of the TSBD employees (roughly 100) say that they witnessed unfamiliar individuals inside the building, prior to the assassination, who did not work there? How is it possible that none of them saw any suspicious characters coming in or out of the building? Eye witness R. Carr did. Why did none of the Police officers in the immediate vicinity of the TSBD not try to stop the individuals clearly fleeing the building as seen by Carr and others?

Yes, I was wondering about the location of the house in question. The second police car in the alley, at the Tippit shooting, was it headed towards 9th street, and then 8th.... Harry Olsen at the wheel making sure everthing with Tippit occurred as agreed???? James H. Martin, also romatically briefly involved with Marina Oswald, relationship between the two came to an end as Robert Oswald came into the picture and was involved in a relationship with Marina. This information is based on a letter from James H. Martin, obtained by researcher Gibson Vendettuoli, who occasionally posts on this Forum. The letter can be read on an earlier thread in this Forum, from the latter part of 2004.

Good point Tim, certainly a possibility. However, that raises additional questions/comments: * How do you get your rope loose from the top of the elevator shaft, when you're the last man down? I gather a rope was never found hanging in the shaft, or was there? * What if the elevators were indeed on the 5th floor (as per Truly). The three African Americans were on the 5th floor and were observing the motorcade driving by, and were apparently the last to use at least one of the elevators, and according to eye witnesses the shots were fired from the 6th floor and therefore the "team" was on the 6th floor, how do you get past the elevators that are on the 5th? Is the shaft wide enough to sneak by? * I suspect that within a minute or two, more police officers were entering the TSBD, so even if the team descended after Baker and Truly looked up the shaft, but before other's stormed the building, they were playing with a very slim margin of time. In fact, I believe there was too little time to make a successful escape via this route. Other than that, I have to say these articles were very interesting, and I'd encourage you and your friend to pursue Hemming in hopes of more information.

Thanks Tim. "In shape" is an understatement; more like they all needed to be a combination of characters such as Ethan Hunt (Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible) and Jason Bourne (Matt Damon in the Bourne identity). Had the TSBD team of assassins decided to use the Elevator shaft to descend, they would have had 40-50 seconds at the most (my personal estimate) after the final shot to gather their equipment, for everyone to descend, get rid of the ropes and vanish from sight before Truly and Baker came hollering up the elevator shaft.... pretty slick action if you ask me. On the other hand when it comes to the JFK assassination, nothing seems to be impossible.

Ok Tim, perhaps not the fire escape, I don't know what method or route they would use to escape, as I've never been in down-town Dallas, and much less the TSBD. The elevator shaft seemed a little unrealistic though. At any rate, I say that according to witness testimony, men were seen fleeing the TSBD building from the side or the back of the building (doesn't rule out using ropes down the elevator well, though). I do find the ropes in the elevator shafts an odd solution (see below, Roy Truly). From the Shaw trial. Mr. Dymond questioning Richard R. Carr. Q: Right after that you saw the Presidential vehicle accelerate. Is that correct? A: Yes. Q: All right. Now, when you saw the Presidential vehicle accelerate, did that attract your attention? A: No, sir, not so much as I turned and looked back, as I told you before, I saw these people come out from behind the School Book Depository and I am going to try to make this clear to you so where you can understand it, from where I was at I could not tell whether they came out this side entrance here, there is a side entrance to the School Book Depository, or whether they came from behind it, but they came either from the side entrance or they came from behind it, and got into this station wagon. Q: Now, how about the rest of the motorcade, did it accelerate along with the Presidential -- A: The crowd crowded in so fast until I could not tell anything about the rest of the motorcade or nothing else, there was a lot of commotion there from then on. Q: Was there a great deal of traffic on Stemmons Freeway at that time? A: Stemmons Freeway is on up here. Q: I am talking about Elm Street going -- A: You said Stemmons Freeway, Elm Street is here, sir. No, sir, there was not much traffic on Elm Street. Q: Not much traffic? A: Elm Street had been blocked off for the motorcade. Q: About how many automobiles were in the motorcade? A: I don't know. Q: Would you say plenty or just one or two? A: Well, at the time this happened, I saw three. Q: You only saw three vehicles, three automobiles in the Presidential motorcade. Is that correct? A: At the time it happened I had only seen three, part of them were on back, had not got to that point yet. Q: Did you ever see any more than these three? A: Sir, I saw no more because I explained to you that the commotion was so great that everybody stopped there, there were a lot of people on the streets, on both sides, there were people up here, spectators, there were people lined everywhere along that route, all over there. Q: Mr. Carr, weren't you interested in looking at this commotion and trying to see what was causing it? A: Was I interested in knowing what was causing it? Q: That is correct. A: I would like to have known, but I could not have got through the crowd to find out it I had to. Q: You had a pretty good spot from which to look, didn't you? A: Yes. Q: Were you looking to try to see what caused it? A: I say were you looking to try to see what went on, what caused it? A: To see what caused the commotion? Q: That's right. A: No, sir, not to see what caused it, I was looking to see what was going on. Q: You were looking where, to see what was going on? A: I was looking to see why all of the commotion down here and why these people were running. Q: And at the same time you were looking up towards the Texas Book Depository seeing three men come out from behind it. Is that right? A: Do you see these dots on this -- Q: Would you answer my question and then explain, please, sir. I say would you answer the question and then explain. A: Yes, I will answer your question, repeat it, please. THE COURT: Mr. Carr, when a question is put to you, you can answer it yes or no, but you have a right to explain your answer so you cannot be cut off, so if you wish to explain the answer, you are permitted by law to do so. (Whereupon, the question was read back by the Reporter.) A: Yes, that's right. BY MR. DYMOND: Q: And also at the same time you were watching the man whom you say you had seen on the Fifth Floor of the Book Depository walk on Houston Street towards Main. Is that right? A: Yes, and I have -- may I explain that? Q: Yes. THE COURT: You may explain. A: The same man that I saw here in this window was with the three men that I told you a minute ago, they came out from behind the School Book Depository, got in the station wagon, one man crossed the street and then came down this side of Houston Street and turned onto Commerce Street. BY MR. DYMOND: Q: And you were watching that procedure at the same time that you were watching what was going on in the grassy knoll area? A: No, sir. Q: And what was going on around the Presidential vehicle and in the motorcade, right? A: No, sir, I was watching that man at that time, and I watched him until I could see him no longer, but that man acted as if he was in a hurry and someone was following him, and I would know that man if I ever saw him again. -------------------------------------------------------- WC testimony, Belin questioning Roy Truly: Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you go up those stairs, instead of running to the back? Mr. TRULY. Those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the back stairway. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. TRULY. So this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the seventh floor. Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the northwest corner? Mr. TRULY. That is right. Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then? Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This elevator over hero Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one? Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth floor. Also, the east elevator-- as far as I can tell--both of them were on the fifth floor at that time.This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a button. Representative FORD. Which elevator is that? Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down. Representative FORD. That is the east elevator? Mr. TRULY. The east elevator? There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for "button." Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I pressed the button and the elevator didn't move. I called upstairs , "Turn loose the elevator." Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call? Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button. Mr. BELIN. What did you call? Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator." Those boys understand that language. Mr. BELIN. What does that mean? Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down. Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that? Mr. TRULY. Two times. Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button? Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice I believe, and called up for the elevator twice. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? First of all, did the elevator come down? Mr. TRULY. It did not. Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do? Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway. Mr. BELIN. Could you again follow--from Point B, could you show which way you went? All right. Mr. TRULY. What is this here? Mr. BELIN. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here? Mr. TRULY. That is right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Based on Carr's testimony several men were seen feeing the building (back or side, not front = main entrance). Based on Truly, I gather than he stuck his head into the shaft and yelled for the elevators to be released, and could see by looking up that they were both on the 5th floor. If the assassination teams had been in the process of climbing down a rope, I think Marrion Baker and Roy Truly would have a different story to tell. Just my view and analysis based on testimony.

Tim, Thanks for posting the articles, very interesting stuff. As a reply to John's question, re new detail revealed: The detail that struck me as having been odd was the detail concerning the escape of the TSBD shooters via the elevator shaft. from post by Tim GratzWouldn't there have been ropes left behind? Once the last of them was down, how do you detach the rope? A more believable escape would have been an escape down the fire escape on the east? side of the building. A few further comments regarding the articles: Evidence supporting Gerry Hemming's information: Mario Tauler Sague (aka Saul Sage), was born in Germany, apparently he is the Mexico City "Oswald". He might be the candidate with German skills at the TSBD. As I recall, someone indicated in a thread on this forum, that Saul Sage was a sharpshooter.

So Oswald bought a 30 dollar pistol, but a 25 dollar rifle... maybe he should have used the pistol instead of the rifle for better accuracy and success in his assassination of the President. Perhaps the different sounding final shot heard by some ear witnesses on 11/22/63 was Oswald firing his revolver from the 6th floor, as a last attempt to try and hit his target. This would also explain why the last two shots sounded as if they were fired almost simultaneously....

Jenner questioning Mr. Hutchinson, store owner in Irving. One item that came up is Lee, cashing a person to person check, worth 189 bucks. Mr. JENNER. Now, using your own words, describe the incident, commencing giving the background. Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, they line up to cash their checks. Mr. JENNER. And you were in the cage? Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I was in the cage. Mr. JENNER. And there were people lined up to cash checks? Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; sometimes 8 to 10 line up--because we have Ling Electric, we have Temco, and we have Chance Vought. We also have General Motors people who live in Irving. And Friday is a big check-cashing day. 334 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh. Mr. HUTCHISON. And I always step into the cage to cash checks and, naturally, I know most people who come in. And this was a two-party check. Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? Mr. HUTCHISON. A two-party check means that it was not a payroll check, but a personal check given to him. Mr. JENNER. All right. Mr. HUTCHISON. And, as best as I can remember, it was $189---which is strictly against our rules to cash. We don't cash any two--party checks over $25. Mr. JENNER. I see. Mr. HUTCHISON. And so I just merely told him, "I'm sorry; I can't cash this check." Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. If I call that a personal check--is that an apt description? You call it a "two-party" check, meaning---- Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. It's drawn by an individual and payable to an individual? Mr. HUTCHISON. Right. That's right. An individual check payable to an individual. Mr. JENNER. As distinguished from a payroll check? Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; as distinguished from a payroll check. Mr. JENNER. And your practice is to limit your risk on that type of check to $25? Mr. HUTCHISON. $25; yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that that check was in the amount of $189. Mr. HUTCHISON. $189; yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. All right. And he finally reached the wicket, or---- Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the cage. Mr. JENNER. He came to the head of the line, eventually? Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Then tell me what happened, as best you can recall. Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, he put the check up there and, of course, that's what everyone does. They put it up there and you look at the check and you observe the check and you either make up your mind whether you're going to cash it or not. But, of course, like I say, with the rule that I have, there never was any doubt in my mind what I was going to do with it. I just handed it back to him. I said, "I'm sorry. This is a two-party check, and we don't cash this amount in a two-party check. Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about that? Mr. HUTCHISON. Not a word. Not a word. He just looked at me and picked up the check and got out of line and walked on out. Mr. JENNER. Did he have any expression on his face that arrested your attention? Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. Do you think he understood what you meant by a "two-party" check? Mr. HUTCHISON. Why, I'm sure he must have because I specifically said to him, "This is a two-party check and our rules and regulations are that we don't cash this large a check---two-party check." Mr. JENNER. He didn't seem irritated? Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. And he accepted your explanation? Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Pat, Thanks for clarifying who B. Marshall was in relation to the assassination material. On another note, the Rydberg drawings are of minimal value to researchers due to the fact that they were drawn based on oral testimony of autopsists, who seemed to be covering up the true occipital parietal head-wound as well as the location of the neck wound, which was actually a back wound, based on photo evidence. Also the photo taken of President Kennedy's back and head, seems to be in direct conflict with what the Parkland medical staff recalled in their statements. I believe if the Kennedy family members knew what most JFK assassination researchers know now, and if they were not under political pressure to not require a new inquiry, they would have released all evidence for the use researchers some time ago. Like you say B. Marshall is just doing what he's been asked to do.