Denny Zartman
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Posts posted by Denny Zartman
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@W. Niederhut makes a good point, imho. The people funding RFK Jr, as well as those pitching him on this forum, are doing so with the hopes that he will be a spoiler in the current election. It's not about revealing the truth of the JFK assassination.
Ventura is a good man, but he's retired.
Now, let's get real: no serious candidate would consider Aaron Rodgers or Mike Rowe. At least for Ventura, it wouldn't be his entry level job in politics. But Rodgers or Rowe... forget about it.
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28 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:
Speaking of Roscoe White and "Badgeman," I was recently re-reading the chapter on Lee Bowers in Hit List.
Bowers claimed--prior to his untimely death--that he was afraid to tell people everything he had witnessed in the parking lot behind the Grassy Knoll on 11/22/63.
If true, what, on earth, would have frightened him?
Is it possible that Bowers saw a man in a police uniform shooting at JFK?
Ed Hoffman says he saw four men moving behind the fence: a yardman, a man in a business suit, a man in a plaid shirt, and a uniformed police officer.
In a 2003 interview, Bobby Hargis seemed to confirm that he encountered Roscoe White on the grassy knoll moments after the assassination.
Transcript from 7:41 - 8:42
BROWNLOW: Now Hargar, let's clear up one thing real quickly: When you got up to the grassy knoll, up by the little retainer wall, and you looked over…
HARGIS: Mmm hmm.
BROWNLOW: …and you said you saw some people. Now, as the years have went by Officer Hargis, especially since 1974, a man who I knew - as you, being a police officer. I met him in s… I met him the year he was… died. Some people say he was killed or murdered. I don't know. Roscoe White was a Dallas police officer. You knew him, right?
HARGIS: Yes. Uh, huh.
BROWNLOW: And you know all these years these books have been written by many researchers, they have claimed there was a man behind the fence they call the Badgeman on the grassy knoll.
HARGIS: No.
BROWNLOW: And they said he shot the president. And a lot of them say it was Roscoe White. Now, Officer Hargis, being one of the few people to know that Roscoe White was on the grassy knoll - when you saw him, what was he doing?
HARGIS: Roscoe White was doing like I was doing, looking for someone who (unclear) the shot. He couldn't tell just like I couldn't…
BROWNLOW: That's right.
HARGIS: …where the shot was coming from.
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2 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:
I'm reading 'A.A.' at present. Always been agnostic on 'Badgeman' & Roscoe White. However, co-authors J. Gary Shaw & Brian Edwards are sound investigators. The book points to White being part of an ONI assassination team, his code name Mandarin on three cables sent by a 'C. Bowers' with acronym 'OSHA', interpreted as Office of Special Handling Assignments. With each message indicating 'RE-rifle'. Up to a point, (I'm only half way through the book) it is an interesting story, although not completely sold on the Tippit claims.
Interested to hear from Denny or others who have read Admitted Assassin for their thoughts.
I'm also halfway through the book now, and I'm working on an updated version of this thread that I'll try to post soon.
Admitted Assassin is a good book that seems honestly and carefully written. The reproduction of the "scrapbook" is quite interesting.
I'm not sure this forum has ever discussed the radio equipment and large antenna discovered near Van Horn, a town in far west Texas that Roscoe had visited at least once in 1961 and reportedly took his family there just prior to the JFKA. Admitted Assassin also has a new detail I hadn't heard about Van Horn: along with the radio equipment, it seems approximately 2,000 empty rifle casings measuring 6.5mm were also found.
Admitted Assassin also seems to reveal for the first time a connection between Roscoe White and the Fort Worth based Special Agent for the Office of Naval Intelligence, John Mason Lankford. Lankford reportedly took part in security both before and after JFK's assassination.
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Oswald in the depository with a rifle?
More like Rodgers in the backfield with the shotgun!
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Thanks for posting this here @Bill Simpich . You do good work, and I appreciate it.
- I would suggest calling Into The Nightmare a "2013 book" instead of a "new book."
- There's a newspaper article "Was Oswald In The Window" by Earl Golz, Dallas Morning News, November 26, 1978, where Carolyn Johnston (Carolyn Arnold in 1963) indicates to Golz that she saw Oswald in the second floor lunchroom at 12:25 pm as she was on her way out of the building to watch the motorcade. In the article, she challenges several aspects of the FBI's report on her interview.
- I would also suggest maybe being a little clearer on the three wallets, such as also writing where they were found, along with description of the color and the evidence numbers. I'm not sure if you mentioned that the wallet found at the Paine residence had $170 in it. (I personally find that significant because it accentuates the improbability that a guilty lone assassin with that much money wouldn't somehow be able to facilitate a successful escape. This is the same person who, according to the official story, recently made it to Mexico and back using only public transportation.)
- I don't think you mentioned that the rifle was initially misidentified. I personally find it completely unbelievable that the first investigators misidentified the rifle on the sixth floor as a 7.65 Mauser. It appears that the words and numbers "MADE ITALY" and "CAL 6.5" were etched into the metal on the Mannlicher Carcano, as testified to by attorney Mark Lane. How could it be possibly ever be misidentified as a 7.65 Mauser by anyone with the ability to read, especially if Mausers of the era also had identifying information etched onto them?
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He planned the assassination for months, but forgot that he could buy guns for cash and not leave a paper trail.
And for all that planning of his, someone else just happened to find him a job in a tall building along the motorcade route. Lucky for him.
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Planning the assassination: weeks & months
Planning his getaway: not one single second
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Makes total sense!
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31 minutes ago, Robert Montenegro said:
LBJ was a whore to the war-machine, but was not in control, by any stretch of the imagination...
LBJ started controlling the flow of information regarding whether or not it was a large scale international conspiracy and what could be revealed the very second he was told he had become the president of the United States.
When investigating a crime usually investigators ask themselves first: Cui Bono, who benefits?
As I see it, no single individual on the planet benefited more or quicker from the assassination of JFK than LBJ.
If LBJ was not in control or could not usefully control the investigation, then the conspirators got very, very lucky that the new president could be counted on to assist them 100% in getting away with murdering the previous president.
It's not unreasonable to believe the conspirators did not rely on luck and chance to complete their objective.
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1 hour ago, Jamey Flanagan said:
The hair on Mailbox Man kinda makes me think of the JD Tippit "Elvis" photo. How he has his hair in that picture. You know which one I'm referring to? I wouldn't think it could be him however.
Are you referring to picture #6 at the bottom right, here?
From what I understand, that picture was taken when he was younger, and pictures 3 and 5 are more representative of what he looked like at the time of his death.
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@Robert Reeves Wow. I've never seen that picture of the tall tramp's ankle. Thank you for posting it.
I've worn lav mic's before with the transmitter on my ankle many times. While you are right and there's a small possibility it could be a strangely-shaped bottle of liquor, in my opinion it's almost certainly a transmitter and antenna. (I also believe Dark Complexioned Man had a walkie talkie.)
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On 2/29/2024 at 10:33 AM, Sandy Larsen said:
Hey Denny,
Here's a thought.
Suppose that the assassination plot was designed by the CIA. (This is what I believe.) And the goal of the plot was to create a pretext for invasion of Cuba or war with Russia... two things that the Generals wanted at the time.
Suppose also that thee plan did NOT call for making it look like Oswald was the lone killer. So, for instance, the Feds wouldn't have taken JFK's body by force. Rather, the autopsy would have been performed by Dallas doctors.
There are two possible ways the Johnson Administration would have proceeded after the assassination. They could have taken advantage of the pretext and attacked Cuba or Russia. Or they could have rejected the pretext, for fear of a potential WW3. Now, suppose they chose to do the latter.
What would have happened after that?
(First, I suspect that they would have figured out that the whole thing was a CIA operation.)
Would the government have told the American people about the Cuban/Russian plot? Of course not. Because if they did, there would be an public outcry against those countries and a demand for retribution. So the government would have covered up the Cuban/Russian plot.
Naturally the American people would have expected there to be a thorough investigation. Something that the CIA plotters would NOT have wanted to happen. Right? Because they were the perpetrators!
The CIA plotters were not stupid. They considered that the above scenario might happen. So what they did was build into their plot a way for the government to blame Oswald in the event that they didn't act on the pretext for invasion/war. In order to do that, they needed to clean up right away, after the assassination, any OVERT evidence of a conspiracy. For example, entrance bullet holes on the front side of Kennedy's head. They had to control the autopsy.
That way, to the American people it would look like a lone gunman killed Kennedy. But to the government -- whose FBI was uncovering evidence of a Cuban/Russian plot -- it would look like just that!
I just recalled your Overt/Covert theory (a few posts up), and re-read it. What I'm saying is almost the same as that. The difference being that you believe the plotters ultimately did NOT want to have an invasion/war, and I believe they ultimately DID want that, but weren't obliged by the Johnson Administration.
Yes, I think we're basically on the same page.
The way I've been looking at it is: Philosophically, did the conspirators "succeed?"
If their goal was to justify a full scale invasion of Cuba and/or a first thermonuclear strike against the USSR, then they failed. If their goal was "simply" to eliminate Kennedy, then they were successful. (Of course it wasn't simple, since eliminating Kennedy would have opened up all opportunities for the conspirators to shape future policy.)
I believe the main goal was to eliminate Kennedy, and that a lone nut would ultimately be blamed. If I'm remembering correctly, there was another young man of similar background to Oswald that researchers suspect would have been blamed in the Chicago plot.
If the Lone Nut explanation failed in any way, the next trail of seemingly most plausible clues would have led to Russia and Cuba instead. In that case, "failure" of the Lone Nut story would have paid the conspirators a dividend.
Heck, if the Russian/Cuba explanation failed to convince in some way, there were other clues that led to the Mafia. The HSCA was more than ready to pin the blame on them.
Then there seems to be a few clues that led to Texas oilmen.
Finally, if all else failed, it could have been laid at the feet of disgruntled rogue CIA agents and angry Cubans.
All of those groups have been accused of being the main driving force. No doubt they participated in various vital ways, but only the biggest of the big could get into the Bethesda autopsy room.
The conspirators were smart to use so many cutouts. And use them in such a way that good people who doubted the Lone Nut story could go along with a cover up and still feel they were ultimately doing the right thing. No one wants to be the hinge that led to World War 3.
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I think part of what keeps me interested in this case is that there's all this sober, detailed discussion and careful analysis of every detail by so many intelligent individuals over the decades, but major aspects of this case remain as fanciful as something from a fairy tale. (or is that Ferrie tale?)
Other than a straight-up military invasion, I can hardly think of a bigger provocation than one country assassinating the leader of another country. Imagine that the JFKA really was engineered by the USSR and/or Cuba. What incredible good fortune they had. They managed to get the American president killed, and not only did the new American president not retaliate, he began twisting arms to help them get away with it.
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7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
You believe much the same as a lot of JFKA researchers, that the communist angle in the plot was a poison pill designed to get the government to cover up the assassination rather than investigate it.
I don't believe in that theory because evidence for the commie angle continued coming forth well after the Johnson Administration decided on the coverup. And Angleton and David Phillips continued pushing the commie angle, I think for years.
It's certainly reasonable to believe that before and after the assassination the conspirators were setting up Russia & Cuba to take the blame, and that the conspirators wanted war with Russia & Cuba as a result. Especially if the whole LHO Mexico City visit was fabricated after the fact as some people believe.
The question then becomes: why did the conspirators fail in getting Russia & Cuba to take the blame if that was their plan? Who overrode the conspirators and decided that it was to instead be blamed entirely on one psycho acting alone? Because it sure seems to me that efforts to buttress the lone nut narrative started almost immediately. (In my opinion, too soon to be merely damage control or emergency implementation of plan B.)
If the conspirators wanted the assassination to look like a conspiracy with multiple shooters (as there were), why then would they bother to remove JFK's body from Dallas at all, much less forcibly? They could have let the autopsy proceed in Dallas and let it reveal that there were multiple shooters firing from different angles. It seems a lot easier than taking the body and performing surreptitious pre-autopsy surgery to remove evidence indicating conspiracy.
It doesn't make much sense to me that there would be such efforts expended to make the JFKA seem like a Russian/Cuban conspiracy, yet individuals were there on the scene ready to take immediate actions to cover up any evidence of conspiracy.
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As I see it, there was a covert explanation and an overt explanation for the assassination, both false. The overt one was Lone Nut. During the "investigation" anyone that doubted the overt LN story was then fed the covert false explanation: a Communist conspiracy leading to Russia and Cuba. They were then pressured to go along with the Lone Nut narrative in order to prevent the inevitable nuclear devastation that would accompany the revelation that the assassination was perpetrated by Russians and Cubans. It was effectively used as a lever to move the Lone Nut narrative into place. From what I've read LBJ started using this lever to control the flow of the story from the moment he became President. He used the fear of nuclear war to pressure Earl Warren and others into going along with the cover-up (selling the overt explanation), and he was still pushing the possiblity of an international conspiracy in his last recorded statements on the subject.
It seems Ruth obtained Marina's Russian translator for Marina's police interview, and also sat in during that interrogation, both actions important to shape whatever narrative was going to be sold.
Ruth, as we all know, cold-called Roy Truly and got LHO his job at the TSBD, which as I see it, served two functions - keeping Oswald in Dallas and placing the patsy on the motorcade route.
I believe Ruth was also used to keep Oswald anchored in Dallas by housing his family in her home.
The Paine's were also able to testify that LHO possessed a rifle. Tellingly, from what I understand, they never actually saw the rifle uncovered, allowing them deniability about the make & model. (I'm one of those people that strongly suspects a Mauser was originally intended to be used in the scenario and had to be changed later.)
I'm guessing the discovery of the Minox camera was unintentional.
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5 hours ago, Tom Gram said:
If he had just killed Tippit in a desperate attempt to escape being taken into custody, why wait until the house lights were turned on and McDonald was right on top of him to attempt to pull out his gun?
That's what keeps getting me about the reality we're all supposed to accept as part of the whole lone nut explanation.
Why would he be going to the movies at all? Maybe I'm wrong, but sitting motionless and silent in a large dark room doesn't remotely qualify as "desperately trying to get away" in my book.
If LHO did kill JFK in order to be a big man, show his wife who's who, and get his name in the history books, why try to escape the law in the first place? John Wilkes Booth couldn't wait to take credit for killing Abraham Lincoln. What if someone else had been arrested and accused of killing Kennedy while Oswald was desperately trying to escape by sitting in a theater? Someone was going to be picked up. Can you imagine anything more self-owning than killing the president specifically to impress your wife and get into the history books, only to later see someone else given credit for the crime?
Whenever I'm thinking about the lone nut scenario, I always wonder this: if Oswald hadn't been seen going into the theater, would he have stayed for the second feature? It sounds like I'm making a joke, but the point is real. If he hadn't been seen going in and had successfully gotten to his seat without any authorities knowing, when exactly would the actual "getting away portion" of the getaway have begun? How about the "writing name in the history book" part? Not even the "making sure the wife knew and seeing her reaction" part?
We have to believe there's a guy willing to murder, but not willing to force someone to drive him somewhere at gunpoint. He wouldn't even have to do that. This is the same guy who (according to them) just got to Mexico and back using public transportation. Why, in his most desperate hour, does his very best getaway plan consist primarily (or possibly entirely) of going to the movies?
It's silly. It would be almost funny if the situation wasn't so serious.
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On 2/16/2024 at 9:33 PM, Bill Simpich said:
Leslie Sharp provided me with invaluable assistance...
As if the Paine's couldn't get more suspicious, or the intentional negligence of the Warren Commission more obvious, there it goes!
Outstanding post. It's an honor to be on a discussion forum with such knowledgeable researchers.
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I have Treachery In Dallas and Admitted Assassin on order. I had Treachery on my wish list so long I had forgotten why I added it, so when I culled the list a few years back I deleted it. I already have an unbelievable number of JFK books and don't really need to add more to my overflowing collection (hopefully only a select few Kindle JFK books in my future.) But I'm interested in learning as much as I can about Roscoe White, and neither of the two are available as e-books, so I just went ahead and ordered the physical copies.
I'm looking forward to reading them and discussing the subject further. Thanks again for the recommendations.
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YouTube - “Michael Brownlow interviews B.W. (Bobby) Hargis Part 1 / 2”
Uploaded by gbm hon 2022https://youtu.be/047rHDKqqxA?si=o7GgyFjxabr3B2fm
Transcript from 7:41 - 8:42
BROWNLOW: Now Hargar, let's clear up one thing real quickly: When you got up to the grassy knoll, up by the little retainer wall, and you looked over…
HARGIS: Mmm hmm.
BROWNLOW: …and you said you saw some people. Now, as the years have went by Officer Hargis, especially since 1974, a man who I knew - as you, being a police officer. I met him in s… I met him the year he was… died. Some people say he was killed or murdered. I don't know. Roscoe White was a Dallas police officer. You knew him, right?
HARGIS: Yes. Uh, huh.
BROWNLOW: And you know all these years these books have been written by many researchers, they have claimed there was a man behind the fence they call the Badgeman on the grassy knoll.
HARGIS: No.
BROWNLOW: And they said he shot the president. And a lot of them say it was Roscoe White. Now, Officer Hargis, being one of the few people to know that Roscoe White was on the grassy knoll - when you saw him, what was he doing?
HARGIS: Roscoe White was doing like I was doing, looking for someone who (unclear) the shot. He couldn't tell just like I couldn't…
BROWNLOW: That's right.
HARGIS …where the shot was coming from.
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On 2/18/2024 at 9:04 PM, Chuck Schwartz said:
The name of the book is "Admitted Assassin".
I'm looking forward to reading it. I believe Roscoe White is a significant figure in the assassination. Thanks for the heads up, Chuck.
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@Keven Hofeling I'm sorry. I think you're not going to get anything from @Pat Speer . His mind is made up, and no amount of evidence will change it.
I think you, @Sandy Larsen @Michael Griffith and others have already won this argument several times over. You in particular have done a tremendous job of presenting your arguments and as far as I'm concerned you have made an overwhelmingly convincing case. In my opinion Pat is incorrect and he should admit it.
Moderators, it might be nice if you all could consider, with your kind permission, that some of us could possibly be allowed to put @Pat Speer on ignore. May I ask that it at least be considered? If it can't be granted, I understand. While I am glad that there are forum members here expending considerable & commendable effort to fact-check him, and I appreciate the amount of hard facts they bring into these threads to correct his disinformation, I think some of us being permitted to ignore Pat might offer some help in this situation, since any other resolution seems unlikely at this point.
I'd like to say I'm not making this request lightly or casually.
Thanks very much for your attention.
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Just now, Pat Speer said:
Why? So you can pretend Hill, if he ever did believe the far back of the head was blown out, continues to claim as much? When he has specified for the last 15 years that the wound was at the top of the head, above the ear?
Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
I so wish I could put your ignorant self on ignore. it's too bad that you're a moderator here and it's impossible to put you on ignore. I'm now convinced that you're doing this whole discussion a disservice.
13 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:a member of the back of the head club
The club that includes 10 doctors including one neurosurgeon, that all saw cerebellum on the most important patient any of them would ever tend to.
Yet we're supposed to believe you instead of them. Graduate of "around the dinner table medical school", who 1. wasn't there, who 2. never saw the body as it was when it arrived at the hospital, and who 3. did not have the medical expertise to evaluate it even if you had been there.
In my opinion, nothing you say is believable anymore. I wish I could put you on ignore.
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8 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:
Fun and games. Fun and games. Let's pretend Hill is a member of the back of the head club...when he has been vilified for more than a decade for not being a member of the back of the head club. Fun and games. Fun and games.
They're at no pretending with this one, Michael. Hill was not a back of the head witness.
I so wish I could put you on ignore.
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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:
There are two more researchers I forgot to mention who have endorsed John’s Harvey and Lee. One is Dick Russell (author of The Man Who Knew Too Much), who actually organized the meeting and drove John and me to Rob Reiner’s house.
The other researcher was Jack White, who worked with John in the 1990s and produced, based in part on John’s early research, the 1993 poster titled “The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald.” (See below.)
So, here is the list I’ve compiled so far of 15 researchers who have publicly endorsed a long-term two-Oswald analysis:
John Armstrong, Rob Reiner, James Norwood, Sandy Larsen, John Newman, Peter Dale Scott, Joseph McBride, Dick Russell, Jack White, Pat Shannan, George Schwimmer, David Mantik, David Josephs, Robert Groden & me.
And here is the best photo I’ve been able to make of “The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald” poster. If you enlarge the graphic sufficiently, you should be able to read the captions under each mug shot.
Even without zooming in, I could tell #26 was airbrushed to hell and back.
The Roscoe White Reader
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
This is a reference for articles, books, videos and other information about Dallas police officer Roscoe White and his possible involvement in the killings of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit.
These are as many sources as I was able to find, listed mostly chronologically. There may be other articles, books, ect. out there, and this list may not be comprehensive. I hope to keep it updated.
In the next post I'll try to summarize what I believe are some of the key aspects of the Roscoe White story.
If you know of any other references regarding Roscoe White, please share them in the comments.
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I Was Mandarin…
by Gary Cartwright
Texasmonthly.com
1990
https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/i-was-mandarin/
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Who Speaks For Roscoe White?
By David B. Perry
The Third Decade
Dperry1942.com
1991
http://dperry1943.com/roscoew.html
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YouTube - “JFK: The West Texas Connection 1992 - the Ricky/Roscoe White tale”
Channel 2 KMID-TV Midland/Odessa, Texas
1993
Uploaded by Vince Palamara
2021
https://youtu.be/-1ssAkLLapc?si=jqpI8pAta635e-pG
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Double Cross: The Explosive Inside Story Of The Mobster Who Controlled America
By Sam Giancana and Chuck Giancana
Pg 335
1992
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Nightmare In Dallas
By Beverly Oliver
Pages TBD
1994
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Treachery In Dallas
By Walt Brown
Pgs 39, 67, 147-149, 189, 191, 193-194
1995
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Oswald Talked: The New Evidence In The JFK Assassination
By Ray and Mary La Fontaine
Chapter 11 - White Lies
Pgs 319-349
1996
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YouTube - “Michael Brownlow interviews B.W. (Bobby) Hargis Part 1 / 2”
2003
Uploaded by gbm hon
2022
https://youtu.be/047rHDKqqxA?si=o7GgyFjxabr3B2fm
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Roscoe White - Fact or Fiction?
By Steve Gerlach
Johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
2005
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id748.html
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Roscoe White: Shooter of JFK, J.D. Tippit and member of the ‘JFK Witness Elimination Team’
By crappygovernment
JFKplayersandwitnesses.wordpress.com
2013
https://jfkplayersandwitnesses.wordpress.com/2013/07/17/roscoe-white-shooter-of-jfk-j-d-tippit-and-member-of-the-jfk-witness-elimination-team/
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Problems in Black and White
By C.A.A. Savastano
2015 or 2019
https://www.tpaak.com/problems-in-black-and-white
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JFK FILES - The Roscoe White Story: Grassy Knoll Assassin Or Hoax?
By Ralph Thomas
Amazon Kindle
210 pgs
2018
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Entry on Roscoe White
Spartacus-educational.com
1997
Updated 2020
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwhiteR.htm
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The Lone Star Speaks: Untold Texas Stories About The JFK Assassination
By Sara Peterson and K.W. Zachry
Chapter 69 - Voices For Roscoe White
Chapter 70 - More Voices For Roscoe White
Pgs 450-462
2020
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Admitted Assassin: Roscoe White And The Murder Of President Kennedy
By Ricky White, J. Gary Shaw and Brian K. Edwards
340 pgs
2023