John Butler

Jim, That's a wholly owned google production. I just did a screen capture of the google search result. It's not the first time my photo showed up in a google search in an odd context. I rarely see anyone else from the Forum. I have to ask the question "Why me"? I'm trying to put something together on the relatedness of Harvey Oswald, John Abt, and Louis Weinstock. These characters come together in a few incidents. An idea rattling around in my head is that Abt and Weinstock, although apparently were seen as dedicated and radical communists, were also informants to the FBI. Not only that, but Weinstock would have to be in on the Oswald Project if the Tippit Teletype is true. Abt came under investigation by the FBI in 1943. They knew he was a member of the Ware Group , a part of the Golos/Bentley spy networks. When Ware died in the 1930s, Abt married Ware's widow. Ware was never tried or convicted of being a communist spy. The excuse given was that the FBI lacked evidence although there was a ton of evidence. Evidence from witnesses that put other communists in jail and some executed. So, this suggests to me that Abt was protected from prosecution. Abt defended Weinstock in several court matters involving communism. In particular, in the first Smith Act case of importance against communists in 1949. This is probably the reason Weinstock did not leave with the Gardos for Hungary. Abt is the lawyer that Harvey Oswald requested at the Dallas Police Station. Abt testified to the WC in what has to be a record for a short testimony by the WC and especially Rankin. He said Oswald probably heard or read of some case where he defended communists. And, this is exactly what Oswald said. I believe Oswald was referring to the Smith Act case against Louis Weinstock. I ran across an article on the net listing FBI records that had been sent to the National Archives. Those records listed were not there. There are no listings in NARA for John Abt or Louis Weinstock. NARA It was said NARA has these FBI records. A search for revealed they do not have these records. 54965 = John Abt 26018 = Louis Weinstock (General Manager, The Worker) 549651 = John Abt (CPUSA attorney) While working on this stuff I ran across another interesting thing. Bill Harvey, of CIA fame, interrogated Elizabeth Bentley and handled her case during the years 1945 and 1957 when he was with the FBI. It's a small world, the world of Harvey Oswald.

This memo would necessarily have been written after or during the autopsy from what is being discussed in this memo written on the 22nd. If this memo is true and not something written at a later date it would have to be composed some time between the autopsy and midnight of the 22nd. PS I hadn't noticed it at the time, but the memo is dated in time to 9:18 PM when Belmont talked to SAC Shanklin in Dallas. He must have been getting information almost as it happened. Belmont was an Asst. Director of the FBI. Some think he ran the entire Kennedy Assassination investigation and cover up. I don't see this with J Edgar there in charge. Hoover would have known and approved all of it.

How noisy was the crowd, the motorcade, and backfiring of motorbikes due to traveling at a slow speed? I think I remember someone saying, perhaps Jackie Kennedy, there was a lot of noise from backfiring motorbikes and motorcade noise. Ron Bulman in a post sometime back suggested the De Lisle carbine as an assassination weapon. The De Lisle carbine, a British WW2 .45 assassination weapon, was the quietest sniper weapon available. The working of the bolt mechanism was louder than the sound of the weapon firing. Subsonic weapons with that kind of potential could have been used. The forehead/hairline wound of Kennedy could have been made by such a weapon. Temple Logic? has a fair discussion of Kennedy's head wounds. Here's what I said in Temple Logic?. I may have to eat a partial meal of crow here. Report post Posted April 28, 2019 Oh No!! Say it isn't so!! Not another one or two!! 1. A shot to the left temple 2. A shot to the right temple 3. A shot to the upper right forehead (frontal bone rather than temporal bone) 4. A shot from the front which makes a massive occipital wound as seen by Parkland doctors 5. A shot from the Sniper's Nest blowing out the top and right side of the skull 6. A shot to the base of the rear skull- an entrance wound 7. A shot to the top / rear of the skull about midway center of the school . There is a picture of this wound or is it a scab or bloodspot. Which ones are real and which ones are imaginary in that alternate reality we call Dealey Plaza. Doug Horne I believe said three. That might be a good estimate.

Here's something I thought was particularly amusing. I have made it into the ranks of famous communists. Karl Marx, Freidrich Engels, Vladimir Lenin, and Mao Zedong (as it is now spelled). Who's missing? Joseph Stalin.

I, like most believed that Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. That is until in 1975 when CBS aired, with Dan Rather, a 4 part documentary titled CBS Inquiry: The American Assassins. The first 2 hours were devoted to Lee Harvey Oswald and the Kennedy assassination. It's the part that told the story of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Jaggers-Child-Stovall company that made me sit up and pay attention. It was exactly as you said, what was a defector to Russia, dishonorably discharged Marine, Castro supporter, and communist activist doing working at a place such as JCS? Even if he had nothing to do with the secret activities at JCS, he should have had nothing to do with the company and not been hired. It rang false and still does. Particularly, the part about JCS doing aerial photography on Cuba there. The fiction in those days was that the aerial photography was done by U2 planes. It was actually done by satellite photography. This was ultra top secret in 1963. This was a secret in classroom history books up until the mid 1990s showing Cuban missile sites photographed by U2s. The story of Oswald at JCS, the backyard photos, and the idea that nobody can without a reasonable doubt say that a rifle was fired from the Sniper's Nest, convinced me that Oswald was a government agent and framed for the assassination of JFK.

Think about it for a minute. Would you want a crew such as Allen Dulles, David Atlee Phillips, E. Howard Hunt, Frank Wisner, Richard Bissell, Tracy Barnes, Ann Goodpasture on your back telling you that you should be doing what they want you to do rather than what you want to do. This is 1953 and this cast of regime changers and assassins are in charge of the Oswald Project. There is not much these fellows wouldn't do to advance their agenda.

No worries. Always glad to get your viewpoint. Too much time on a fellow's hands is a blessing. It gives one time to think. Very true. But, the question remains on who was responsible for Harvey's appearance. By 1952 Harvey had been under Mysterious Marge's care for 5 years. It's probably a problem that can't be answered. Yep. I totally agree. What were they doing out there? Your idea of hiding out there is a good one. I have been through North Dakota many times on the way to Wyoming and Montana. I discovered in about the year 2000 that the western deserts of Wyoming are full of semi-precious rocks that jewelry can be made from and lots of fossils from several different geologic eras. I just found the area around Rock Springs, Wy. very likable. Summer and winter views of the area are totally different. When the snow covers the ground you are reminded this area is up in the mountains at 7000 feet. Yep. North Dakota is a place to avoid except for hunting rocks and fossils.

Excellent point. I apply this also to the 2nd and 3rd floor corner offices near Houston of the TSBD.

Jim, What did you think of this notion?

Jim, IMO, the intelligence agencies at all levels have never really let "spying on the public forbidden" get in their way.

Thanks John K, I don't think anyone in intelligence or government agencies like the FBI ever took the prohibition on spying in the US seriously during any time period. It's like the FISA courts keeping anyone from spying on American citizens. How did that work out?

The first floor window is open or it has been darkened. The simpler idea is there is nothing there including no crossbars. Why? The first and second floor windows at the fire escape would be a bad choice for a shooter. Wouldn't you have to shoot through the fire escape to hit a target on Elm Street? Shooting form these windows doesn't make sense when you have many others to choose from. The guy on the steps really does look like a spotter or coordinator just like the Danny Arce appearing character on the street. There are so many things that can be challenged in Altgens 6 it is hard to take it seriously. The Dal-Tex building does not appear to be manipulated as the rest of Altgens 6.

Jim, Go to this net address for immigration facts during WW2. It is a treasure house: http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/archives/collections/franklin/?p=collections/findingaid&id=505

I watched a video on Roosevelt and intelligence. William "Wild Bill" Donovan created a plan and reported this plan for Roosevelt's approval. Roosevelt was delighted. This plan would have agents slip chemicals into Hitler's food which would cause his mustache to tall out and his breasts would grow like a woman's. Doesn't that sound familiar. Why throw away a good idea if it didn't work the first time? Obviously, Allen Dulles must have been involved in that and the Castro thing. Frank Wisner is in charge in 1948. The Oswald project is already in progress. Remember David J. says that the first appearance of Harvey and Mysterious Marge in in July, 1947. Allen Dulles is out for a year or two in politics, but Frank Wisner is still in the intelligence service in the surviving organizations that mutate into the CIA. In 1948 Dulles is back in and Wisner's boss. There must be some time for the Gardos to have possession of Harvey for the Tippit Teletype unknown caller to know of that. This FBI document, if true and I have no reason to think that it isn't, tells us that the Gardos, Weinstock, and Blair are government agents. And, they are part of the Oswald Project if they are raising Harvey, the Lee Harvey Oswald that the unknown caller said was the son of Emil Gardos. This limits the time for the Gardos to do that. They must have done this prior to July, 1947 going as far back as 1942 when Eleanor Roosevelt brought 52 orphan refugees to the US. So, the time period stretches, in possibility, from 1942 to 1947. 1942 is the approximate time for toddler Harvey's studio photo. Robert Oswald or the Oswald family must have gotten this photo from an intelligence agency. There is no way the Oswalds could have this photo except through the government. The photo is definitely Harvey, the man shot at the Dallas police station by Jack Ruby. During this time there are many possibilities for speculation as to what really happened. Like most things in the JFK story things are open to speculation and controversy. There are facts that can be stated, but they don't give you the whole story, but simply outline what is going on and to figure out the rest can only be done by inference. Inference is an inferior product to hand to people to explain the story. But, at this time what else do we have? The two photos of the Oswalds as toddlers about 3 years old could throw a spike in the wheels of progress. They suggest Harvey may not be a war orphan refugee. Or, on the other hand the photo of Harvey, a studio photo, may have been done in France, Italy, or Switzerland. Or, it cold have been done at the time of the 52 orphans came to the US in 1942. Or, Harvey may be a home grown product. These photos might have been used to select the two Oswalds for the project. Lack of facts leads to speculation that relates to distant facts such as the bringing of refugees to the US. Harvey's proficiency in Russian may mean he was a descendant of Russians, or folks from countries like Poland or Lithuania. Poland had in the east had a large Russian speaking population that was given to Poland from Russian territory after WW1. The pack between Stalin and Hitler was to recover the territory taken from their countries by the establishment of Poland after WW1 by the Big Four. What the Big Four in really did was set up WW2 and every major war since. Or, he could be a descendant of Russian Jewish communists. Or, simply he could be from a family of Russian communists and not Hungarian at all. I say this because the unknown caller in the Tippit doc did not know the whole story. The whole story says the son of Emil Gardos, John Gardos, is not Harvey Oswald. She did not know that. The belief is that the unknown caller was a foreign woman or a person who had a foreign accent. This may or may not be true. A smart operative would be able to fake an accent and an old woman's voice. This why Mr. Tippit heard one kind of accent and Mrs. Tippit heard another. The unknown caller must be someone involved in intelligence or the communist movement in the US in New York City during the years mentioned in order to have this info. The Fuhrman's are out unless something or someone can come up with new information. They need to be kept in the loop and researched further. They wouldn't know the whole story involving the what was going on either. The idea that when Harvey was in New York about 1952-53 and some doctor says Harvey looks like a starved out refugee is not tenable. Mysterious Marge had Harvey in her care for 5 years by this time. Harvey's health and appearance would depend on Marge's care. Harvey's weight and general appearance in 1952 or so could not be used to prove he was a refugee prior to July, 1947. This thought has been there for some time. I thought I would go ahead and express it and see what folks say. Sorry, I was only going to mention the Roosevelt and Donovan story and got carried away.

In Harvey and Lee there is this passage concerning the year 1953: ….Almost immediately CIA media assets and the US Congress labeled Arbenz a Communist threat and got the Organization of American States (OAS) to condemn the Communist infiltration of the Americas. The US Ambassador reported, "Unless the Communist influences in Guatemala were counteracted, Guatemala would within six months fall completely under Communist control." The CIA sprang into action with agents David Atlee Phillips, E. Howard Hunt, Frank Wisner (Chief of Covert Operations), Richard Bissell, Tracy Barnes, Ann Goodpasture, and Col. Albert Haney (field commander). They worked under the supervision of CIA Director Allen Dulles and drew up plans for Arbenz's overthrow, known as "Operation Success" (code name PBSUCCESS)…. Doesn’t this sound like a good cast of characters for the continuing Oswald Project?

Harvey and Lee has this down fairly well as far as refugees go.

Young Harvey, the refugee, on the way to Oswego, NY in 1944. Just kidding. But, it could have happened that way.

War refugees were being brought to the US as early as the late 1930s. Here is an example of children brought to the US in 1942: and, And interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyAN1O3Dv7M

Jim, Something to add to your files: Daily Beast: CIA and FBI Spied on Americans and Immigrant Refugees as Early as the Late 50s Frank Wisner and refugees Soon after World War II ended, the Department of State recognized that there was a huge, untapped pool of Eastern European refugees. Harnessing them to fight the communists they hated was the brainchild of Frank Wisner, a former Wall Street lawyer turned Office of Strategic Services spy and the State Department’s expert on European war refugees. In a secret February 1948 policy paper, Wisner and his study group recommended that the National Security Council sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees. The NSC took Wisner’s advice. This secretive use of refugees was probably done in secret during the war years and after the war prior to obtaining a legal status. The legal status for this was more than likely prompted by the red scare and President Truman’s March, 1947 order concerning communists, his so-called Loyalty Program. The authority to use refugees came from the Executive Order NSCID No. 14. Frank Wisner worked under Allen Dulles in WWII and after the war.

Even better.

Roast shark? A good laugh. I like it.

It's hard to say. Looks like part of the fire escape. Sure you are not confusing that with this: The window is open with some sort of curtain or mesh screen loose at the bottom. One other windows looks this way.

This doesn't have to be replied to either. It is just a reference for someone who wants to research this at another time. The Oswald Project/Defector Program began with WW2 Refugees in Europe Men in the OSS who may have known or had something to do with WW2 refugees and the Oswald Project’s origins. James Murphy- The X-2 Counterintelligence was led by James Murphy, whose branch would have the power to veto operations of the Special Operations and Secret Intelligence Branches without explanation.[ Allen Dulles- was assigned by the OSS to Switzerland during the war. He obtained much of his intelligence information from refugees from all over Europe who came to Switzerland. Dulles developed a pro-active strategy for counterintelligence: “Wisner emphasized his own, and Dulles', views that the best defense against foreign attacks on, or infiltration of, intelligence services is active measures against those hostile services. This is often called counterespionage: measures taken to detect enemy espionage or physical attacks against friendly intelligence services, prevent damage and information loss, and, where possible, to turn the attempt back against its originator. Counterespionage goes beyond being reactive and actively tries to subvert hostile intelligence service, by recruiting agents in the foreign service, by discrediting personnel actually loyal to their own service, and taking away resources that would be useful to the hostile service. All of these actions apply to non-national threats as well as to national organizations. If the hostile action is in one's own country or in a friendly one with co-operating police, the hostile agents may be arrested, or, if diplomats, declared persona non grata. From the perspective of one's own intelligence service, exploiting the situation to the advantage of one's side is usually preferable to arrest or actions that might result in the death of the threat. The intelligence priority sometimes comes into conflict with the instincts of one's own law enforcement organizations, especially when the foreign threat combines foreign personnel with citizens of one's country. In some circumstances, arrest may be a first step in which the prisoner is given the choice of co-operating or facing severe consequence up to and including a death sentence for espionage. Co-operation may consist of telling all one knows about the other service but preferably actively assisting in deceptive actions against the hostile service. Noel Field- He worked under Allen Dulles in the OSS. Field worked in France and Switzerland to save the children of Jewish communists and Anti-facist refugees of all kinds, Germans, Russians, Hungarians, and other east European. He worked with other organizations in France to send children to the US and other neurtral countries. He was a communist informant (spy). Frank Wisner- served in the Office of Strategic Services in World War II in Romania. And, headed the Office of Policy Coordination (OPC), a clandestine intelligence unit, from 1948 to 1950. In 1950, the OPC was placed under the Central Intelligence Agency and renamed the Directorate of Plans. Accused of having an affair with a communist agent by the FBI and cleared by the OSS. William Casey- Head of the Secret Intelligence Branch for Europe James Angleton- Angleton and Helms probably became involved after WW2. Richard Helms- Helms began what he would spend most of his intelligence career doing: planning and directing espionage operations from an office in Washington. In this case, the target was Germany, and the agents were run out of Central Europe and Scandinavia. Early in 1945, Helms got his first overseas assignment, in the London office of OSS’s espionage branch. Working under (and sharing a Grosvenor Street flat with) William Casey. Others: George Mandel, aka Giorgio Mantello, who during World War II had traded in Jewish refugees. …. It was Mandel who had been the official founder of PERMINDEX. Ferenc Nagy- One time leader of Hungary. He was involved with helping refugees during WW2. Founder of Permindex. Andree Salomon- Andree Salomon, as the OSE (Œuvre de secours aux enfants or Organization to Save the Children) delegate to the Gurs and Rivesaltes Concentration Camps, in 1941 started to supervise all the preparations for the emigration of Jewish children from the camps to the U.S.A. …. These children travelled by themselves directly to the United States, leaving their parents behind…. These children are members of that group of Holocaust Child Survivors who are "One Thousand Children." Most of their parents later were murdered by the Nazis. There were many other Europeans who worked to save the millions of refugees in WW2. The Golos/Bentley Soviet spy networks that had penetrated the OSS. Each of the important agencies of the OSS that could have had something to do with the Refugee/Oswald Project were penetrated by communist spies. Secret Intelligence Branch (counterintelligence was a part at the beginning) Counterintellligence Branch X2 Research and Analysis. People who were involved or probably knew what Counterintelligence was doing are William Donovan and his close aid Duncan Lee as top leaders of the CIA. William Donovan established a strong, close connection sharing between the Secret Intelligence Branch and the Counterintelligence X2 Branch. Duncan Lee- Top aide to William Donovan. Communist spy. Secret Intelligence Branch: David K. E. Bruce Whitney Shepardson William Casey Richard Helms Arthur Goldberg- alleged communist spy Counterintelligence X2 branch- Orginally part of the Secret Intellligence Branch. James Murphy- Norman Pearson- communist spy Allen Dulles- Switzerland Frank Wisner- Romania James Angleton- Britian Research and Analysis: James Phinney Baxter William Langer Maurice Halperin- communist spy Donald Wheeler- communist spy Carl Marzani- communist spy Leonard Mins- communist spy Soviet Spies: The Golos/Bentley Networks that had penetrated the OSS Possible Government agents and informants/Former Soviet Communists Emil Gardos and Grace Gardos Louis Weinstock Fred Blair

This really doesn't have to be replied to. It is just something I ran across on the internet. It is an old topic much debated in the past on the Forum. I found this at: Lee Harvey Oswald in Russia An Unauthorized History from the Kennedy Assassination LEE - MARINA HEIGHT DISCREPANCY EXPLAINED This supposedly explains the height discrepancy in this photo: People will go to any lengths to prove their ideas right. At first this fellow thought Marina was Lucy Petrusevich, Marina's girl friend. But, no that wasn't so. Then he uses Lucy Petrusevich and his field producer, Olga to show it is just the difference in height is according to where they were standing. It is a phony setup. Camera angles are different. The exact spot is, where Marina and Oswald are standing is not the same. This is shown in a wider example of the photo. Notice the red line. Marina's left leg and foot are at the same elevation as Oswald's right leg and foot. There are no differences in height close to the wall or away from the wall. Compare the same leg positions in the Lucy and Olga height comparisons. Just a fraud and another attempt to discredit the notion of a double Oswald. Actually, in this case a triple Oswald. Marina in 5'2" or 5'1". She is not wearing flats, but heels. This can be clearly seen in this photo. There about 2 " heels which would make her about 5'4". Still not tall enough for a 5'9" or 5'11" Oswald. This Oswald doesn't even look like Lee or Harvey. The Short Oswald looks like the Draft Card Oswald. I have named this fellow Alek Hidell. Marina is something else. She might be taking care of 3 Oswalds.

John K, There is contradictory information on Louis Bloomfield. Is this another Louis Bloomfield and one that is not comparable to the Louis Bloomfield you are speaking about. Louis Mortimer Bloomfield Louis Mortimer Bloomfield, the son of Harry Bloomfield, was born in Canada, about 1910. A Zionist, Bloomfield joined the British military and served in Palestine as an Intelligence Officer under General Charles Orde Wingate. Bloomfield was involved in training the Jewish army, Haganah (1936-1939). President Franklin D. Roosevelt established the Office of Strategic Services in 1942. Bloomfield was recruited and given the rank of major. In 1947, the OSS evolved into the Central Intelligence Agency, and Bloomfield continued doing contract work for the new organization. He was a regular visitor to Israel and met the Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion on 4th May, 1949. A successful lawyer he worked for years at the law firm of Phillips and Vineberg in Montreal. He was also a major stockholder of Permindex, a corporation based in Switzerland. He was also the author on several books on on international law including The British Hondurus Guatemala Dispute (1953) and Egypt, Israel and the Gulf of Aqaba (1957). In Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal (1970) William Torbitt claims that the assassination of John F. Kennedy was organized by Bloomfield and Permindex. Also involved included Defense Industrial Security Command, organized by J. Edgar Hoover and William Sullivan. Torbitt claims that Bloomfield was in control of the operation. DISC agents included Clay Shaw, Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Jack Ruby. This is from an interesting article at Spartacus Educational: https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKbloomfield.htm