Steve Thomas

Jim, Thank you. That's interesting. We're told that Oswald "became acquainted" with the White Russian Community. It's more specific than that. He established contact with White Russians involved in the petroleum engineering community, and even more specifically with Russian petroleum engineering interests. WC testimony of Peter Paul Gregory: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gregoryp.htm Mr. LIEBELER - You are presently self-employed in Fort Worth, is that correct? Mr. GREGORY - I am presently chairman of the Yates Pool Engineering Committee which is a group of engineers supervising activities in the Yates oilfield in Pecos County, Tex., and I am also a consulting petroleum engineer. WC testimony of George Bouhe: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm Mr. BOUHE - For 9 1/2 years I was employed as a personal accountant of a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want to say it, Lewis W, MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, but I was MacNaughton's personal employee. Take a look at who DeGolyer was. Bouhe, Gregory, DeMohrenschildt, Jack Crichton, Jake Hamon... the list goes on. I'm seeing this nexus of military intelligence, the TEC, Russian petroleum interests, and when you couple that with the question I asked in the Forum about whether Oswald was promised a job when he came back from Russia, and to learn that the early records of his employment with Leslie Welding through the TEC had been destroyed, it becomes pretty suspicious. Steve Thomas

Oswald's passport lists his occupation as a "Shipping Export Agent". I don't find any reference in the Soviet documents (CE 985) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=417&tab=page that he was ever asked by the Soviets, "Exactly what are you going to be importing and exporting Mr. Oswald?" Why? Steve Thomas

WC testimony of Max Clark http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/clark_m.htm Mr. LIEBELER - I want to ask some detailed questions about that but before we get into that, so I don't forget, I want to go back. You said Oswald had told you he had gotten your name from somebody in the Texas Employment Commission - Mr. CLARK - Yes. Mr. LIEBELER - is that your recollection or in fact, did Oswald tell you that be had gotten your name from a man by the name of Peter Gregory at the Fort Worth Public Library? Mr. CLARK - Of course, I had no communication with Oswald at this time. When he talked with my wife over the phone he indicated to her that he had gotten my wife's name and Peter Gregory's name from the employment commission. Now, I could be mistaken but apparently Mr. Gregory and my wife's name were given to him as people that spoke Russian. Of course, we know Mr. Gregory and then after, immediately after this came about, why, my wife - we talked with the Gregorys. Which came first, I do not know. I don't know who saw Oswald first. I believe Mr. Gregory saw them before we did. Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know who it was in the Texas Employment Commission that gave Oswald the name of Peter Gregory and your wife? Mr. CLARK - No. I don't but I can understand fairly well, why. My aunt had been employed by the Texas Employment Commission for 20, 25 years up until her death a few years ago and then my sister still works there. I know it wasn't my aunt because she was dead at the time but my sister, and I have talked with her since, and it was not her and she said it could have been any one of several. I was under the impression she said my wife said that he had said someone by the name of Smith at the employment commission but we don't know anybody by the name of Smith. Mr. LIEBELER - This is the Texas Employment Commission office in Fort Worth, is that correct? Mr. CLARK - Yes. Mr. LIEBELER - is there just one office of the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth? Mr. CLARK - There may be some branches but I don't think so. I think this came out of the main office. Whether he called us or he called the Gregorys first, I don't know. According to Clark, Oswald called Clark via the TEC. WC testimony of George Bouhe: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm Mr. LIEBELER - Did Mr. Gregory tell you how he came to meet Lee Oswald? Mr. BOUHE - Of course. Mr. LIEBELER - Has he told you, in effect, that Oswald came to him at the Fort Worth Public Library and asked him for a letter attesting to his competence as a translator or interpreter of the Russian language? Mr. BOUHE - Mr. Gregory did tell me, and maybe I am not a hundred percent accurate, that he met him at the Fort Worth Public Library where, if my information is correct, Mr. Gregory teaches, I think, a free class of the Russian language. Steve Thomas

Greg, I don't think it's coincidental at all. Dealey Plaza was executed with military precision. There was none of that poisoned cigar, or exploding seashell while scuba diving foolishness. I would be very interesting I think, to learn which of the Brigade 2506 guys got sniper training by the Green Berets at Fort Benning, GA. Steve Thomas

Craig, Thank you. Now what Hosty said, " I could have told them I was forbidden to interview Oswald because he was a contact case." makes more sense. One of the most informative things I've read in a while is CD 852 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11249 DOD Bartimo Letter of 24 Apr 1964 with Attachments Starting on about the third page or so of this document is a copy of Army Regulation 195-10 which spells out how the Army was supposed to liaison with other agencies. It talks about the Army, Navy, Air Force and FBI, but interestingly enough, leaves out the Secret Service. Basically Army Regulation 195-10 is a How to Manual for conducting investigations of armed forces personnel: Who's got responsibility, who's got control, how the information flows, etc. Look at Paragraph (9)(c)(1)(a) on the bottom of Page 5 of this CD. It says how Army Commanders are supposed to establish policies to establish "effective liaison" with other agencies and specifically mentions the ATTU. The idea was not to step on each other's toes, and establish contact with an individual that some other agency was working, e.g. informants. I think in CIA jargon, it was called the “third party” rule. As I sit here, I don't know if the FBI or the ATTU has such a Regulation they were supposed to be operating under. Steve Thomas

Larry, Commission Document 321 - CIA Helms Memo of 25 Jan 1964 with Attachments https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10722&search=Oswald_passport+September%2C+1959#relPageId=14&tab=page p. 14. “After approximately three days in Fort Worth, Oswald left for New Orleans, Louisiana, ostensibly to go to work for an import-export firm for which he had worked briefly prior to enlisting in the Marines on 27 October, 1956.” WC testimony of Max Clark: Mr. CLARK - “... he stated that when he got his discharge from the Marines that he went - I said, "How did you get a visa; how did you get to Russia ?" He said very simple; he just went down, made application to get a visa and what he had to do was to put up so much money for some kind of tour and at the same time when he put up this money for his passage, why, he got his visa stamped and he said he went to Russia, “ Mary Ferrell Chronologies: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40396#relPageId=19&tab=page Oswald tells Max Clark that he wrote to a tourist agency and put up some money for a Russian tour permit. Once he got the permit, he got his passport. September 4, 1959. Oswald applies for a passport. Says that he is in the export business and plans to attend the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10556&relPageId=34&search=%22Passenger_Immigration%20Questionnaire%22 December 3, 1963 FBI interview of Mr. Charles G. Stokes, Passenger Traffic Manager, Lykes Brothers Steamship Company. Stokes made available the original of a “Passenger Immigration Questionnaire” dated September 16, 1959 signed by Oswald. Oswald's occupation on his passport was listed as “Export Shipping Agent.” If he got a tour guide permit in order to get a passport, why did he list “Export Shipping Agent” on his passport? What did he intend to export? People? *smile* You know, it's funny. The impression I get from looking at Oswald's service record and the training he got in the Marines, he was basically an air traffic controller. He never seemed to apply for a job in that field. I guess after a couple of years, he was sick of it. Steve Thomas

Foreign Service Despatch (sic) November 2, 1959 ref" _____ October 31, 1959 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=13&tab=page "Oswald is the bearer of Passport N. 1733242, issued on September 10, 1959... The passport shows that he was born in New Orleans, Louisiana on October 18, 1939 and gives his occupation as "shipping export agent." It's funny nobody seems to have asked what he was supposedly shipping. Steve Thomas

Michael, The answer to your question here might lie in item# 2 on McCord's "Q" clearance file. https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10124-10007.pdf It's not that it wasn't deemed necessary, rather it was so important that it wasn't to be reduced to writing. I read up on the Department of Energy's Q clearance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_clearance What in the world was this guy doing breaking into the Watergate? Steve Thomas

Jim, The only thing I would point out, is that not only records could have been destroyed, Pyle and Robert Jones tell us they were destroyed. Couple that with how little the military provided to the ARRB. For all intents and purposes, they just blew the ARRB off. As to why no one from the military stepped forward with any first hand knowledge, I just don't know. Steve Thomas

Gene, I always figured that the plotters used the local police authorities' egos against them. "The President may have been killed in our town, but we're competent, by God. We got the guy within an hour of the shooting." Steve Thomas

Jim, Nope, you didn't, and nope, I can't; unless you want to drag up the Kirknewton and Eugene Dinkin stuff again, which I really don't. *smile* Steve Thomas

Kirk, I'm sorry. You're right. Claire was her husband. Silly me. Steve Thomas

Craig, I don't know if this will help you in your search but, John Fain's July 3, 1961 Report on Oswald is given Dallas Field Office File# 100-10461 and Bureau File# as 105-82555 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10409&search=Fain_July+3%2C+1961#relPageId=3&tab=page Hosty's September 10, 1963 Report on Oswald is given Dallas Field Office File# 100-10461 and Bureau File # 105-82555 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10412&search=Hosty#relPageId=2&tab=page The 100 designation seems to be a local thing, and the 105 is a national thing. A lot of documents from different agencies were routed to the 105-82555 file. Steve Thomas

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10409&search=Fain#relPageId=4&tab=page Commission Document 8 - FBI Fain Report of 03 Jul 1961 re: Oswald/Russia p. 3 “Mrs. Oswald advised on April 28, 1960, that subject (Lee Harvey Oswald) had been engaged in the export-import type of business at New Orleans, Louisiana after visiting her in Fort Worth, Texas in 1959.” Does anyone have any idea what LHO was supposed to have been, or what he told his mother that he had been, exporting and importing? Steve Thomas

Craig, What got me thinking about it is that Hosty used the word "cases", as in more than one. But, like I said, I'm just guessing. Steve Thomas

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/anna-chennault-formidable-washington-hostess-and-secret-emissary-dies-at-94/2018/04/03/45aa3c12-36c4-11e8-8fd2-49fe3c675a89_story.html?utm_term=.ea1ff9ef1b84 In the weeks before the 1968 election, President Lyndon B. Johnson announced plans to suspend U.S. bombing of North Vietnam as an attempt to jump-start peace talks in Paris. Nixon feared that an agreement to end the Vietnam War could tip the election to the Democratic nominee, Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey. Nixon’s campaign asked Mrs. Chennault to approach South Vietnamese officials with a request to delay or abandon the negotiations in Paris, in an effort to thwart Humphrey. The back-channel meeting was wiretapped by the FBI, and a furious Johnson was listening to Mrs. Chennault’s message. “This is treason,” the president told Senate Minority Leader Everett M. Dirksen (R-Ill.), referring to the apparent efforts to interfere with U.S. diplomacy. At the end of the war, Claire Chennault co-founded an air-cargo company called Civil Air Transport. After his death, the company was purchased by the CIA and renamed Air America, which operated largely without public oversight into the 1970s. Steve Thomas

Craig, I am just going on a hunch, but I think Hosty is referring to case files that start out with 105- For example: FBI Oswald Headquarters File (105-82555) FBI Oswald Mexico City File (105-3702) https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/JFK_Documents_-_FBI.html The main FBI Assassination file is a 62 case number FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060) The anti-Castro case numbers had a 109 case file number FBI Anti-Castro and Cuba-related files in 109 series I don't know enough to know what other 105 cases were out there. Steve Thomas

Craig, If people want to read that interview, they can find it here: http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/nlem/oral-histories/FBI_Hosty_interview.pdf "So that’s where the confusion was. We had the address at Irving. I knew I could find him at Irving. As I say, the Warren Commission in re-writing criticized mefor not finding where he was living and going out and talking to him. I knew where I could find him. I could have interviewed him any time I wanted to but I was forbidden, but that’s, we’ve already gone through that." Steve Thomas

Jim, It is my opinion that the reason that people have focused on the CIA and the FBI over the years is because there is a paper trail to follow. I've found two difficulties in attempting to follow military intelligence links: # 1 is that the Army and other branches of the armed forces underwent a purge of their files in the 1970's. Colonel Robert Jones alluded to this in his testimony before the HSCA. You can read up on Christopher Pyle's January, 1970 article in the Washington Monthly here: http://www.cmhpf.org/Random Files/senator sam ervin.htm "Instead of answering Ervin's concerns, the Army chose to cover up. Robert E. Jordan III, Army General Counsel, froze all responses to congressional inquiries. Agents received orders to gather only "essential elements of information," and not to discuss the CONUS operation with any civilian.[14] Behind the scenes intelligence officers at Fort Holabird removed from the files the embarrassing items to which Pyle had referred in his article.[15] Officers also telephoned agents across the country telling them to hide, but not destroy, any files until the controversy blew over.[16] To organize its response to the crisis, the Pentagon formed a "task group" which met in the "Domestic War Room" deep in the basement of the Pentagon. As one member of that group later recalled: "[We] proceeded from the start to deny any and all charges, factual or otherwise."[17] " "At some bases they destroyed the data but kept the "input" (the computer keypunch cards), or copied the information onto microfilm before destroying it.[20] As one clerk later recalled, "The order didn't say to destroy the information, just destroy the Compendium [a computer data bank]."[21] Typical were the actions of the officers in the 116th Military Intelligence Group at Fort McNair in Washington D.C. who classified all of their files and threatened anyone disclosing anything about their domestic surveillance would be court‑martial or prosecuted in civilian court for violation of national security."[22] " # 2 is the speed and frequency with which military units changed their names, locations, and chains of command. You can be following a particular unit, only to find they don't exist anymore. Their unit was "deactivated", only to be "reactivated" later under a different name or unit number. Their records might be located here, or maybe over there halfway across the country. It's very frustrating. I believe that the Army's domestic intelligence operations dwarfed that of the CIA's, and the FBI's. Read up on Christopher Pyle and Sam Ervin's Hearings on Senate Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights. Here's a couple of examples: https://archive.org/stream/militarysurveill00unit#page/176/mode/2up pp 177+ Statement by Christopher Pyle submitted for the record Military surveillance. Hearings .., Ninety-third Congress, second session, on S. 2318., April 9 and 10, 1974 by United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on the Judiciary. Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights Chaired by Sam Ervin https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal71-1254557 February 24th The genesis of the Army spying stories was a January 1970 story in the Washington Monthly magazine by Pyle. He said the Army got most of its information from state and local police forces and from the FBI. But it also infiltrated groups and meetings and posed as newspaper people to gain information, he said. Intelligence reports were distributed over a nationwide wire service to all U.S. troop commanders, beginning in 1967, according to the ex-GI. He said the Army also published a “blacklist” of profiles on persons intelligence officials thought might “cause trouble for the Army.” He predicted the Army would in the future link its teletype to a computerized data bank, to be installed at the Army Intelligence Command, Fort Holabird, and that federal agencies such as the FBI, Secret Service, State Department Passport Office, Civil Service Commission and others would have access to it. Six months later, in a followup article in the same magazine, Pyle said that despite some reforms by the Army, the situation was pretty much as before. The Army still was infiltrating civilian groups and keeping dossiers on individuals, he maintained. Christopher H. Pyle, attorney and former Army intelligence captain, whose magazine articles disclosed the extent of Army intelligence-collection on civilians: The United States today has the “intelligence apparatus of a police state.” The apparatus is a loose coalition of federal, state, local and military agencies collecting and exchanging information on individuals. The Secretary of the Army saw very little of the intelligence data collected by the Army. The Under Secretary saw much of it, but intelligence reports were “sanitized” by the office of the Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence before they got to the Under Secretary, so they did not appear to have been gathered by the Army. Efforts initiated by the Secretary of the Army and the Army's general counsel to halt the spying have not been successful. The order to stop intelligence-gathering on civilians was ignored or uncommunicated to lower levels. “I've heard of efforts to hide these files” or insert them into other legitimate files. No Pentagon inspection teams ever reached the region level to investigate activities there. Army intelligence officials never told local units the limits of their authority. Volume, production and speed were the collection criteria, not content. To end the program, intelligence officers on lower levels must be controlled. Even though Pyle's emphasis was on military intelligence gathering in the late 1960's, I personally believe it was around for a lot longer than that. Steve Thomas

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Somebody smarter than I am said that once. Stating that no one has stepped forward in 50 years claiming they saw something, is not proof that it didn't happen. Steve Thomas

Rob, I think you're getting to the heart of the matter here. PS: Were certain elements of the CIA among those fronts the "right-wing fascist cabals" were operating through? heh heh Steve Thomas

Jim, You might be interested in looking at these two past threads in the Education Forum: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23289-cia-and-walnut/?tab=comments#comment-339791 http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23111-ofstein-and-oswald/ I think there is a road that flows through the Military Intelligence - TEC - Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. The 507th ASA Group is interesting. Steve Thomas

Jim, One person who is missing from that list (unless her name is included on a following page you didn't include in your post) is Louise Latham. I believe in the possibility of coincidences as much as the next guy, but there are some coincidences that are kind of eerie. In this area, there are several that I can think of: Ofstein and Oswald Oswald and Ofstein were the same age. They were both born in 1939 They both worked at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall They were both referred to JCS by Louise Latham at the Texas Employment Commission Ofstein went through the Monterey School of Language and the possibility exists that Oswald may have as well. Ofstein was in the Army Security Agency, Oswald may have had something to do with the U2 base in Japan Mr. OFSTEIN. I was laid off by Sinclair Refining Co. and I registered with the Texas Employment Commission. Mr. JENNER. Did anybody in particular handle that over there at the Commission? Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall who the person was at the time. Mr. JENNER. A lady or a gentleman? Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm fairly certain it was a young lady and they sent me to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. Mr. JENNER. Does the name Latham--Louise Latham trigger any recollection? Mr. OFSTEIN. The name is familiar--whether she was there or not--I don't know. Mr. JENNER. Is that name familiar in connection with the Texas Employment Commission? Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. Out of the blue, Jenner asks Ofstein if he knew Lousie Latham. John Graef testified before the Warren Commission on March 30, 1964. Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--I'll have to recall as best I can. “In about October 1962, as director of our photographic department we found ourselves in need of another man, so at this time I called the Texas Employment Commission and spoke to them about sending me someone having as close as possible the abilities that might work out in our photographic department.” ”Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what you told her in that connection, as best as you can reconstruct it, giving us her name--it was a her? Mr. GRAEF. “I believe I remember--yes--Louise Latham”. “They have a larger pool to draw from, so I called--in the course of my dealing with them they have various departments and in the course of dealing with them, I became familiar with one person.” “... So, I called this person repeatedly--after the first call or two--this has gone on now over several years and she knew the type person I was looking for and the type of experience that I was looking for, so I called her, and her name was Louise Latham.” Perhaps someone can explain to me why Louise Latham would send someone who has a background in sheet metal work qualifies as a photographer. Steve Thomas

Jeff, You wrote, "Stories of Oswald’s supposed desperate unemployment are linked, in 1962, to efforts to separate Marina from Lee (as were stories of spousal abuse)." That was my thought too, as I was putting that thread together. The narrative of who Lee Harvey Oswald was, that was put together for us in the Warren Report, might not necessarily be the correct one. The idea that the Oswald's were destitute because Lee couldn't find a job is wrong. He had a job. I also hadn't realized up until that point that he was a sheet metal worker. Irrespective of whether he wanted to be a photographer, or work in the import/export business, he was gainfully employed. Marina said that Lee felt the work was beneath him, but that takes a skill set, I know that I don't have. I hadn't known of his interest in the industrial security business. Perhaps he shouldn't have pissed off Max Clark huh? PS: October, 1962 is a very interesting period in Lee Harvey Oswald's life. I can't help but see that time period against the backdrop of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the beginning of his efforts to infiltrate the Cuban exile community. In her Chronologies, Mary Ferrell has the following notes, but these may be based on George Bouhe's WC testimony: October 12, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says “Im fine”. October 15, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says,“I'm fine.” October 16, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe and says, “Im fine.” October 17, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says, “Im fine.” October 18, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says, “I'm fine.” Now, that may be somebody is who is faithful to a certain time, and who is taciturn; but then again, it may be something else entirely. On October 19th the calls stop. Oswald checks out of the YMCA and disappears for two weeks. He is working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, but no one knows where he is living. Not his wife, not his bosses at JCS, not his co-workers, not his acquaintances. Steve Thomas

Jim, Wow. You could do a whole thread on that subject alone. I didn't even know there was an Industrial office and a clerical office. Steve Thomas