Lee Forman

Hey, how are you today... I'm sure there was a larger conspiracy in play at the time, but I'm not so sure Dallas was the result of it. I would favor a small, Walker group initiated hit that involved very few people. Some within DPD. For my money, the death of Officer Tippit , the actual shooting of him, and his movements before and just after the assassination, are an area of research that has barely been scratched. And right now forty four years later, if one has the audacity to say Tippit was the grassy knoll shooter, even those who favor more outlandish theories, will bristle. 'Office Tippit, how dare you?' You can hear people say; 'he was an upstanding police officer.' May be true, but as far as I know, his politics were very far right - Birch Society I believe. He was a really good shot too; both rifle and pistol. And he was put down, if you will, about thirty minutes after the assaassination. I think that whole situation looks suspicious. The police car pulling up to Oswalds rooming house, fifteen minutes or so after the assassination. The records of patrol assignments that day still under wraps by DPD. If I'm not mistaken, Dale Myers was somewhat of a 'shooting of Tippit' expert before he departed to the world of misleading graphic representations. It's another topic but wow, was that graphic animation he did a dissapointment. The fatal head shot wasn't delivered from the second floor TSBD! So back to the Tippit possibilities. It just makes one feel a bit blasphomous to say he was involved, but the whole truth of his movements that day just aren't known; and that is supicious in itself. Hope I don't get too beaten up by raising this topic. The Moorman stuff as I said yesterday was given to me direct, by a high level researcher. He didn't post it here, so I'm not saying his name, No big deal really. His standing and credentials are first rate. Yeah, allowing someone to ask the questions and frame the discussion, truly a problem. I've asked many, including you, certainly Jack White, and I mentioned it in my paper. How does one alter a film and have those alterations escape close scutiny? Let me go off on a tangent and give you a bizarre example. I don't know if you are old enough to remember this guy, I remember what he did but not his name. He was a European guy who went around in the early seventies saying he had films of UFOs. Not only films, but he could also conjure up a UFO. I'll give you a minute to stop laughing. This will help. He sold some of the films for huge money. A Japanese TV station gave him something like $250,000 for a showing. Notice I didn't say copy. He never gave out copies back then. They became available in the nineties, I believe. Some of his later works are pretty believable, a hovering disk, against a mountainous backdrop, that arcs into the distance and then disappears, not bad. His earlier stuff was interesting. Watching a couple of them now it looks like he took a bumble bee or maybe even house fly and wrapped it up in something like paper mache'; where the bug could still fly but was enclosed in a little colored disk. The hovering motion against say, a city skyline was again very believable, but the hovering, upon repeated viewing, was very insectlike. Key word - repeated. This guy never let people have repeated viewings. He only showed his stuff on TV stations and then kept it under wraps. And he never let anyone else examine his films. So he scammed the world, and disappeared back to Norway or wherever. You know what he never anticapated? That his stuff would be marketed and available down at the local video store. He probably never anticapated any such thing as a local video store. Know what you see when you frame advance through his footage? How about glue drips? Obvious tape (as in adhesive/splicing) splices. Fingerprints! The guys hoax became easily evident when one got those films in hand. My point? At play speed his stuff was believable; upon close examionation, not even close. As I said in my paper, in communications with other researchers, and on this board; how does one alter a film and keep the changes hidden when that film is closely examined? Dubbing down is not the answer. If Zapruder has had frames taken out , added in, spray of blood reduced, bystanders inserted etc. etc.; they did all this and wound up with a seamless final copy? And none, not one, of the changes could be seen on close examination? And I don't mean a blue (developing) wash at the edges, that is just a result of a new copy. I mean something like the edge(s) of an in-frame insert. Or removed frames that don't disrupt the backround and continuity of motion? I'll say it again - at play speed, you get away with it. (Believe me, I'm an editor!) Upon close examination, easily seen. I have myself looked for kinks in Zapruder. There is testimony from eyewitnesses that would indicate the fatal head shot actually occurred later, further down the street. I remember a few years back, hurrrying to work to take a look at the limousine behind the freeway sign, anticapating seeing a spot where a cut could be made and the following seconds "backed up" if you will. This would also involve a horizontal spice. Not easy, but with the right gear you can do it. Guess what? The limo never fully disappears behind the freeway sign. You can always see one end or the other of it. Nix that idea. The master alterationists would never have a frame to "get in on". Hence, no go on that one. Point out what you think is a change in Zapruder. I'll check it out. Remember, I'm an eyes only guy. Measurement, photogeommentry, mathematics, that stuff always relates back to what we are seeing. Evidence siezed, and photos and films being a part of that? 100% agreement here. And first and foremost as well. An old collegue of mine was in Dallas that day, with WFAA. They got word to go to the hospital. They arrrived in time to get a shot of JFK being brought in on a stretcher. They tried to hide the reel from Secret Service. It didn't work, Secret Service said "ALL you reels, let's have 'em"! Gotta run now. Fill me in on the references to a gorier version. I've only vaguely heard that one. All the best Frank Frank - man I have to say I really think you have the makings of someone who will produce something really significant. Keep the mind open and keep reading. As opposed to books - I would heartily recommend reading through postings made here on this forum. I can find the reference to the gory version - need to dig for it. In the meanwhile, and I truly mean no offense, here's something to consider. The very flat white object that appears on the grass is there when we see the 'cone' simultaneously shooting up into space. It can't be related - there's no time. We are dealing with 18fps here - no matter what I may say about the film or anyone else. Even if frames were removed, as I believe they were - to create one single headshot out of two, and to cover the horrific result of - sorry words can't express - wish I could turn to fouler language here - the stain that History should have recorded on the SS with respect to the major screw-up on Greer's part with him braking the limo and turning to look at Kennedy. Even with an earlier shot to the rear within 9 frames earlier than z313, that's half a second. Anyway - last post on this thread for me [aside from the Gory comment - which I need to find], but I hope you will continue working on some other stuff aside from this theory. Feel free to contact me anytime if I can be of assistance. BTW - here's 2 CIA Time Life scans I did for you. The shiny area at Altgens left foot is interesting. On Tippit - he was nowhere near DP at the time. I have no respect for Dale Myers, so I will not comment further. Keep up the good work and keep on digging. - lee

Hey Frank. My view is of a large conspiracy - I don't see that changing any time soon. It had to do with different reasons on the cover-up, and different groups being involved in the operation. On Moorman - well I don't know her to ask her. If I did, I would present her with the close-up views of what looks like the backing from a Polaroid photo first, and then ask. One exasperating issue with JFK research - allowing someone else to ask the questions. As to the 'evidence' - yes, I believe it was seized and controlled - like everything else. I don't see why photos and films would be exempt when nothing else was [and there is established precedence with the altered backyard photos], but then again, I rejected offers to buy the Brooklyn Bridge when I was only a kid, so maybe it's genetic. As to alteration of the z-film - it's enough for me to learn about the one reference to the 'gorier' version of the film to recognize something is suspect. Back to your thread - CIA Life version of the frame. - lee

Hi Bernice - I reviewed the frames again - I don't believe that this isn't a fair analysis. It seems clear that frames are missing - at a minimum between z312 and z313. So the movement of the film here jerks forward some one foot or so for the background. The paper backing doesn't 'appear' suddenly, it is jerked into our view. Using Moorman as my reference point. - lee ************ Lee: Now we meet again, at missing frames... I have been studying this particular gif...and I believe I am seeing what could be a " now you do Not see it, then a sudden Now you do."...? In reference to the backing.... ....Have a look at the distance all appears to move between these two frames...# 312 & 313....and the suddeness of it.......the head shot also appears what, painted in.?? or is it moi..? .....I know little of film cameras, except for what I have tried to comprehend, through the studies so my marginal knowledge is not reliable.... Perhaps you understand their workings more fully.... or someone who does, could give us a grain from their brain.... .David perhaps?..Jack ???.. Thanks........B Hi Bernice - that graphic I created demonstrates how the background moves. Hence the distance in the background jumps about one foot at a time when you approach z313. The reason for this could be explained as panning, or Zap jiggling, but the Lincoln remains in relatively the same position. So the point I was looking to make was that an object on the grass, where what I believe is the backing from one of Moorman's polaroid photos appears, would suddenly jump into the frame, because the background is suddenly jerking along into view one foot at a time. If you examine the earlier frames, using Moorman herself as the reference point, you can see that the background was advancing inches at a time, prior to the frames leading up to z313. That's the same very basic approach I used to demonstrate missing frames from the Towner film, when it was argued that the film captured 'the entire turn' on to Elm. Again, using all of the information available, it still appears to me that 2 shots to Kennedy's head were combined into one here - mainly be removing frames. There may have also been a strong motivation by the Secret Service to remove the stop seen by numerous witnesses and by individuals that say that they have seen the 'other' film(s), which demonstrated either complicity or incredible incompetence and culpability - a total breakdown and failure of everything that they were trained to do - magnified in only a few frames. And those that have seen the other films [that I have had the opportunity to enquire of] indicated that there was a halt to the Lincoln, that the shot from the rear preceded the shot from the front, and that there was more distance in between the 2 shots than is evident today in the z-film. - lee

Roberdeau's map is a masterwork. Not just for the geography but the timeline as well. It may be the most usefull single page in all of the available research. Let me talk overall about the ideas you posted today Lee. Again very helpful. It is really baffling as to why Harper wasn't discovered earlier. Perhaps hidden in the crevice between curb and lawn? And then somehow moved later? Moved inadvertently, by someone stepping on it and then walking, then it drops off their shoe. Wow, that seems impossible. Handled by a child, and then dropped, maybe on command of a parent who didn't know what it was. Don't know about that either; have never seen (photos of) children in the center median area post assassination. You're kind of taking a vast conspiracy tack on this and I think there would be the serious question of why move it? Why not just pocket it? How would relocating it indicate shots from the TSBD? Atgens said fragments landed at this feet, but if my memory serves me they were small ones. Harry Holmes is someone I just found out about, and I believe is a newer character on the scene, if you will. He's fishy as hell too. About as fishy as Ruth Paine, who I would count as at least a bad actress, in interviews I've seen with her, it's almost like she's pretending to not be as smart as she is; which seems pretty smart. She also hints that she bareley knew Oswald; yeah, right, that's why he called her (not Marina!) after his arrest. Off topic here, let's go back. Keep in mind that I think Harper is flying and spinning through the air. And I think spinning pretty vigorously. I seriously entertain the idea that the fragment glanced off Hargis' windscreen. Check the frames (333 -337 I think), a real good change of direction comes in there right as it passes Hargis' screen. So it's spinning. And hits the ground. And takes off rolling. Further into the center meridian, and away from where the crowd of investigators and suedo investigators that will gather later. Keep in mind the sun is low in the sky in late November , and though sundown may be 5Pm or so, visibility drops pretty rapidly after 4:15 of so. That doesn't leave a whole lot of time, roughly two hours, for whatever that crowd was doing out there. So to crystalize my scenario a bit. 313 is a shot from the north portico area. Maybe TSBD west side, lower floor, maybe first floor. Frangible hits President; sending top of his head flying and spinning, possibly Harper, with exact part of the skull it came from still in question to this day; we only have a few photos. Spins, hovers, helicopters, whatever you want to call it, over the limosine; reflected in trunk lid; glances off Hargis' windscreen; hits lawn and takes off rolling at a decent clip and winds up away from the area examined that afternoon. If it flies, spins, lands, and then rolls a good distance away; are we still in the realm of physical impossibility? Hey c'mon it's not "only' in Dallas in '63, that one can destroy evidence - it's been going on wholesale ever since!! Thanks for your help on this Lee. Frank Hi Frank - yes, lot's to think about. "There was just pieces of skull and bone and corruption all over the place." The concept requires too much of a leap of faith for me. It would have been easier to simply return to the scene like Harry Olsen did and simply plant it to correspond with a TSBD 6th West window shot. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...4&hl=harper - lee

Precisely Robin - this is why I have always had a problem with it. If it's a piece of the skull from the rear, how does it travel forward like that, and in such a large section. How does it escape notice. Wouldn't it practically slice through the young couple standing there. How could Harper have been so far off when he showed Roberdeau where he found it. Why is it that we can draw a line back from this location through where Roberdeau has located Kennedy at the time of the headshot and it takes us coincidentally back to the TSBD [albeit the east side]. If the fragment indeed had the indication of a point of entry, it's possible that it could have weakened the skull and provided the path of least resistance for a shot from the front to simply blow out the section of the head - but the fragment itself [if you use a trajectory from the GKS location behind the fence] would have travelled back and ended up where Roberdeau has the Brehm fragment [sketchy on details] marked - or the large piece found in the Lincoln. http://www.manuscriptservice.com/DPQ/fragme~1.htm - lee

Hi Bernice - I reviewed the frames again - I don't believe that this isn't a fair analysis. It seems clear that frames are missing - at a minimum between z312 and z313. So the movement of the film here jerks forward some one foot or so for the background. The paper backing doesn't 'appear' suddenly, it is jerked into our view. Using Moorman as my reference point. - lee

As per Gary Mack. I plan to go back to MIDP and reread the section in question. I had not heard about a gun having been seen in a car in the South Knoll parking lot. We should look to revive one of these threads... South Knoll; Ballistics, Shot Trajectories Steping out of line with the South Knoll South knoll shooter in Cancellare? One reason that the South Knoll is a focus at all is based upon the claim made by Tosh Plumlee that a round whizzed over his head, and that he was in Dealey Plaza and on the south side at the time of the motorcade's passing. It's not my intention to bash Tosh, but among other things, he related that he had passed the 'man' at the pick-up, who yelled something after him. He failed to mention that there were 2 individuals here, plus a driver - as per this thread. I have not been able to locate Tosh in any of the photos - that doesn't mean he wasn't there - however the recent faking of his own death weakens his credibility in my very firm opinion. Another reason that the South Knoll is considered is based upon a theory that the shot through the throat was taken through the windshield [and glass fragments that may have caused the wound to the throat, or smaller wounds in the face that had to be plugged during embalming]. Al Carrier maintained that it is possible - and I agree -- So is surviving a jump from an airplane without a parachute - possible. The examples he provided showed holes the size of golf balls with considerable splintering. I still am very reluctant to accept this theory. As per the post I made someplace before, WerBell's training camp provided the technique for a shot through the windshield - it was taken at point blank range and at an angle to the glass. I can't see any professional attempting a shot from 100+ yards through a windshield on 11/22/63. There would be the risk of a deflection, the target could have appeared distorted due to the glass, there would be a possible reflection, etc. Plus wouldn't one assume that it was bulletproof if they didn't know otherwise? Efforts to demonstrate a 'spiral hole' in the windshield - both in the Altgens and the Zapruder, are piss poor IMO. The through-and-through hole through the windshield seen by witnesses was in all likelihood the result of a shot that came from behind the Lincoln - much like the dent to the chrome. The big question that needs to be answered is: Was there an opening for to the sewers in this south knoll / top of underpass location or not? - lee

What would be helpful here would be if Don Roberdeau could weigh-in with a response as to the account provided to him by Harper when he fixed the location for the discovery of the fragment where he did. As I have noted before, a fragment of the size 'discovered' by Harper and not recovered by the many spectators and by-standers in the area - where we see it on Don's plat, suggests a plant that evening for additional circumstantial evidence pointing towards a 6th floor east window TSBD shot and nothing more. If it's a piece of the occiput, as has been suggested by multiple experts, it is a physical impossibility and phenomenon against all possible laws of physics that it would have been found where Harper suggested to Roberdeau. If it had been found closer to Altgens location then it begs the question - seriously begs, as to how it was possible that it went uncovered on 11/22 when Harry Holmes was disposing of his various pieces of 'corruption.' But it's only in Dallas in 1963 that you can destroy crucial crime scene evidence involving the assassination of a President and act like you did nothing wrong, and no consequences of any kind follow.

2004 - obscured view from Electrical service at top of underpass on south side of Dealey Plaza. If I follow MIDP, then this was the location of the storm grate which would correspond with it's twin on the north side and communicate eventually to Trinity River. I would very much like to fix this location - too bad I didn't do a better job with the photos - I know I have video, just no easy way to transfer. What is required here is a separate thread and study of the South knoll IMO. - lee

Phenomenal Robin. Is the area where the storm drain used to be located at the area where the picket fence begins? In front of the blue car in the lot? The South Knoll drain does not appear on Roberdeau's plat either. Bernice - that's a much better doorway enhancement - Chris does nice work. Thanks. One can't help but wonder what a true scan of the original frames may yield as a possible improvement there. Maybe that's an Imperial Reflex camera at work there. - lee

Bernice, Here's the close-up of the doorway again. Logic would say that if you were an avid photographer, and the President, whom you like, just happened to be driving by your building, that you would take a picture. But that's logic. - lee

Hello Lee; Frank Caramelli here. Just got accepted to the forum after a few weeks(!) of website problems. I have yet to post on the forum so I thought I'd try an individual response first. I picked you because you are one of the responders that addressed specifically my finding. Here goes. Wow, if I had a nickle for every Bothun or Cancellieri I've been emailed in the last few months - I'd have a least 45 cents by now. Yes of course I have seen these photographs, and have some opinions. The object in Bothun appears a bit further east than the divit in the lawn, plus we can't forget that a parade just went by and winds were gusting to almost 20 mph, I believe. A piece of paper wouldn't be out of the ordinary. But more importantly, the object in Bothun and Cancellieri looks as much like a skull fragment as a piece of paper. If you refer to Zapruder, and assume the white spot is a piece of paper or Moormans poloroid backing - doesn't that make it a bit too large? Six or eight feet from the curb, more than forty feet from Zapruder (correct me if I'm wrong) that "polaroid backing" would seem to be about ten inches across. But move it closer, as in flying across the limo, and it 's size comes down to, well, about the size of Harper's fragment. You also made the observation that you didn't think it lined up too well with the trunk lid. It's a good commment but I wholeheartedly disagree. If you can "page through" the motion of frames 326, 327, 328, 329, 330, the spot/fragment and it's reflection lines up perfectly. That is one thing that stuck out for me when I first noticed this. The angle of the reflection is also very congruent with the reflection of the first ladies arm a second or so later; I believe the frame I cited was 371. The motion of the fragment in the reflection is, in my opinion, extremley accurate. JFK Murder Solved.com has a good version of Zapruder that you can page through frame by frame. Another thought on Moormans polaroid backing. Hmmm... littering when the POTUS is about to drive down the street. Would you? That "backing" in frame 312 looks to be about twenty feet to Mary's left. the wind was blowing to her right. One thought on the wind - it seems to have settled at the time of the shooting. The flags on the limo seem to be waving because of the motion of the car and maybe just a little added wind. Hard to tell. As far as your comment that somebody would have noticed the fragment lying there; well Harper remained in the plaza all night. I think that is one very enduring mystery, one that will probably never be figured out. And that dovetails with how far Harper was found from the impact at 313. Dealey was littered with skull fragments. Altgens said some landed at this feet. Clint Hill said some slid off the limo and onto the street. Dallas PD made statements that some were thrown in the trash. Then there's the photo of the mystery man digging in the lawn (watched by a Dallas PD officer) shortly after the assassination - no telling what this guy pocketed. So, thank you Lee for the constructive comments. I continue to research this aspect of the assassination; and hopefully I will soon be adding some new eyewitness quotes and corroboration from other films. One last thing. I'm not trying to establish a "theory". Theories are more complex and more involving of conjecture than what I'm getting at - which is an observation. I want people to look at the frames of the film and tell me what they see. I see something reflected in the trunk lid. As I said several times in my paper - if it's reflected in the trunk lid it can't be on the lawn. Can a mirror on a wall reflect the wall it's hanging on? Thanks for your time Frank No worries Frank and welcome to the Forum. I like the way your thought processes work. As to littering - there was a strong wind blowing that day. Each Polaroid shot taken by Moorman would have had the backing involved, plus the wiping required. Letting one get away from you when you are busy, or suddenly fixed with the prospect that the President is about to roll by - not too far to leap. Plus some people just don't care at all, as evidenced by the Native American on the horse commercials. More than one photo of folks digging about on the lawn and pocketing stuff. I had never heard before that Harper remained in the plaza all night - I find that very odd. Did he see the individuals with the crane chased off by the cops - as remarked by David Lifton? I find that hard to believe that he stayed there all night - however, there is still the disconnect with respect to where Roberdeau was told by Harper that the fragment was discovered by Harper and where you are locating the fragment. Take a look at the Cancellare crops - you can see that the white backing remains in the aftermath photos. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=129169 - lee

Thanks Jack!!!! Even more interesting. - lee

Not a dumb question at all Gene. SOB man was an unidentified individual carrying a placard that said 'SOB Kennedy.' He has also be referred to as 'Gin and Tonic Man' - which isn't really funny if you look at the z-film and see why. Where's the sign in the z-frame? And how come we don't know SOB's ID, along with the young couple standing near him, or the young man standing opposite on the stairs? This guy would be in a perfect location to be providing a signal to the folks behind the fence. Robin's crop from the Cancellare at left, and the one frame of SOB that wasn't blurry from a high quality z-frame. - lee

"I do agree that had the conspirators decided to use the car bomb" Not unlike "BadgeMan"/"SewerdrainMan"/"Dal-TexMan"/"GrassyknollMan"/ "Greer Did It"/etc; etc; etc;, I have no doubts that the COBS (Crock of Bull Sh**) "Car Bomb" will soon take on a life of it's own and become another of those "facts" which has no basis or foundation in fact. Even though the logic against such an event, in conjunction with a shooting assassination event, is quite beyond the realm of rational thinking. Wanna bet against that I can find some who will actually believe that Space Aliens & UFO's had something to do with the assassination? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_Gets_in_Your_Eyes Better than saying "BS Gets in Your eyes" "will soon take on a life of it's own and become another of those "facts" which has no basis or foundation in fact." If by this you mean it cannot be fact unless it was captured in one of the 26 volumes of the Warren Report - then I concur. If by 'fact' you mean something documented by an official party - I concur again. For example, it is fact that Lee Vida Whatley's son Jim claimed that his Mother angrily discovered a car parked in the reserved Sherriff's parking space that she had special permission to use - behind the picket fence and pergola structure. It is fact as Jim related the story - that the men would not reply to her demands, and that there was another unknown vehicle parked next to it, and that these men were taking long packages from the trunk wrapped in brown paper - and that she wrote down the license plate number of the vehicle and gave it to Roy Truly - but we have only Jim's word to go by - so do we discredit the account? Roy Truly never mentioned a damned thing about it - does this mean it didn't happen? Roy Hargraves related that he was part of the Dallas operation, and there is sufficient other bits and pieces of information to support this. Roy Hargraves speciality was in demolition. Why would Roy be there? Would you deny that Roy was an operative working under Vidal Santiago? Isn't this a fact? Slack Tom. You're still calling it fact that Oswald was in the window on the east side of the TSBD on the 6th floor - yet there isn't one single 'fact' of any kind to support that as true - nothing at all. - lee

And I believe him, FWIW. - lee

Awesome Robin. I plan to take a closer look and play around with that crop. Is it just me, or does Pick-up Man [white shirt at rear] have a hat on? Very interesting. Thanks for SOB man - that's a keeper. - lee

Not a clue James - but maybe someone else can chime in. I do have some photographic material of this vicinity someplace, but it's practically worthless due to the build-up of the vegetation in that area today - note Satellite image and bend to overpass in this area - which would have made this area - like it's mirror image on the opposite side, a nice blind from anyone stationed on top of the underpass at the time of the shooting. I also recall Jim Marrs pitching in here once-upon-a-midnight-dreary with respect to a rifle being pulled out of the pipes when the construction went on - however he was not clear on which side - and of course there's nothing documented on it - these pipes are now 16" in diameter on the north side, and I owe it to Bernice for straightening me out on the fact that they were much wider in 1963 - and did in fact lead all the way to an opening on the Trinity. I think I have a photo someplace of the electrical service box that's here now on the south side. If its true that the service exists today where the grate used to exist, then it's a good marker and can be used to plot the location. - lee

Thanks Gene. To be honest, I once postulated a theory someplace that the individuals seen at the truckbed were the same that were witnessed by Mercer - because of what I see to be a tassled cap on the younger looking individual's head - but it's a tough sell. The original truck that Mercer saw [Air Conditioning on the side] was removed from the location by another truck, so no matches there - plus I interpolated the side of this truck for any detail with regards to writing and found none. The question on the tassled hat remains. - lee

No cares on any possible diversion James - if you followed the thread you'd see I was looking at lens caps on the grass and whatnot. A bit boring. Here's the area I believe has been referenced - in Murder in Dealey Plaza, etc. There was supposed to be a similar grate / drain structure located around this area, as the one on the opposite side. This was changed and some kind of electrical switch box was positioned here since. Note the proximity to the folks at the pick-up, and that back parking lot which went totally uncovered by the record. - lee

Answer - no. Have a look - none of these people have been identified, or provided available documented info. Don Roberdeau has the black looking individual on his plat as F Lee Mudd for reasons unknown. F Lee Mudd was a business owner from Shreveport, LA, up on a Dallas visit to purchase clothing for his store and decided to watch the motorcade. I sort of doubt that this is he. Ignore the inset - after examining a lot of high res and good quality Croft photos [thanks Alan Healy, Robin Unger and others], came to the conclusion that there was no one behind the wall in that location [5 & 6]. Still gives you the idea of the problem. Some 20 eye witnesses with the best seat in the house - and no one ever managed to get their accounts or learn who they were... Mark Oakes may know more - if anyone has contact info for him, let me know - I'd really like to ask him. You can also examine Don's plat - a very useful and powerful dynamic tool for such research purposes. http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg - lee

One more time for the halibut. Moorman drumscan crops - added some midtones, then enhanced a bit more. If no one else can see them it's not my problem. I did confirm for myself using high res scan taken from 'Four Dark Days' and other higher resolution Moorman repros. I'm satisfied - and was amused when the CBS or ABC special avoided the area completely. What a joke. Left to right: Man in cop's hat - appears to be in the act of firing a smoky weapon. Man on radio looking directly at us. Man in hat, with distortion, possibly caused by the reflection of a lens. Nothing says conspiracy for me like this area of the Moorman - a high resolution and quality Moorman, I will add. - lee

The remark that it is a shadow on the ground from the tree was the correct one. Hey Bill. For which? In this photo, I see a driver, then what appears to be a young man in a dark jacket or shirt with a hat, standing next to a hatless, older and larger man in a white shirt. That's all I have even seen since I scanned the 1963 B&W Cancellare print. Leaving out the driver and focusing only on these 2 individuals. Whether anyone is in the bed? Not my concern or issue. - lee

Awesome. Thanks for that John - new info which I hadn't seen before. I may still have er--hang on...no, don't have it any longer. It may have been Detective Magazine. A great article on the history of assassination attempts and successes. All making the SS to be the toughest men ever, provided with routine and rigorous training, adept at shooting, reflexes like a cat, heroic men, blah blah blah. The article went on to sympathize with them and completely let them off the hook, since there is just no protection against the lone nut sniper. Wonder if any of it was taken from that Reader's Digest article. Darn, wish I could pull that one out I had - it got your blood boiling in under 30 seconds with the hypocrisy. To Tim's point - I'm inclined to agree. Prouty spouted off a bunch of stuff and I'm sure a lot of it is valid - but if you watch the Kennedy funeral procession, just as an example, there was ample opportunity to wipe out the entire Kennedy family, since they paraded past an office building or something under construction - every floor was totally open and packed with bystanders. Talk about a security nightmare - I guess you could assume that they checked everyone for a weapon beforehand, but there would have been a lot of foreign dignitaries that could have been targets as well, like DeGaulle and the Lion of Judah. Clearly the job done in Dallas was the absolute worst ever - especially with the selection of the route and the confusion about how the hairpin turn came to be selected, etc. I just don't know that it was really protocol to try to do something about every open window - I think the jury is still out on that one for me. - lee

Hi Tim - the Lem Johns story could cover part of the SS credentials, in addition to the Forrest Sorrels deputization bit, which I have read about elsewhere - however, so far as I know, the latter is hearsay - as is the story about someone lifting the ID. I agree with your take on it, save for the addition of the boozing - one agent reportedly left the Cellar at 5:00am, but then reported for duty in the morning. I don't believe it is known which agent this was...