John Butler

Jim, That can be said for just about everything in Dealey Plaza and out on Patten and the Texas Theatre. Really the best propaganda experts from government agencies have stirred the evidence in this case to the point one can argue against anything one points out. And, that is the job of those folks who don't want to be called LNers. Perhaps we could call them assassination or conspiracy deniers instead. Jackie Kennedy said President Kennedy was shot in the head just as she saw a blue grey building up ahead. There is no blue grey building on Elm or Houston. Everyone I know denies or ignores that statement. To many pick and choose evidence to support their conclusions.

Jim, Jeremy makes these bold claims with little evidence, or none to back them up. At best, he will refer you to some other site that supposedly upholds his claim. He will ignore or deny anything you present to the contrary. Even if other researchers support your conclusions with more evidence, it does not matter. You have presented solid evidence for the things you are saying. He has a referral to elsewhere as refutation. Compare his reply to Steve Thomas' reply and you will understand what I am saying.

I believe that one has to admit there is no Minox camera in that particular photo. A direct evidence witness has said there should be a camera on top of the camera case. It is not there which leads one to believe there are other photos or at least one other. This crop of the photo shows there was no camera in this photo. That doesn't mean anything in light of documentary evidence and sworn statements. Courts usually take such evidence over photos. Someone said this is just a moment in time. What happened before this photo was taken? Was the Minox removed? Michael Pain was not a criminal or criminal suspect at that time. Why are those cards there? Why is his alleged Minox camera equipment there since we should be seeing only Oswald possessions? My best guess is that this was arranged by the FBI under command from J. Edgar.

Jeremy, I do believe you are a denier of reality. You say you are not a LNer, yet almost all of the things that you write serve that paradigm. Here's an example: You say the Zapruder film is true blue and unaltered, and no one has proven it to be so in 30 years. You say this with much force, but little evidence to back those statements up. Can you explain the Zapruder Gap? This is the missing time and frames from Z 132 to Z 133 when the p. limo mysteriously appears on Elm Street. I estimate that is about a 20 second interval. Best estimate by David Josephs is 15 seconds. That is roughly 275 frames cut from the film. Can you explain that? Who did the cutting? Zapruder and Sitzman say he never stopped filming. There is no evidence that the filming stopped such as ending and startup frames which are said to be lighter. Jim Hargrove just posted more evidence on the Minox camera debacle. You more than likely will ignore or deny the evidence posted by Jim concerning Gus Rose and the Minox camera. If Oswald had gone to trial a trial judge would except his evidence as direct evidence and be admitted. I'll be interested in what you have to say. Please, no more insults to David Healey or myself. You do yourself little good with such behavior.

It reads as if there is a breakdown in FBI/DPD cooperation. Imagine that. Do you think that perhaps their cooperation with the FBI initiated a gag reflex on the part of the DPD after so many demands. Thanks for posting this. I had not seen this Gus Rose interview. And, you know what I think of the Oswald/Paine photo mix up to give credibility to the alleged Paine Minox camera. I'll make copies of these to add to my files. Thanks again.

You should take a poll otherwise it will be the same as other things you say. Your colleaque in arms likens those kind of things as Butlerian. Do you think those things are Butlerian? Well, those are just a small part of a wider Butlerian universe.

Jim, I have been reading info on Jack Tatum. There are a number of quirky, perhaps questionable things about Tatum and his story. If you are interested, I will look into it more and send my conclusions. PS: The more I read on this the more Jack Tatum shows up as a phony and his testimony pops up after the HSCA finds "baffling" evidence about the Tippit head wound.

Thanks Jim, I'll look into Jack Tatum. It is not that I doubt what you are saying. I'm just looking for more info. Thanks again.

Indeed. What will they think? What will they think reading Jonathan, Greg's, and others similar work? Would they think what I am thinking? I can't say what I am really thinking for fear of running afoul of the Forum's rules.

But, the Minox camera, camera case, pedometer, compass, photos, and film were alleged to be Michael Paine's. Those items were mixed in with Oswald's possessions. Ruth gave them up. There were cards/items in that photo that had Michael Paine's name on them suggesting by association that the items nearby were Michael Paine's. Was Ruth or Michael saying that Michael was a spy? Were they saying he was an intelligence agent? I do believe this states the problem very well. Ruth was there while the police were searching on the day of the assassination. She pointed out the blanket that Oswald wrapped his alleged rifle and other things. All of Michael's alleged camera material, etc was given by Ruth to the DPD officials. Michael Paine was not a suspect. Why did Ruth give his possessions to the police? Surely, she could have said "Oh, these photos are ones Micheal and I took in Europe on vacation". Or, maybe these are Michael's possessions and you can't take these. Correct me if I am wrong, it is my belief that the Minox cameras, spy cameras, were not available to the general public. They were only for the intelligence community. Minox cameras could only use Minox film. If these were spy cameras only, where would one get the film for their use? Again, Michael Paine the spy in the house? Or, Oswald? Minox cameras were made to photograph up close objects such as documents or photos. This was generally done on the sly and in low illumination, hence, the light meter. They were small cameras easily hidden in one's clothes. They could be used to film something at a distance as a regular 35 mm camera could. But, I don't believe as well. It was suggested by someone that Oswald used his Minox to film U2 photos of Cuba at Jaggers, Chile, Stovall. Actually, they were satellite photos. This fact was routinely hidden in history books and from the public until the 1990s. What did Michael Paine use his Minox spy camera for? Vacation photos in Europe? Home photos near the ocean?

Chris, Thanks for your reply. It strengthens your hand when you speak of that topic. When Dr. Perry said the wound was a wound of entrance, then that is direct evidence. When one of the doctors placed his hand on the back of his head in explaining where the wound was, that is direct evidence. The Parkland doctors were telling the truth as they knew it. There are those who will make all kinds of outrageous claims denying what they said. But, that's just it. Outrageous claims. That type of evidence would be accepted in court and be meaningful.

That is not a claim. It is something anyone can see in the film. As far as providing a motive for it. One can do that generally or not at all. The proof of the alteration is enough to condemn the film as altered. It is just one of many examples of alteration. Talk about someone whose mind is made up! If you convince yourself that someone has to provide proof beyond what they have provided and consistently ask for proof as if it hasn't been provided, then those kind of statements can be made to seem reasonable.

Michael Paine may have owned a Minox camera. But, Oswald did also. There is valid proof that this is so developed by Alan J. Weberman at the National Archives upon a FOIA request. One thing Ron Bulman didn't say. Is why was there a Minox camera case in the photo with no Minox camera on display? It was said to be on top of the camera case. This indicates that more than one photo was taken. If it was in a coffee can then why didn't Ruth give it to the DPD officers when they were there on the 22nd. If that was Michael Paine's camera, it had film that could be 10 years old in it. How so? Well the rest of his photos mixed in with Oswald's were from 10 years in the past. There were fairly recent European vacation photos that one would have to determine were they Paine's or Oswalds. There is one question one might ask. Why were the officers from the DPD confiscating Michael Paine's possessions? He didn't commit a crime, nor was he a suspect in the Kennedy assassination. Was Ruth just a good old girl taking revenge on her estranged husband? Why would she mix her husband's possessions with those of Oswald and give them to the police? And, why did it take so long for Ruth to find and turn in to the FBI the camera? Direct evidence in court is witness testimony or any report they made concerning an incident. DPD officers saw a Minox camera and took it from Oswald's seabag. They reported that is what happened. They didn't change their testimony when pressured to do so by the FBI.

Jim, While I was doing research on the Tippit shooting, I read somewhere that no one actually saw Tippit being shot. Is that true or a claim that can't be supported? This is where that came from: " J D Tippit Shooting Monday, 08 July 2019 05:31 Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer Written by Jack Myers “No one sees the actual shots. A passing motorist, Domingo Benavides, is startled by the gunfire as he approaches Car #10 while traveling west on 10th. In an act of instinct and self-preservation, Benavides turns his pickup to the curb and ducks down behind the dashboard. (Lane, pp. 177-78)” “Cabbie Bill Scoggins sees Tippit fall into the street. A few seconds later, he observes the figure of the young man walking quickly towards his cab, cutting across the adjacent corner property on 10th Street. Scoggins steps out of his cab and hides behind the driver-side fender. The young man emerges from the lawn’s hedges and begins to trot south on Patton Street, still tossing the occasional empty shell to the ground. (Lane, pp. 191-93)”

Chris, Witness testimony or a first hand report is considered direct evidence. This is from the net, "Direct evidence is often used in court terminology to describe evidence that straightforwardly supports the guilt or innocence of a person on trial. Unlike circumstantial evidence, which asks the judge or jury to infer reasonable conclusions, this form of evidence can stand on its own, and does not require any presumption. Video, tape recordings, and some types of witness testimony can be used as direct evidence to support a claim."

A fair summary. I read that only Minox film can be used in a Minox camera. Alan Weberman had the Minox camera film developed by the National Archives. Oswald had a Minox camera. The barracks film and others in the Philippines prove that. And, he had one long before he met the Paines. There should be no doubt that he had one. I asked the question would the DPD officers know what a Minox camera was? Maybe or maybe not. The FBI would certainly know since they were also in the spy business. The photo in question may be one that the FBI requested and one that is missing the camera due to FBI interference. The fingerprints corruption and conclusion between the DPD and the FBI is all over the Kennedy assassination.

Lee in Japan. That's not a problem for either side of the debate.

Weberman in the Oswald Code goes on to say: This shot of a Chinese funeral is important in understanding the film in the camera belonging to Oswald. Michael Paine was never in a Chinese country such as Taiwan, Quemoy, or Matsu. Someone who can read Japanese and Chinese needs to look at the Oswald/Paine military photos and determine whether the scenes of Chinese/Japanese photos are either Chinese or Japanese. Oswald was in Japan, the Philippines, and Taiwan (Quemoy and Matsu maybe). I think I recall someone writing that Oswald may have been in Korea since his records were there. Maybe? Michael Paine was in Korea and Japan, but not China. Paine was in Korea and Japan during the Korean War about 1952-53. Did Michael Paine have undeveloped film for 10 years? The last part of Page 13 is interesting in light of the Backyard Photos. It details Oswald's camera knowledge and profiency.

There is the Minox case and the pedometer. Where is the Minox camera that is supposed to be on top of the Minox case? It's not there. But, we do have cards or items with Michael Paine's name on them in plain sight. Imagine that. Oswald's camera early on is tagged as the Paine camera even before Ruth turns it in. Which leads me to believe this may be a recreated photo to emphasize Michael Paine had a Minox camera and Lee Harvey did not. Can this be proven as a recreated photo? No, in all likelihood this cannot be proven to be a recreation. But, it is very, very suspicious! A question one might ask on the authenticity of this photo is the missing Minox's reality. Was the film found in the camera turned into the FBI by Ruth Paine months later belong to Michael Paine or Lee Oswald? Alan J. Weberman says the film developed shows Lee Oswald and Gerry Hemming in the Philippines. Hence, the camera and film belongs to Oswald. According to Weberman, it is also the source of this photo: We can see exactly what the Minox camera looked like. Paine's or Oswald's? I go with Oswald due to the film that was exposed by FOIA request by Alan J. Weberman shows things like this: Weberman says Hemming is up to no good here by strangling a prisoner or showing a corpse. Not really. What you see Hemming doing is psychological misperception. It is like the next photo. Is it a young lady or old lady? In the Hemming photo one generally sees the head of a prisoner. Not really. If you look closely it is simply Hemming's hand.

As I posted earlier, some types of Minox were featureless. There is a black object, not a shadow since nothing else casts a shadow, underneath the Minox case. Definitely an object there, but what is it?

This is very similar to what they did with witness testimony. They did what they wanted. They were like the 800-pound gorilla in the room. Who was going to challenge them?

Minox cameras had different appearances depending on the model. Here are some of different appearance. There are other models including one that was completely featureless. It had an aluminum case with the only feature was the seam separating the two parts of the camera cover. It was like the Minox C but without an apparent slide feature. When it opened it had controls like the Minox EC. None of these cameras are visible in Greg's photo example. Still, it doesn't mean anything. One could have simply removed the offensive camera from the photo. A Minox camera was listed on the police inventory and one should have been there. Would Dallas DPD officers know what a Minox camera was or what it was supposed to be used for as a camera? The DPD list is very interesting: Either Michael Paine or Lee Harvey was an active field agent. Which one? I go with Oswald. Michael Paine had military service in the Korean War. Did he act as a spy then. No. Why do I say active field agent? Check out what is listed next to the Minox camera. It is a pedometer. Take a picture and measure the distances by walking. Standard spy techniques since WWII. Next question. Is there a pedometer showing in the photo? My answer is yes based on the following appearances of pedometers from that era. They often looked like a pocket watch. We see one in the photo. The light meter is there and the pedometer is there. There is no Minox that I can see.

The weapon in the photo is a standard M1 Garand issued to Marine and Army personnel during the late 1950's. I believe the Army changed to the M14 in 1957 and the Marines later. The M16 came later. It that photo of Oswald with a M1 was from the films developed for Weberman than at least part of the photos found by the FBI were Oswald's. I made the same mistake of thinking the Paine photos were Oswald's photos. I'm still not convinced that all are. There are a number of troops aboard ships I believe are Marines rather than Army GIs. There are definitely army photos mixed in with others. One can identify the strange army hat of that period, the Ridgeway hat. Since Oswald and Paine were both in Japan, and not that many years apart, the scenes of Japanese life can be attributed to either Oswald or Paine. I also have questions about the European vacation photos of the Paines.

JIm, Too true. You might give some sympathy to a 5'10/5'11 difference and think it might be a measuring error. But, not in military records. As I said earlier that height measurement is part of a graves registration identification and used to identify a person.

Richard, I don't think anyone will come up with a better explanation. Thanks for your insight. It is a hand and policeman's hat.