Michael Clark

Testimony of George Senator.

Senator is being asked, name-by-name, if he recognizes any names written in Jack Ruby's address book...

5 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I take it, then, Michael, you don't want to answer my question?

DVP, wasn't inclined to speak for CTers, but it looks as though Mr. Josephs may have cleared things up for you.

3 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Michael,

Maybe you'd care to answer this question that other CTers have dodged....

Do conspiracy theorists really think the FBI "planted" all of those records in BOTH the Klein's files in Chicago AND the Seaport Traders files in Los Angeles prior to each of those companies finding the pertinent "Hidell" purchase records for both the rifle and the revolver on November 23, 1963? Can CTers REALLY believe they planted all of those records---right under the noses of the various Klein's and Seaport personnel who were performing the physical searches for those documents on 11/23/63? Such a notion is absurd, of course. But I guess many conspiracists must buy it.

 

David Josephs, in this thread, requested some help on a particular matter. Perhaps you should open a thread on that particular subject, maybe making a case, one way or another, in your introduction?

3 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Clarify what? I was just pointing out that DiEugenio was misrepresenting Jeanne DeM.'s testimony. That's all.

Roger that. As per my above post. I think I (we?) have wound-down through this thread topic.

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

 

Sorry, DVP, You have lost me. I looked back to the thread title in order to get back on topic. That's what I am thinking at the moment but I don't have much to add in that respect.

4 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

It's not a "minor" mistake on DiEugenio's part, IMO, Michael. Jimmy was implying that Jeanne HERSELF was a rotten l-i-a-r. What he really meant, though, is that MARINA lied to Jeanne. (Of course, perhaps DiEugenio really does think Jeanne lied in that part of her testimony....which would mean Jimmy thinks Jeanne just MADE UP the quote that Jeanne attributed to Marina about Lee shooting at leaves.)

DVP, you are on tilt, desparate or.... IDK?

Would you care to clarify?

8 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Dead wrong. Jeanne never said that SHE herself saw Oswald out in the park shooting his gun. Jeanne was talking about what MARINA had said to her.

Minor mistake, as were the "birds" as opposed to the "leaves". 

Thats just an attempt at obfuscation, DVP, the details of which I'll assume you were cued-up to by my above post which you chose to ignore. You never know, perhaps Jeanne corrected herself, such that her testimony came into line with Jim D's recollection. I shall have a look...

Real researchers, even those with a good memory, don't have time to dig into the nitty-gritty in order to present you with all of the failings of your arguments. I am glad that, for the time being, I am here to do-so.

45 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Great! Still more liars!!

Keep the liars comin', Jimmy!

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Well, if any of them had to do with "Lee Harvey Oswald," why don't you bring them up on this thread?  (I really don't have the free time to participate in much other than this thread, which is the one I'm interested in.)

I would Jim, but the problem is two-fold. First. My thread was directed at nay-sayers; kind of trying to meet on common ground. And my single, noted instance would already be acknowledged by an adherent such as, if I may, yourself. Second, this thread, as the title implies, was meant to deride the H&L phenomenon. There is no point bringing up a particular instance when folks are half-cocked with the aim of knocking it down. Heck, I could knock it down, calling the witnesses fibbers or unreliable.

To be sure, this is just a bad-blood thread. I am glad that you are enjoying the challenge.

Also, to be sure, the one instance that I mentioned in my thread was the Furniture Mart incident. I can't discount all the testimony. On top of that, it suggests an impersonation of the entire Oswald Family.... baffling!

Cheers,

Michael

21 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?"

Was Jeanne DeMohrenschildt a big fat falsehood teller when she gave the above WC testimony, Jimmy?

13 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It's amazing what having the truth on my side can do.  Despite all the names they call me, at some point they have to at least pretend to be interested in the facts, and that's where I can beat them all day long.   

Yes Jim, I wish there was less mocking and ridiculing. I said before that this story has tremendous breadth and width, and covers ground that even detractors accept. The theory necessarily entertains all extremes by its fully researched nature. It's a shame that people want to have fun by going to the waekest points on the structure and take a sledge hammer to it just to prove a point.

I posted a thread, weeks back, hoping to get some clarification on some truly "what-the-heck!" moments in the case that really could use some explanation, but there were no takers. I guess it's just more fun to point out the weakest areas of the structure, and harp about that, and sling dung at the researcher.

Cudos-to-you, and...

Cheers,

Michael

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

......

There's tons of proof that Oswald owned and possessed a rifle and a revolver as of March 1963. Tons! You just refuse to believe ANY of it is legitimate. ALL of this stuff is fake (or flat-out wrong), per many CTers:

1. .....

......8

So, as we can see, there is AMPLE proof that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and possessed the Kennedy murder weapon (and the Tippit murder weapon as well).

David J., do you really think the FBI "planted" all of those records in BOTH the Klein's files in Chicago AND the Seaport Traders files in Los Angeles prior to each of those companies finding the pertinent "Hidell" purchase records for both the rifle and the revolver on November 23, 1963? Do you REALLY believe they planted all of those records---right under the noses of the various Klein's & Seaport personnel who were performing the physical search for those documents on 11/23/63? Such a notion is absurd, of course. But I guess you must buy it.

15 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

They had plenty of irrefutable evidence!

They had bullet holes in JFK's clothes too low to have been associated with the throat wound.

They just ignored everything pointing to conspiracy.

They controlled the body, the investigators and the press.  What else did they need to make the LN stick?

Cliff,.... I know, I know. If a bomb destroyed the limo and killed everyone in it, they still would have blamed LHO and the Magic Bullet. It's hypothetical, if something happened that did, in fact, at the time, belie the LN scenario, such that it was, in fact, at the time, abandoned...

Cheers,

Michael

5 minutes ago, David Lifton said:

Your post makes reference to "Operation Northwoods Revised Edition." 

I know about Northwoods (I am familiar with Northwoods, but not the term "Revised Edition").  What is that? 

If you could explain, I'd appreciate that. If you wish to reply via private email, use: dsl74@cornell.edu

Thanks.

DSL

I'll venture a guess... it's a non-official term.

Commie-Cuban Attacks on the East Coast

Revised to...

Commie-Cuban assassination of the President in Dallas.

After the fact, aborted and downgraded to

A deranged, lone-nut, American, Commie Sympathizer.

1 minute ago, Dawn Meredith said:

Jim I hardly ever come here anymore. Seems a waste of time.  Answering all these questions and proving over and over that John Armstrong's research is valid goes no where.  Naysayers don't care about truth, just argument for the sake of argument.

It's like watching a tennis match. Your neck gets sore, but you just can't stop watching because you are amazed at Jim's stamina and skill in single-handedly holding his own against a team on the other side of the court.

Cheers,

Michael

7 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Ray,

........

Who convinced Jackie to ignore that and how?

..........

 

Steve Thomas

I would say that that was easy, no convincing necessary. She wanted out of Dallas, toute de suite.

Cheers,

Michael

9 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

And after all that, the assassination plotters had time to figure out how to snatch Kennedy's body?

It seems to me that the plan to snatch and alter the body had to have been created prior to assassination day. It seems that there is simply no way of getting around that.

 

By snatching, I assume you mean, taking the body from Parkland. And I assume you are then referring to a presumed session under a scalpel, prior to the official Autopsy.

Sure, all, of that would be planned.

6 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

The Lone Nut scenario was decided upon within hours of Oswald's capture.

Cliff, that is the consensus. I think all the information that I mentioned had to be coalesced and evaluated to see if it could be made to stick. As we know, there is plenty of evidence that the LN scenario is a falsehood. Some damning, undeniable piece if info could have popped-up in those few hours that would have made a conspiracy irrefutable. Also, something could have come out in the next few days to make a conspiracy irrefutable. There was always the possibility that they would have to walk that story back and work with a conspiracy scenario. The LN declaration was made in the first couple hours, but it was necessarily tentative.

Cheers,

Michael

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Paul,

What you say certainly seems to be a possibility. I've considered it and have seen others do the same.

But there seems to be a fundamental flaw in this theory. Kennedy's body was apparently snatched very quickly after his death. It seems inconceivable to me that the body could be stolen without having a preconceived plan. I mean, just imagine LBJ deciding to conceal the conspiracy, then making that plan known to others, and then someone coming up with the idea of removing evidence of conspiracy from the body. After that, somebody has to figure out how to steal the body without detection, etc. etc. Finally the body is snatched. How could all that possibly have been achieved in such a short period of time?

 

It has been my thinking that the Z film and other films that were made by the perps, had to be developed and viewed so decisions  could be made as to what actually happened on the ground and what they could get away with and what they could not. Info had to be gathered from the SS, witnesses, the hospital, the police, the shooting teams, observers and film viewers in order to make the autopsy scenario fall in line. After gathering all this info they had to decide if the lone-nut story could be made to stick.

Cheers,

Michael

From Wikipedia....

John Foster Dulles, who represented United Fruit while he was a law partner at Sullivan & Cromwell – he negotiated that crucial United Fruit deal with Guatemalan officials in the 1930s – was Secretary of State under Eisenhower; his brother Allen, who did legal work for the company and sat on its board of directors, was head of the CIA under Eisenhower; Henry Cabot Lodge, who was America's ambassador to the UN, was a large owner of United Fruit stock; Ed Whitman, the United Fruit PR man, was married to Ann Whitman, Dwight Eisenhower's personal secretary. You could not see these connections until you could – and then you could not stop seeing them.^[6]

^{------------------}

So, when the BOP was being planned, 

John Dulles was Secretary of State. Until April of 1959

Allen Dulles was CIA Director.

Henry Cabot Lodge was former Massachusetts Senator and Ambassador to the UN until 1960.

And somebody sends The Presidents brother, The Attorney General, to Boston to see if he could scare up a couple of banana boats for a CIA operation?

Cheers,

Michael

56 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Who cares? I sure don't. It's meaningless information. We know OSWALD was shipped a 40-inch "Italian Carbine" BY KLEIN'S on 3/20/63. And we know without a doubt that that rifle had the serial number C2766 on it. That's all that really matters.

 

But.... Oswald never owned a rifle. The rifle found in the TSBD was a Mauser, DPD officers have testified to that fact.

2 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Castro didn't have to be factually implicated. All they had to do was blame it on him. That was the whole idea behind Operation Northwoods. And Castro certainly could be said to have a motive: the U.S. had been trying to assassinate him. Lex talionis.

19 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

The FBI claimed that Klein's had substituted the longer, heavier FC rifle for the one ordered, a TS 36" carbine.

Klein's has the 100 rifle shipment from Feb 22, 1963 until Nov 22, 1963 while advertising a 36" TS carbine from mid '62 thru Feb '63 when the ad is changed to 

From April 1963 on, this ad runs with the hopes of selling some of the 100 rifles they supposedly just received.

The only rifle in inventory to satisfy orders for this ad - and the only order offered as evidence from Kleins, is the FC 40" rifle.

Any order for a C20-T750 between April 1962 and Feb 1963 was shipped WHAT Dave?

One last thing...  each of the ads up to April 1963 says "Rear sight adjustable for elevation"  
The rifles from Crescent - either the FC or TS - were REAR OPEN SIGHT rifles.

The revised order from Kleins' for "91 TS" rifles is the "Adjustable sight" model....    So basically for a year and right up to Feb 1963, rifles shipped for a C20-T750 order were not only heavier and more expensive but an entirely different rear sight as well...   

 

Dave, the FBI didn't look because there was nothing there for them to see...  as a result, their search would have disproved their story about the FC shipped for the TS.  Furthermore, the microfilm would also hold the key to destroying the bogus Klein's story...  In true FBI fashion, the film is gone.

If the evidence told the story needed, it would have been offered.  Instead, they created evidence which proves itself... yet fizzles away in the light of anything outside the closed loop of evidence.

You ever wonder how all the copier noise disappears only behind the serial numbers?

 

That's Awesome Mr. Joseph's! I know you and people like you have better things to do, but I have to thank DVP for spending so much time manning the clay-target-launcher so you can demonstrate you expertise!

Cheers,

Michael

11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

According to Jeff Caufield (2015) ......

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, In the above, where do Jeff Caufields claims begin and end; and which are YOUR claims? It is not clear.

....