9 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Thanks Michael, and I was a phone guy for quite a while as well...from transmission engineering to physical plant cost studies. Worked for Continental Telephone for eight years after coming out of Autovon switch maintenance in the service.  As to Johnson and Hoover direct access, probably not happening...as you can imagine beginning that evening Secret Service protection was intense and the story is that Johnson wondered out on his patio at one point that evening and one Agent almost drew down on him fearing another attack was in progress.

Johnson was a sneaky fellow though, earlier that fall he had eluded his protective detail and borrowed a car to have a clandestine meeting with his lawyer in regard to the Baker inquiry that was in progress.

I don't see much chance of un-monitored calls between Johnson and Hoover early on, or personal contact.  One reason for that is that we do know of one call that Manchester saw in the call log, from that evening to Hoover, that was later erased out of the log itself.  That suggests that there was no plan in place and as with the Sat morning call, later the transcript had to be altered and the tape itself erased.  Given that I would doubt any back channel was in place at that point or we would not have major loose ends like that.

Best wishes on the new job!  Larry

 

 

 

Excellent as always,

Thanks again Larry

20 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Thanks, Michael.  

Whether or not that guy with the bump on his wrist (just like the guy who's holding the rifle / carbine in The Back Yard Photos) really is Roscoe White, he's not the guy James Richards was referring to in the photo.

Thanks anyway!

-- Tommy

On 7/7/2004 at 5:44 PM, James Richards said:

Hi Justin,

I'm not 100% sure but it could well be. Gerry didn't go into any great detail regarding Saul Sage.

You have probably already seen it, but there is a photo showing Roscoe White and a few Marine buddies. One of the guys is supposedly named Saul and bears some resemblance to our Mexico Oswald. Unfortunately I can not post it due to some technical difficulties with the forum but if you send me your email address through the personal messenger, I will email it to you. I have no idea how to attach photos using the personal messenger feature. I'm just not that bright.

James

21 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Here's the photo James Richards was referring to in the previous (bumped) post. Could the guy in the foreground be "Mexico City Mystery Man?"  (See two of the CIA photos of MCMM near the bottom of the first page, this thread.)

That's Roscoe White, center left, in the T shirt and the familiarly odd stance.

33 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

All we have are approximations, from Manchester and the phone logs - Hoover apparently went home at around his regular time as hard as that is to believe - he was there when he received the call from Johnson who called from his office phone, something around six thirty eastern as I recall.  Johnson ultimately went to his residence, arrival about ten or so and he was accompined by several people, friends mostly who had flown back on AF1 with him.  They stayed with him most of the night.  My copy of Manchester is not ready to hand but it does give good detail on Johnson's movements...I put a good deal of that into Chapter 15 of SWHT if you have that.

Not sure what your overall question is, but Johnson moved into the White House rather quickly - far too quickly for JFK's friends who thought he was being an ass about it. 

 

Thanks Larry,

I was thinking that LBJ and JEH would be able to just step outside, or walk across the street to have some of these conversations that seem to be missing their regular documentation. Being a phone guy, I know how little trouble it would be to set up a secure private line between two adjacent homes, especially if you were the head of the FBI and the Senate Majority Leader/VP, and your main line of business was blackmail.

Regarding books. Between the extensive free time I have had and membership to this forum, I have avoided books in lieu of the awesome experience here and the new-found knowledge of how to, and willingness to, find and dig-into original documents.

I read Jim Garrison's OTTOTA and Manchesters Goodbye Darkness and The Glory and the dream, long ago. I now how have a ton of great JFKA reading on my IPad and a list of books I want to buy and keep handy for future reading. 

Your participation here and your sober analysis has placed your books on that list.

Unless something falls-through, again, I'll be starting a new job on Monday, and I probably won't be around here much after that.

Allow me to thank you once again for all that you have done for me, this community and, indeed, our great nation.

Cheers,

Michael

..."the most respected JFK assassination experts in the world including

Judyth Vary Baker (Oswald’s mistress), "

I am mostly agnostic on her story but she is not one of the most respected experts on the JFKA.

"Jim Marrs (1963 Dallas Journalist and author of the New York Times best seller Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy which was the basis for Oliver Stone’s film)"

I am pretty sure that Jim Garrison's OTTOTA was the basis for Stone's movie.

Shhhhhhhheeeeeesh!

2 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

http://www.ikilledjfk.com/

Wednesday May 31

This special documentary event, focused on the world’s greatest unsolved murder case, entitled I Killed JFK, will feature interviews with experts and historians, and will feature the only person to have ever confessed to killing President John F. Kennedy.  It will have its worldwide premiere one night only, on Wednesday, May 31st at 7:00pm and 9 pm in over 250 select theaters across the country.

Coinciding with John F. Kennedy’s 100th birthday, this extraordinary documentary will present indisputable evidence previously unavailable to the worldwide public.  I Killed JFK will also feature  never before seen and recently found footage and in-depth interviews with eye-witnesses, crime experts, and law enforcement officials who will discuss the viability of the confession of the alleged killer from the now infamous “Grassy Knoll” in Dallas, Texas. 

Additionally, as an added bonus, immediately following the documentary, this extraordinary evening continues, featuring an exclusive panel discussion with some of the most respected JFK assassination experts in the world including Judyth Vary Baker (Oswald’s mistress), Jim Marrs (1963 Dallas Journalist and author of the New York Times best seller Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy which was the basis for Oliver Stone’s film), Gordon Ferrie (US government, intelligence, and security expert), Barr McClellan (Author of the best selling book Blood, Money, and Power), and Zack Shelton (former FBIA agent under J. Edgar Hoover).

Tickets for I Killed JFK will be available on this website on April 28th and seating will be limited.

On 7/27/2005 at 10:35 AM, Larry Hancock said:

Hi Robert, I tend to agree although I still rubs me the wrong way. For example Manchester gave a very specific time and description of the Hoover call...along with calls before and after it. I don't know how he would have come up with such a thing out of clear air - but now the call log shows the call he listed before and the one after with the time differences adjusted to eliminate the time for the Hoover call. A Hoover call makes so much sense its hard to imagine it not happening....and there is no other record of anyone seeing Hoover anywhere in DC that evening where he could have met personally with Johnson, Hoover definitely stand out by his apparent absense.

I tend to wonder if DeLoach simple heard Hoover mention having talked to the new President and assumed it was in person.

Beyond that, and my distaste for loose ends, we have another source who in his biography describes being with McCone for that purported security brief first thing in the morning; he states they met Johnson in the hallway and Johnson had no interest in a brief and after a short exchange he left with no dialog. Now if this is true it seems very significant and if not somebody is working very hard at covering up matters of importance like MC that were dicussed.

Not sure that we will ever claify it but for the moment the apparent absence of Hoover in D.C. that evening, the disappearing phone call and Johnson's lack of interest in any national security brief the morning after the assassination sound pretty silly given what one would have thought would be the interests of all the parties involved (Hoover not ususally being bashful about thrusting the Bureau to the fore as one example).

-- Larry

A question, or observation, as it were, keeps popping into my head with regard to the hours and days after the assassination.

Wouldn't Jackie be In the White House on Friday through Sunday night?

And wouldn't JEH and LBJ be working from their residences? I believe that they lived across the street from one-another.

I guess the best place to look for this would be Manchester's book, of which I do not have a copy.

Truman's 12-22-63 letter lamented his formation of the CIA, or at least it's migration from an intelligence collection arm of the Chief Executive to an operational branch with an unclear control apparatus. Is anyone seeing that CIA control function as having migrated into the hands of the Council on Foreign Relations, or some such entity?

Thanks for the recommendations David's Josephs and Andrews!

9 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

The Politics of Heroin, Alfred McCoy.

A Death in  November, Ellen J. Hammer

The Ends of Power, H. R. Haldeman

The Perils of Dominance, Gareth Porter

Spanning the Century, (Harriman bio), Rudy Abramson

Thank you sir!

Cliff, do you have a top-five reading list that informs your perspective? Of course, I am looking for works that are outside of the normal JFKA angle.

Cheers, 

Michael

It looks like member Paul Hoven passed away in 2014

http://mackenfuneralhome.com/memorial-services/paul-a-hoven/

On 3/22/2007 at 5:52 AM, John Simkin said:

Good to have you as a member. Hopefully, you will tell us about your relationship with Gene Wheaton, Carl E. Jenkins, Ed Wilson and Albert Hakim.

What did you make of the Daniel Sheehan investigation?

It looks like Mr. Hoven passed away in 2014.

Thank you for your service and rest in peace.

http://mackenfuneralhome.com/memorial-services/paul-a-hoven/

Gene Wheaton died in 2015

http://www.evans-brownmortuary.com/obituaries/Milton-Wheaton/

His Spartacus page has the YOB as 1936, whereas the obit has 1935

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwheaton.htm

15 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Not well informed on the Harvey versus Lee issue but these last few postings have tickled my stunted English language skills and understanding interests.

I'll say a few things about the Lee Oswald we saw interviewed in the halls of the Dallas PD building the evening of 11,22,1963.

In between his frenetic jostling to and fro by his police escorts and with his hands cuffed I was surprised that he still had a sense of Southern politeness when he spoke. At least twice he responded to reporters and their questions with "Sir" and in his televised New Orleans debut and radio interview he also displayed this respectful politeness.

I did atch some Southern ( maybe Black southern? ) slang when Oswald was asked by a reporter in the DPD Hallway interview if he had shot the president...and Oswald did seem to stumble a bit in reponding ( nervousness? ) and after a pause and a surprised glance back at the reporter he said ..." No, I have not been charged with that"...and " the first time I had heard that was when a reporter in the hall "axed" me that question."

 

I hear a bit of Cajun drawl when he speaks.

On 2/14/2007 at 9:28 PM, Ashton Gray said:

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

I have a nascent pet theory.

Yes, the CIA was involved, along with a number of the entities mentioned above.

I am thinking it has to do with banana boats, Lansdale and the dirty, open secret; drugs. It would have implicated many but didn't come to light for 20 years when CIA drug trafficking got so big that you couldn't not see it.

On 9/21/2007 at 2:12 AM, Paul Hoven said:

Yes to John and Peter, Carl linked Bush to the bad guys, and it was when he was Director. 

.............

 CIA takes it the shorts and who was in charge a Navy Admiral and a loon. I always felt that North was a straw man set up to take the fall and not to smart.

Fascinating thread with some great input from members who we don't see much of anymore.

I'm just quoting Mr. Hoven as a ping, to see if he is still responsive to the forum.

11 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

You think people he listens to give a damn? 

I just think he would listen, if there was a voice to be heard. We're just so divided. He is told what his base wants. The rest is static.... noise. I think that noise has been engineered, and not by the far right, but by the MSM.

On 4/28/2017 at 0:03 AM, Paul Brancato said:

My general take is that the drug/Intel connection is ubuquitous, but it's peripheral, not the reason for killing JFK. There are many better ideas. It's just that the suspects were also complicit in, or profited from drug trade. It's nothing new. Just look at the British Opium Wars. 

Thanks Paul. I've been looking for an unspoken catalyst, something that would never be heard of by anyone. Drugs fit the bill; and drugs certainly ended-up floating to the top over the next 20 years.

Cliff seems to know a whole lot about that angle. If he ever publishes something I would be right on it.

I still think Trump wants to be a hero. There are a lot of regular folks out there, left and right, who want answers. Trump will respond to noisy people, especially if he perceives that it might win him friends.

If anyone has an original paperback copy of Garrison's OTTOTA's, I would be interested how this story is recalled in that book. I have long remembered a different scenario, especially with regard to the location of the murder being in Sugar Hill, NH.

MacArthur seems to be an odd figure to reference in this subject, but Henwasn't above absorbing questionable gifts of cash.

The Lifton thread is going off-topic into an area that I would like to hear more about. 

So I am going to out Cliff Varnell as the member who I mentioned, in the first post, and hope that he might step in, here, with some analysis.

The Lifton thread is discussing the Sotheast-Asia drug trade. I believe I have seen Lansdale in, at least, the median area of implication in the drug trade. Since I, personally, see Landsdale as an intelligence-craft successor to the military-arts practitioner, MacArthur, as "Generalissimo" in the region, I am wondering if Cliff, or other members, see MacArthur with his knickers moistened by that same drug trade, prior to having left Asia for good?

No problem guys...

13 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Nope. I just wanted you to look at the original "Kostin/kostikov" document linked because I have some observations.

This is the same document/item as on the Mary Ferrell site.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_15.pdf