John Butler

Thanks Cliff, Now I recall. I remember seeing that at the time. I will use this when I write comments about Gregory. I won't write what I think. I remember seeing Dick Gregory at a 1969 visit/show at Western KY U. He struck me as a radical/communist or socialist revolutionary from what he said at the time. He was openly advocating the overthrow of the US government. It didn't sit well with me at the time since I had just left the army. The people I was with at the time missed this completely. Back in those days I believed Oswald killed Kennedy and when he was killed it was good riddance. It saved the cost of a trial.

This list is evolving into something more than who people judge heroic but, with people who judge themselves non-heroic and of people others judge non-heroic. IMO, if you made an effort to get at the truth in the Kennedy Assassination or was someone who suffered due to what they know you should be on the list. To me I would have a hard time putting folks like Ike Altgens on the list. But, if someone nominates him then he goes on the list. I will try to write some factual and not what I think.

Dick Gregory? Is that the black comedian/activist of the 1970s? If so, I can't remember anything that he did vis-à-vis the Kennedy assassination? Can you clarify?

That's was a part of her problem. Some people think she and Jean Hill were police groupies. Regardless, her testimony is taken as the truth by many, many people. She is seen as heroic for her testimony and photos.

Good ideas Ron, I believe this is evolving into something that may be useful to other people. I need to go back and revise those few blurbs I have made on certain people. This list should be searchable in a Word doc or .pdf to find what you are looking for. For instance it you searched for trajectories you would come up with Sherry Fiester and others who have done similar work. Now that would be useful. Here's something a little out there. I read that the Russians had a poison gas gun in the 1950s that gave one a heart attack with out being recognized as a poison assassination event. I believe we would have had one too, Using Jim Marrs list of 103 people one could query "heart attack" and see how many folks died after 1963 who had a heart attack under suspicious circumstances. To others, I am adding the new names to the list. I trust folks judgement on this and not the criticism of others. I myself would not put Mary Moorman on the list. But, others don't see her the way I do and she will go on the list with standard information of what others think rather than what I think. What I am saying is we need to trust and allow other people's judgement on who is praiseworthy.

Jim, You are right in your assessment, but you are a vital part of the Harvey and Lee story. Correct me if I am wrong, but Mr. Armstrong is aging and perhaps appears less interested than in prior times. Age does that to people. You are the person I see keeping the ideas alive. You and David Josephs are major supporters of this idea. You deserve recognition. My list of folks over in the other thread just started as a way to recognize other praiseworthy people's work. It is evolving into something that might be good for newbies and for us old timers who occasionally have a memory lapse or two. I put this on this thread, it has nothing to do with usual business here, but I wanted to check what I wrote about you and John is acceptable or needs to be changed.

I beg to differ. Even though we disagree from time to time, your work does need to be recognized and remembered. As I said to Denny Zartman there are many definitions of hero. Hero may have not been the right choice of words, but that is the way I look at it. Others look at it differently. I think we need to give the reader the option to decide. IMO, your work can't be ignored.

Thanks Denny, You make many good and interesting points. I would like to say that it is hard to agree on a definition of hero. Others have different views. This has been brought up several times. I think this list will be categorized later as it becomes more complete. There are several options here. There could be a category of "True Heroes" or a similar title to indicate these people were killed, likely by the government, for what they knew and their effort to report what they knew. Work has been done on this and I would like to include that in this list. Jim Marrs lists 103 deaths of Kennedy Assassination connected people from the years 1963 to 1976. He put an asterisk near suspicious deaths. A list like that could be included. Some people think some folks should not be on the list for various reasons. From their point of view their reasoning is the correct view. I think controversial people should be included and the reader will make the judgement on suitability and exclude whoever they wish. This is currently in the form of a Word doc and can easily be changed to suit someone's interest.

Good question John K, David Josephs has the most complete info on this. I'm waiting for him to respond. I think he eventually will give us a clue, a direction. Jim, Definitely the teeth of Harvey not Lee. There may be deniers of this, but they have no real ground to stand on concerning this factual evidence.

This is the list so far. If you think someone needs to be added please advise. If you think something needs to be changed please advise. As you can see I haven't added all of the descriptions yet. I feel inadequate to this task so, if someone wants to add a brief description please do. This list of people involved with researching the Kennedy Assassination may be valuable for a person new to the subject. It may help with where to seek information. And, it may jog the memory of us old timers. Please note any misspellings or errors and let me know for correction. Jim Garrison- James Carothers Garrison (born Earling Carothers Garrison; November 20, 1921 – October 21, 1992) - District Attorney in New Orleans from 1962 to 1973. He is best known for his investigations into the assassination of President John F. Kennedy by trying Clay Shaw as an assassination co-conspirator. Wrote a best-seller in 1988, On The Trail Of The Assassins. Mark Lane- is best known as a leading Kennedy Assassination researcher and author. Lane wrote many books on the assassination. The best known is The Warren Commission, Rush to Judgement. His last book was Last Word: My Indictment of the CIA in the Murder of JFK, published in 2011. John Armstrong and Jim Hargrove: John Armstrong was the author of Harvey and Lee. Jim Hargrove has been a major supporter and over the years kept the Harvey and Lee notion alive. The 2003 Fetzner Symposium: Taken from the internet- The Zapruder Film Symposium, which was organized and moderated by Dr. James H. Fetzer on the Duluth Campus of the University of Minnesota, 9-11 May 2003, may well prove to have been among the most important conferences in the history of the study of the death of JFK. James Fetzner- Dr. Fetzer published over 100 articles and 20 books on philosophy of science and philosophy of cognitive science, especially of artificial intelligence and computer science. He wrote Assassination Science and Murder In Dealey Plaza. Jack White- John Costella David Healey Scott Lederer David Mantik Gaeton Fonzi John Newman Sylvia Meagher Mae Brussell Anthony Summers Cyril Wecht Penn Jones Robert Tanenbaum Robert Groden David Lifton L. Fletcher Prouty Oliver Stone Harold Weisberg Judith Baker William Weston David Josephs John Kowalski Bart Kamp Jim DiEugenio John Hunt Cliff Varnell David Talbot Doug Horne Michael Chesser - A Review of the JFK Cranial x-Rays and Photographs- 2015- A Review of the JFK Cranial x-Rays and Photographs, was prepared and delivered by neurologist, Dr. Michael Chesser, at the 2015 JFK Lancer Conference in Dallas, Texas. His work also supports the findings of Dr. David Mantik. Walt Brown Ed Tatro- The JFK Conference- The Big Event. Edgar F. Tatro is one of the pre-eminent experts on the Kennedy Assassination. Greg Burnham Vincent Salandria Peter Dale Scott Robert Charles-Dunne Michael Hogan Ron Ecker E. Martin Schotz- The Waters of Knowledge versus the Waters of Uncertainty: Mass Denial in the Assassination of President Kennedy- Coalition on Political Assassinations Conference Dallas, Texas 20 November 1998. Anna Marie Kuhns Walko Jerry Rose Shirley Martin Maggie Field Gary Shaw Wallace Milam Debra Conway Malcolm Blunt Rex Bradford Bill Simpich Bob Dorff Stu Wexler Jim Lesar Mary Ferrell Gary Murr Larry Hancock Joseph McBride Dick Russell Josiah Thompson Barry Ernst Tom Wilson James Douglas Noel Twyman Larry Harris Sandy Larsen

I just checked this list and your name is not there. It should be one of the first entries for your great work on the dental patterns of the two Oswalds. Sorry, I will add your name.

I see I screwed up in writing this above statement that Sandy outlined in red. I did not mean Ron Ecker, but Gerald Posner. Sorry.

Thanks Ron, I know your position on this. I read your comments all the time and the comments of the folks you have listed. You have listed a number of great, and praiseworthy people in opposition to Judith Baker. Other can probably list her supporters. What I am saying is, real or not she is out there for people to judge her story. There are Judith Baker supporters.

Thanks Sandy, I remembered it was Ron Ecker. I figured it was just a joke of his. A one liner as you said. Ron was nominated for this list. I don't have any problem with him. Good man. But, Gerald Posner is another matter.

I think I know what those kids are talking about. Over the years Geraldo has lost his shine if he ever had any. But, IMO we have to give him credit for the Zapruder film display whatever his intentions were. There are lots of media folks I simply will not listen to and just turn them off.

Thanks David, I think anyone who gets into the business of JFK research or is connected to is worthy of praise however minor their contribution is. When I get the whole list assembled it might be a good idea to separate these folks into categories. I don't know about the Order of Lenin. I had not realized that could be taken that way. I am using hero simply as someone who stands out from the crowd.

Thanks Cory. I'll put their names on the list. This whole thing is about there being to many praise worthy people for one person to list. If you could would you write a short, maybe two sentences which is nearly an impossible task to be that brief, description of each. I'm trying to assemble the whole group with a brief description for each that perhaps would jog someone's memory or inform someone new to the field that person is interesting enough to find out more information about them and their work.

Thanks Ron. My memory just needed a shake. I recall now. Thanks.

I agree and disagree. Roger Craig should be listed as a Hero of Heroes. As far as others, I think others should be noted for their efforts and putting themselves forward with their ideas on the Kennedy Assassination. This is a rough business and not for the thin skinned. I've forgotten who Barry Ernst is. I don't know Tom Wilson and Larry Harris. Could you make a brief comment on these folks?

Thanks Pat, I started this because I knew that I would not be able to recall all of the worthy people who should be noted for their work. Then, I got the notion that a short blurb should be put by the person's name listing something of their effort for folks who have just developed an interest in the topic so they would have some idea of what people have done in the past. I've just started on this and have a couple on entries such as : Jim Garrison- James Carothers Garrison (born Earling Carothers Garrison; November 20, 1921 – October 21, 1992) - District Attorney in New Orleans from 1962 to 1973. He is best known for his investigations into the assassination of President John F. Kennedy by trying Clay Shaw as an assassination co-conspirator. Wrote a best-seller in 1988, On The Trail Of The Assassins. Mark Lane- is best known as a leading Kennedy Assassination researcher and author. Lane wrote many books on the assassination. The best know is The Warren Commission, Rush to Judgement. His last book was Last Word: My Indictment of the CIA in the Murder of JFK, published in 2011. So, if anyone wants to help I'll try to collate the collection of comments and post them all at once.

Jim In David's timeline is a reference for 2220 Thomas Place on March 19, 1948. And, then nothing until 1952. Generally, if there is nothing to report on then the time period entries would be left blank. Or, if nothing could be found for those years then maybe a note saying such would be appropriate. Maybe David will make a comment on that. His input would be appreciated. I started another topic Heroes of the Kennedy Assassination Research. I have this entry in a word doc which I haven't posted yet about John Armstrong and yourself. John Armstrong and Jim Hargrove: John Armstrong was the author of Harvey and Lee. Jim Hargrove has been a major supporter and over the years kept the Harvey and Lee notion alive. If that is not appropriate give me a heads up on what needs to be changed.

Totally missed that. But, I assumed he was with Mysterious Marge during this period since he had been entered into school in July, 1947. It is difficult to reconcile where he was at if not with Mysterious Marge. I agree that David's record is very accurate. So, how would Harvey get back to NYC during this period if he was with Marge in Texas in 1947? He couldn't have been placed with the Gardos in the years 1948 to 1952. In 1948 Emil, Grace, and Louis Weinstock all applied for visas to go to Hungary. Emil and Grace did leave for Hungary in 1948. Louis stayed and eventually was punished for not going by be arrested and tried under the new communism laws. He was eventually sent to prison. Whoever the Tippit unknown caller was, she spoke of a time when Gardos, Blair, and Weinstock were in association planning the overthrow of the government with maps and charts. This would have been prior to 1948. And, in my opinion the time period is prior to November, 1945 perhaps stretching to 1943. And, probably the other end stretching to 1947 until Truman's order on communists in government in March or until just a few months later. No info for Harvey and Mysterious Marge from 1948 to 1952 doesn't mean they went to NYC. But, where were they? New Orleans? Some Lee info actually Harvey? I trust David's judgement on this. So, that's not up for consideration. What then? Harvey can't be placed with the Gardos in 1948. They are on their way to Hungary.

Couldn't agree more. The Chief Justice of the United States is a man. Subject to the fallacies of man. Some good and some bad. As far as I am concerned the Warren Court is responsible for many of the ills of our society. There again some good some bad.

Thanks Cliff.

Thanks Joe,