John Butler

Thanks for pointing that out. I misread what was said in the doc. After doing a google search, I dimissed this thinking Zguritza was in northern Russian. I couldn't make the connection to the Black Sea area and Zgurita, Moldova. I would guess that Marina's step-father would have been assigned to that area in Moldova as part of this duties. Further reading says that they returned to Leningrad (St. Petersburg). There is roughly 1200 miles between Arkhangelsk and Zgurita, Moldavia.

Over in another thread the conversation about Prayer Man is starting up again. Bart Kamp posted about Oswald and I picked this out of the WC testimony of Geneva Hines. "Miss HINE. One day I said to Mr. Shelley, "Who is that queer duck you have working down here" and I said that Just as a matter of slang because I've known Mr. Shelley for a long time and I was just talking to him, you see, and usually, all the boys that work down there speak to me because I have to go down here to pick up the little "comp" or gift slips on my desk. Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze so I just made that remark to Mr. Shelley because I had spoken to him so many times and he never answered. Mr. BALL. What did Shelley say?" 394 Miss HINE. He said that was just his way." This with other examples fits my notion that both Oswalds were working the TSBD at the same time. Not continuously, but from time to time so that one Oswald could step into the shoes of the other when necessary in their work. We had heard this before from others and IMO this could mean that the voices of the two Oswalds were different. One loud and boisterous and the other quiet and reserved. It might have to do with regional accents also. Actually, this is a more northern pattern of behavior then southern. Is that meaningful. I don't know. Not reacting and not speaking to people that spoke to you would be a good way to avoid people and for people to not pay attention to which Oswald was present. By inducing people to not pay attention to you would be a good way for the two Oswalds to avoid people noticing they really did look identical. So, someone not paying that much attention would shrug off the thought that that particular Oswald wasn't as remembered. It has to be Lee Harvey, uh, who else could it be and walk off. This is a company of roughly 70 people who are basically strangers to the new hires in for the beginning of the school year. Geneva noticed that Oswald was odd, but never really give it a second thought once she had talked to Shelley. It seems Shelley was the goto guy for problems or information. Perfect for keeping the cover of Oswald or Oswalds. Shelley, his old buddy from the Trade Mart days in NO, La.

Marina was born in Severodvinsk, Russia in July, 1941. This is before the US entered WWII. Severodvinsk is a port city on the White Sea, a part of the Artic Ocean, in Artic Siberia about 495 miles from St. Petersburg. Then, as an infant moved to Arkhangelsk which is further to the south but still about 450 miles north of St. Petersburg. This is Artic Siberia. No wonder she did not want to return to someplace like this in Russia. WWII action with the Germans missed this area except for convoys. Wikipedia has this to say: "The Arctic convoys of World War II were oceangoing convoys which sailed from the United Kingdom, Iceland, and North America to northern ports in the Soviet Union – primarily Arkhangelsk (Archangel) and Murmansk in Russia. There were 78 convoys between August 1941 and May 1945,[1] sailing via several seas of the Atlantic and Arctic oceans, with two gaps with no sailings between July and September 1942, and March and November 1943." Arkhagelsk is not a port, but Severodvinsk is. Looking at the info generated a random thought. Could the US be involved with spying in this area once Lend Lease convoys began voyaging to the port of Sevrodvinsk and others. I would suppose so, but this doesn't mean their was contact between the OSS and Marina's family. Just a far-fetched could be. Of the 23 relatives of Marina only a few are male. It could be there were others who vanished into the Russian Western Front against the Germans. Marina, prior to 1952 is alleged to have went to school for 4 years at Zguritza, Russia before moving to Leningrad (St. Petersburg). Google Earth can't find Zguritza. A google search can't find it either. That's a bit strange. She goes to an indentified area for 4 years of schooling at age 7 to 11 years. Spy school for young girls?

The Soviet Spy Princess. Russian female spies were notorious for using sex to entrap their target. Marina, the Soviet Spy, turns double agent to be near and convince Harvey Oswald (here I disagree and think both Lee and Harvey were there) that she wanted so desperately to get to the US that she was willing to become a double agent and be with in my count 3 Oswalds, Harvey and Lee and whoever is on the bridge with her. There is very little proof of 3 Oswalds in Russia. Just one photo of Marina hugging a man, definitely not Harvey, assumed to be Lee Oswald. The other is the short Oswald on the bridge. There are other photos of an Oswald figure that doesn't look like Harvey, but these are debatable. One other thing, Harvey has his suicide scar on the wrong wrist in a Dallas photo leading to conjecture that he cut both wrists (no evidence of this in Russian documents) or the photo was not properly prepared and the arms and figure are reversed. If not then what's going on? Then Miss Marina gets to be a triple agent, either for the Russians (what she says is more than likely what the Russians would want her to say), or for US agencies, FBI, CIA, Secret Service, etc. Marina has many reasons to say what she says after the assassination. Either as a Soviet spy or a woman desperately trying to keep herself and her children out of Russia. Later: I noticed something that might be strange in this doc. On page 6 and 7 there are 23 of Marina's relatives listed. Only two of the 23 are deceased. That is probably below normal mortality rates. From 1919 to 1950 millions and millions of Russians died due to revolution, war, and the effects of both. Some estimate 100 million. As with most things with memory today I checked on this and couldn't find the answer with Google. Lets say 10s of millions and that might be better.

Nanny Winfrey (Nancy Winfrey) was the best candidate for Nancy Oswald. Aminthe Voitier now seems the best candidate for Mysterious Marge. But, still you can not come out and say either one is this who we might think they might be. If we keep kicking this around something might show up. I might stumble upon something that could link to this. You, David, and John K. might come up with something. In other words it is not time to walk away and say well, this does not appear to be solvable. I haven't seen the CIA doc. Is there a link to Item #361 handy?

Well, it seems more than one person believes M. Marge was a practical nurse. If she sued anyone over her nursing abilities and status she would have had to provide info on her training, certification history. She didn't sue, just threatened. There ought to be some info somewhere about looks and aging that one could find. This could give more credence to the Margaret Keating / Adminthe Voitier notion of being M. Marge. "wretched door-stopper" Good one.

Yeah, that makes my question considerably more relevant than prior. Where did she get her training and certification to be a practical nurse which in Louisiana required training at a nurse's school, certification, and a license. The same goes for Texas. Can it be assumed she was a practical nurse or a trained nurse of some sort. The only character we have in the Claverie/Oswald family is Aminthe Voitier who worked as a nurse and since she did must have had the training and license. I just received my copy of Pat Shannan's book The JFK Assassination and the Uncesored Story of the Two Oswalds. The book is on par with Doppelganger as far as being an easy read. He gives John Armstrong much praise for the Harvey and Lee story and sticks pretty much to Armstrong's facts. There are a few deviations. I would give both about the same kind of recommendation. Good. Here is something interesting from page 52: Aminthe Voitier was born in 1894 and her sister Jeanne was born in 1895. In 1963 Aminthe would be 69 or so and Jeanne 68. Aminthe is a better candidate for Mysterious Marge than Margaret Keating. As far as I know Margaet Keating had no training as a nurse and did not work as nurse. The age discrepancy between Mysterious Marge and Aminthe Voitier is still hard to reconcile. A good 10 years. Shannan indicates that the same people who knew Lee's mother at age 50 in 1959 and 1960 did not recognize her in 1963. They indicated she looked much older by about 15 years. If this was true then that makes looking at Aminthe Voitier more realistic. The closeness if any the appearance of Mysterious Marge and Real Marge's looks may be related to being 2nd cousins. (Wife says 1st cousins once removed.) I didn't see this, but I could be wrong looking at the later photo of M. Marge. They do resemble somewhat, but on the age I am not sure.

Thanks Cliff, Jesus is not some one I think of, but have noticed his good work from time to time. Will add to list.

Cliff, I saw that you didn't make a comment. Does that mean you agree with the film scene and it's interpretation by Jesus.

That wasn't enough time?

Since I have been studying the Kennedy Assassination I have come to believe that the FBI is more of a political enforcement agency and involvled with internal security enforcement than a criminal investigation agency. Hoover gave a pass to organized crime and went after sensational criminals like John Dillinger and others for the gains it would give him. His cover up of the Kennedy death is a good example of the history of his direction of the FBI. Today commentators keep talking about the crooked FBI leaders, but the good, honest, hard working rank and file. I don't believe their were any of those associated in investigating the Kennedy murder.

Thanks David for the comment and info. That pretty much agrees with my thinking. The doc says she is a nurse, but that's not clear. She says she was on the "OB case" for wealthy people. I don't know what that means. OB in medical terms refers to obstetrics. Picking up a complex, new skill at the mid to later stages of life is difficult. Unless she already had medical training then I would say she claimed to be a nurse and was simply a care giver as you say. So, in your opinion the Voitier sisters may have something to do with this "project". I think there may be something here. It may be a little early for OSS/CIA connections, but not ONI connections. Because of Dutz Murret, I believe there was an early connection to the ONI in New Orleans to the Claverie, Voitier, and Oswald families. Dutz's criminal activities on the waterfront would have brought him into contact with, perhaps many government agencies, but certainly the FBI and ONI. I keep forgetting that in the 1920s and 1930s the FBI was the major government intelligence agency with authority to investigate internal security matters. The ONI was the other important agency responsible for foreign intelligence. I just noticed the date on the doc. The FBI sure was a rapid and thorough investigation agency directly after the assassination. It's is if they already had the info.

John, The reason I say this is I know of no employment of Real Marge as a nurse. Mysterious Marge is photographed in a nurse's uniform on several occasions. Was she a real nurse or pretending to be one? Did she say she was a nurse just to have a job? How would she haven't gotten away with it if she wasn't a nurse. Help from the agency? The reason I say this is important is that the only other characters in this charade are the Voitier sisters, one a nurse and the other worked at a hospital and could possibly fake being a nurse. But, there age prohibits them from being M. Marge. Was M. Marge just babysitting and faked being a nurse in uniform to get more money? If so she must have been a poor one. Remember the condition of Harvey in the early 50s, similar to a starved out refugee.

I am not going to argue about this. I have already stated what I believe. For those who don't know what I have said go back and research it. I based what I saw in Altgens 6 on the material in the photo and not some derived model interpreting what I believe to be there or want to be there. This image is to bizarre to comment on and in no way depicts what is shown in Altgens 6.. Here's one for you. Can you come up with a model for this minor problem in Altgens 6 that explains these shadows? This is another inexplicable thing found in Altgens 6. Jean Hill's shadow is smaller than Mary Moorman's. Jean is a taller person and is standing beside Mary. Many people have tried to account for this difference with various notions. However, none stand up. I just say these are not real shadows. They are painted shadows made with a paint brush by a poor artist. Good enough to satisfy the moment and who cares about years later. Can you make a model demonstrating why Jean's shadow is smaller than Mary's. Mary was quite a bit smaller than Jean. In the Zapruder film, everybody's exemplar, they are standing side by side or relatively so. Maybe this model I propose that you make can account for the differences in the angles of the shadows in Zapruder F 298 vs. Altgens 6? Real shadows look like this that afternoon. IMO, alterations do occur in the films and photos that make up the Dealey Plaza record of the assassination. Take the doorway of the TSBD. Which is real in the following: Since I am an old school teacher, let's have a multiple choice question. A. The Altgens 6 photo and the Tina Towner film are true representatives of reality in Dealey Plaza B. The Altgens 6 photo is real and the Towner film false. C. The Altgens 6 film is false and the Towner film is real. D. Both the photo and film are false. Sorry, no "None of the Above" response here. You have to make a decision.

Thanks for mentioning Ian Griggs. I will include him with some of your description. Thanks again

Right. That's why I used the term Oswald figure. I had some reservations, particularly the ears and chin. But, the wife said yeah that's Oswald. So, I didn't go any further with my reservations. It does look remarkably like Harvey Oswald. But, not so much here. I knew I was right about the ears. No earlobes. But, thought that could be the tilt of the head in the Marine photo. thanks for the heads up.

At the AP or back in Dallas and re-transmitted. However it was done, Altgens 6 is a fraud with way to many noticeable alterations that have been argued about for years.

David, The center Oswald figure is from what photo? Never seen that one before. It's new to me. This is something that I have been saying for years. Many of the photos that we think of as Harvey Oswald, the man killed at the Dallas Police station, are actually Lee Oswald or someone else covered with a face mask. The best two examples are the BYPs and Altgens 6. It is a simple photographic alteration for film editors There are others. The reason for the face masks, there can be only one Lee Harvey Oswald.

One of the things that needs to be looked into is when did Marquerite Claverie Oswald become a nurse. Any record I see of her is for some sort of low paying job in Dept. stores or some such. On the other hand when did Mysterious Marge become a nurse? At $10 per day? There seems to be something here. I don't think Louisiana or Texas just allowed anyone to become a Practical Nurse. There had to be training and a license issued. When the Marguerites, either one, do that? To me, this is an important question, particularly as regards Mysterious Marge..

Be glad to hear what you find. There's new pics on that site I haven't seen. Thanks. If I am not seeing things then Real Marge seems to disappear in 1956-58. And, Mysterious Marge seems to appear about then. That is if I'm am seeing things correctly.

Here is another comparison. I don't have age comparisons, but it seems to validate the above photo. There is little resemblance here, but there is an age difference. But, not much. Here's Mysterious Marge toward the end of her life. Does she look 73 or 83? I say 73, but could be wrong. People carrying around extra weight always look younger with less wrinkles to me. No one with Mysterious Marge's appearance is seen in many early photos concerning Real Marge.

John K, I don't have the book. I need to know more info on Leon Voitier. That info needs to connect to Aminthe Voitier. I couldn't find anything from 1938 to future times. Unless Mistaken Identity author or Jim's well-known author can provide more info on Leon Voitier then I will simply dismiss it until such times as more proof is availalble. Back to my Bizarre Theory on the disappearance of Real Marge. Why would she agree to live and die as Adminthe Voitier in this theory? To protect her true son Lee Harvey Oswald. In this theory, I suspect the whole clan (Oswalds, Claveries, Voitiers, and others) of secrecy as regards the info we are looking for about the two Marges. This would be to protect Lee Oswald who was alive until a much later time. Kept alive so someone in the clan would not let the cat out of the bag. Then perhaps in the mid to late 1970s Lee Oswald could be disposed of with an explanation that he died in the line of duty.

No pictures. Just what I could see using the wife's genealogy service. That would be good to have a photo record. There are some photos available, but can't recall whose who. I didn't notice any connections between Voitiers and Oswalds. But, Jim's author acquaintance did. I didn't find a Leon and he did. I would like to see the background info on that. It would be good to have photos of Aminthe Voitier in the times before 1940 and after. Where are the photos of Mysterious Marge at an early age? Pre-1950? We have photos of Real Marge in the 1940s and 1950s but not Mysterious Marge. Maybe we ought to try and collect all the photos we possibly can from the times prior to 1950s.

I contend that Lee Oswald was in NO at about the time of the pamphlet operation. And, Judith Baker might be relevant here. I'll probably get beaten soundly around the head and shoulders for suggesting this. But, Judith Baker in her description of Oswald appears to me to be describing Lee Oswald rather than Harvey. Then in other instances she is describing Harvey. This is where I developed then notion she may have been double teamed by the spy duo as they did Marina. She said she was very bad at facial recognition. Would she have recognized the difference. I would think so, but who knows? Maybe they pulled it off. There is one thing certain about CIA folks, is that can they be trusted in what is say?

Probably from me. I thought I read this somewhere also. I went looking in various places and couldn't find what I thought I had read. At least the null hypothesis is established by not being able to confirm or deny this or that. Actually I have a bizarre conspiracy theory here from what I have been able to research on Voitiers. It has a very low probability. It might be in tune with your well-known author. Aminthe Voitier never marries and has no children. I couldn't find a Leon or a marriage. If born in 1938 what happened to him by 1940? Anyway, she has nurse training at a hospital. Her educational attainment was the 8th grade. Maybe she worked as a nurse, but was not licensed. This would fit Mysterious Marge. Another big hurdle to place Aminthe Voitier as Mysterious Marge is her age. Mysterious Marge died in 1981 at 73 years. If memory is correct, that is. Aminthe was born in 1894 and would be in 1981, 83 years. I can't tell whether later photos of Mysterious Marge look more aged than she actually was. Now, here is the Bizarre Part. Aminthe Voitier (alleged Mysterious Marge) dies in 1965 at age 70. Real Marge, Marguerite Claverie- mother of Lee Oswald, disappears within this time frame of the late 1950s to mid 60s. So, we have Mysterious Marge (maybe Aminthe Voitier) living on as Marguerite Oswald until 1981. And, Real Marge dying as Aminthe Votier. This is a hoot requiring a great deal of cooperation between an alleged Mysterious Marge and an alleged Real Marge for Real Marge to die as Aminthe Claverie. This would have to be an intelligence agency solution to a two Marge situation. Bizarre? Well, a lot of things in the Oswald / Kennedy Assassination story are bizarre.