Michael Clark

I stopped as soon as I started. I copied Marinas testimony and I forgot how dumbfounded it makes me.... LHO: "Hi honey, I'm home! I just took a shot at General Walker!" Reading stuff like this stops me in my tracks. I don't know what to do with it. Obviously, that is not the real statement of LHO. Here is a line from Marina. Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it. To be sure, however, the list is not that long, although I obviously haven't read everything. Marina, G. De M., possibly Mrs De M., throw in the Paine's just as speculation and that very well could be it. Edith Whitworth saw a scope, or other rifle part. There may be another gunsmith in the testimony.

Thanks, I fixed it.

Just as an aside... I am curious as to how many people have to be lying in order for LHO to be telling the truth that he never owned that rifle. I am talking first hand people. -Marina -George and Mrs. DeMohernchildt ( I think they both saw it when DeM. asked LHO if he had taken the Walker pot shot.) (I am going to keep an eye out, as I read, to fill out this list. I have to read the Paine's testimony again.)

Recently, I gained a greater understanding of the whole question of what the Dark Ages were, what the Middle Ages were and importantly, what they were not. I simply did this by reading the Wikipedia entry on the Carolingian Renaissance. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Renaissance Briefly, after the Roman Empire became Christianized, scholarly literature was supplanted by dogmatic works of the church. Also, with the fragmentation of the empire in Europe, security was greatly reduced and localized power structures prevailed. With this loss of communications and security, much of the prior advancements in learning and scholarship perished, or nearly so. While brief, the Carolingian Renaissance rescued a useful language tradition and many works of literature. Without the Carolingian Renaissance, later revivals would have had to start lower, dig deeper and would have come-up far shorter than they did. I hope that makes sense and I hope it is useful. Cheers, Michael Wikipedia entries change. It is a couple months after I wrote the above. I don't know how much the Wiki entry has changed since, but I wish that I had copied the entry at the time of my original posting. That said, better late than ever. The following is a copy/paste of the current entry. May 11, 2017. Carolingian Renaissance Carolingian minuscule, one of the products of the Carolingian Renaissance. The Carolingian Renaissance was the first of three medieval renaissances, a period of cultural activity in the Carolingian Empire occurring from the late eighth century to the ninth century which took inspiration from the Christian Roman Empire of the fourth century. During this period, there was an increase of literature, writing, the arts, architecture, jurisprudence, liturgical reforms, and scriptural studies. The Carolingian Renaissance occurred mostly during the reigns of Carolingian rulers Charlemagne and Louis the Pious. It was supported by the scholars of the Carolingian court, notably Alcuin of York. Charlemagne's Admonitio generalis (789) and Epistola de litteris colendis served as manifestos. The effects of this cultural revival were mostly limited to a small group of court literati. According to John Contreni, "it had a spectacular effect on education and culture in Francia, a debatable effect on artistic endeavors, and an unmeasurable effect on what mattered most to the Carolingians, the moral regeneration of society". The secular and ecclesiastical leaders of the Carolingian Renaissance made efforts to write better Latin, to copy and preserve patristic and classical texts, and to develop a more legible, classicizing script. (This was the Carolingian minuscule that Renaissance humanists took to be Roman and employed as humanist minuscule, from which has developed early modern Italic script.) They also applied rational ideas to social issues for the first time in centuries, providing a common language and writing style that enabled communication throughout most of Europe. ImportEdit Kenneth Clark was of the view that by means of the Carolingian Renaissance, Western civilization survived by the skin of its teeth. However, the use of the term renaissance to describe this period is contested, notably by Lynn Thorndike, due to the majority of changes brought about by this period being confined almost entirely to the clergy, and due to the period lacking the wide-ranging social movements of the later Italian Renaissance. Instead of being a rebirth of new cultural movements, the period was more an attempt to recreate the previous culture of the Roman Empire. The Carolingian Renaissance in retrospect also has some of the character of a false dawn, in that its cultural gains were largely dissipated within a couple of generations, a perception voiced by Walahfrid Strabo (died 849), in his introduction to Einhard's Life of Charlemagne, summing up the generation of renewal: Charlemagne was able to offer the cultureless and, I might say, almost completely unenlightened territory of the realm which God had entrusted to him, a new enthusiasm for all human knowledge. In its earlier state of barbarousness, his kingdom had been hardly touched at all by any such zeal, but now it opened its eyes to God's illumination. In our own time the thirst for knowledge is disappearing again: the light of wisdom is less and less sought after and is now becoming rare again in most men's minds. Scholarly effortsEdit A lack of Latin literacy in eighth century western Europe caused problems for the Carolingian rulers by severely limiting the number of people capable of serving as court scribes in societies where Latin was valued. Of even greater concern to some rulers was the fact that not all parish priests possessed the skill to read the Vulgate Bible. An additional problem was that the vulgar Latin of the later Western Roman Empire had begun to diverge into the regional dialects, the precursors to today's Romance languages, that were becoming mutually unintelligible and preventing scholars from one part of Europe being able to communicate with persons from another part of Europe. Alcuin (pictured center), was one of the leading scholars of the Carolingian Renaissance. To address these problems, Charlemagne ordered the creation of schools in a capitulary known as the Charter of Modern Thought, issued in 787. A major part of his program of reform was to attract many of the leading scholars of the Christiandom of his day to his court. Among the first called to court were Italians: Peter of Pisa, who from 776 to about 790 instructed Charlemagne in Latin, and from 776 to 787 Paulinus of Aquileia, whom Charlemagne nominated as patriarch of Aquileia in 787. The Lombard Paul the Deacon was brought to court in 782 and remained until 787, when Charles nominated him abbot of Montecassino. Theodulf of Orléans was a Spanish Goth who served at court from 782 to 797 when nominated as bishop of Orléans. Theodulf had been in friendly competition over the standardization of the Vulgate with the chief among the Charlemagne's scholars, Alcuin of York. Alcuin was a Northumbrianmonk and deacon who served as head of the Palace School from 782 to 796, except for the years 790 to 793 when he returned to England. After 796, he continued his scholarly work as abbot of St. Martin's Monastery in Tours. Among those to follow Alcuin across the Channel to the Frankish court was Joseph Scottus, an Irishman who left some original biblical commentary and acrostic experiments. After this first generation of non-Frankish scholars, their Frankishpupils, such as Angilbert, would make their own mark. The later courts of Louis the Pious and Charles the Bald had similar groups of scholars. The Irish monk Dicuil attended the former court, and the more famous Irishman John Scotus Eriugena attended the latter. One of the primary efforts was the creation of a standardized curriculum for use at the recently created schools. Alcuin led this effort and was responsible for the writing of textbooks, creation of word lists, and establishing the trivium and quadrivium as the basis for education. Another contribution from this period was the development of Carolingian minuscule, a "book-hand" first used at the monasteries of Corbie and Tours that introduced the use of lower case letters. A standardized version of Latin was also developed that allowed for the coining of new words while retaining the grammatical rules of Classical Latin. This Medieval Latin became a common language of scholarship and allowed administrators and travelers to make themselves understood in various regions of Europe. Carolingian artEdit Main article: Carolingian art Carolingian art spans the roughly hundred-year period from about 800–900. Although brief, it was an influential period. Northern Europe embraced classical Mediterranean Roman art forms for the first time, setting the stage for the rise of Romanesque art and eventually Gothic art in the West. Illuminated manuscripts, metalwork, small-scale sculpture, mosaics, and frescos survive from the period. Carolingian architectureEdit Main article: Carolingian architecture Carolingian architecture is the style of North European architecture promoted by Charlemagne. The period of architecture spans the late eighth and ninth centuries until the reign of Otto I in 936, and was a conscious attempt to create a Roman Renaissance, emulating Roman, Early Christian and Byzantine architecture, with its own innovation, resulting in having a unique character. Its architecture was the most salient Carolingian art to a society that never saw an illuminated manuscript and rarely handled one of the new coins. "The little more than eight decades between 768 to 855 alone saw the construction of 27 new cathedrals, 417 monasteries, and 100 royal residences", John Contreni calculates. Documents created during the Carolingian Renaissance show growth of instrumental music with new instruments. The images may document earlier European cythara (lute types) or else a "revival of the Roman kithara." Carolingian currencyEdit Around AD 755, Charlemagne's father Pepin the Short reformed France's currency. A variety of local systems was standardized, with minor mints being closed, royal control over the rest strengthened, and purity increased. In place of the gold Roman and Byzantine solidus then common, he established a system based on a new .940-fine silver penny (Latin: denarius; French: denier) weighing 1/240 of a pound (librum, libra, or lira; livre). (The Carolingian pound seems to have been about 489.5 grams, making each penny about 2 grams.) As the debased solidus was then roughly equivalent to 11 of these pennies, the shilling (solidus; sol) was established at that value, making it 1/22 of the silver pound. This was later adjusted to 12 and 1/20, respectively. During the Carolingian period, however, neither shillings or pounds were minted, being instead used as notional units of account. (For instance, a "shilling" or "solidus" of grain was a measure equivalent to the amount of grain that 12 pennies could purchase.) Despite the purity and quality of the new pennies, however, they were repeatedly rejected by traders throughout the Carolingian period in favor of the gold coins used elsewhere, a situation that led to repeated legislation against such refusal to accept the king's currency. The Carolingian system was imported to England by Offa of Mercia and other kings, where it formed the basis of English currency until the late 20th century. NotesEdit Einhard's use of the Roman historian Suetonius as a model for the new genre of biography is itself a marker for the Carolingian Renaissance. ReferencesEdit CitationsEdit Trompf (1973). Contreni (1984), p. 59. Nelson (1986). Clark, Civilization. Thorndike (1943). ^ a b Scott (1964), p. 30. Cantor (1993), p. 190. Innes (1997). Lewis Thorpe, tr., Einhard and Notker the Stammerer, Two Lives of Charlemagne, 1969:49f. Carolingian Schools, Carolingian Schools of Thought. Cantor (1993), p. 189. Chambers & al. (1983), pp. 204-205. Contreni (1984), p. 63. Winternitz, Emanuel (July–December 1961). "THE SURVIVAL OF THE KITHARA AND THE EVOLUTION OF THE CITTERN, A Study in Morphology". Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes. 24 (3/4): 213. Retrieved 24 November 2016. ^ a b Allen (2009). ^ a b c d Chown (1994), p. 23. Ferguson (1974), "Pound". Munro (2012), p. 31. ^ a b Suchodolski (1983). Scott (1964), p. 40. BibliographyEdit Allen, Larry (2009), "Carolingian Reform", The Encyclopedia of Money, Sta. Barbara: ABC Clio, pp. 59–60, ISBN 978-1-59884-251-7. Cantor, Norman F. (1993). The Civilization of the Middle Ages: a completely revised and expanded edition of Medieval history, the life and death of a civilization. HarperCollins. ISBN 0-06-017033-6. Chambers, Mortimer; et al. (1983), The Western Experience to 1715 (3rd ed.), New York: Alfred A. Knopf, ISBN 0-394-33085-4. Chown, John F (1994), A History of Money from AD 800, London: Routledge, ISBN 0-415-10279-0. Contreni, John G. (1984), "The Carolingian Renaissance", Renaissances before the Renaissance: cultural revivals of late antiquity and the Middle Ages. Ferguson, Wallace K. (1974), "Money and Coinage of the Age of Erasmus: An Historical and Analytical Glossary with Particular Reference to France, the Low Countries, England, the Rhineland, and Italy", The Correspondence of Erasmus: Letters 1 to 141: 1484 to 1500, Toronto: University of Toronto Press, pp. 311–349, ISBN 0-8020-1981-1. Grier, James (Spring 2003), "Ademar de Chabannes, Carolingian Musical Practices, and "Nota Romana", Journal of the American Musicological Society, 56 (1), pp. 43–98. Innes, M. (1997), "The classical tradition in the Carolingian Renaissance: Ninth-century encounters with Suetonius", International Journal of the Classical Tradition. Munro, John H. (2012), "The Technology and Economics of Coinage Debasements in Medieval and Early Modern Europe: With Special Reference to the Low Countries and England", Money in the Pre-Industrial World: Bullion, Debasements, and Coin Substitutes, Pickering & Chatto, republished 2016 by Routledge, pp. 30 ff, ISBN 978-1-84893-230-2. Nelson, Janet L. (1986), "On the limits of the Carolingian renaissance", Politics and Ritual in Early Medieval Europe. Scott, Martin (1964), Medieval Europe, New York: Dorset Press, ISBN 0-88029-115-X. Suchodolski, Stanislaw (1983), "On the Rejection of Good Coin in Carolingian Europe", Studies in Numismatic Method: Presented to Philip Grierson, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp. 147–152, ISBN 0-521-22503-5. Thorndike, Lynn (1943), "Renaissance or Prenaissance?", Journal of the History of Ideas, No. 4, pp. 65 ff. Trompf, G.W. (1973), "The concept of the Carolingian Renaissance", Journal of the History of Ideas, pp. 3 ff.

Alistair, thanks for posting the HSCA results. It's a pile of mush-mouthed garbage.

A significant number of people reported more than three shots. Likewise, many people reported 2 shots in quick succession., indicating two gunmen. Then of course, there is the impossibility of the pristine, magic bullet.

Roger, did you read "In the Shadow of Dallas"? What did you think of it?

I am thinking that Jesus was the Jesus from The Gospel of Thomas. A guy with an unfathomable message expressed in the form of sayings, which were a familair mode of communication at the time. The message, however, was new. Of course, if you were not of noble blood, of aristocratic lineage, bestowed of great omens, or demonstrating great powers or relating yourself in familiar pagan ways, you were mad. The message was, however, immutable. So the messenger was bestowed with miraculous powers, called the son of God (divi filius), and the language of his teachings raised from that of a desert nomad to that of a respectable Roman aristocrat. I'm good with that; it's the thought that counts. Cheers, Michael

I've become interested in the history of this forum and it's members. I have not quite figured out the best place to posit my questions. It seems that Nathaniel was lost in a month long shut-down of the form in 2013. It also seems that we lost a bunch of members in December of last year, 2016; including Merideth. Ive noticed, being a nooob, that some forum greats have died or disappeared along the way. Some have been difficult to track down and the circumstances of their demise is almost always obscure in an obituary. It seems to me like some of these folks should be momorialized in a hall-of-fame type area of the forum. To be sure, I did not exert great effort to see how Nathaniel is doing these days. It did seem like a good post to bump in order to raise the subject of the status, well-being, and whereabouts of former members. Cheers, Michael

If you know that the head shot came from the stockade fence, then you know that Abe Zapruder could not have not known about that shot.

Guantanamo was as much an issue, then, as it was on January 19, 2017.

Zapruper's film was critical to managing the information, after the fact. Abe Zapruder's story about being encouraged to go get his camera is a lie. Follow the film through the upper Midwest on its way to D.C.

ONI.

My theory is fluid. I have much reading to do. Answering this question, right here, right now, I would say... LBJ, with his knack for getting a lot of dirty hands, including his own, to dismember a body, flush the fluids from the tub, and crush the bones to be spread out-back. It helps that JEH lived across the street. *** edit - it could not have been done without him.

The threat that Ruby was under had to be far greater than being just a threat to his personal safety. It had to be a threat to his entire family or possibly to the Jewish people as a whole (White Russian Jews? Zionist Jews?). Guilt had to rest on Oswald or something major was going to happen. Simple manipulation by the DPD is not enough to explain it, IMHO. Cheers, Michael

Cool, thanks.

Alistair, basically Senator says that Ruby woke him up, before dawn, picked-up Crafard, drove around. Took pics of the billboard, went to the post office, then to the Southland cafe and then home, around daybreak. His testimony, over two days changes slightly. On the first day of testimony he says that he cannot remember anything til Saturday evening. The next day of testimony, seemingly under pressure (to me) he sort-of remembers having a drink with a friend at the Burgunby room and later, 7PMish, has a drink with the same guy at the same place. He remembers nothing more. I have not found testimony from the guy at the post office or anyone at the Southland Cafe yet. If I did, I read it before I started taking notes. The whole Pic/post office/Southland cafe thing may have never happened, and that may explain why it makes no sense. The Polaroid pics are a thin slice of evidence on that sandwich. Cheers, Michael

Testimony of Jack Ruby: Chief Justice WARREN. I will be glad to talk that over, if we can. You might go right ahead, if you wish, with the rest of your statement. Mr. RUBY. All right. I remained at KLIF from that moment on, from the time I got into the building, with Russ Knight. We talked about various things.... ------------------------------ So I remained there until about 2 a.m., and we all partook of the sandwiches and had a feast there. And they spliced the various comments they got back and forth of Henry Wade, of Russ Knight's copy--of Russ Knight's items of Henry Wade. Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby, this is the young man, Mr. Specter. He is a member of our staff, and he comes from Philadelphia. (Ruby shakes hands with Mr. Specter.) Mr. RUBY. I am at a disadvantage, gentlemen, telling my story. Chief Justice WARREN. You were right at the point where you had it about 2 o'clock in the morning, and you had had your feast, as you mentioned, and had talked to these men, and so forth. That was the last that you had told us. Mr. RUBY. Well, lots of things occurred up to that. They talked pro and con about the tragedy. At 2 a.m, I left the building. I drove--I was going to go toward the Times Herald Building, because as a result-- ----------------------------------- As I was driving toward the Times Herald with the intention of doing these things, I heard someone honk a horn very loudly, and I stopped. There was a police officer sitting in a car. He was sitting with this young lady that works in my club, Kathy Kay, and they were very much carried away. And I was carried away; and he had a few beers, and it is so bad about those places open, and I was a great guy to close; and I remained with them--did I tell you this part of it? Mr. MOORE .I don't recall this part; no. Mr. RUBY. I didn't tell you this part because at the time I thought a lot of Harry Carlson as a police officer, and either it slipped my mind in telling this, or it was more or less a reason for leaving it out, because I felt I didn't want to involve them in anything, because it was supposed to be a secret that he was going with this young lady. He had marital problems. I don't know if that is why I didn't tell you that. Anyway, I did leave it out. His name is Harry Carlson. Her name is Kathy Kay. And they talked and they carried on, and they thought I was the greatest guy in the world, and he stated they should cut this guy inch by inch into ribbons, and so on. And she said, "Well, if he was in England, they would drag him through the streets and would have hung him." I forget what she said. I left them after a long delay. They kept me from leaving. They were constantly talking and were in a pretty dramatic mood. They were crying and carrying on. I went to the building of the Times Herald. I went to the Times Herald-- --------------------------- Kathy Kay is running with Officer Olsen, and Officer Carlson? Ruby has the names mixed-up, or they changed names to protect the guilty.....

Testimony of George Senator: Mr. SENATOR. After he had woken me up on Saturday morning, there was a bunch of sandwiches still wrapped that hadn't been distributed, and--I don't know--I had no idea how many he bought or how many he had made, but he still come home with maybe 6, 8, 10, or 12 of those sandwiches. Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of sandwiches were they? Mr. SENATOR. I think they were corn beef and pastrami on rye, if I remember right, on rye bread. This I do remember, and they were still on the kitchen table, and as a matter of fact they were in two bags, if I remember right. They were in two bags. I think he had some cake too, that he bought in the delicatessen. Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw that Saturday morning when you got up? Mr. SENATOR. Yes. ------------------------------------------- Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with Jack about those sandwiches? Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had been to the police station and .he had passed out a lot to various policemen or plainclothesmen. I don't know who. I don't know who he passed them out to. But it seems like I gather that he must have had an awful lot of these made, or whatever it might have been. He must have had a slew of them made. Now why I did it I don't know. Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this possible, that all you would have learned from him, you asked him "Where did you get these sandwiches" and he said "I got them for the men at the police station but they didn't eat them"? Could that have been the conversation? Mr. SENATOR. No; he passed out some; I know. He said he had passed out some sandwiches. As a matter of fact he even took some to his sister. Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sandwiches to his sister? When did he take the sandwiches to his sister? Mr. SENATOR. That was sometime Friday. Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you learn that? Mr. SENATOR. From Jack.

Meanwhile..... Larry Crafard is lying on his cot, in the Carousel, talking with a girl he doesn't know, who called about getting a job there, and she is telling Larry that she is leaving town for good in the morning.

Alistair, I was just preparing a post with Mrs. Olsen's testimony...... ha. Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay there at the club? Mrs. OLSEN. Well, they close at 12. Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew someplace else? Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we went--do you want to know later what happened? Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Mrs. OLSEN. We went to the parking lot; we used to go over there and talk to Johnny. Mr. SPECTER. Johnny who? Mrs. OLSEN. I don't know. Mr. SPECTER. Where is the parking lot located? Mrs. OLSEN. Right behind the Carousel Club; across the street on--what street would that be? Mr. SPECTER. Akard? Mrs. OLSEN. Akard? Mr. SPECTER. Jackson and Akard? Mrs. OLSEN. Jackson. Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the intersection of Jackson and Akard? Mrs. OLSEN. No. Jackson and the next street down. What was that? Field Jackson and Field. And we sat in there and we talked. Mr. SPECTER. How long did you talk to Johnny? Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, quite a while. Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there at that time? Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no. And we were sitting there; it was late, and that's when Jack Ruby drove by. Mr. SPECTER. What time did he drive by? Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I can't be positive on these times. Mr. SPECTER. About what time? Mrs. OLSEN. I guess around 1. Mr. SPECTER. Did he stop? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. We waved, and he stopped. He stopped at a red light and pulled in and he came in and sat in the car and talked to us for quite a while. Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last? Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess an hour or so at least. --------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can recollect about that conversation? Mrs. OLSEN. No. Mr. SPECTER. Had you talked to Ruby earlier on that Friday? Mrs. OLSEN. No. Mr. SPECTER. How long had you been at that parking lot before Ruby arrived? Mrs. OLSEN. I guess about an hour, as close as I can remember. ---------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. After Mr. Ruby left what did you and Mr. Olsen do next? Mrs. OLSEN. We came home to my house. Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at your house? Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, let me see. It was kind of late, I guess around 3.

Thank you Steve Michael

I have limited bandwidth during most of the day. So I have to put off watching videos most of the time. It's just a few brief opportunities a day. Because of this I don't have info that is available to most people, all of the time. Mike

Correct Alistair, I am now starting a thread titled: "The Two Jack Rubys" just kidding.

About 15 minutes into this video it is well established that Ruby was there and made the FPCC comment. The account is authentic IMO. What to make of conflicting accounts? IDK