John Butler

I just don't see this happening in any service. There are strict rules about abusing lower ranked GIs in training or on regular duty, whether they are prisoners or not. Bullying by superior ranked personnel is monitored carefully. Never being in a military jail, I can't say what goes on inside a military prison. But, the 20 mile trip to Yokosuka would be in the eyes of the public. I don't see an individual being made to travel 20 miles without shoes or boots. Higher ranking military officers would not allow it. This would be a serious abuse and those enforcing it would have to pay for their behavior. Atsugi was under surveillance from all kinds of groups. At the time the certain factions of Japanese were looking for any excuse to put Americans out of Japan and Atsugi. Being marched from the jail without boots happened when? Could of been the night of the 13th to visit Lt. Trail or, the day of the 14th on he way to Yokosuka? One assumes the 14th without any real evidence.

Jim, I shouldn't have been so cavalier in saying I disagree. I should have said I disagree in part. As always, your comments make good sense. I keep them in mind in case I go wrong or wrong headed. I don't disagree on the sequence of events so much. I do believe that Harvey was not at Atsugi, but at Yokosuga ready to board the Skagit. There is no need for Harvey to get anywhere near Atsugi. It doesn't make sense to risk exposure. The evidence for Harvey at Atsugi is weak. On the other hand, I think they were in the same area at the same time many times. An example would be the TSBD, New Orleans leaflets, and Dallas rooming houses, or safe houses, perhaps. So, it could be that Harvey was at Atsugi getting more training or indoctrination from the Joint Technical Support Group. It might explain his alleged breakdown in Taiwan. The Russians did suspect Harvey had training to resist interrogation. The Dallas Police thought the same thing. He didn't cave after a good beating there. He has more bruises, IMO, in Dallas photos, perhaps more than the Texas Theater photos. The question is how did he get there to Atsugi? And, when? The evidence that Harvey was in the Brig at Atsugi seems to be weak to me. How did he lose his rank as PFC? Atsugi was an inland base for the Japanese Army and air force, before we took over, about 20 miles from the sea. There was a huge cavern, or man made area, under the base. Ideal for secret operations. If he was where was Lee? In the same jail? Roaming around the base when he was supposed to be in the Brig? The following day, on the 14th. Lee is assigned to a rear unit at Atsugi. Harvey was aboard the Skagit on the 14th. This evidence doesn't necessarily put Harvey at Atsugi. The jail time, the Taiwan incident, and Trail's description of Harvey all adds up to the official version of the lone, mentally disturbed assassin. It is Lone Nut material. As such, it arouses some degree of skepticism on my part with the whole document. The part that bothers me the most is after Harvey's break down incident in Taiwan there is no psychological evaluation that I know about. He is just flown to Iwakuni. I would guess to meet the white female Russian spy?

Jim, My take on the FBI is that the agency is little more than a political enforcement agency rather than a criminal investigation agency. I see them in the matter of the Kennedy assassination as little better than the Russian KGB. The Marines may be different and one could ask do Marine officers really get chummy with their enlisted ranks and pay particularly attention to one just out of the Brig? I don't think so. Something I haven't talked about so far is the number of officers and senior NCOs as versus the lower ranks. They are few in comparison. I think it has to do with pay. The biggest expense generally in any organization is the cost of employees. Army TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment; I believe this is the same in the Marines) calls for company officers to consist of a Company Commander (a Captain), an Executive Officer (a 1st Lt.) and 4 platoon leaders (a 2nd Lt.). Out of this list of 6 officers you might have two. If that extra officer is a 2nd Lt. than that individual generally doesn't know much and is generally lost performing his duty. 6 months training in Officer Candidate School really doesn't prepare one for duty in a line company. They are generally over worked trying to compensate for the lack of other officers. The same problem applies to senior NCOs at the platoon level. TO&E calls for 1 platoon Sgt. (SFC/E7), 4 squad leaders (SSG/E6), and 8 Sgts (SGT./E5). Of this list of Sgts. you might have 1 platoon Sgt. (either an E7 or E6) and some number of "buck" Sgts./E5. Most likely 1 per squad. Generally, a 2nd Lt. doesn't stay around long. He is either promoted to a 1st Lt. and moved to another assignment or up to the Company Commander level. At least this has been my experience. I say all of this to say the typical company officer doesn't know much about his personnel. IMO, Lt. Trail knows to much. That's why I question what is being said in this doc. As far on Harvey on guard duty, I think I have already indicated from what we know about his military career he lacked the training and experience for guard duty in a foreign country. You can take that view or another that says this mental break down on guard duty was staged to get Harvey back to Japan and at the right time the US. This may be the case because the incident happens Oct. 4 and he is gone from Taiwan by Oct. 6 and is in Japan on Oct.6. This requires a flight. Was he accompanied by some handler since his mental breakdown would require one since he was judged incompetent. Where is the record that he was examined medically for a mental condition? This particular incident has always bothered me about Harvey's character. Everything from the Russian episode to the assassination indicates Harvey was a cool, calm, and under pressure a stable individual. This was remarked upon by various police personnel in Dallas, TX. On the other hand, "What kind of soldier breaks down and cries in non-hostile territory facing no known combatants?" Another aspect of life in the service is the prevalence of rumors. All kinds that could prey upon the mind of a young man inducing fear and trepidation. Alone on guard duty there is always the problems of thieves. Korean thieves were legendary. Supposedly, they could steal the socks off your feet while you had your boots on. "According to the report, Lt. Trail said he didn’t see all that much of Oswald, but he offered a few details about how he was moved from the brig to the USS Skagit. He said that Oswald was “picked up by a ‘chaser’ with a gun” and that he was “marched from the Marine jail without shoes which seemed odd to him at the time." I see this as bringing Lee to Lt. Trail on the night of the 13th. And, not as being marched to the Skagit at Yokosuka. This is Lee we are talking about and not Harvey. Harvey, on the Skagit must have time to collect all of his possessions, or at least those necessary to survive a trip by ship (including boots) and arrive at his destination with those things necessary to perform his duty. "To me, this all seems reasonably straightforward, and I think we got the report because Hoover didn’t notice the problems it created for the Official Story®. " I have to disagree. This doc indicates things might not be on the up and up. Most things in the letter are vague except for the things that support the idea that Oswald was a misfit, a criminal, and mentally unstable during this time period. It is Lone Nut material.

Jim, Trail and the FBI agent believe there is only one Lee Harvey Oswald. The Lee Harvey Oswald in the Brig on Sep. 13, 1958 must be the Lee Harvey Oswald on was on the Skagit on Sep. 14, 1958 on the way to Taiwan. I have two notions on this FBI doc. Either Lt. Trail did not know Oswald and he was just remembering a name on a form and some vague memory of a person being brought to him on the night of Sep. 13, 1958 and translating this into some kind of firm memory for the FBI agent. Or, on Dec. 5, 1963 while writing up this 302, the agent did what many FBI agents did in the past and will do in the future from this time. Change things to suit him. Trail indicates he didn't know Oswald well. He implies that he served with Oswald in Taiwan from Sep., 1958 to the following year in Jan. or Feb. Either the FBI assumes this or was led to believe this by Trail. Whatever, it is true they did not know Oswald well or his history at that time. Harvey Oswald was barely in Taiwan for any length of time. He arrives there on Sep. 30 and is gone by Oct. 5 or Oct. 6, 1958. That is a week! The events in this letter don't care or recognize that there is other evidence saying Lee Harvey Oswald was assigned to a rear unit at Atsugi on Sep. 14, 1958. Or that he was overgoing treatment for VD during most of the month at Atsugi and not in Taiwan. The third paragraph tells you this is more "let's frame Oswald as a lone nut" type of information. I doubt seriously that Trail knew Oswald at all. One night in Atsugi and one week in Taiwan, if that. The FBI agent may have confronted Trail with documentation saying he saw Oswald on the night of Sep. 13. And, should have known him at Ping Tung, Taiwan. And, Trail complied with that information. This doc is date 12/5/63. Where did the FBI agent get his information about Oswald if he was leading this interrogation? If not Trail's information is vague. Is it trustworthy? The FBI agent still got what he wanted in paragraph 3.

David, "John... please comment on the CORPORAL TEST he took 15 JAN 58 and PASSED ?!?!? there is a line thru it yet IDK what that exactly signifies..." I believe that in the Marines just as in the Army you have to go before a promotion board if one becomes a NCO, even if the lowest rank. Lance Corporal/E3 may be considered a NCO in the Marines. I don't know. I do know from personal experience with being in charge of a small group of regular Navy people tests and promotion boards were the way they were promoted. They had no qualifications on time. If you took the test (any time during service) and passed you were promoted. That crossed out test would be like the PFC rank. Crossed out and no longer applying. Just a guess. You and Jim have been talking about Harvey and Lee being at Atsugi at the same time. My take on the information is that Harvey was never at Atsugi. Here is what I put in my timeline. Check and see where I went wrong. September 14, 1958: Harvey and his assigned unit sail for the South China Sea. How Harvey arrived in Japan and came aboard his ship, the USS Skagit, is a bit murky to say the least. There is a 20 mile difference between Atsugi and Yokosuka, Japan. Lee’s at Atsugi and Harvey’s at Yokosuka. And, that is as close as they come to each other in Japan according to records. Who knows what events occurred and went unrecorded. Note: Sometime between July, 1958 and Sept., 1958 Harvey rejoins the Marines. When and Where? Did he just show up in Japan and board his ship after a year as a civilian? It could explain his subsequent behavior on guard duty in October, 1958. He did not have the experience to deal with guard duty in a foreign country. Sept., 1958: According to Harvey and Lee: “Harvey was beginning the process of assuming the identity of LEE Oswald, which began aboard the USS Skagit en route to Taiwan. Marine Corps Unit Diary 151-58 (744) shows that (HARVEY) Oswald departed with this unit en route to Taiwan on September 14.” Note: This Marine Corps Diary shows Harvey was at Ping Tung, Taiwan. He is listed as a PVT. He was a PFC and this suggests he was reduced in rank for his AWOL to New Orleans for close to a year. Note: How does Harvey re-enter the Marines and show up at the Yokosuka Naval Base to join the Skagit? Atsugi, where Lee is at and is 20 miles from Yokosuka where Harvey is at the same time. Did he come from California or Texas? Did he return to the Marines and was Courts Martialed for being AWOL for about a year? When was he reduced in rank from PFC to PVT? September 13, 1958: Lee Oswald is brought with other Marines to his unit by brig guards and was watched there. Lt. Ken Trail offered this information about Lee Oswald. Lt. Allison claims that a rifle was found in his locker that was not turned in from guard duty. There is no arrest record for either event. Note. Neither of these events would have kept Lee Oswald from boarding ship in Yokosuka. Well, except the ship sailed on the 14th and Lee Oswald was still at Atsugi. Harvey is the Oswald that boards the USS Skagit. September 14, 1958: Lee Oswald is assigned to a rear unit at Atsugi. Note: The assignment to a rear unit at Atsugi and the alleged VD treatment from September 16- October 6, 1958 is the reason some people say Lee Harvey Oswald never went to Taiwan or was later assigned to Iwakuni. They use information on only one Oswald for this belief. September 16- October 6, 1958: Lee Oswald makes repeated visits to the Atsugi Station Hospital for treatment of an alleged VD episode. He actually has a UTI, or Urine Track Infection eventually treated by a sulfa drug Pyridium. Note: Lee Oswald must be the rarest of military people in have had VD, shooting himself with a gun, and having it marked as “in the line of duty”. September 30, 1958: Harvey Oswald arrived in Taiwan on September 30. There he was (from Harvey and Lee) “observed by Lt. John Donovan taking photos of troop deployments, fighter aircraft, ammunition bunkers and F-86 aircraft”. Note: F-86 fighters were obsolete by 1958 and were replaced by newer and superior aircraft. This replacement jet was also of the F series known as Century Jets. This jet had a different appearance. September 30, 1958: Harvey's unit arrives in Taiwan, where he suffers a nervous breakdown and is sent back to Japan. When he leaves on October 5 or 6, 1958 he would have been there for about a week. His stay at Iwakuni, Japan could have been for a similar time period. In neither place was there time to take two training classes he mentions in a note. His mention of these training classes would be bogus. The only time he could have taken two training classes with the Army is during his stay in New Orleans in 1958. Not likely. Note: Jack R. Swike in The Missing Chapter says that Lee Harvey Oswald was never in Taiwan. Others have said the same thing using just the information on Lee Oswald at Atsugi. These folks are simply wrong by omission and commission. October 4, 1958: From Harvey and Lee: “On the evening of October 4, Lt. Charles Rhodes heard four or five rifle shots coming from the direction of the position that Oswald was guarding. Rhodes ran toward Oswald and found him slumped against a tree, shaking, and crying while holding his rifle. He kept saying that he just couldn't bear to be on guard duty. Rhodes reported the incident to his commanding officer and two days later Oswald was sent on an 800 mile trip back to Japan. Marine Corps Unit Diary 158-58 lists Oswald in Ping Tung, Taiwan on October 6.” And: “Following his "defection" to the Soviet Union, HARVEY Oswald discussed his assignment in Taiwan with reporter Priscilla Johnson, who wrote news articles about Oswald and his "defection." A naval message of November 4, 1959 reported that Oswald served with Marine Air Control Squadrons in Taiwan. In 1964 The Warren Commission received a memorandum from the Assistant General Counsel for the Department of Defense that stated Oswald had been stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan.” Note: Harvey and Lee provide extensive evidence that Harvey Oswald was in Taiwan at Ping Tung and was ordered back to Japan on October 6, 1958. It is believed that he returned to Japan on October 6, 1958. He must have traveled by aircraft if that is so. October 6, 1958: Harvey Oswald does not join the radar unit at Atsugi, but is assigned to a Marine Squadron at Iwakuni, Japan. Meanwhile Lee is still at Atsugi so Harvey could not go there. Note: According to Harvey and Lee, “Owen Dejanovich, who first met HARVEY Oswald at radar school in Biloxi spent time with him at Iwakuni”. Did Dejanovich really meet Harvey after a year separation and actually did not recognize the difference between Lee and Harvey? Did he think Harvey was Lee? From Harvey and Lee, “Dejanovich thought that Oswald had grown bitter toward the Marines” It may be that Owen Dejanovich did not realize that the Oswald he thought that he knew was Lee, but recognized Harvey as Lee. They were not twins, but did resemble each other and after a year separation that recognition of a remembered person may have dimmed. Oswald’s behavior towards Dejanovich may indicate he knew Lee at Biloxi, and not Harvey. Crossfire by Jim Marrs says Dejanovich and Oswald met at Iwakuni. According to Dejanovich, Oswald had changed into a different and embittered Oswald. Dejanovich was rebuffed and avoided by Oswald as Dejanovich tried to renew the acquaintance formed at Biloxi, MS. He further states that Oswald was raving constantly about American Imperialism. This description by Crossfire of the meeting of Oswald and Dejanovich suggests strongly this was Harvey Oswald. And, Dejanovich new Lee Oswald at Biloxi, MS. Dejanovich relates that Oswald kept company with a round-eyed Russian Girl. This accompanying a round-eyed Russian Girl occurred for a short period of time. Romance or Spying? Was Harvey at Iwakuni more that a week? Was this time enough for romance? Could this have been his cousin, Marilyn Murret, who was in Japan at the same time? October, 1958: Harvey Oswald left Iwakuni for the US sometime at the middle to end of October. Harvey’s stay at Iwakuni was not long. This could have been as little as a week. Lee Oswald leaves Japan on November 2, 1958 aboard a ship. If Harvey did the same and left in October by ship his stay at Iwakuni was for about a week. October 29, 1958: According to Harvey and Lee, “Marine Corps medical records confirm that HARVEY Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility in Santa Ana, CA on October 29.” Note: Harvey Oswald arrives at Iwakuni, Japan on October 6, 1958. He leaves there some time in October to be at Santa Ana, CA on October 29, 1958. Did he fly or take ship? From Yokosuka, it is at least at 2-week trip by ship to the US. If we assume his trip was as lengthy as Lee’s trip on the USS Barrett, then Harvey could have left Iwakuni, Japan on the 16th of October making his stay at Iwakuni about 10 days. October 31, 1958: Lee Oswald receives his last overseas rating and his ordered home to the US. November 2, 1958: Lee Oswald departs Japan by ship, the USS Barrett in Yokosuka, Japan for a 13-day voyage to San Francisco. Harvey's at Santa Ana on Oct. 29, 1959. Interesting dates. Another "smoking gun"? November 15, 1958: Lee Oswald arrives in San Francisco. November 19, 1958: Lee takes 30 days leave. Note: The entries listed above indicate that Lee Oswald was at this transfer unit for about 4 days. This information is not accurate enough to determine where Lee Oswald was during this period, 16 November, 1958 to 21 December, 1958. December, 1958, pre-Dec. 22: Harvey and Lee mentioned Lee Oswald was assigned for a short period of time in December, 1958 to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, Area 2 (Lake Meade Marine base north of Las Vegas). Lake Mead Base was a storage and transfer area for nuclear weapons which were tested at the Nevada Test Site. This information would have been valuable to the Soviets. And, there were other Nellis complexes were in the area. This may have been for just a couple of days before Dec. 22, 1958 when he returned to the El Toro base. Or, it could have been longer depending on how he spent his leave.

David, That is strange. The promotion date (since they are sticklers in everything else) should be April 24, 1957 (could be April 25 according to how many days has Oct. To lazy to look up) I checked out the promotion code as follows: I think that may explain the date by using a "minimum of six months service". Because of reluctance on the part of the Company Commander, secretarial slowness, or some other reason the delay to May 2, 1957 is reasonable in the sense it meets or surpasses the minimum requirement. Still, the promotion date should be in April 24 or there abouts regardless of whether it took some time to make the promotion. This is important for the proper pay on promotion and pay records. By using May 2, it is possible that Harvey could be cheated out of about 8 or more days of pay. What I don't understand is why is this promotion line crossed out? Crossing that out says it is invalid. Is that because of the 29 April 1958 demotion to private In Japan. Could be. The next promotion to PFC is in March, 1959. This is Lee instead of Harvey. Harvey's orders to Japan/Taiwan are for a Pvt. Oswald if I am remembering correctly. I speculated he was reduced in rank for being AWOL in New Orleans for about a year or less. There is no record of this and there should be. He is a Pvt. in his shipment orders Oct. 6, 1958. Some one suggested the CIA/ONI could wave their magic wand and reduce Harvey to match Pvt. Lee Oswald in Japan. You have in your timeline Aug., 1959: Chief Warrant Officer Edward]. Spahr was a non-commissioned officer (NCO) who tried to help Oswald with his hardship discharge. On August 17, with affidavits, statements, and a Parent's Dependency Affidavit, PFC Lee Harvey Oswald submitted a request for a dependency discharge to the Commanding Officer, MACS-9, MWHQ, 3rd MAW, Santa Ana (MACS 9), CA. 59-16 NOTE: Curiously, ON the Dependency Affidavit WHERE MO LISTS HER CHILDREN IN THE SERVICE was in the name of Oswald, Harvey Lee This is PFC Harvey. He checks out of the Corps as Pvt. Could you check this source. This maybe another mix up of the two Marine Records. Lee is out in March, 1959. For this exit from the service to work, Harvey would have had to be reduced in rank after Aug., 1959. There is no record of this either. There is just the promotions and reductions record that Jim posted earlier. Oswald, Harvey Lee? Freudian slip?

Jim, I'm not that sure about anything concerning Oswald records. Oct. 24, 1956 to May 1, 1957 is 6 months and about a week. So, that couldn't have been Harvey in late 1956 or early 1957. Early, I would take as the first quarter (3 months). Upon graduating from basic training young Marines earn the rank of Private (E-1). Most enlisted Marines hold this rank for 6 months before they are promoted to Private First Class. (I interpreted this as 6-8 months) Moving up the Marine Corps Ranks: Company commanders have the authority to promote active duty enlisted Privates (E-1) to the rank of PFC (E-2) once they have completed six months of service. This promotion is virtually automatic for those who meet the basic promotion criteria. It doesn't mean that everyone gets promoted at 6 months service. It depends on the judgement of Company Commanders who rely on the judgement of their senior NCO's. Privates (E-1) to the rank of PFC (E-2) once they have completed six months of service.

David, I'm having a hard time reading this chart: In those days a service member had 30 days leave per year. I think this is true for the Marines as well as the Army which I am more familiar with concerning leave. From Oct., 1956 to Oct. 1957 would be Harvey's first year in service. The numbers are not making sense to me. How many days leave did he have that year?

Marine Corps MOS 6741 is Aviation Electronics Operator. Google seems to be playing games again and is not supplying this information. Every search result is missing "operator". The point here is that Pvt. or Pfc. Oswald in the service in late 1956 or early 1957 had basic training (two sections requiring about 4 months- in the Army this is called basic and advanced infantry training- the marines are all infantry men plus other training) plus two MOS trainings including, aircraft maintenance and repair, and aviation electronics training at some point in time. Basic training and at least one MOS training would more than likely be done before a duty assignment. This could be up to maybe 6 months. IMO, this would still put Lee in the service before Harvey. Harvey didn't get promoted to Pfc. until May 1, 1957. IMO, this does not fit late 1956 or early 1957. The Marines, from the records shown, were sticklers for time served. The information saying Lee left the service in March, 1959 is correct. I have not seen any information refuting this. If so please come forward with it. Don't show me Harvey leaving the service in Sept., 1959. Lee's term of enlistment like Harvey's and everyone else volunteering in those days was for 3 years. He would not be let out early except for extraordinary reasons such as a hardship discharge, attending school with 90 days of discharge, or mental problems, physically unfit for duty, or dishonorable discharge. And, there is always the CIA/ONI connection to consider. Any FBI agent who had been in the Marine Corps would know of their policies on promotion. I had speculated on the "Pvt. or Pfc" notion in an early post. Nothing was said about that. No corrections were made. The balance of the information would say that Lee Oswald was in the service before Harvey. Then there is the problem of Tujaques New Orleans in 1956. David had Lee there from Jan. to Aug., 1956.

Jim, Well, this is the first time I have seen this FBI doc. The information I had seen before states "PFC" and not "Private or Private First Class". This makes this notion like many other things in the record iffy. The second FBI doc is reported correctly in the information I have seen with "late 1956 or early 1957". Oswald had a Marine MOS of 6400. This describes that MOS: The following examples are provided: direct support repair accomplished at the organizational maintenance activity (OMA) which is normally accomplished on aircraft, e.g., replacement of the radar antenna on the aircraft; indirect support-repair accomplished at the intermediate maintenance activity (IMA), which is normally accomplished off aircraft, e.g., radar system module repair, and repair/calibration of the radar support equipment. Marines entering the OccFld receive MOS 6300 for OMA, and MOS 6400 for IMA, Basic Avionics Marine, and then progress through specific hard skill MOSs and ultimately are assigned MOS 6391, Avionics Maintenance Chief. Qualifications initially include technical proficiency in the repair of one or more electronic systems after completion of formal training. This stupid editor won't let me delete some object below. I'll continue in the next post.

Jim said, "Fascinating. I never knew about the six month service required before a Marine could obtain the rank of PFC." Actually, it is 8 months. There is some kind of rank less status period where you are not a Private for the 2 or so months in Basic Training. When you graduate from training you become a Marine and a Private. Otherwise you are out. This is shown in the time that Harvey changed from a Private/E1 to a Private First Class/E2. Harvey's promotion to Private First Class mirrors this policy. From Oct.24, 1956 to May 1, 1957 is 8 months for Harvey Oswald to be promoted to Private First Class/E2. David's note in the Timeline has Lee at El Toro when Harvey enters the service in October. If we apply this promotion policy to PFC Lee Oswald then he would have entered the service 8 months earlier or there abouts. This would be in March, 1956. Guess when Lee left the service after a 3 year enlistment? You got it!. March, 1959. These details tie into the story of Marguerite seeking out her old time friend and Mafia lawyer, Clem Sehrt, in New Orleans for advice. (This was something I didn't know and the reason I reposted this information) It is possible that Lee did not fail in his attempt to enter the Marine Corps early at age 16. Maybe it was just said that he did. Enlisting in New Orleans would put him at Paris Island, SC for training and keep his Marine Corps records separate from Harvey's. This would not be a big deal for the CIA/ONI to arrange. This also suggests that there maybe more to the Steve Landesburg (actor) and Lee Oswald story than most people credit. The problem with this is Lee Oswald is supposedly working for Tujaques in March, 1956.

Smoking Guns! Lee Oswald And Harvey Oswald And Their Rank Anomalies From David Josephs Timeline for Oct. 24, 1956. This is the day that Harvey Oswald enters the Marine Corps. “While Harvey Oswald was at Boot Camp in San Diego, there are indications that Lee Oswald was also in the Marine Corps and assigned to the Marine Corps Air Facility (MCAF) at El Toro. Sergeant David Wallace Ransberger recalled that during his initial tour of duty at El Toro in 1956, he became acquainted with a Private First Class Oswald.” On this day, Oct. 24, 1956 Harvey enters the Marine Corps with the rank description of Private/E1. He won’t earn that rank until completing training. Obviously, there was some kind of status for pay. On Oct. 24, 1956, is at or on his way to boot camp at the training center for the Western U. S. at San Diego. This explains why it took Harvey Oswald 8 months to become a PFC/E2. This is impossible situation for a single individual named Lee Harvey Oswald. The situation is best explained by the Harvey and Lee theory. It is one of the many “smoking guns” of the Harvey and Lee story. Why is this impossible? Here is the Marine Corps policy on rank currently in force. It is the same as that in 1956. From the Internet: “Upon graduating from basic training young Marines earn the rank of Private (E-1). Most enlisted Marines hold this rank for 6 months before they are promoted to Private First Class. Moving up the Marine Corps Ranks: Company commanders have the authority to promote active duty enlisted Privates (E-1) to the rank of PFC (E-2) once they have completed six months of service. This promotion is virtually automatic for those who meet the basic promotion criteria. Private First Class (PFC): This was Lee Oswald’s rank in Oct. 1956 at El Toro. Private first class is the second enlisted rank in the Marine Corps. The rank of PFC was established in 1917 to mirror a similar rank added to the Army structure. Moving up the Marine Corps Ranks: Like the promotion to process to PFC, Marine Corps company commanders have the authority to promote active duty enlisted Marines to the rank of LCpl (E-3) when they have completed nine months, Time-in-Service, and eight months, Time-in-Grade. Lance Corporal is the third enlisted rank (E-3) in the Marine Corps. The rank of Lance Corporal was permanently established in 1958, but the term dates back to the early 1800's.” This rank structure suggests that Lee Oswald entered the Marine Corps at least 6-8 months before Harvey. This would be sometime in May or April of 1956. This could be as early as March of 1956 because Lee Oswald was discharged in March, 1959. His term of enlistment was for 3 years. May 1, 1957: Harvey Oswald is promoted to Private First Class/E2. This date is more suitable for Harvey’s promotion to Private First Class/E2, since at this time he has been in the Corps for at least 6 months. October 24, 1956 to May 1, 1957 is about 8 months. Lee Oswald is supposedly a PFC in the fall of 1956. Lee Oswald may have obtained an early out to go to a foreign college. On March 4th, 1959, Lee applies to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland. This application could have been used as an early out for school, but the term is for the following year. There is more information that suggest a Part 2 to the “smoking gun” rank differences. On March 9, 1959, Lee is promoted to Private 1st Class/E2 again. Harvey’s discharge papers say he was a Private. So, Lee is promoted 10 days before he leaves the service, but Harvey isn’t and remains a Private/E1 until he leaves the service. On March 19, 1959 Lee Oswald discharged from the Maines with rank of PFC. On September 11, 1959, Harvey is released from active duty in the Marine Corps. His rank is Private/E1. What other evidence is there that Lee Oswald entered military service at least 6 months before Harvey Oswald? It could be 8 months due to becoming a Private/E1 after two months of training. Before getting into other information one needs to know where a new recruit will be trained. New recruits living east of the Mississippi River will be sent Paris Island, SC. New recruits living west of the Mississippi River will be sent to the recruit training center at San Diego, CA. Why is this important? It may suggest where Lee Oswald entered the Marine Corps and why his records are different from Harvey’s. HSCA Vol. 9, pp 99-100, paragraph 444 has information on Lee Oswald’s attempt to enter the Marine Corps. The information provided says that Marguerite Oswald contacted a long-time friend and attorney in New Orleans, Clem Sehrt. Lee had been pressuring Marguerite to falsify his birth certificate so that he could enter the Marines before his 17th birthday. She asked Sehrt if this was possible. He refused to advise her, but indicated a lot of boys join the service before their legal entrance age. This may refer to Lee’s failed attempt to enter the service at age 16. Later he may tried again and succeeded. Lee Oswald was connected to high level Mafia figures in New Orleans such as Carlos Marcello and his uncle, Dutz Murret. Sehrt’s law firm represented Carlos Marcello. These people, through Marguerite, could have been influential in getting Lee Oswald into the Marines at 16 years of age. It is a possibility that Lee Oswald entered the Marines in New Orleans and was assigned to Paris Island, SC for training in the summer of 1956. An early enlistment for Lee is in accord with his higher rank in the Marines than Harvey in the fall of 1956. Why Paris Island, SC for training. He may have enlisted in New Orleans and was sent to Paris Island. There is a second piece of controversial evidence concerning the actor Steve Landesberg that suggests this may be so. Steve Landesburg, an actor on the Barney Miller TV show, was claimed to have known Lee Harvey Oswald at Paris Island, SC in the summer of 1956. This was the claim of Steve Landesberg (student) going by the name of Jim Rizzuto. The FBI got wind of the story and picked up Steve Landesberg (student), alias Rizzuto. Essentially, Rizzuto said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg (actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956. This is essentially the story he told the FBI. After his Marine service he kept in touch with L’eandes by post card. L’eandes sent post cards from Stockholm, Leningrad, and Moscow in 1960. L’eandes was accompanied by Lee Harvey Oswald and Earl Perry in their journeys around Europe and Russia in 1960. Rizzuto was told by L’eandes that Oswald was back in the states and had gone to Texas. Rizzuto said that around October, 1961 L’eandes, Perry, and Lee Harvey Oswald had gotten back together and by December were creating disturbances at a Mark Lane rally. In early 1962, L’eandes and Earl Perry were creating a violent disturbance at the American Jewish Congress. He stated that Lee Oswald was taking pictures at the event. He believed that L’eandes and Oswald lived together on East Eight Street. Another controversial aspect of this story puts Lee Oswald in Russia in 1960. Is this true? Could be.

Thanks Tracy, I thought I remembered you had something different. The caption on the photo says February, 1958.

Thanks Ron, I got a big kick out of that. I’m just like Credence. I like to sit on the back porch and listen to Buck Owens.

It's all in the details. This montage has Lee in Texas hunting in Feb., 1958. Lee was at Atsugi, Japan during that time. A short time later he is in the Philippines in March or April, if memory serves. However, Harvey over in New Orleans was available for most of 1958 to make a quick trip to Texas and go hunting. According to what I am seeing Lee doesn't return to the US until about 16 Nov. 1958. I may be mistaken about Lee and military leave in Feb. 1958. I can't find anything about it in David's timeline, Tracy Parnell's time line (I'll have to check this), or my own. The Lee and I must be Robert. How trustful was Robert on two photos in question? Of course this has to be Lee to Robert if there is no Harvey.

Kirk, The secrecy of those satellite programs was still secret in the 1990s when I was still teaching American History. The photos in the history book showing the Cuban Missile Crisis and missiles were said to be taken by U2s. They were not. This was satellite imagery which was finally admitted later. I don't know about the U3 and when it became operational. The net doesn't say much about it. If they started work on it in 1959, I don't think it would be operational by early 1960. Steve is correct about the fear of the Russians being able to eventually shoot this plane down. I think the fear that this might happen goes back to when the U2 became operational in 1955. This is why I think the two Oswalds were rushed into the military at age 16 and 17. Two boys to be later used in the U2 shoot down. Their training in service had to do with radar operation, electronics, and aviation maintenance and repair. Their duty stations were at super secret military installations that had to do with U2s and radar such as Atsugi, Japan. The U2/U3 and the A11 were totally different planes. The A11 went on to become the SR-71 Blackbird which was the fastest plane and highest flying plane in the world back then.

I take your point. However, I don't think any of the photos below age 5 are Lee Oswald. I think most are Harvey prepared for people like us, at least the ones I have seen, are of Harvey. In some, he is added to the photo. This is not hard work for photo editors. That's how they make their living whether in Hollywood, the CIA/FBI, or down at the Dallas Morning News, just to use that newspaper as an example of newspapers in that day, and other organizations like that. Photo editing can change features such as heads, shadows, highlights, whole bodies, and any image in a photo. Or, in the case of Mannikin Row in the Zapruder Film a whole group of people. We are talking about two different Harvey's. One is a two year old boy who seems to be well fed and well cared for an another, a 13 year old boy who was not well cared for physically. I think Dr. Hartog is over stating the case. In no photo of Harvey is there any resemblance to a real concentration camp victim. Or, even a starved out WWII refuge. I disagree on the boy at the Bronx Zoo. You and David agree this is Harvey Oswald. He is well fed, muscled, and has no appearance of a concentration camp victim. Any other picture I have seen of Harvey in his younger years does not resemble a concentration camp victim. Dr. Hartog's description of Harvey I say is part of the basis of the Lone Nut gunman theory. As a psychiatrist he is lacking, reading his description and motivations, I've come to believe he is over rated as a medical person and a psychiatrist.

David, That is just one characteristic of several that are to be used together to figure out who's who. Here's another I recently added concerning hair. Harvey Oswald’s Receding Hairline I have said for years this is not Harvey Oswald. The appearance between this photo and others concerning Harvey Oswald was too extreme. Particularly, in other versions where the facial features are marred. Mainly because of the receding hairline shown in this 1958 photo. However, if you study Harvey’s appearance carefully you will see that he has two come overs to hide this receding hairline. If you don’t see this receding hair pattern from at least 1958 to 1963 or the comb over style that Harvey used later, then there is a possibility that person shown in the photo is not Harvey Oswald. Here is a montage that will show these traits From Russia With Love. Here is another example: Harvey’s face, but not his hairline. Another example of From Russia With Love.

David, "you got it backward John.... the first photo we have identified as NOT LEE but HARVEY is the Bronx zoo photo supposedly taken by Robert in August 1953." I wasn't speaking about the boy at the Zoo. Speaking of the boy at the Bronx Zoo. I am like John Pic. I don't know who that is even though Robert Oswald says it is his brother. The identification of the baby photo of Harvey Oswald is based on these characteristics for the mugshot of Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Station. I've added a few others since this photo was made. Characteristic No. 1 and No. 4 are hard to get around and say well, that doesn't matter. The ears are the same. As far as Me saying this is a Hungarian waif. Not. What I am saying is this boy had nothing to do with the Oswalds until about 1945-47 or there abouts. Lacking a better explanation I am back at the FBI Tippit phone call doc.

Steve said, "This tells me that as early as December of 1958, the Air Force was already working on contracts to mount cryptographic equipment in the U-3. If Oswald defected to the USSR in October of 1959 and revealed to them information on the U-2, he was giving them outdated technology that our country was already phasing out. To tell the Russians how to shoot down a plane at 70,000 feet meant nothing. It was a throwaway. Besides; the spy world being as it is, the Russians probably already knew that." Probably not. Oswald was at several U2 bases which were ultra top secret. And, state of the art Radar bases also ultra top secret. Any U2's at these bases would have been state of the art. The A11 didn't replace the U2 until later times. The A11 becomes the SR-71 Blackbird which was and still is the fastest plane ever flown. The U3 was not the plane shot down by the Russians. Because you announce the need for a new and better version in 1959 doesn't mean you get it at that time, but later is always the case. There's a lot of time between early 1960 and Oct. ,1962.

There is many connections between Harvey and New York Communists. Who did Harvey want as his attorney? John Abt (if my memory serves). John Abt is Gus Hall's attorney. Hall is the leading communist in New York at this time. "With GE owning EBASCO... and GE's close ties to the government at the time... AND both Ekdahl and EBASCO being in NY the same time Marge et al are there.... and the Fuhrman's and the Tippit call and HUNGARY and then back around to the IRC... " Speaking of Hungarian waifs, does this look like a refuge child. It is definitely Harvey and not Lee. Granted this picture could be taken in Hungary, but how did the Oswalds obtain it for use from a refuge child? This looks like American studio photography. "With GE owning EBASCO... and GE's close ties to the government at the time... AND both Ekdahl and EBASCO being in NY the same time Marge et al are there.... and the Fuhrman's and the Tippit call and HUNGARY and then back around to the IRC... " I'm glad you brought this up. I'm having skepticism bouts on the Russ Geck experience. What did he tell us that we didn't know or suspect? …. "Summer 1947 is starting to make a little more sense now.... " I am assuming by this that you mean Harvey was acquired in the summer of 1947 or before the summer. …. The FBI doc says there was an interview of Mary Fuhrman. Is there a copy available. Can't find one on the net.

David, For the Arizona photo of Lee or Harvey, is it Harvey or Lee in your estimation, and what is the exact year, if possible? Did Marguerite and Ekdahl really go to Mass. in 1945 for 6 months? What I am trying to get a grip on is when did Marguerite gained control of Harvey. Was that in 1945 or 1946 or 1947. I use a set of characteristics generally 5 or more to identify Lee from Harvey. These include a narrower nose than Lee, narrower chin than Lee, and unattached earlobes. I believe I see those features there in this photo and perhaps this is Harvey and not Lee. I believe your timeline has nothing earlier than 1947 for Harvey. There is for sure your note that the Benbrook School is full of contradictions.

David, This info puts to rest the minor disagreement. This info says Nancy Lee Oswald was perhaps from another state or a fictional person. That means altered records and no real reason to do so? How reliable is the FBI report. They have been known to move their evidence in the direction they like. And, what they liked was Lee Harvey Oswald with a birth date of 10-18-39 and no Harveys or Nancys or other birth dates. Something is going on with the Oswalds that really is not that visible or even suspected from their genealogy. I don't think you could pass Harvey or Lee off as a girl, Nancy Lee Oswald. I posted Lee and Marguerite's photo in Arizona. This has Lee or Harvey, I don't know which since the photo is not sharp, I suspect Harvey, at about the same ages as perhaps the first or second grade. Whoever is in the photo, would not pass for a girl.

This photo popped up in a genealogy research. I'm not sure from who. I failed to note who.