John Butler

Instead of jumping to the unwarranted conclusion that there must have been photo fakery, why not consider the obvious answer? With that obvious answer being: There are some additional motorcycles in front of the 3 cycles we see in the McIntire picture, and those additional cycles are simply out of the camera range of Mel McIntire's camera. Plus....ask yourself: Why would anyone want to alter the number of motorcycles seen in this photograph? .... Thanks David Von Pein for making my point! There should be 5 motobikes here. They rode in formation. Two are missing. We can't assume anything other than what we see in this photo. Or, you can assume whatever you want. FWIW... I count eight (8) motorcycles riding in front of Chief Curry's Lead Car in this motorcade photo.... There are 8 motorbikes. 3 advance motorbikes followed by 5 lead motorbikes. When you do get to see the 5 lead motorbikes in various media they always ride together and not as a group of 3. I don't know why the McIntyre photo is altered. There doesn't seem to be a good reason for it except to match other films and photos. Can't have a big discrepancy hanging out there for all to see. Edited 5 hours ago by David Von Pein

David Lifton says: "As the 3 cycle officers who led the motorcade emerged from the Triple Underpass, a photographer--McIntyre (not sure of spelling)--was standing somewhere on a grassy island just to the west of the TU--and he snapped an important photograph. It shows the 3 cyclists leading the way, with the chaos erupting behind them--i.e., with JFK's car, Curry's vehicle and others, now racing away from Dealey Plaza, and just emerging from under the TU. If you blow up that photograph, one can get a pretty clear image of those 3 cycle cops, and the general impression that I got (and still "get") is that they are smiling broadly. Perhaps its just the sunny weather? Sure, that's possible, and yes, its possible that they are completely unaware of what's just happened; but I think (as the saying goes) a picture is worth a thousand words, and that further study is warranted. " There should be 5 motorcycle cops there not 3. The 3 Advance motorbikes are in front of the 5 Lead motorbikes. The three motorbikes are the ones we see in Zapruder. The 5 motorbikes come next are not seen in Zapruder and precede the lead car with Jesse Curry and then presidential limousine. Most photos and films show 3. Bell shows 5 in a few frames and also shows 3 as representative of the 5 lead motorbikes. 3 Advance motorbikes in McIntyre shows you that someone has altered that photo. The question is where are the 5 Lead Motorcycles in McIntyre?

Apologies to Bart Kamp for sticking my nose in here. I understand Bart's frustration with the Sarah Stanton Red Herring issue. But, Jim Hargrove seems to be an honest fellow and if "his drivel" is drivel then it should be pointed out in a more tactful manner. I had a similar conversation with Tommy Graves in which he kept badgering me about Sarah Stanton being Prayer Man. I'm with Bart Kamp, it is a ludicrous thought. Speaking of T.G. he asked a question that I didn't answer. I missed it concentrating on Sarah Stanton. I said you can't prove anyone fired a shot from the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. I want to answer that here even though it is off topic. 5th Floor witnesses: Harold Norman- Said 3 shots came from directly above him and he described these in detail. He didn't change his testimony over time. One solid testimony. Bonnie Ray Williams- First said he heard two shots (didn't specify where they were from) when the presidential limousine turned into the Main and Houston Street intersection. He later changed this during 3 more statements until the FBI was statisfied. An iffy testimony based on changing statements. James "Junior" Jarman- Junior initially agreed with Harold and Bonnie that shots came from above their position. He later changed this, when then Congressman Gerald Ford asked about the shooting, to shots that came from low and to the left. A changed testimony offering something different. 4th Floor Witnesses: They were within 40 feet of the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. Victoria Adams- Heard shots coming from the west in the direction of the Grassy Knoll. Sandra Styles- At first said she didn't know where the shots came from. Later, she said they came from the area of the Grassy Knoll. Dorothy Garner- Heard 3 shots while the limousine was under trees in front of the TSBD. Elsie Dorman- Heard shots coming from the Court Records Building. This is similar to Junior Jarman. Under "Mervyn Hagger Standards" of just the facts and legal proof based upon evidence beyond a reasonable doubt then you can not prove anyone fired a rifle from the 6th floor regardless of what witnesses on Houston and Elm said.

Evan, It is great to hear from an American Patriot. Pass on to your grandson my thanks for this service. Not everyone is willing to put themselves on the line.

James DiEugenio, Thanks for the visual. I had missed that bout. I will look it up on Utube and watch the whole thing. I get your point but, the bout shown was absolutely delightful. I can't remember a time that I was not a boxing fan. Thanks again

Thanks David Lifton, Some days Marina is a spy. Some days I listen to better advice and she is not. Thanks again,

Thanks Rich, I know of one. Robert Webster. Could you name the other fellow? Thanks,

Evan, I don't know about Oswald's shooting skills. If he remained a Marine than I suppose he was adequate for an infantryman which means he could hit his man. If the photo showing him firing the M-1 is anything indicative of his shooting skills then he would be amazing. The photo of him shooting the M-1 is textbook perfect and could be used as an illustration of how to hold and fire a weapon.

David Lifton, I don't want to move this discussion off topic but, could you take the time to make a comment on whether you would consider Marina Oswald a soviet spy. That thought is mentioned from time to time with little or no evidence to back it up except her personal history. thanks,

Hi Michael, It is in the AMIPA film of Bob Yeargan. I just reviewed that looking to see if Connally was morose and sullen as shown by David Lifton. He was mostly smiling and waving to the crowd. You will need to do a frame by frame scan using good software. I borrowed the software idea from Robin Unger and use Cyberlink Power DVD 16. I can't post unless I delete from other posts. Connally is mostly waving to the crowd and smiling. But, he is keeping an eye on the upper floors of buildings along Main. You can also see Roy Kellerman watching Kennedy in the rear view mirror. I am not a great fan of motorcade photos beginning with Altgens 5. The one Michael Walton posted earlier has alteration problems and others like the photo on the Crossfire book is suspicious. So, sorry.

Andrej, Also from Wikipedia is the notion that the average length of the human head is 9.4 inches. Your use of 10 inches is extremely reasonable. I don't have a good answer for Oswalds with 13 inch heads. I went back and reviewed the Marine photo. The Marine photo has a height measurement chart behind Oswald's head. It is pretty straight forward and blows up my theory that Harvey Oswald had a normal head and Lee Oswald had the 13 inch head. The Oswald in the picture can be identified as Harvey Oswald with a 13 inch head. My sense of image discrimination says it is not Harvey but all of the signs to identify Harvey Oswald is there. As far as microcephalic brains, there do appear to be a few here and there. I don't have a source for that, just intuition.

Thanks for your reply Mr. Lifton, I believe I have seen that expression on John Connally's face in other photos. It does go well with learning his new seating arrangements for the motorcade ride. One of my favorite films is the AMIPA film. I went back and reviewed it thinking that Connally was mostly morose during the ride. But, the opposite was true enough though his eyes were pointed upwards and not at the crowd many times during the ride on Main St. I believe Connally knew what was going to happen in Dealey Plaza. He didn't like it but he soldiered on with the plan. He had no choice.

From Von Pein, "Oh, yes, I forgot about having to factor in the constant refrain coming from Conspiracy Fantasists of: "All Of These Pictures Are Fakes, Therefore I Can't Use Them To Prove My Point". So sorry." Not all but, most.

Good points Andrej. But, what do you do with the folks that say Lee Harvey Oswald had a 13 inch head based on one of his Marine photos?

David, Sorry for being one. David Lifton's interpretation of John Connally's expression is interesting. I usually don't take the other side or make statements that can agree with the Lone Gunners positions. But, if you look at President Kennedy's expression and block the smile he seems as concerned as Connally. We don't know what is causing Connally's expression. He might have a hemorrhoid problem and is dreading the ride in the jump seat for 12 miles.

You want to play Dueling Photographs, eh? Okay. My turn.... Mr. Von Pein should have picked better photos to make his point. Altgens 5 is heavily altered. He shouldn't have shown the Zapruder frame and contrasted it to the Bronson still frame. The people who make up the area known as Mannequin Row (those people who are lined up between the R L Thornton (light post) area) and the Stemmons Freeway are for the most part not in the Bronson still.

Members 3,514 posts Gender:Male Report post Posted 1 hour ago I keep thinking.of how little LHO meant to the plot. I am of the mind that JFK was going to run into a hit that day, regardless of whether LHO showed up to work, whether the shooters could get a shot off or whatever other circumstances might have came-about that day. There were in all likelihood several back up plans in place, including taking out AF1 if all else failed. LHO is the mouse that has been made into a mountain; and so many continue to probe and dissect that little dead mouse while gargantuan monsters are yet to be identified. Well said Michael, There were at least two other patsies associated with LHO, Bill Shelley and Chauncey Holt. Or, anyone on the 6th floor flooring crew such as Billy Lovelady. I name Bill Shelley and Chauncy Holt from what I call the 3 patsy photo of LHO, Bill Shelley, and Chauncey Holt taken on the streets of NO near the Trade Center. Shelley was arrested but it is later claimed he wasn't. Holt said he was scared to death thinking the boxcar he was in was going to be blown up and he would take the blame for the assassination, if you can believe Holt. Anyway, well said Michael. Kennedy was not going to get out of Dealey Plaza alive and the rewrite of history would begin shortly there after.

This is from some time back in this thread. " On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 11:28 AM, John Butler said: I don't know whether this is helpful but, it is about military intelligence photographers in Dealey Plaza. I somewhere read something about there might have been 50. But, I don't have a source and it might be a faulty memory although I don't think so. https://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012/10/steve-osborn-testimony-re-fort-hood.html You know, this is really interesting. Not just in and of itself. But because as I said, there was reportedly a military camera crew in Memphis when King was killed. But also, when I was researching the RFK case, a guy told me that he knew another researcher on that case who discovered that there was a camera monitor in a hotel room tracking Bobby Kennedy's movement through the hotel, sort of like what they have In Vegas" I use Robert Groden's Assassination DVD from 1995. I know it is old, cranky, and not great imagery by our standards today. But, I believe the imagery is honest. In many of the films on the DVD there are slow scan TV images consisting of lines of pixels. Film does not contain lines of pixels similar to what was available in slow scan TV images of that day. In order to get this imagery into more than a half dozen films, military photographers would have to stand next to anyone with a video camera or close by. This is speculation to account for so many films having SSTV images. This is covered perhaps better with examples in: http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/2017/08/19/were-there-military-intelligence-photographers-in-dealey-plaza/

I don't know whether this is helpful but, it is about military intelligence photographers in Dealey Plaza. I somewhere read something about there might have been 50. But, I don't have a source and it might be a faulty memory although I don't think so. https://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012/10/steve-osborn-testimony-re-fort-hood.html

One of the ways “Forensic Anthropologists” missed the boat is the issue of earlobes / no earlobes. No Physical Anthropologist worth his salt would have missed the identifying characteristics that separates out Harvey Oswald from Lee Oswald. See the high school photo of Lee Oswald and the middle school photo of Harvey Oswald. Let’s begin with a study of usable identification traits. These traits are based on the Harvey Oswald’s, the man killed by Jack Ruby, mug shot at the Dallas police station. This image is from the discussion on the Oswald Project Part I where this is discussed in greater detail: http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/2018/05/05/who-was-lee-harvey-oswald-the-oswald-project-part-i/ In case the notes on this photo are not readable: Earlobes (this is a significant trait) Narrow nose Narrow chin Two bends or crooks in the upper rim of the left ear (this is a significant trait) A wide and sloping downward neck You can also add the following: The left upper, first incisor is shorter than the other incisors (this trait is not that useful since Harvey doesn’t smile that often) Sloping shoulders as mentioned already by David Josephs There are the gross traits and specific traits listed above. When used in common they will identify Harvey Oswald in any photo or move someone into the category of Not Harvey. The specific traits are earlobes / no earlobes and two bends in the upper rim of Harvey’s left ear. The gross traits are a narrow nose, narrow chin, and wide neck. And, you can also add the next 1 and 2 descriptions. Why the category of Not Harvey? It is because most of the photos of Lee Oswald have been destroyed, or, altered into Harvey Oswald or, someone else. An attempt was made to eliminate Lee Oswald from the visual record. The “Forensic Scientists” were for the most part on the right track in saying that Lee Harvey Oswald is the only one represented in pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald. That is if you consider Harvey Oswald as Lee Harvey Oswald. Verification of these traits is seen in photos that convert Lee Oswald into Harvey Oswald such as the Civil Air Patrol photo of Harvey Oswald. The photo editors knew these traits and used them in their work with such as the photo ID of Alek James Hidell. If you run across a photo of Harvey with the left upper rim ear trait but, a broad chin or broad nose then that is someone other than Harvey Oswald and can be placed in the category Not Harvey. Or, if an alleged photo of Harvey Oswald aka Lee Harvey Oswald does not have one of the two specific traits then that is not Harvey Oswald. Now that you are armed and dangerous, is this Lee Oswald or, Harvey Oswald with Marina mentioned in the photo posted earlier? The answer to the question is Not Harvey which could mean C. Lee Oswald or D. None Of The Above. This Oswald double in the photo lacks the specific detail of two bends in the upper rim of the left ear. This is a very distinctive Harvey Oswald trait and if the Oswald in question doesn’t have it then it is not Harvey Oswald. You cannot tell whether this Oswald has an earlobe or not. A suspicious black spot mars the lower ear area of the photo. However, upon a higher magnification of the area one could conclude that there is no earlobe there. The neck is not excessively wide or thick as seen in Harvey Oswald. This might throw you off in determining if this is Lee Oswald. Altogether, this might be one of the rare photos of Lee Oswald that didn’t need that much alteration to disguise Lee Oswald into Harvey. At first glance this looks like Harvey Oswald.

“So let me get this straight - John Butler posts something here and Dave Josephs, who posted "It's all in the sloping shoulders" in the Oswald clone thread [see below], and yet calls *John Butler* useless and also a "Fanatic" while I'm assuming Dave thinks of himself as a "Realist?" Like Bernie says, that IS comedic gold. Put another way - where in the world is "play nice" EF cop Mike Clark when you really need him reporting Josephs on this kinder and gentler forum? And Dave, it's "pathetic" with an "e" and "chaff" not "shaft." Unless you're trying to give Butler here the "shaft." LOL Another of Joseph's comedic gold. You know, separating the wheat from the shaft - HAHA -- On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 7:23 AM, Joe Bauer said: The conflicting testimonies are incredibly intriguing and even more so because of their numbers. I hardly ever gave the "two Oswalds" story much thought and consideration but when one reads all the testimonies it is much harder to dismiss. Regards the Carousel Club photo of a possible 2nd Oswald, this fellow looks a bit heftier ( stronger ? ) than the Oswald we all saw on national TV starting 11,22,1963. And his right ear seems to stick out farther and differently than the arrested Oswald. And wasn't Oswald known as a total teetotaler? The Carousel Club Oswald looks like he's knocked back a few beers and has booze stupid eyes as he ogles the stripper on the stage. The man known as Harvey Oswald, the man Ruby killed, did not drink or smoke, nor did he "beat his wife"... Lee, on the other hand, was bigger, bull necked, fighter, drinker, leader... There is also very good evidence that Lee was gay along with Clay, Ferrie and Ruby... I doubt he'd be ogling lady dancers or even sitting in the audience.... In my work with H&L I've come to find a pattern... Harvey's shoulders are squared off, while Lee has sloped shoulders I believe you will find this to be the case in every instance. Even relaxed, Harvey's shoulders are much higher than Lee's. just how I see it DJ “ This is from Michael Walton’s post and allows me to change to another topic since the fraudulent Zapruder film / Moorman Polarod did not generate much interest. And, I will further risk the ire of DJ or David Josephs. This is a topic near and dear to me. The identification of Lee Harvey Oswald in the visual record. The House Select Committee on Assassinations hired “Forensic Anthropologists” to determine many things. They conducted many scientific studies and measurements. One of the things they determined is that all the photos showing Lee Harvey Oswald is in reality Lee Harvey Oswald and not a double or imposter. I use quotes around “Forensic Anthropologists” because they missed certain things about identifying Lee Harvey Oswald and his doubles. Here is a photo of Lee Harvey Oswald as identified by “Forensic Anthropologists” Can you say this is Harvey Oswald or Lee Oswald using John Armstrong’s dichotomy? Is this : Lee Harvey Oswald Harvey Oswald Lee Oswald None Of The Above Since this photo is of Marina and this was taken in Russia shouldn't we assume this is Harvey Oswald?

Bart, I want to give you a shout out for your work. Great stuff. I tried to do something on this a short time back. I didn’t know of this. You’ve done it all. Truly a good and interesting thread. I thought I had something new but, you were there and had it covered years ago. Thanks for your good work.

Sorry Lawerence, I am not clear on what you are saying. There are two scenes. Z frame 62 and the McBride Polaroid are before the President arrives. They are within a couple of seconds. Z frame 62 is first. In z frame 62 there are 19 people on north Elm between the R L Thornton sign and the Stemmons Freeway sign. The McBride Polaroid taken just a couple of seconds later hardly shows any people there. It is an unnatural situation. The Zapruder scene is a fake. Or, the Polaroid is a fake. First people there then no line of people there. Walton has cut off the relevant area of the McBride Polaroid. Check that against what I posted. And, the Stemmons sign from Z frame 62.

Richard, Here's something I just copied from the net. I echo your suspicions of Jim Featherston. Some conspiracy theorists claim that the Warren Commission took testimony only from witnesses expected to bolster the theory of Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt as lone assassin. Anyone who has studied the Warren Commission testimony knows this is clearly not the case. One obvious bit of evidence against this "See No Evil, Hear No Evil" theory is the Warren Commission testimony of eyewitness Jean Hill -- and the Commission's failure to take testimony from Dallas Times Herald reporter Jim Featherston, named by Hill as a sinister conspirator. Jean Hill was deposed by Commission counsel Arlen Specter in Dallas on March 24, 1964.(1) Hill's friend Mary Moorman had just snapped a Polaroid photograph of the President's assassination, and Hill testified, "There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he had hold of her camera trying to take it with him." "Who was that?" Specter asked her. Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald and -- Mr. SPECTER. Dallas Times Herald? Mrs. HILL. That's right. . . . [He was] holding her by the arm and her camera. and telling her she had to go with him, I started trying to shake his hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we couldn't go, we had to leave." . . . I was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept telling me -- he insisted we go with him and . . . he just practically ran us up to the court house, I guess it is, and put us in this little room . . . we couldn't leave. He kept standing in front of the door and he would let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out.(2) Jean Hill Not only did "Featherstone" hold Hill and Moorman captive in the courthouse, but according to Jean Hill, he also tried to keep her from saying certain things to the press -- particularly her account of a man running up the steps on the grassy knoll after the shots were fired. Mrs. HILL. ["Featherstone"] said, "You know you were wrong about seeing a man running." He said, "You didn't." Mr. SPECTER. Who told you you were wrong . . . Mrs. HILL. Featherstone. . . . I said, "But I did," and he said, "No; don't say that any more on the air." Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Don't say that any more on the air?" Mrs. HILL. Featherstone . . . [He said] that the shots had come from a window up in the Depository and for me not to say that any more, that I was wrong about it, and I said "Very well," and so I just didn't say any more that I ran across the street to see the man . . .(3)

Michael, That is the R. L. Thornton sign rather than the Stemmons Freeway. Did you notice that the tree next to the west face of the TSBD is twice as large as it should be? Thanks for your comments on a certain fellow.