John Butler

Doug Horne was convinced that the body was removed because there was a chance Texas authorities would come on aboard the plane and remove the body. But, does that explanation explain the black hearse, the shipping casket, and the body bag? Were these planned for ahead of time? Dones anyone have a plan or diagram of Boeing VC-137C SAM 26000 Air Force 1's cargo space? Or is that restricted information since I can't find anything on that on Google. Another thing Doug Horne was convinced about was that if Earl Rose, Dallas County Coroner, was allowed to make the autopsy then it would be honest. I don't agree. IMO, the autopsy of Tippit was not honest.

Gil, David Lifton and Doug Horne have pretty much explained what happened enroute to the autopsy and during the autopsy. I have one question. If the shipping casket arrived before the bronze casket arrived would that indicate two different sources of transportation from Dallas? There was 20 minutes difference in arrival. Does that indicate 1 plane or 2 planes. It has been so long since I have read David Lifton I don't remember.

"On 4/30/2022 at 10:48 AM, John Butler said: W. Niederhut replied: Agreed. And how did the Paine's "good Quaker principles" work out for Bell Helicopter profit margins after 11/22/63? Honestly, DiEugenio has the patience of Job to repeatedly take the time to debunk all of the incessant gibberish posted on this forum by the resident Lone Nutter "cognitive infiltration" tag team. Basta per Dio... IMO, anyone who claims that Ruth Paine wasn't working for the Company is living on Planet Posner." One of the missing posts contained this: "Honestly, DiEugenio has the patience of Job to repeatedly take the time to debunk all of the incessant gibberish posted on this forum by the resident Lone Nutter "cognitive infiltration" tag team. Basta per Dio..." I re-posted the bold print in a response to one of Jeremy B's post. Was this offensive enough to be lost? Edited? I don't think so in comparison to some of Jeremy's posts. And, if things were censored, why Jim Hargroves post? Was there a technical problem, or human involvement?

Jim, Your post was exceptional and had material I wanted for later reference. So, I made a copy. I have sent it to you by email. I believe this is the right one for today. I hope someone offers an explanation for this.

Lawerence, I had read that several times in several different places. Whether a FMJ or soft nosed bullet was used had nothing to do with tumbling. The shape of the long Carcano round lead to the tumbling effect at about 2000 fps. It was not accurate enough in early use and so the increase in tumbling was added to fix that problem. The M16 5.56 round at about 3000 fps is a tumbling round due to its high speed. Tumbling was a way to increase the killing power of a small caliber round and was also a way to get around the FMJ agreements. From the net: Steinel’s loading of the 6.5 x 52mm Carcano is unlike other modern loadings of the cartridge. Their offering respects the original concept of the round and provides impeccable accuracy as it was in its original design in 1891. The rifle most associated with the round is probably the Carcano Model 1891/38, infamous for being the rifle that Lee Harvey Oswald used during the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. The rifles at the time were being sold for as little as $29.95 (about $155 when adjusted for inflation). First introduced in 1891, the 6.5x52mm Carcano was used in the nearly 3 million Carcano rifles that were built. The caliber remained in military service until the 1970s at which point it was phased out by many militaries for more modern offerings. Carcano rifles are famous for having a heavy-hitting round for the caliber, however, the first iteration of the 6.5x52mm suffered from poor terminal performance, so later iterations of the round introduced aluminum into the bullet nose to increase tumbling upon impact. "The rifle most associated with the round is probably the Carcano Model 1891/38, infamous for being the rifle that Lee Harvey Oswald used during the assassination of President John F. Kennedy." I don't agree with this statement, or your statement on trajectory. Hydrostatic shock from a high-powered round creates a tremendous pressure per square inch in liquid and semi-liquid material and that pressure must have an outlet.

It has always been my belief that the long 6.5 mm Carcano round was designed to tumble and strike the target in order to leave a larger than .25 caliber wound. Look at Kennedy's back and you will see "key hole" shape wounds left by tumbling Carcano rounds. The Carcano was a medium power rifle with the round traveling at about 2000 feet per second. Higher powered rounds such as the M! 30.06 or Mauser 8Mm traveled at speeds over 2600 fps and closer to 3000 fps. The M14 7.62 Nato round traveled at that speed of 2600 fps. There is the question of collateral damage. High powered rounds such as the ones mentioned above are capable of penetrating metal, or glass, or human bodies and traveling on to do damage to others. With the exception of the head shot, I would think most rounds fired in Dealey Plaza, there could be as many as 10 according to some people, were probably short rounds, rounds with lesser propellant for a lesser velocity so they could be sound suppressed, or would not exit a body once penetrated. If they weren't then Dealey Plaza would have been like a battlefield with more causalities. The idea of causalities other than the intended one wound have to have been considered.

Pat is generally correct, but a lesser amount of pointed tip bullets were made. The question is were they made long ago?

This is an example of Jeremy's outrageous claims that lack any basis in fact or reality. Where's the proof of this? Where is the language or psychological authority for saying this? What professional studies point this out? A birth language is never really forgotten if learned by age 5. It can be recalled and improved. I can't recall the source for this, but it was probably learned in Psychology or Education classes many years ago.

Not only that, but anything anti-Warren Commission, anti-Zapruder film, or any other so-called conspiracy theories.

What Jeremy doesn't understand is talking about the bus and taxi ride leads naturally to Roger Craig's testimony. And, that introduces two Oswalds at the TSBD. Hence, Harvey and Lee information is natural to this thread. Once you sort out those things involving the cab and bus rides and Roger Craig, you will need to look at the larger picture in which the two stories occurred. If you take the witnesses and evidence at face value as you should since they has not been contradicted, then the larger picture involves why were two Oswalds at the TSBD. And, of course this involves the story of Harvey and Lee.

Why? You derail threads all the time with your outrageous, non-factual claims and bold, meaningless assertions such as those above. You derail threads all the time with your vicious insults and ad hominem attacks which you call humor. Can you prove this "incoherent" idea with facts rather than simple statements and assumptions that you think everyone agrees with. Well, I would imagine that spy folks do much worse than a false defector program that was first conceived at the beginning of the Cold War. Refugees were available, why not use them at a later time. What about things like the Gulf of Tonkin and the Northwoods plan and many other things like that. Those two were of the same period. One against Cuba and the other started the Viet Nam war in a larger way. The decision makers in WWII did horrible and terrible things to win the war. Check out the fire bombing of Dresden in Germany. They didn't need an atom bomb. Those in power after the war did the same kind of decision making. It resulted in killing a president. A regime change as it is called.

Yes, but. Were the Paines doing that out of good Quaker principles, or were they working for a government intelligence agency? I vote CIA. And, in the case of CIA or ACLU, I vote CIA. I vote the cameras were Oswald's.

Far too many people don't allow a witness to say what they said and take it for what they said. They have to put their interpretation into the witness' mouth. Marina says CIA. She was a big girl and intelligent. She, in my opinion was a Russian agent, could speak English well enough to say basically what she needed to say. She said CIA and not ACLU.

That would preclude Michael Paine from publicly buying the Minox in 1950.

Michael, If Roger Craig was not a super cop, then he was close to it. He was all over the assassination scene directly after the assassination. He ended up in the TSBD with the Mauser inches from his face. As I said earlier, he blew up the cover up. But, very few think that way. Which of the two Oswalds was on the 6th floor? Or, were they not on the 6th floor, but doing other things. I'm with Jesse Curry when he said he could never put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand. There is good evidence to say that no one fired a shot from the 6th floor. What were two Oswalds doing at the TSBD? One, Harvey I think was assigned to take photos of the parade. That tied him to the TSBD so that he would later become the patsy. The John Martin film shows him under the trees taking photos of the p. limo and then later as Prayer Man in Couch. Lee Oswald was at the TSBD. Or, some one who looked like Lee and Harvey was there. He may have been the one demonstrating to the public that there was an assassin on the 6th floor. But, in my opinion he is the fellow in Altgens 6 known as Doorway Man disguised as Billy Lovelady. This is a bit of a stretch. Harvey may have seen, from his position under the trees, Lee standing in the doorway of the TSBD talking to Bill Shelley. This could be why he said he was standing out front talking to Bill Shelley when the p. limo went by. A lot of this is speculation based upon facts from films, photos, witness statements, and researchers work into the JFKA.

Well said Jim, I usually don't answer comments from Jonathan and Jeremy. I made a copy of your comment in Word. I may, if you don't mind, use this to answer whenever my anti-fans make those kind of remarks. By just about any standard of proof one would have to come to the conclusion there were two Oswalds at the TSBD. And, furthermore the two men looked very much alike so that witnesses to two different events agreed that the man at the two different events was identified as Lee Harvey Oswald (the Warren Commission version) and was the one shot at the DPD. We call this Oswald, Harvey. Then, the one who got into the Nash Rambler must have been Lee Oswald who Roger Craig identified as Lee Harvey Oswald (Harvey) the man he saw at the DPD. It gets confusing, but and this is a big but, Lee Harvey Oswald (as identified by the Warren Commission) can not have been in two places at once. He could not be on Elm Street getting in a Rambler and riding in a bus and cab on other streets at the same time.

Steve, There is so much detail to recall in the JFKA that it is a wonder we get anything right. Richard Price just replied with photo id of the time, the Mcintyre photo. I don't remember ever seeing that. And, I spent considerable time trying to find that very info and couldn't. Thanks again to Richard. There's another problem I believe. That is different accounts of the same thing. Often, one can le lead astray if the other account isn't taken into consideration. Thanks for bring this topic up because it helps clarify my thinking on Roger Craig. Roger Craig blew the cover-up up. It is a wonder he wasn't killed directly after the assassination.

Thanks a bunch Richard, As much as I have studied that photo, I never saw that. Even, If I did I don't remember it. Thanks again. I'll see if I can keep that in my memory banks.

Didn't witnesses say the shooting occurred at 12:30 PM basing this on the sign/clock above the TSBD. But, you will have a hard time proving that since I can't find any photos or films showing that clock at that time during the assassination. There are some after the assassination.

Craig later identified the person he saw run down the hill as Lee Harvey Oswald. The man shot at the DPD who I call Harvey. Other witnesses identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the bus and taxi rider. He had things linking him to the bus on him when captured. This was the man shot at the DPD and who I believe is an unknown double of Lee Oswald. If those times are correct, then you can't have the same person in two different places at roughly the same time. It could be the same time with watch differences in time. The key here for me is that Roger Craig and other witnesses for bus and taxi identified Lee Harvey Oswald, the man at the DPD. In no way is that possible unless the double looked enough like the man at the DPD in features and appearance. Granted, many people have problems with facial recognition, but I don't think that number is really that big. One can only conclude there were two Oswalds at the TSBD.

We haven't devolved into "Harvey and Lee" nonsense. There is no such nonsense, but a well grounded in facts theory on the mysterious Lee Harvey Oswald. This was a comment for David Josephs on his nice pictures showing Lee Oswald, and then I said let's return to the cameras. You are derailing the discussion by sidetracking here. I said nothing about Marina being in the plot. I said Marina had two husbands. She said that in an interview with Nerin Gun working for a French magazine in 1964. 1981 is a lot different than 1963-64 for Marina. If you don't understand that then read up on her life. As best as I can remember at this point Marina said something like I had two husbands. Lee, a kind man and father of my children, and Harvey, a mean and crazy man who killed the president. She said this in the 1964 interview. Marina was a Russian spy. Gun spoke of meeting her in 1963 at the DPD shortly after the assassination. And, then again later in 1964. He remarked on her language ability in 1963 has non-existent and then fairly fluent in 1964. This is all I am going to say on this since I don't wish to side-track this discussion. I find it quite interesting. The things that have developed here are very fascinating.

David, Thanks for these clearer photos of Lee Oswald in the military. These add quite a bit to my ID character traits of Harvey and Lee. 1. Lee Oswald's nose was wider than Harvey's. This is clearly seen in these photos. 2. The double bend of the upper rim of Harvey's ear is not matched by Lee's ear which doesn't have that double bend. The right hand photo gives a clear indication that this is so. 3. Lee's chin is wider than Harvey's and does not have the dip or bend present in Harvey's. 4. Harvey has a receding hairline which he covers up with a comb over. Lee doesn't have this problem. Thanks again David. These two photos are enough to clearly separate Harvey and Lee. And, none of the above look like this guy. Except for the parts of Harvey. Now, back to the cameras.

When did he identify this equipment as his possessions. Because someone placed name tags near things doesn't mean it was his. Could you add more detail to this in order to clarify what you are saying.

Greg, Lee and Harvey Oswald were spies. Lee was more into radar. Harvey was the camera man. Harvey needed that MInox in Russia (of course secretly). The Russians would have known what that was and what it was for. Some of the photos developed for Alan Weberman was from Minox film showing Lee Oswald in the Philippines. So, what does that say? Simply, that Lee had the Minox for a long time. He had the camera before Harvey went to Russia. The two shared various things over time. Clothes, equipment, and Marina. It wasn't a matter if he could afford one. These were given to people who worked in intelligence. His type of Minox was not sold to the public. Are you saying that the other cameras there at Ruth's house were Michael's possessions? I have never heard that before. As far as Oswald owning an expensive Minox, it seems to me you are setting up a strawman to knock down. Let me know if I have misread what you are saying. More than likely Harvey had the Minox when he worked at Jaggers, Chile, Stovall. Supposedly, he was enroute to Cuba on another agent provocateur adventure. He memorized Cuban towns, villages, rivers, mountains, etc. These maps that he was making or assisting Jaggers, etc. were U2 photos of Cuba. The Minox would be handy to copy those photos for later study and memorization.

Always worth reading. This brings back memories on what one would see in a Minox with the camera fully opened. A big question that a lot of folks have not considered is why Ruth Paine allowed her husband's possessions to be taken by the DPD officers. With all of Oswald's cameras, camera equipment, and other items there why was Michael's alleged possessions included? Michael Paine was not a criminal or criminal suspect. He was not charged with a crime or was a suspect.