John Butler

Thanks Sean, Sorry I haven't answered sooner. I have been under the weather with a stomach virus. This is an old idea on the forum. Sandy Larsen did major work on this and gave us conclusive proof of two Oswalds by looking at their teeth. Others, I believe Jim Hargrove and David Josephs, contributed a lot also. My contribution is finding a second photo of Lee Oswald with missing teeth. When that was done the "pen cap" speculation was finished. Examining photos and interpreting what that photo shows is less worthy in courts than witness statements and documentary evidence. However, the kind of evidence presented here is factual and clearly shows that there was a Harvey and a Lee.

Look and see. And further, understand. Sorry, no pen cap visible. I found this on the internet. Looks like my work plus someone else. Are these photos in this montage misidentified? If you are having trouble IDing these then I can provide you with a description of where these photos came from.

I don't believe you stated what was misidentified. Surely, you can see Harvey Oswald's teeth in the 1981 re-examination of his corpse. Do you think that is someone else's teeth? Where is the misidentification when the teeth are clearly labelled? The second inset is of Lee Harvey Oswald's photo in a school yearbook photo. Has that been misidentified? Had the Jenner/Voebel WC testimony been misidentified? You should be savvy enough about the JFKA to see and understand what is being said in the photo montage and understand the evidence. Where are the misidentifications? As far as Oswald's teeth, Sandy Larsen has provided clear and convincing proof that Lee Oswald had a missing tooth. It is hard to argue with facts.

I am afraid it doesn't. You have no facts or proof to back up your description. All you have is distortions. Just like the tooth example proof that Sandy Larsen gave you guys. When you can't face the facts, you go into avoidance. I said we don't know what happened to Lee after the JFKA. You quote that and then go off on what one your rants with little care for facts or any kind of logic. You keep saying this as if this solves everything and in reality it doesn't mean anything or solve anything. Its simply an illogical counter argument and not based on historical evidence. The counter to your argument is why use an American when there were all these immigrants from European countries available. Do you think Harvey and Lee were the only double spies of this project? They are the only ones we know. They already had their native language, like Harvey, so why train someone who would stand out as an American?. Allen Dulles and Frank Wisner were the OSS/CIA people who thought of this idea when they began helping refugees from German aggression in WWII to the US. Special permission was given by the government to use these people after the war.

Yep. Numerous alternative explanations have been presented over the years to counter Lee Harvey Oswalds lost teeth. However, none, have proven to be true. Lee Harvey Oswald lost teeth in a fight at school and he did not miraculously regrow those front teeth. The facts are the facts unless you want to go on about how unreliable witnesses are. You do that a lot when you have nothing left but insults. Harvey still had his front teeth when he was killed and buried. In 1981 he was exhumed and examined. Guess what? He still had all of his front teeth. And yes, who knows what happened to Lee. Whatever happened to Lee I would be willing to bet he still had not regrown any front teeth.

Jonathan, I could have predicted your response. That's revealing of your questionable ability to recognize different people in different photos. I based the identification of Lee and Harvey in those photos upon different facial recognition characters that Lee and Harvy Oswald have. I'll do one so that you won't think this is just guessing or bad skills. We will do the first set: The left-hand photo comes from Robert Groden's The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald. It is a cropped section of the Ferrie cadet photo showing 15 or so year old Lee Harvey Oswald. How do we know this is Lee Oswald? Simple. He has missing front teeth lost during a fight. The right-hand photo is Harvey Oswlad, about 17 years old, in a military photo provided by I believe Robert Oswald. Notice that Harvey has all of his teeth and furthermore he took those teeth to the grave. He is older in this photo than Lee and still has his teeth. There are other things that can be mentioned, but the teeth are conclusive. Harvey was the man shot at the Dallas Police station by Jack Ruby. In 1981, Harvey was exhumed and he still had his teeth. Who knows what happened to Lee.

And, made sure he did not talk and died one way or another. Or, held incommunicado in prison. Or, was placed in a mental institution and fed pyschotropic drugs until his brain was destroyed. Or, given a cancer treatment a la Jack Ruby.

The Many faces of Lee Harvey Oswald I will address this question to the following. Which one of the pair is Lee Harvey Oswald? Mssrs. Jeremy Bojczuk Jonathan Cohen Pat Speers Mark Stevens Robert Charles Dunne Or any other anti-Harvey and Lee fan Lee Harvey Oswald- Left or right? Left or right? Left or right? Left or right? Left or right? Left or right? Left or right? As you can see Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald had many faces. Can you determine which is which?

The witnesses were wrong..... The witnesses were wrong...... The witnesses were wrong....

Jeremy, Mark did nothing of the kind. He simply reaffirmed the notion of Harvey and Lee. He used this photo of Lee Oswald: I agree this is Lee Harvey Oswald. But, Harvey looks differ from Lee's enough and that difference is unmistakable when closely examined. This is why almost all of the photos of Lee were either destroyed or altered into Harvey. Some could not because they had been published in newspapers or yearbooks. They look enough alike and if no one was paying attention they could pass for each other. In memory, that association would come closer in appearance. If you have problems with facial recognition you can consult the ID characteristics I developed some years back for individual character traits.

Steve, Thanks for bringing all of these neat documents back into the discussion. Lee Oswald transforms from Assembler to Regulator. If my memory serves, Oswald rebelled at the pay of an Assembler probably saying I won't do that for that. The Assembler job was assigned on Jan. 1, 1960 before Oswald went to Minsk if I am remembering correctly. He rebelled and was later assigned as a Regulator with much greater pay. This ought to tell one how important Oswald was to the Soviets and how much they wanted his knowledge and expertise at the electro-technical plant at Minsk. Oswald had an incredible wealth of knowledge about radar and the U2. I would surmise there were elements in the Soviet Union who were anti-Khruschev as there were elements in the US spy world who were anti-Eisenhower/Nixon in the peace talks. The U2 was a throwaway. It had out lived its usefulness. It was with the Oswald Project adapted to that purpose to keep the Cold War going. Big money was being made during the Cold War era. The only thing better would be a limited war such as Cuba or later Viet Nam. Two positions can be argued with neither taking the upper hand.

Jim, We are really not that far apart in our thinking. At this point, it is not necessary to make a decision on two Oswalds in Russia. That may come later with more information. This note of Steve's is problematic in the sense of one or two Oswalds. On re-reading this note concerns only one.

Steve, This particular note raises a few questions. I would suspect this was just a formality. The Soviets had determined he would work in the Experimental Shop at the Minsk factory which was far more than a radio and tv factory. If memory serves there were something like 5000 people working there, which most of were working for roughly 70 rubles. Question? Did the Soviets know of one or two Oswalds? The note indicates two and they are named and given different positions in the factory. Supervisor=700 rubles. Assembler=70 rubles. Oswald comes in as a Regulator (read Supervisor) at a salary of 700 rubles. It is the same salary or close to the salary of the plant manager. Oswald is getting more money than the English spy/traitor/defector Kim Philby. OBTW, Kim Philby was James Angleton's constant luncheon partner when he was stationed in the US. It has always been my opinion that the CIA mole hunter was looking for himself. The note on Harvey Lee Oswald as the Regulator and Lee Harvey Oswald as the Assembler is confusing and disturbing. What does it mean? One can take a position here that another cannot overcome through argument. Should it be interpreted literally or use our own judgement?

That's typical Jeremy.

JIm, As I said it is a minority (weak) argument. But, some of the facts seem to indicate just that. I am really not that convinced. I can hold two opposing arguments in my mind until there is sufficient evidence to make a final decision. This argument of mine is years old. It has recently been strengthen by John Newman and Steve Thomas' Russian Document. OBTW, that document smells like a plant of some kind. It doesn't ring true. No. If Lee Oswald entered Russia in would be as a clandestine operation. It would be below the radar of the KGB. Harvey would be at the Minsk plant's experimental shop without the knowledge necessary to make new radar equipment necessary to shoot down a U2. Lee had that training and information. He would need to replace Harvey in their usual manner in order to do that. He would not have to be there long. I think the U2 was shot down on May 1, 1960. Harvey went to Minsk about January 13, 1960. Here's where I go off the beaten path. He may have been there more than once. That would be necessary to be part of Marina's "I had two husbands". Which I actually think is a reality rather than just a mistake in grammar on Marina's part. Now, what I have just said is entirely speculation except for Lee Oswald's knowledge of the U2 and radar. It was superior to Harvey's knowledge. While Lee was at Atsugi with the U2 people in the barracks, and in the "bubble" doing radar work, Harvey was AWOL in New Orleans. This is one of the reasons I think Lee could have been in Russia. I forgot to add a couple of things, "indications", due to memory lapse. Marilyn Dorothea Murret, Lee's cousin, told John Pic in Japan that Lee was in Europe (one note says Germany) prior to the public announcement of his defection. The big question is how did Dorothea Murret know that? How did she obtain that information? Another question is was Dorothea in communication with Oswald on a regular basis when he was in Japan? And, not just with Harvey at Iwakuni just prior to his departure for the US. Sylvia Meagher and Mae Brussells believed that Oswald and the U2 disrupted the 1960 summit for peace.

Jeremy, I don't think so. Jim has worked hard to provide you with the information you were requesting, but as usual if it doesn't fit your bias you ignore and deny the facts. You can do better.

Jim, There is a long period of time from March 19, 1959 to January 20, 1961 where there is very little information about Lee Oswald. We assume he was somewhere in the south ranging from Florida to Texas working on anti-Castro projects. But, that is an assumption, Look at David Joseph's Timeline. It has a long series of blanks for this time for Lee Oswald. I don't know if Lee Oswald was in Russia contemporarily with Harvey. But, there are certain indications he may have been. These indications have gotten stronger within the last few days with the document posted earlier in this thread and John Newman making the statement that he did. My memory is rather foggy at the moment to be detailed and precise. I'll take a few moments to look up these "indications" and make a list for you. Lee Oswald in the Soviet Union: Notes and suggestions that such might be 1. Jim Rizzuto (Steven H. Landesberg, the student) said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg, the actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956. This indicates Lee Oswald was in the service before Harvey, possibly as early as March, 1956. 1a. In the fall of 1956, while HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were stationed at San Diego, LEE Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility at El Toro, CA, 10 miles south of Camp Pendleton. It was in El Toro that Sergeant Wallace Ransberger first met Private First Class LEE Oswald, and a year later associated with him at Atsugi, Japan. Ransberger and LEE Oswald were assigned to the same unit and their duties were to furnish repair parts for vehicles and generators. This indicates Lee Oswald was already in the service before Harvey enlisted. 2. Lee Oswald was trained in aircraft maintenance and repair. He was also trained in radar technology. Lee, compared to Harvey had the superior knowledge of radar technology and U2 information by being at Atsugi, Japan and living in the same barracks as the U2 maintenance and repair crew. He later visited secret radar bases prior to leaving the Marines in early 1959. Lee had access to secret radar technology, codes, flight plans, air defense strategy across the pacific from the Philippines to China to Japan and to California. In other words, key secret technology and secret information spanning the Pacific defense of the US military. This was something the Soviets would greatly desire to have and would be willing to pay for it. 3. David Joseph’s Timeline- Between March 19, 1959 to 1 January, 1961 there are 4 mentions concerning what Lee Oswald was doing during that almost 2 year period. 4. The Steenbarger incident- In mid-October, 1959 Mrs. Louise Steenbarger took a MATS (military flight) to visit her husband stationed in France. The flight involved leaving from McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey. A passenger sitting next to her and her son identified himself as Lee Oswald. He was dressed in a Marine Corps uniform with a name tag, Lee Oswald. Oswald got off the plane in Rhine/Maine or Frankfurt, Germany. 5. October 15, 1959 (Thursday) Oswald arrives in USSR via Finland. Is this Harvey or Lee? Possible Lee since this is mid-October. More likely this is Harvey due to the next note. 6. More information from John Armstrong indicates Oswald, Lee and not Harvey, Steve L’eandes (Landesberg) and Earl Perry were in Europe and Russia. They visited Stockholm, Lennigrad, and Moscow in 1960 and sent postcards. 7. Quotes from John Newman and Peter Dale Scott: PDS (Peter Dale Scott): ... and then, by the way… this is just a question… are you absolutely convinced that the man who was “Lee Harvey Oswald” in Russia was, in fact, the man picked up in Dallas in 1963? JN (John Newman): Not at all. And I’ve gone over to the view that in Mexico City that, maybe it’s him, maybe it’s not. So I’m not going to be dogmatic about it. He could have been there and impersonated or could have been not there at all. 8. Marina Oswald indicated she had two husbands in a French newspaper article. Basically, she said that she had two busbands. Lee was a kind and gentle man, the father of her children and Harvey, a mad man, who was the man who shot President Kennedy. The article is written as there were two men and not psychological states of one man. Since she knew two men one can assume this could both be in Russia and the US. 9. Then there is the Minsk Report of Dec. 11, 1961. This report mentions both Harvey Oswald and Lee Oswald as being in the Minsk factory. Citizen Harvey Oswald was a regulator (supervisor) and Citizen Lee Oswald was an assembler (lathe operator). These 9 statements present a weak case for Lee Oswald being in Russia at some point.

Jeremy, Are you saying there were two Harveys and two Lees? I have always thought there were more than just Harvey and Lee. Are you confirming that? Jim and others have already explained about the OSS and later CIA's interest in foreign refugees and immigrants for possible use in the future. A particular law was passed in order for them to do that. The doppelganger program was already in place when that law was passed. How many agents were established from the immigrants and refugees from Europe is not known. We only know of one, Harvey Oswald the false defector. And we wouldn't have known about that except for the JFKA.

Harvey and Lee were a spy team. They worked in many places together. That was their purpose. That is what the government (CIA) trained them for years to be a double spy team. The records show that Harvey and Lee were separated for a time. Harvey is in the Minsk Experimental Shop as a Regulator. Regulator was the Soviet term for Supervisor. That's why he got the big money. The same money as the Plant Supervisor. Lee activities are more mysterious. There are various records of Lee in Japan at Atsug in 1958. In the same year I believe Harvey went AWOL in New Orleans for most of 1958. There are gaps in his record. This maybe the time that he studied radar and U2 with the US Army. He claims he had two classes with the Army. Why, if he was a Marine? Harvey Oswald was given a Supervisor role in the Experimental shop. According Steve's information Lee Oswald was given a job as assembler at the Minsk plant. Frankly, this throws off the thinking about who went to Russia first as a false defector. The note has both Oswalds in Russia. Harvey and Lee contends that the only Oswald in Russia was the man known as Lee Harvey Oswald (Harvey Oswald) and Lee Oswald was not there. At the beginning Harvey hides his language ability and appears not have Russian language proficiency. On the other hand, Harvey did have Russian proficiency as demonstrated by Marina and others. I do not believe Harvey Oswald could have fooled the KGB on his language ability or any other thing. Nor do I believe Lee Oswald could have fooled the KGB with his record. Whoever was first into Russia must have went through screening by the KGB. Whoever was first into Russia had to convince the KGB with his story and offer an incentive on how he could help the Soviets. I believe this was Lee Oswald and his knowledge of radar secrets and the U2 secrets across the Pacific and in California. In Japan at Atsugi, Lee Oswald lived in the same barracks as the U2 maintenance and repair crew. Lee Oswald was trained in aircraft maintenance and repair. He also was trained in radar techniques. Before leaving Atsugi, he could have assembles valuable knowledge from his radar work and living with the U2 maintenance crew. In 1959 just before he left Marines. he went to various top secret radar bases. The record for Lee Oswald is mysterious with long time periods amounting to months with no information on his where abouts. This was after his discharge from the Marines in March 1959. There is very little information to disclose Lee's where abouts from March, 1959 to January, 1961. He could have been in Russia or Florida or some other place. The records don't say where he was for most of that time.

Jim, Lee Oswald's entire Marine career was about the U2. I did a timeline on the Oswalds military careers. This was helped by David Joseph's timeline and other things I pulled together. To me, Slyvia Meagher and Mae Brussells were correct in saying Oswald was sent to Russian to interfere in the peace talks between Eisenhower and Khrucshev. IMO, the shooting down of Gary Powers was directly connected to Oswald being sent to the Minsk factory as a Regulator. For Regulator read Supervisor rather than lathe operator. Oswald was in charge of the entire new product lab. Or, it was made to seem that he was. I read the evidence speaking of Oswald's language ability as reading for both Lee and Harvey. Lee first with his inability to speak Russian at an advanced level. I don't think this was Harvey hiding his language ability. You can't hide anything from the KGB. Then Harvey later in time to marry Marina. It could be both were there playing their usual game. That is what they had been trained for, for years since they were teens. There is a photograph showing Harvey with I am going to presume are his co-workers at the Minsk shop. The photo was taken just outside the door of the experimental lab. From Marina's testimony it is Harvey she was describing as Alec or Alek who could speak Russian so well she thought he was a Baltic native with a Polish accent and not an American. Lee, If he was ever in Russia was not around by this time, or was which I can't make up my mind on. I've always thought the problems between Marina and Harvey were from the role she played with both men. This is astounding piece of evidence, it true. This would suggest the Soviets knew both Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald, if true. This doesn't read as a mix-up of names.

I can't provide evidence for the films of Elsie Dorman and Patsy Paschal. They were supposedly kept from the authorities yet, we see that Elsie Dorman is one of the most altered films in Dealey Plaza. The same goes for Patsy's film on Main Street. Can you prove that these films and photos were kept inviolate from government agencies? You can't do to the easily seen alterations in the film such as Marie Muchmore, Elsie Dorman, and Patsy Paschal. Who are these government agencies? CIA and the FBI and their hench men at UPI and API. These government agencies are the folks who gave us Operation Mockingbird. That's not much of a straw man argument sentence. "lizard people, or creatures from outer space". There you go again with your fantasies. Denial, ignoring facts, and making proclamations (without factual basis) doesn't work without insults So, how does that work? First is denial, second is ignoring the relevant facts, and then loudly proclaim your false version backed up by insults. As I have said earlier I have Trask's book. I don't think much oft. It is a backup source for the Warren Commission.

Jeremy, If you haven't figured out that I am talking about alterations, then this should ease your mind. Phil Willis' extra-long leg is a sight in the Zapruder film. You won't see that in the Skaggs photo. Phil and Rosemary are easily identified in this Jay Skaggs photo. So, those two must do what I call questionable maneuvers by running down Houston Street and beat the p. limo to the SW corner of Elm. We can see Linda and Rosemary running onto the SW corner of Elm in the Elsie Dorman film. No Phil is seen on the SW corner. This is just a few seconds, perhaps 5, before the p. limo passes their position. How did they beat the p. limo to the SW corner? How did middle-aged veteran Phil Willis make that run also? What I am saying is Phil Willis cannot be in two places at once. In the street of Main and Houston as the p. limo goes by and be in the Jay Skaggs photo on the sidewalk of the NW corner of Houston with his family.

Let me take this a bit farther. Why was a nobody, a wannabe spy, and crazed individual who could barely find employment and keep it impersonated so often? This impersonation from time to time started in 1959 with Oswald leaving the military and continued until Harvey Oswald's death in 1963.

I would say yes. The Oswald, at the time of meeting him, she knew was skilled in Russian to the point she didn't recognize him as a foreigner, an American, but as a Russian with a Polish accent. This particular person we call Harvey Oswald. This is who Marina married. IMO, Marina was a spy and played whatever role was necessary to get to America. If that meant relating to both Oswalds, I think she did what was necessary.

Actually, Peter Dale Scott. It is extremely interesting that after all those years Marina is fondly recalling Harvey by the name Alec, a lover of Turgenev writings. I have to agree with PDS. I believe there were two Oswalds at work in New Orleans. I wonder how the two Oswalds related to Judith Baker? Did they play their usual games? Judith, herself, said she had very poor facial recognition skills.