Michael Clark

------

I've been looking into a few things regarding the Paine's. It is apparently a very sensitive subject and this thread is way to bloated to read fully or even scan for what I am looking for. But I did find Paul's post and it seems genuine. He seems to want to be a clearinghouse for certain aspects of our overarching discussion, one of those aspect appears to be The Paine's. What stuck me is two things. 1. They seem to have a Brother and Sister aire about them. 2. Does anyone else see the "Hapsburg Jaw" aka "Mandibular prognathism" in the both of them. I think I see it in the youtube video interview in their home after the assassination. ???

Thank very much David!

Paul, we largely agree. And we do agree on what was said, and when. To me, however, Marina's initial testimony was too concise to be in error, and can't be misunderstood. It was said with such awkward placement, however, that I believe that she was made to say it. George and Jeanne's testimony was, however, in response to a problem that Marina's scripted testimony created. Their testimony served two purposes. First, it absolved George of prior knowledge of LHO's ownership of the rifle. Second, it is corroboration of the otherwise very thin evidence that Lee did own a rifle at all. Cheers, Mike

Paul, not to be picky, but is it your thought that George wrote it, or is it your thought that the handwriting looks like George's and so you think he wrote it? Have you seen and compared the handwriting, or has that comparison, analysis and conclusion been made by someone else and you happen to agree with it? Again, not to split hairs but it would be an interesting distinction that would be valuable. It has been my thinking that some spook planted it in his stuff while he was away. Cheers, Mike

Alistair, to use buried for hidden in the US, you would almost have to be having an in-person conversation to use it, along with a nod or wink, or body motion. On the other hand, if you are talking about information, or a secret, buried works fine.

Thanks David, After browsing the forum it seems that most people believe they are faked, by a heathy margin. The pictures are quite valuable in adding evidence to the very thin claim that LHO even owned a rifle. It's hard to believe that Marina would lie so much and maintain the fiction for so long; but it just appears, more and more, that that is indeed the case. Thanks again David, for your reply, Cheers, Mike

Thanks for your thoughts Joe, I just apply it the unbelievability of the testimony. I can't believe that these things actually occurred. How people were compelled to make such testimony is difficult to understand but it's easier than believing that the events actually happened.

I can never seem to find the Hester's where I think they should be.

A post concerning, and isolating, George De Mohrenschildt's pot-shot on Walker comment. I am seeing 3 accounts on that comment. The first is Marina's Feb 3rd testimony. The second is George De M's 4-22-64 testimony. The 3rd is Jeanne De M's 4-23-64 Mr De Mohrenschildt: He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" --------------------- MOHRENSCHILDT.: Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?" The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning? I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see. --------------------- On April 23, 1964 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt recalls the pot-shot comment: JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other part of the house? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I came back to the room, where George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" ---------------------- It seems, Marina claims that G. De M. Made the comment about the pot-shot as soon as he walked in the door. In testimony months later, George, himself, makes note that he could not have made that comment if he did not know that Lee had a rifle. And so, Mrs De M. Steps-up with the story about Marina showing her the closet and gun, then telling George about it while in the living room. This sets the stage for the comment having been made in the context of him knowing that Lee had a rifle. Marina does not testify, nor is she asked, if she had shown Jeanne De M. the gun in the closet. ---------------------------- It looks to me like Marina's "by the way" comment was a pre-planned comment that was awkwardly inserted. It also looks to me that it created a problem that needed to be later amended by testimony from the De M's. Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him. I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note. He said he would not repeat anything like that again. By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?" I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless. You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always--but in this case.

What strikes me is that, when she testified to the WC, Marina is unclear about when Oswald "un-buried" the rifle and brought it home. She is unclear about it being Saturday or Sunday. That makes no sense to me. If the De Mohrenschilds visited, with a bunny for the baby, on the night before Easter, that being the last time she would see them, and that being the night that Mrs De M. saw the gun, Marina would be clear about that being the Saturday. Jim D's assertion about the conflicting FBI testimony makes sense in light of the WC testimony. I suspect that she is aware of the conflicting statements and this is how she dealt with it, i.e. Being mush-mouthed about it. Marina testifies on 2-2-64 that, a couple days after the Walker shooting, George DeM. Walked in the door and the first thing he said was "Lee, how did you miss?" (General Walker). ----------------- Mrs. OSWALD. .....By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?" ----------------- This is the only mention, in Marina'a lengthy Feb. 2nd testimony, of the De M's post Walker assassination-attempt visit. In her July testimony, this visit is not mentioned at all. I am still digging to be sure I am correct about this, looking over both the Feb. 2nd and July 24th testimony of Marina.

The De Mohresnschilds visited on the night before Easter. Easter was on the 14th in 63. So their Saturday night visit was about 10PM on the 13th. Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter. Walker was shot at on Wednesday the 10th. Then Lee "buried" the rifle for a few days. Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it. Mr. LIEBELER. He shot at General Walker on April 10, which was on Wednesday. *Mrs. OSWALD. Wednesday? Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it was on Wednesday. Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember, it was the weekend--Saturday or Sunday when Lee brought the rifle back home. Mr. LIEBELER. What weekend following the time he shot at General Walker? *Mrs. OSWALD. The same weekend of the same week. Mr. LIEBELER. Had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle back? Mrs. OSWALD. No. Mr. LIEBELER. How long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy the book? Mrs. OSWALD. He destroyed the book approximately an hour after he brought the rifle home. So Lee "un-buried" the rifle on the same day as the De Mohrenschildt's visit. Jim D., To be sure, I'm not eating the sandwich, I'm just looking at it.

Worthy of a bump after 5 years...

Mr. Jenner seemed intent on making a "scope-sandwich". You can't really have a a scope without a rifle. Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax---- Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important. Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it. Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there? Mr. JENNER. You say--- Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle. Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything. Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it. Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning something like that. Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is this? Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here. Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the closet--you saw a rifle? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course. Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was. Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby. Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt action but I would not know. Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, plain rifle. This is for sure.

Thank you, Paul. That's not enough to make a sandwich. Making a sandwich is a term I have recently considered adopting in my JFK research. I have looked at this or that aspect of the case and I have mused that each piece of evidence is a slice of this or that or some lettuce or a swipe of mayo and, voila! A sandwich has been created. Yes, I have been amusing myself with that. I am delighted to find that the conspirators are going a little hungry with those morsels in regard to the rifle. Paul, I am digging through old threads. I do not recall seeing your opinion on the authenticity of the BYP's. May I ask what your take is on those? Cheers, Mike

Connie Watton is the Housekeeper/Victim who was pushed in front of the train. Melanie Liverpool is the accused. I find no updated news on the case since the week following the incident.

I gleaned the following quote from this heavily trolled thread http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/15525-do-we-all-agree-that-the-backyard-photos-are-fake/&page=7 David Joseph's wrote: Very interesting thread - I've read thru the entire thing and was very happy to find reference to the Fritz notes but we're missing a piece of evidence An observation On page 9 it appears Fritz is trying to trap Oswald into saying he lived where Frtiz seems to know the photos were taken... NOT that he showed Oswald these photos ONLY that Frtiz is aware of their existence and knows what they look like... this is at 12:35pm on 11/23/63 and as we've already seen in the FBI report dated 2-3-64 Det Rose does not find the negatives until 3:20pm 11-23-63 Add this now, he books them into evidence at 4:30pm on 11-23-63 - when the 12 photos were printed is not yet determined Faked or not (I am not touching that one in this post) I find it hard to understand how Fritz can be questioning/trapping Oswald regarding photos that had not been yet found, not yet known to be found, not yet known they would be found or even prints yet made so FRITZ himself would know what he was asking Oswald to describe. I look forward to the discussion DJ

Bump, I know Jack White has passed. I am searching the forum for the Photo Analysis expert opinions on the backyard photos. Related thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/22303-more-on-the-byp/ Related thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/23028-how-did-they-get-roscoe-white-to-lean-like-that-and-not-fall-over/& Related thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/706-backyard-photographs/ Cheers, Mike

Sure, thanks Alistair!

I was going off-topic in another thread, so I am posting this thread to track persons who claimed to know that LHO owned a rifle, particularly the Manlicher Carcano, prior to 11-22-63 *** Edit. Here is a similar thread for reference http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12296-did-oswald-ever-possess-any-rifle/ So far I have found Marina Oswald, and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt. George De Mohrenschildt DID NOT see the gun. Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look, George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald. Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?" ----------------------- Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon. Ok, Jeanne De M. Saw the rifle... JENNER. You say--- Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle. Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything. Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Ruth Paine did not know about the rifle........... Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done? Mrs. PAINE - I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there. Mr. Paine didn't know about the rifle. Mr. LIEBELER - I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963? Mr. PAINE: No I did not. That makes Marina and Mrs. De Mohrenschildts the only eyewitnesses to Lee's possession of the (a) rifle. That's all I am aware of so far.

Ok, Jeanne De M. Saw the rifle... JENNER. You say--- Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle. Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything. Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Ruth Paine did not know about the rifle........... Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done? Mrs. PAINE - I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there. Mr. Paine didn't know about the rifle. Mr. LIEBELER - I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963? Mr. PAINE - I did not, That makes Marina and the De Mohrenschildts the only eyewitnesses to Lee's possession of the (a) rifle. That's all I am aware of anyway.

.... and who eventually profited from her position. Apparently, she received a lot of "sympathy" payments.

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. They said, "We have a picture of you holding"--actually it came up before then in an interrogation of him about this rifle that came to this post office box. They asked him, "Do you own a rifle?" He said, "No."

Since we're discussing it, does anyone have the photo of Lee with the rifle without a scope that supposedly showed-up in the Detroit press?

Gearge saw it and asked Lee iif he took the Pot-shot at the General. George's wife was there but I don't recall if she saw it as well. I was just throwing her in for good measure, to come up with a quick "at most" count. It isn't a large number of people that personally, visually, knew that Lee owned a rifle. Regarding the "a" rifle or "that" rifle, I think I am correct that LHO did not own any other rifle since at least as far back as when he went to Russia.