Denny Zartman

28 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

The NEXT day 11/23/63:

 

"...and a large wound to the head, in the right posterior area."

I'm sure Dr. Perry meant to say "top of the head" didn't he?

I mean, a doctor who was there saying wildly inaccurate stuff like the large wound to the head was in the right posterior area... people might get the totally inaccurate idea that the large wound to the head was in the right posterior area. That would be silly.

I sure hope someone who wasn't there and had no medical experience will correct the record and tell us all that Dr. Perry didn't say what he said and that he didn't see what he saw.

6 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

 

15 minutes ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

@Denny Zartman   Didn’t Jack White have a collage of photos he did years ago of the Mannlicher photographed in Dallas vs the one in the National Archives today wherein he alleged discrepancies as to the length and a slight variation in the font of the C2766? Any recollection of that?

Nick

8 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Would love to see this if either of you can provide a link.  

I don't think it's Jack White's work, but there's some discussion & photos of the C 2766 font discrepancy halfway at the link from where I sourced the original images of the rifle:

http://www.freehomepage.com/jfkresearch/c2766.html

1 hour ago, K K Lane said:

Thanks.    Thanks very much.

Please allow a little pushback.    The images appear to be from a variety of non-JFK-related guns.   

I'd be very interested in the identifying marks of the two guns in question.

K

Regarding the Mannlicher Carcano in question, serial number C 2766. My research indicates the black and white images are from C 2766, indicating "MADE ITALY" and "CAL 6.5".

"CAL 6.5" image should be attached below.

The color image is not of C 2766. It is the same model.

This is where I sourced the images:

http://www.freehomepage.com/jfkresearch/c2766.html

https://www.recoilweb.com/carcano-kennedy-assassination-rifle-161186.html

Additionally, on July 2, 1964, Attorney Mark Lane testified to the Warren Commission after examining C 2766.

"I told the Commission that, while not a rifle expert, I was able to see that it was a 6.5 Italian rifle because stamped clearly on the rifle were the words 'MADE ITALY' and 'CAL 6.5'"

Mark Lane, "Rush To Judgment", Pg 96

Regarding the Mauser in question: you're not going to find any other specifics about that exact rifle, because they made it disappear. So I did research and searched for all images of Mauser rifles that would have been available in 1963 and then looked for any engravings on those rifles. That second collage is the result.

39 minutes ago, K K Lane said:

I'm not a gun person.   How prominent is the identifying writing on both the Mauser and the Mannlicher Carcano?

To believe they didn't find a Mauser is to believe the cops couldn't read.

Good article, thanks for sharing. I hadn't heard about the possible connection to Ohio. That was interesting.

16 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If we assume LHO was a CIA asset, and very interested in and trained in spycraft...he may have used techniques to foil detection. 

Like evading apprehension by sitting motionless in a public place?

15 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

On top of that, LHO may have simply covered his cheek with paper or saran wrap while firing. 

You're going to have to produce some evidence for that. You can't just make it up out of thin air. Why do you do that?

9 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It's very frustrating for me when people refuse to follow the evidence.

Also, when people think a coverup can take place without people doing deceitful things.

I hear you on the frustration. You have a lot more patience than I do, and I appreciate you and @Gil Jesus bringing the receipts and doing an exemplary job of it.

There's no argument that hasn't already been made to them a dozen times over, so the entire effort is futile imho. If an Lone Nut theorist ever conceded a crucial point, they would then be forced into a position of having to explain why they ignored all the other tell-tale signs of conspiracy over the years. That's never going to happen. It's easier for them to just stare straight up in the sky at noon and swear that it's really midnight.

It's extra frustrating knowing that they are essentially allowing the killers of Kennedy and Tippit to go free and for history to remain distorted with falsehoods. But they choose to profess they believe Oswald was up there in the sixth floor window shooting at JFK, despite evidence to the contrary.

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

Long story short: it was not an easy shot, and assuming that Oswald switched from scope to iron sights mid-shooting and went 2/2 makes it even harder.

Oh, I'm sure Oswald's nerves were steady as steel, especially after running up four flights of stairs and the length of the sixth floor. Isn't that why they do decathlons? I'm sure a rapid heart rate helps riflepersons be more accurate.

And exactly why did that first shot miss, anyway? Is it because it was deflected by tree branches, as the Lone Nut theorists claim? I wonder if switching sights while shooting at a moving target through an obstruction makes the shot easier or harder?

Probably easier. Otherwise the LN's would have to explain why Oswald would, using the scope, not only miss the target but the entire limousine as well.

Great work on this thread, @Sandy Larsen and @Gil Jesus .

It looks to be a quite interesting book on a neglected aspect of the case. I'm looking forward to checking it out and reading everyone's takes when it comes out this October.

Thanks for all your work, @Vince Palamara .

32 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

None of this means I support one major political party or the other. In fact, I am independent.

 

Pull the other one, it has bells on it 

.

43 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Add on: Due to the Biden Administration's snuff job on the JFK Records Act, the public---including the media---can not confidently even today to say "We have the full record."

Any present-day review of the JFKA should start with the caveat, "There are 3,500 records pertaining to the JFK still blacked out by the public. After 60 years, the reasons for such a black-out are not compelling. A reasonable assumption is the Biden Administration has complied with the CIA in preventing the public from learning unsettling truths about the JFKA." 

It's simply impossible for you to be fair, isn't it?

44 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The BBC is known for its unrelenting woke reporting, which, curiously enough, has also become establishment reporting.

🙄

7 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Roscoe was a naughty boy

 

a very naughty boy

 

Worthy of note. Thanks, @Sean Coleman

Others have also mentioned that they see more of a similarity between Roscoe's  squareish chin and the chin in the backyard photo than Oswald's more pointed chin in other photos. Of course it's well known that among the people who argue the backyard photos were faked that there is an apparent faint line just below the mouth.

I've seen discussions where people have remarked about Oswald's odd leaning in the backyard photo. I had never really considered it unusual, but I guess it is distinctive with almost all his weight on the right leg like that. And there's no doubt the stance in the Roscoe beach photo is the same.

As cited in "Admitted Assassin", Pierre Lafitte’s date book for 1963 (see the 2021 book “Coup In Dallas” by H.P. Albarelli) apparently has two entries where the name/word “White” is mentioned. I have “Coup In Dallas”, but I have not been able to confirm this yet. Perhaps @Leslie Sharp might be able to help clarify this?

8 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

If this claim by Ricky White is true, one must consider Roscoe White a person of interest to a high level degree.

If Roscoe White was a nobody in the entire affair...why in the world would there be 46 pages of information accumulated by the FBI on him. And why in the world would they hold back 26 pages and black out 19 more?

Common sense tells you there was something far more intriguing about Roscoe White than nothing. 

I agree @Joe Bauer .

Transcript 1:27:28 - 1:28:15

Larry Howard: On August the 6th of 1990, the JFK Assassination Information Center in Dallas, Texas had a news conference that was world wide. We had Ricky there to tell his story about his father, Roscoe White. The next day, in the newspapers in Dallas and all over the world, the CIA, the FBI, and the Dallas Police Department said Roscoe White was a nobody. We filed a Freedom of Information Act to find out if this nobody has any FBI documents on him. If he was a nobody, he shouldn't have any.

Reporter: But the FBI did have information on Roscoe White; a total of 46 pages. 26 of those were withheld because they were classified. And out of the 20 pages researchers did receive, 19 had been blacked out.
 

Outstanding post, @Denise Hazelwood . It's rarely been put better.

It's worth noting that Aubrey Bell's account matches Jackie Kennedy's description.

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Are Ed Hoffman and the on leave Army soldier taking film footage from the knoll top both totally discredited witnesses? Along with their accounts?

I believe the soldier you are referring to is Gordon Arnold. Apparently he's not been definitively identified in any photos of the scene, and because of this some researchers doubt him. I know Beverly Oliver is doubted by many. As far as I know, Ed Hoffman has not been discredited.

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

What was White's assignment that day? Was White out patrolling that day? Was he stationed on foot patrol in Dealey Plaza? Or, was he inside the DPD building and simply ran out the building and over to Dealey Plaza seconds after he heard of the shooting?

From what I understand, White did not start attending police academy until December, so it seems hard for me to believe that he would be out on patrol or really doing anything that would involve interaction with the general public before then. But I don't know. Despite his status as a new recruit he unquestionably had access to sensitive evidence in the evidence room, that much seems apparent.

9 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Look forward to your thread Denny.  Very intriguing topic.

It is interesting, I agree. There's lots to consider.

I've started a new thread that will hopefully have information and resources for those folks interested in learning more about Roscoe White and his possible involvement:

The Roscoe White Reader

YouTube - “Michael Brownlow interviews B.W. (Bobby) Hargis Part 1 / 2”

2003

Uploaded by gbm hon

2022

Transcript from 7:41 - 8:42

BROWNLOW: Now Hargar, let's clear up one thing real quickly: When you got up to the grassy knoll, up by the little retainer wall, and you looked over…

HARGIS: Mmm hmm.

BROWNLOW: …and you said you saw some people. Now, as the years have went by Officer Hargis, especially since 1974, a man who I knew - as you, being a police officer. I met him in s… I met him the year he was… died. Some people say he was killed or murdered. I don't know. Roscoe White was a Dallas police officer. You knew him, right?

HARGIS: Yes. Uh, huh.

BROWNLOW: And you know all these years these books have been written by many researchers, they have claimed there was a man behind the fence they call the Badgeman on the grassy knoll.

HARGIS: No.

BROWNLOW: And they said he shot the president. And a lot of them say it was Roscoe White. Now, Officer Hargis, being one of the few people to know that Roscoe White was on the grassy knoll - when you saw him, what was he doing?

HARGIS: Roscoe White was doing like I was doing, looking for someone who (unclear) the shot. He couldn't tell just like I couldn't…

BROWNLOW: That's right.

HARGIS: …where the shot was coming from.

Summary:

This is a general overview of what I believe are some of the key facts, events, and mysteries surrounding Roscoe White and his possible involvement in the deaths of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit. This summary is by no means comprehensive. It is intended to help others who may be interested in the subject get up to speed. There is more information out there to consider and further research is necessary. (The “green book” alone could probably use its own dedicated thread.)

-

Roscoe Anthony “Rock” White was born in 1935 in Glenwood, Arkansas.

In 1956, at age 21, Roscoe worked for 2.5 months at Convair Corporation, a division of General Dynamics. At the time a man named John Mason Lankford was the director of security. Lankford would go on to become a Special Agent for the Office of Naval Intelligence, based in Fort Worth, Texas. Lankford was the person who verified Roscoe's employment with Convair when Roscoe was being considered for employment with the Dallas Police Department. Lankford would also play a security role in Dallas pre and post assassination.

Roscoe joined the Marines in February 1957 and served in the same division as Lee Harvey Oswald.

In August 1957, Roscoe traveled on the USS Bexar, a ship going from San Diego, California to Yokosuka, Japan. Oswald was on the same ship.

Roscoe left the Marines via hardship discharge on December 4, 1962.

Roscoe began working full time as an insurance agent in Dallas, Texas on December 7, 1962. On December 12, the Dallas Police Department initiated a background check on Roscoe as a precursor to possible employment.

Roscoe’s wife Geneva worked for Jack Ruby for a short time in the fall of 1963, a fact she later attempted to deny. Geneva only admitted it after a picture of her and Ruby was published in Time magazine.

Roscoe was hired by the Dallas Police Department on October 7, 1963. Lee Harvey Oswald started working at the Texas School Book Depository on October 18.

Ruth Stapleton, Gary Mack, and Jack White (no relation) are among the individuals and researchers that posit a shooter can be seen behind the stockade fence in the Mary Moorman photo. This alleged figure has been described as a hatless police officer, and has been dubbed “Badge Man.”

Alleged “Babushka Lady” witness Beverly Oliver claimed that she recognized “Geneva’s husband” on the grassy knoll just after the assassination.

Witness Ed Hoffman reported seeing four men moving about behind the grassy knoll fence during the assassination, one of the men being a uniformed police officer.

In 2003, former Dallas motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis seemed to confirm that he encountered Roscoe on the grassy knoll moments after Kennedy's assassination.

Roscoe attended Dallas Police Academy December 4, 1963 to February 28, 1964, and served as a police officer from February 29, 1964 to October 17, 1965.

Reportedly, no one knows what division Roscoe served in during his time as a Dallas police officer. I’ve seen it said that he worked in photography, but to my knowledge this has not been definitively confirmed by any documents or witnesses.

In 1966 Roscoe & Geneva sold their home and moved into a new one - a house that just happened to be less than 400 feet away from the home of J.D. Tippit’s widow, Marie.

Roscoe died after being burned in a 1971 workplace explosion. According to the FBI, the owner of the business had a $300,000 insurance policy on Roscoe.

In the 24 hours before he died, Roscoe reportedly said to Reverend Jack Shaw that he (Roscoe) believed the explosion wasn't an accident. Dick Adair, another employee who was injured non-fatally in the same explosion, also said he believed the explosion wasn't accidental. 

Roscoe reportedly made several comments that Shaw interpreted as referring to undercover work performed during Roscoe's time in the Dallas police department. “He sure let me know that he was doing something more than normal police business.”

Among Roscoe's belongings discovered after his death were a diary in which he claims to have killed Kennedy and Tippit; $200,000 in bearer bonds; and approximately forty photos of JFK related evidence, including a third backyard photo featuring Oswald in an alternate pose. This photo was allegedly previously unknown to investigators even though the pose matched that of a white silhouette “cut out” photo template and a test photo recreation featuring Dallas Police Detective Bobby Brown. Some researchers have since argued that Roscoe might have been the body portion of the backyard photos.

In 1990, Roscoe's son Ricky found a sealed canister in the attic of Roscoe’s parents' abandoned home. The canister held multiple items, including an old shorthand textbook/workbook that had seemingly been flipped upside down and converted into a scrapbook (referred to as “the green book”) of some JFK assassination related newspaper photos and hand-written notations.

Also discovered in the canister were one of Roscoe's Marine Corps dog tags as well as three cable messages dated 1963 with Roscoe's military serial number and addressed to the name “Mandarin.” According to Roscoe’s son Ricky, the diary identified “Mandarin” as Roscoe's code name.

There were discoveries in 1993 near Van Horn, Texas, a west Texas town close to the Mexican border. It seems Roscoe visited Van Horn with his family prior to the JFK assassination in what have been described as “hunting trips.” The items found near Van Horn included high-powered 1940’s era radio equipment connected to a large antenna, and approximately 2,000 empty 6.5mm rifle casings.

After filing a Freedom of Information Act request in 1990, Roscoe’s son Ricky learned that the FBI had 46 pages of information on Roscoe. Of the 46 pages, 26 were withheld as classified. Of the 20 pages released, 19 were blacked out.

-

There are some issues and problems with the Roscoe White story.

- The “diary” in which Roscoe allegedly detailed his killing of Kennedy and Tippit has since gone missing (reportedly just after a visit by an FBI agent.)

- Roscoe's widow Geneva, despite her proven connection to Jack Ruby, seems to be an unreliable witness. Because of this, I have attempted not to include her claims in this summary. It appears that Geneva was given 26 sessions of electroshock therapy between 1966 and 1971. Geneva was strongly suspected of creating a poorly made fake diary after the alleged first diary went missing. This faked second diary seems to have had the effect of undermining the confidence of the JFK assassination research community regarding the entire Roscoe White story.

- The so-called “green book” makeshift scrapbook was initially referred to as a witness elimination book. Researchers now seem to doubt that it was a witness elimination book.

- There is an additional story from an alleged witness by the name of Mike Robinson that I think should be noted for comprehensiveness sake: Robinson says that, as a teenager in 1963, he overheard an incriminating bathroom conversation about Oswald and Tippit at the Dallas Police Department in the hours after the assassination. One of the participants in this conversation might have been Roscoe. But it is important to take into consideration the fact that Robinson's memory was recovered via hypnosis.