John Butler

John K, Could be. However, persecution of informers and those who betrayed the communists would be a good way to bona fide those folks. Fred was once tossed out of the communist party in Milwaukee and was reinstated. Gardos wins a communist medal in Hungary. The Gardos may have been sent to Hungary as spies. Hungary had become communist. We don't have enough information to say something either way. Remember the Solo Spy, Morris Childs. He received a high award medal from the Soviets in the 70s or 80s. Morris Childs new the Gardos. He worked to bring Grace home in the 60s. Morris and his brother Jack were kept under constant FBI surveillance to bolster their roles as good communists.

And, what about Fred Blair the long term radical communist from Milwaukee. He was the brother of Grace Gardos and the brother in law of Emil Gardos. Why did he start his collection of letters between Grace and he with this letter dated the Feb. 28, 1971? Where are all the other communications between Fred and Grace from 1948 to 1971? Why start his historical collection of letters with this one. What was he trying to say? Information for your benefit Milwaukee Feb. 28, 1971 Page 1 After 8 trips to Hungary and a 10 months stay in both city and villages I have all the information necessary to know everything about the Workers Paradise. Starvation wages and highway robbery prices. In Budapest an electrician wages are 10 forints an hour or 30 cents. Other trades get 27 and 25 cents an hour. A mine worker 17 hundred to 2 thousand forints a month and the poor people female slaves earn from 7 to 9 hundred forints a month. Now make comparison in God’s Country. An electrician makes 6 dollars an hour other trades 5 to 5:50 an hour. Then a pension of 5 hundred dollars a month plus Social Security pension of 2 hundred dollars a month. Now about the prices in Hungary A worker is fortunate to buy a bycicle with a month’s wage. Here a worker can buy one with a day’s wages. All your merchandise including groceries, meats and wearing apparel are higher than in America. I made a list of all these commodities and their prices in contrast to the prices we pay here. The average American worker makes 20 times more in wages a month (at least) 3 to 6 hundred dollars a month. 234 minimum. In Worker’s Paradise he averages 50 dollars a month and pays more for everything he buys. I, as an upholsterer make $5.50 an hour 2 hundred and 20 dollars a week. We can live like human beings and take a trip to Europe every year if I so desire, and live like a being. No wonder there so much dissatisfaction and hatred everywhere I went, there is no joy in the land, nor song that comes from the heart, because they Page 2 have nothing but misery and poverty. No future, but Bureaucracy. Ther daughters doomed to prostitution or suicide, the highest in Europe. The days of Francis Joseph are no more, then there was song and laughter, and a way of life that the people found good. Open up that barbed wire border. Then there will be an exodus of slaves never before in history. Anywhere just to get away from that living hell called Hungary. I told them – you are all crazy paying such prices 75 cents for a dozen eggs. We pay 35 to 45 cents 1.75 for a pound of meat. We pay half that. Cheap lousy shoes 12 dollars. A case of beer 4 dollars – 120 forints 11 hours work. In Milwaukee one hours work. This is the formula for everything we buy. Perhaps someday the awakening will come and rebell at these existing unbearable conditions. Amen Fred doesn't sound like a happy camper or happy communist. Was he secretly a Christian rather than a good communist atheist? Why end a letter with Amen? Something is being said here that might be in accord with Fred Blair as a founding member of the Oswald Project. If John Gardos, Janos Gardos, the son of Emil Gardos is not Harvey Oswald then what are we left with? Louis Weinstock and a young European immigrant, maybe an orphan, and perhaps a Hungarian posed as the son of Emil Gardos sometime during the period 1945-1947? Maybe. This idea will be developed further later.

John K, I don't know what Harvey's name was prior to being Harvey. I think that is lost for all time. That is unless someone left a death bed record. I prefer Alek Hidell even though Russell's Richard Case Nagel says he is to author of that name. I think that goes back further than Atsugi, Japan. How about this: This is a well known letter. But, I think it has not been looked at in this light. Weinstock says, "and from time to time we shall call on you." Not might, not maybe, not will, but shall call upon you. I wonder if he did? I don't think there is any record of a constant communication between Weinstock and Harvey. But, they knew each other. Louis Weinstock was a long time communist. He came to this country in the 1920s after the Bela Kun communist revolt failed in Hungary. At about the same time as Emil Gardos and Sandor Goldberger. He was a communist for over 70 years. He was a dedicated, radical, allegiance swearing to the Soviet Union communist who worked constantly for the overthrow of the United States and to institute a socialist regime in the US. How could such a good communist be considered as one of the founding members of the Oswald Project? That's what the Tippit teletype implies. Emil Gardos, Fred Blair, and Louis Weinstock knew and provided care for Lee Harvey Oswald at the location 77th Street and 2nd Ave. This implies they were working for government intelligence agencies such as the OSS and perhaps the ONI because of Oswald and Ekdahl connection. Certainly, the FBI and the New York Police Dept. was aware of this and helped cover it up from the beginning. That's a little bold, but could be true.

Harvey, The European Immigrant For many reasons, as listed on the Harvey and Lee site, Lee Harvey Oswald is believed to have had a double known as Harvey. Harvey was believed to be a Hungarian refugee brought to the US directly after WW2. This notion was strengthened by the Tippit phone call of Nov. 30, 1963. An unknown caller said that Lee Harvey Oswald was the son of a Hungarian Communist, Emil Gardos. Also mentioned was an unnamed brother in law and a Weinstock. These people were said to be dedicated communists and leaders of the CPUSA in New York City. First off one has to ask the question why were New York communists involved in raising Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin of President Kennedy? Was this a disinformation tactic by the FBI to help frame Russia as involved with the assassination? And, once this FBI teletype information developed was it abandoned as policy and the assassination story shifted? This probably was not the case if one looks at the revealing of the information in this secret FBI teletype. This was a document given to the HSCA by the FBI. It was not released publicly until 1993 by the ARRB. This information was treated seriously by the FBI. If Gardos, Weinstock, and brother in law, Fred Blair were not working for the interests of the Soviet Union, who were they working for in raising Harvey Oswald directly after WW2. They must have done this for some time in New York since the unknown caller suggested this was done at a certain location. The answer to who can only be American intelligence agencies. These probably were the OSS, later the CIA, the ONI, and with cooperation of the FBI. From Harvey and Lee: Frank Wisner and World War II Refugees Frank Wisner was a Wall Street lawyer and during WW II worked for the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor of the CIA). After World War II ended thousands of Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States under his supervision. National Security Council (NSC) records show that Wisner, the CIA's director of clandestine operations, oversaw the re-location of thousands of anti-Communist exiles to the United States as a means of rewarding them for conducting secret operations against the Soviets. Wisner became the CIA and State Department’s expert on European war refugees, and secretly subsidized the refugee relief organizations that brought these Eastern Bloc refugees to the United States throughout the 1940s and early 1950s. Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrant's knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands. Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed. The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains "classified," that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA. The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA. DPC chairman Ugo Carusi sent a memorandum to all refugee organizations in the USA that read: “We would like to advise that the U.S. Commission [DPC] has a formal agreement with the CIA to cooperate in every possible way to facilitate their programs. It is, therefore, altogether desirable that local representatives of the voluntary agencies and State Commissions and Committees make available to fully identified CIA agents the addresses of displaced persons.” This gives a good idea of how a Hungarian orphan was passed on to the New York communists who could only have been working for the government agencies listed. When could this have happened? I would suggest that Louis Weinstock was heavily involved and this happened prior to April, 1946. The following information indicates why: 870 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ALIEN AND NATIONAL GROUPS “Then we organized the New York Council of American Hungarians for Democracy. I heard that organization mentioned as a Communist organization. The gentleman had the courage of naming a few of these physicians and others. Now, except this Komlos/ I don't think any of them can be charged with communism. Even Komlos was one of their directors of that organization; Eeverend Borshy was the president of it. That was the Hungarian Relief. During those first years after the war, they elected a few definitely Communist people, for example, Weinstock.” 870 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ALIEN AND NATIONAL GROUPS “…Mr. L. Weinstock declares that the old board of directors cannot be absolved without settling certain questions like that of the associate secretary. Dr. Mark moves to absolve the board of directors ; Mr. Segedy seconds motion ; Mr. Revesz amends motion to include the executive committee ; Mr. Lustig requests a vote on the question of the associate secretary. Mr. Nadanyi moves that the decision of the executive committee as 3 to 7 abolishing the position of the associate secretary be accepted. A subsequent vote of 20 against, 10 approves the decision of the executive committee and absolves the old board of directors. A secret vote was then taken on Sir. Nadanyi's motion that no member of the Communist Party can become a director of the American Hungarian Relief. Accepted by a majority vote (20 for it, 8 against, 2 did not vote). Louis Weinstock had been a member of the Executive Committee of the American Hungarian Relief program. Prior to the time of April, 1946 is the time that Weinstock would have been contacted by a government agency. And, sometime before that Weinstock and Gardos must have become informants for the FBI. This time works well with the appearance of Harvey in Texas in the school year of 1947-48. Recent information from Gardos family members suggests that Emil Gardos’ son, John Gardos was not Harvey Oswald. John Gardos went to Hungary with his parents, Emil and Grace, in 1948. Emil Gardos went voluntarily and was not expelled or deported. This suggests interesting notions about Emil Gardos. More than likely Harvey Oswald was a Hungarian refugee brought into this country by American intelligence agencies and delivered to Gardos and Weinstock to raise until such time as a long-term handler could be arranged. This was none other than Mysterious Marge. This handover to Marguerite Ekdahl occurred before July, 1947. The 1946 time period works well with this. Harvey was probably posed as the son of Emil Gardos since he was the same age as Emil’s son John, born in 1939. Harvey was raised for a brief period of time by Gardos and Weinstock in the neighborhood of 77th Street and Second Ave. in Yorkville, New York City. David Josephs says this on the earliest date that Harvey could have appeared and it is in Texas, “On July 7 1947 "MARGUERITE EKDAHL" buys 101 San Saba while living at 1505 8th street.... but never lives there...” This gives an outline of the way things could have happened. Now we will turn to the possible identity of the Tippit’s unknown caller and the significance of the 77th Street and 2nd Ave. location.

Elizabeth Bentley was a Connecticut lady. She was born and died there. When she left the FBI she returned to Conn. and taught school. She was at the Longdale School, a reform school for girls. It is really interesting that she would travel to Conn. to make her FBI reports. I would think the FBI had her under constant surveillance even in her later life.

John K, I haven't and would like to if such was available. The book sounds interesting. I did some looking and all I was able to come up with is this in the neighborhood of 77th Street and 2nd Ave: And, for later in the text. Helen Levi Simon Travis Helen Levi. Helen Levi Simon, alias Maxine Levi. Helen Levi Travis. The Tippit Phone Call document identifies the location 77th Street and 2nd Ave. as the location where the father and uncle of Lee Harvey Oswald lived. The document does not identify an address which needs a building number. So, this location covers East 77th Street from 2nd Ave. to 3rd Ave. There is a significant number of people living on the average New York block. So, from the FBI document one should look for Harvey’s father and uncle in the years 1945-1947 in the area of 77th and 2nd Ave in NYC. Information from Harvey’s unknown family and Lee’s family is insufficient to establish any relationships to help identify Harvey Oswald’s origins. If one takes a literal, unquestioning view of the document then the father and uncle of Harvey Oswald are not Emil Gardos and Fred Blair. However, an alternative view does connect the uncle and father of Harvey Oswald to Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, and Fred Blair and the location 77th Street and 2nd Ave. Information from a Gardos family member indicates that Emil and Grace Gardos were not the parents of Harvey Oswald. The FBI document says the uncle and father were “Hungarians and Communists”. So, a search for Hungarians and Communists in the location 77th Street and 2nd Ave. in the years prior to 1947-48 is logical. From the book Communist Underground Printing and Illegal Propaganda: Hearings… we can find a number of Hungarian communists in that area and in areas close to 77th Street and 2nd Ave. in the years 1945-1947. The following Hungarian communists were living there during the years 1945-1947: Helen Levi Simon- 350 East 77th Street and 2nd Ave. Lou and Estelle Weber (real name Oringer)- 325 East 77th Street and 2nd Ave. William and Sonia Arnett- 215 East 77th Street and 2nd Ave. There are probably more, but not listed. The dominant communist organization was the Yorkville Club. This covered a district from 49th Street to 96th Street. Its membership was 342 people. A listing of its membership would be interesting. I was not able to find any information for William and Sonia Arnett. The parents of Louis Weber were Hungarians. There is no information other then Census data on Louis and Estelle Weber. However, there is information on Helen Levi. Helen’s parents were German. She married Abbott Simon in 1938. Abbott’s parents were from a part of Poland that was a part of Russia. They spoke Polish, Russian, and Yiddish. Simon was involved in the 44 day strike in Flint, Michigan involving General Motors. Emil Gardos was also at this strike. It may be that they met and knew each other. But, overtime perhaps 150,000 people were involved. Helen Levi Simon was a reporter for the Daily Worker during this time period. It's possible she knew Weinstock and Gardos who at various times were associated with the newspaper. Grace Gardos was also a reporter for the Daily Worker. The Daily Worker at it’s peak had a subscription of 35,000, but on average of about 17000. How many papers were sold on the street is unknown. Whatever, the number the Daily Worker was a small paper whose income was probably bolstered by the CPUSA and directly from Russia. Morris Child in his activities as a Soviet agent delivered something like 28 million dollars from Moscow for CPUSA operations. Helen was an active communist agent and probably knew all of the communist activities that went on at 77th Street and 2nd Ave. PS I have sworn off buying Kennedy books. I have about 3 big boxes full. But, I broke training to buy this book. I'll let you know in several days if it was worth buying and if it has any good info. Also, this about the Yorkville Club: A short walk in New York. The Yorkville Club was a communist organization at 350 East 80th Street, NYC. There membership was 342 members. The Yorkville Club district for members had Yorkville stretching from 42nd Street to 96th Street, NYC. The main copying machine for printing and copying communist material was located there. This organization may have dealt with Hungrarian immigration after WWII. This comes from the book Communist Underground printing and Illegal Propaganda- Congressional Hearings… This information about the Yorkville Club comes from the period 1945-1947. It lists several of its members. I have chosen the ones that have an address on 77th Street. First off there is a mention of J. Peters in this record. Sandor Goldberger alias Alexander Stevens alias Joseph Peter was an alleged agent of the NKVD along with Emil Gardos.

John K, I feel the need to apologize. I'm not the sharpest knife in the set. I misunderstood what you were saying here. I'm was thinking Marguerite Claverie and you were talking about Mysterious Marge. As far as I know David has provided the best answer on that. She is pretty much an unknown except for the 1941 letter which I need to go back and reread. David said, "I still think we need to first conclude “real” or “part of a CI plan” to CYA in a doppelgänger plan to get better assets into Russia.... pure OSS and the Military... Screams Dulles, Angleton and gang.... Far superior long term planning than most.... “they” do it, we need to fight fire with fire.... " My apologies to David here I can't get this editor to quote properly a second time. There is a treasure house of speculation here in this quote. Back in those days the Chinese were said to have 100 year plans and the Russians had there 5 and 10 year plans. So, I can very well see a group of OSS agents sitting around and discussing why didn't we have our long term plans. The OSS became the CIA in something like 1947. This is the time or slightly earlier that the whole Oswald Project was probably dreamed up through someone like David Phillips. But, he didn't join the CIA until 1950. His predecessors were most likely those mentioned by David. Harvey and Lee info says this project was in operation before the advent of David Phillips. He may have taken over supervision later. Back to Mysterious Marge, this incident has gotten me to thinking what else have I been wrong headed on concerning Harvey Oswald. A guy shouldn't really make these kind of open ended statements. In the discussion of the Tippit letter, we assume, mainly because it is said and implied, that Gardos and Weinstock are dedicated communist agents out to overthrown the government of the US. We are told this by the unknown caller and rubber stamped by the New Haven SAC. What if it wasn't so? Think about that for a minute. If Harvey Oswald's father is actually Emil Gardos as said, then Gardos and Weinstock would have to be working in league with the government to produce the Oswald Project. I don't think anyone has ever mentioned that, at least as far as I know. The idea that Emil Gardos is the father of Harvey Oswald may be correct in part or simply perceived to be correct. Recent information has pretty much ruled out John Gardos as Harvey Oswald. I still have nagging doubts, but lack the evidence to say it. So, Emil's son could be another Hungarian boy acquired by Gardos and not John kept at that location. 77th and 2nd Ave. may have been a safe house for this kind of activity. I can't relate anything to it and it is not exactly a house but an area location. It would have also been used for other communist activity. I take it that the unknown caller was actually there and saw the what she described "THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS." There are a number of things one can derive from this statement by the unknown caller. Number 1 is that she was trusted by Gardos and Weinstock in order to be there an observe charts and maps. Therefore, she must have been (in appearance) a dedicated communist. Or, the 3 worked together and were familiar with each other. This maybe one of the unconscious reasons I liked Elizabeth Bentley as a candidate for the unknown caller. Mary Furhman would not have known this I believe. As far as Gardos being the head of the communists, that may have some validity. Certainly, he would not take the role as an open and public leader. If Gardos was truly a NKVD agent then whatever he did would be of top importance to people like Gus Hall and other leaders proceeding Gus Hall. I have suspected at various times that Emil Gardos may have been turned and became a government agent, perhaps FBI. This line of speculation may point that out. John Abt connects to Elizabeth Bentley. Who was it that Harvey asked for as his defense attorney before he died? John Abt, the communist lawyer for all the important communist groups and leaders in New York. After supposedly battling the US government (FBI) for 16 years he voluntarily left for Hungary with wife Grace and son in 1948. Louis Weinstock was also supposed to go also, but didn't. He later on went to prison because he didn't leave like Gardos. The idea that the unknown caller knew Gardos and Weinstock is confirmed by what she said about the 77th Street and 2nd Ave. location. She must have been there to see charts and maps. This means she was trusted by Weinstock and Gardos. She must have been a communist or prominent communist coordinator to do that.

That's what I thought, but wasn't sure. Can I now go back and ask again does anyone know who this is? I'm just guessing either Kerry Thornley or the real Lee Harvey Oswald? Lee Oswald? What's the use of having a double spy unless they both work the same area? But, would they both be at the same event being filmed? It appears that everyone knows they are being filmed. The man with his backed turned does that throughout the film to avoid showing his face. I believe, if memory serves, Jim Garrison thought Kerry Thornley was involved in the pamphlet passing activity. The man shown here is dressed the same as the man pointed out with the red arrow in the other photo. He has the same skinny upper arm as versus the "Popeye" appearance of the lower arm. IMO, we are looking at the same man. We might be looking at Lee Oswald here. This man resembles Harvey Oswald very much so that a lot of folks will identify this as Harvey Oswald. They resembled each other, but were not identical. Lee was supposedly taller and heavier. But, that was in the military years before 1963. Working with David Ferrie with the cancer rats he may have slimmed down considerably. If you saw this man on the street in NO and then months later asked to identify Harvey Oswald who would you say this man was?

That's a definite possibility in your reply to John K. It could also be that the SAC, New Haven had been kept informed from the New York offices on the general Lee Harvey Oswald situation. The doc says he informed Dallas, New York, and Washington of the information in the teletype. He also made sure Mr. Rosen, as assistant director was informed. This says he thought what the Tippits told him was more than a crank call. This response of the SAC, New Haven says he has an idea of what the importance of this information was. Mention of Gardos and Weinstock tells him this has Internal Security- Russia implications. He might even have been an older agent that could recall the late 40s and the McCarthy era and recall the congressional hearings to deport Gardos and Weinstock .

Yep, that's a lot easier. Truer words.... But, by going through this speculative exercise someone might see something, it might trigger something, or suggest to someone a new way to think. I think Elizabeth Bentley is a fair candidate particularly so, or not so, depending on what can be found out about the last 3 days of her life. This is an old topic on the Forum which goes back years. We have added to, expanded on, and supplied new information concerning the Tippit call. The last effort went wrong in a couple of ways and we have put the topic back on the right path. Some one may wish to tackle this again and what we have done will be helpful. What we have done may be helpful to someone in launching new areas to explore. Can't think of what that might be, but am hopeful that someone might.

Elizabeth Bentley, The Red Queen From Wikipedia: Elizabeth Bentley- (January 1, 1908 – December 3, 1963) was an American spy and member of the Communist Party USA who served the Soviet Union from 1938 until 1945. In 1945, she defected from the Communist Party and Soviet intelligence by contacting the FBI and reporting on her activities. From: CT Files: The Red Spy Queen Mar 9, 2017 “Nazi Germany had been defeated a few months earlier and the uneasy wartime alliance between the U.S. and the Soviet Union was over. And thanks in part to Bentley — a Soviet spy turned double agent — the Cold War was about to start in earnest. The information she would provide FBI agents would directly fuel the anti-Communist witch hunts spearheaded by Joseph McCarthy, temporarily stop Soviet espionage activity in the U.S. and lead to convictions in two of the most famous spying cases in U.S. history — the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss.” Could Elizabeth Bentley be the unknown caller in the Tippit phone call. Possibly? She could fit most of the characteristics of the unknown caller with the exception of an accent. Bentley was American born with no traces of recent immigrant ancestry. Since we are speculating an accent could be assumed as part of a disguise. What connects Elizabeth Bentley to the Tippit call. She knew the major communist figures in New York during the 1930s and 1940s. She knew Emil Gardos and Louis Weinstock. These were the two men mentioned in the Tippit call. She knew the brother in law which must be considered Emil Gardos’ brother in law. Louis Weinstock did not have a known brother in law. Fred Blair was Emil Gardos’ brother in law through his sister Grace who had married Emil Gardos. The unknown caller knew the brother in law, but could not recall the name. This could be because Fred was out of sight and out of mind in Minnesota for years in 1963. Fred Blair was an upper level communist leader, a member of the National Directorate. How did Elizabeth Bentley know Emil Gardos and Louis Weinstock? Bentley was an important spy and courier in New York during the 1930s and 1940s. She was a member of the most important communist spy groups and headed her own at one time. When she became an informer for the FBI, she exposed two spy groups and over 80 members, some say 150 with 37 government employees. She was an informant for the FBI and perhaps other government agencies. As an interesting aside, she was quickly burned as a FBI spy and informant. From: Atomic Heritage Foundation website “In November 1945, Bentley was led by a combination of her anger toward the KGB, alcoholism, and extreme paranoia to voluntarily confess her espionage activities to the FBI. Bentley provided the FBI with a complete and signed 108-page confession on November 30, 1945. In the document, she summarized her career as a Soviet spy and identified a number of sources she and Golos provided for the KGB. J. Edgar Hoover, the head of the FBI, shared a copy of Bentley's deposition with William Stephenson, chief of British Security Coordination, who forwarded the news to London. This transmission was picked up by Kim Philby, one of the Cambridge Ring KGB spies, and he forwarded a summary to KGB headquarters in Moscow on December 4, 1945. Bentley's deposition exposed forty-one Soviet sources to the FBI, including Victor Perlo, Harry Dexter White, and Nathan Silvermaster.” Bentley’s first Soviet handler was Jacob Golos in 1938. Bentley became involved with Golos, but they never married. Golos dies of heart problems in 1943. This was said to be the cause of Elizabeths depression and alcoholism. However, she was a honored and respected communist receiving the Order of the Red Star in 1944. Before that in 1940, Golos was forced to register as an agent of the Soviet Government. This cut down on his usefulness and many functions were transferred to the mysterious J. Peters. J. Peters’ real name was Sandor Goldberger. It is alleged that Sandor Goldberger and Emil Gardos were NKVD agents in Hungarian and came to America as such in the early 1920s. Here they took the role of figures in the background and not the top American communist leaders. As NKVD agents they more than likely influenced the decisions made. Elizabeth Bentley worked with many communist leaders in New York and would have probably known these two. If Elizabeth Bentley had any knowledge of the father of Lee Harvey Oswald as Emil Gardos that knowledge was probably gained before 1945 or, maybe afterward as she became involved with the FBI in determining who the communist were in NYC. The Tippit phone call implies that the unknown caller was actually at the 77th Street and 2nd Avenue address and knew exactly who these men were. Elizabeth Bentley was born in New Milford which is about 45 miles from Hartford. At the time of her death she probably was teaching at the Long Lane School for girls. She began the job there in 1959. This was a reform school for girls in Middletown, Conn., which is 16 miles south of Hartford. In the end she developed abdominal cancer and had surgery at New Haven, about 30 miles south of Hartford, on Dec. 2, 1963 and died the following day on the 3rd. Bentley may have gone in the hospital 1 or 2 days before her surgery for pre-operative reasons. (Don’t know) It is possible she could be the unknown caller. She was in the right location and just about the right time to make a phone call in New Haven or 30 miles away in Westport. Any of the places mentioned above are connected by train, bus, and personal automobile and no more than an hour’s travel apart. What would her motive be? At this point in her life she suffered from depression, paranoia, and alcoholism. She had turned against the communism and betrayed them, and just maybe she had turned against the government, particularly the FBI for much the same reasons. She was once the star of the FBI during the McCarthy era. But, not so in 1963. She may have in the later part of her life felt abandoned and deserted by the people she had helped so much. She may have felt that she had information that had to be exposed since President Kennedy was just assassinated. And, she knew something about the alleged assassin Lee Harvey Oswald. Of course most of this is speculation. My first candidate Mary Fuhrman may not have known Gardos and Blair, or any Oswalds during the 1948 period and prior. I can find no connection between the Furhmans and the Gardos. So, this is an attempt to see how this flies and how far it goes.

David, "So "a phone call" becomes "several calls" This means to me the unknown woman had a compelling urge to divulge the information she had. Perhaps, the death of Kennedy was horrific to her and she had to do something. IMO, she didn't call the Tippits for their benefit. She called to use them as a means to get her information out to someone. I don't think she realistically believed that the Tippits would not report her call to the authorities or the newspapers. It may have been her intention that the Tippits share that information. That's interesting about tracing calls and the telephone system in KY. I grew up in the 1950 and 60s in Central Kentucky. Our phone service was a rotary dial service with no connections by a human operator. You could call the operator for assistance. I didn't remember the General Telephone of Kentucky at first, but GTE was instantly recognizable. Our service was provided by a subsidiary South Central Bell. I thought those kind of systems went out generally in the 1930s and 40s at the latest. This Dobbins was over in eastern KY. Ashland is a city in the NE of Ky and I would of thought they had modern phone service in those days. However, Eastern Kentucky in those days wasn't far off from the Hollywood version of Ky you see in the movies. They are still at this archaic version of Ky as best seen in the TV show Justified. I would assume Connecticut was more modern than parts of Ky during the 1950s etc. PS I know I did not type Kentucky for Kennedy. 110% sure of that. This is an all to common a problem. Whoever is fooling with these posts needs to grow up and get a life.

David, Harvey and Marge absent from 7-7-1947 into the past. They come out of the past on that day. That is certainly a strange record. It is my understanding that Lee was always called Lee and hated the name Harvey. If so, why would Lee be registered as Harvey. Simple answer. Not Lee. …. I am going back over what can be learned about the unknown caller in the Tippit call. Anything needed to be added or perhaps rethought? Characteristics of the Unknown Woman in the Tippit Phone Call She was an unknown woman calling at night possibly for anonymity. She was determined to make this call and share her information. This conclusion was reached by her making several calls to the Tippits. She spoke in a nervous, agitated, low voice if not wanting to be overheard. She had some degree of political awareness or knowledge that the Tippits may be related to the slain Dallas Policeman, J. D. Tippit. General knowledge or from newspaper articles. She said she was from New York and had to come “here”. What did did “here” mean to the New Haven, Conn. FBI SAC Agent. Westport or New Haven? She did not want the call traced because she was in fear of her life. Where did she come from to “here”. New York, City or State? Another location? Or, from one nearby in calling distance or short long distance? It could be the same. She feared for her life and did not want the call reported to the newspapers. “They” would know who she was and she would be killed. One assumes that the reporters would know who she was, but who would be her killers? Could one assume that “They” could be government agencies or agents and her possible killers. Who would think the government did things like that in November, 1963? Someone who knows more than the average citizen. She was aware of the deadly seriousness of the information she was going to impart. The woman never gave any reason for her call. The call sounded local. But, didn’t have to be. Mr. Tippit and Mrs. Tippit felt the unknown woman was a mature woman and did not have a youthful voice. At one point the unknown caller began speaking “indistinctly, disjointedly, and nervously”. This reflects an earlier statement. She was said to have an accent. This accent was either Austrian, or perhaps German, or Spanish. Mrs. Tippit thought German or Austrian and Mr. Tippit thought Spanish. Maybe because of the confusion in accents the unknown caller could be faking an accent to keep her identity anonymous. IMO, Loud or harsh Hungarian sounds more like Russian and low or soft Hungarian has a vague Spanish sound. Without getting into the text of what she said, one can infer she knew the people she was talking about to some degree, and the circumstances of the events. In order to know Emil Gardos in New York this must have occurred before 1948. Emil and wife leaves for Hungary in 1948 on a self-imposed exile. Louis Weinstock was supposed too, but didn’t. A brother in law is mentioned. This could be Fred Blair, the brother in law of Emil Gardos. She would have known him around 1947 when Fred went underground due to the Red Scare or before. She mentions a Weinstock. This could be Louis Weinstock. It could indicate his brother in law. Along with Gardos, Weinstock was a Hungarian communist. However, Louis Weinstock did not have a known brother in law. I want to have a good list to apply against a possible candidate for the unknown caller. It's speculation. But, sometimes that might lead into the right area for thinking and evaluation.

Harvey and Lee pretty much covers Marguerite Oswald on her origins and life. As far as Harvey goes I think somewhere around 1947-48 or so. I believe (David Josephs can correct my faulty memory) Harvey is unknown any time prior to that year. Lee Harvey Oswald was her child. Although some of the baby pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald are Harvey's. That's some planning using Harvey's baby photos to show Lee Oswald as a baby and indicates that the real parents of Harvey were into this plan totally. The photos of Harvey as a baby may be from Hungary or from the US. My bet is the US. "The FBI probably knows who the caller is because they could ask the Tippit's telephone company for their telephone records. These records would provide the numbers of all people who called them. Tina made notes on the calls and given that she received a number of calls, the FBI could have matched the dates and times of the calls to the telephone records to obtain the telephone number the woman used to make the calls. If the woman did not make the call from a telephone booth, then the telephone records would have a telephone number and the name of the person that number belonged to." Phone booth or hospital hall phone? They could obtain either kind of number. I am speculating here. If Bentley made a phone call (being a wise old communist) she certainly would have taken as many precautions as possible to not be traced or identified. I don't know where Bentley lived in November, 1963. Be interesting to know more about her.

John K, I'm currently writing down my speculations on Elizabeth Bentley. She is a person who died 3 days after the Tippit Call in New Haven. She was there in the hospital for abdominal surgery on Dec. 2 and died the following day. I don't know, but speculating she may have arrived early to New Haven for surgery. She may have lived in the area. She knew the folks involved. She was a top-level communist spy who later betrayed the communists to the FBI. She was given in 1944 the Order of the Red Star. I'll have more to say later.

John K, Seriously good work with the Tippit Brown lady. You've made a number of good points. The one about the continuity of the letters stuck and answered a vague sense of something about the letters. Another was about communicating in not so normal channels. These were long term communists plotters and schemers always under watch by the Feds, particularly Grace for some reason. "Woman called here several times, always in a rush, fearing that she will be overheard." This puts a whole new light on the Tippit incident. This might point out more was said than in the FBI doc, but has been lost do to memory over the years. The idea the unknown woman in the Tippit phone call called the Tippit family more than once I would think is important? This would indicate a compelling desire to share her information, or warn the Tippits or everyone through the Tippits about something she knew concerning the assassination and the nature of Lee Harvey Oswald. Maybe inform people the plot to assassinate the President was done by elements of an old government project going back to the 1940s? This was information she possessed and had to get this out to someone somewhere because she thought it to be of extreme importance. It would seem there were events occurring that made sharing this information by this woman of extreme importance. Maybe her time was limited in some way. She knew the seriousness of exposing this information and the deadly consequences that could result. She warns the Tippits not to share this information with the newspapers. It might have a fatal effect for her. The unknown caller knew the people she spoke about. The time she referenced for these people must have been 1948 or prior since Emil and Grace vacated the country that year. Weinstock or Louis Weinstock stayed rather than voluntarily leave. That was 15 years prior to the Westport call. Her memory could have been vague, distressed by other situations happening currently, or perhaps her information disguised by vagueness such as the Woman's World. Things like that and like her accent may have been intentional to help disguise who she was. If the time was not 1948 or prior, then the second likely time period would be 1952 or so and this would be the time the Oswalds were in NYC. I have been playing with the idea that the unknown caller is someone we haven't considered at all. This lady was in the area (30 miles away at New Haven) . She could have made the trip by bus (30 minutes) and made her call. Or, she could have stayed in New Haven and made her call. The word "here" is stressed as if to indicate Westport. But, could mean New Haven. If so then the FBI would know who she was. Was this the SAC New Haven's way of saying to upper level people he knows who this was. This lady I have in mind was in New Haven at least on the 2nd of December for abdominal surgery for a cancerous tumor. She died the following day after the surgery. She was 55 years old. Could she have been there earlier for pre-operative procedures? I don't know enough to say. The woman I have in mind is Elizabeth Bentley. She was a communist until 1945 and then became a government informer. The elements of her life fit someone who would know who the communists were in NYC and some of the things they were doing. It is possible she may have know the players involved to such an extant that 15 years later she connected this information from the past to the assassination and was determined to let people know. All speculation at this point.

John K, I believe the dates for the letters are from 1971 to 1981 or so. I could be off a little bit. There were no letters from 1948-71 AND no letters from 1981 to 1993 when Grace died. I don't believe the FBI ever quit reading their letters, particularly Grace's letters. It might explain why there is little information (except family and relatively unimportant communist activities) in these letters. But, there is enough information over a 10 year period to convince one that John Gardos is alive, well, and prospering in the Worker's Paradise of Hungary. There could be coded statements in these letters that we wouldn't recognize or perhaps the FBI. Why would the FBI be interested in her after so many years and then react in a major way after finding out from their chief spy that Grace was unhappy and wanted to return to the US? It took major cooperation between American communists leaders (Gus Hall and Morris Childs) to get permission for her to come the US from the Hungarian Socialist Workers Party. A top Central Committee member had to agree. The HSWP offered to pay her way to the states in 1966. That was ruined by the FBI informer Morris Childs, the Solo Spy. He informed the FBI that she planned to return to the US. They reacted in what I would consider an exaggerated fashion. They immediately alerted offices across the country to be on the look out for her or someone like her in a delegation of Hungarians and perhaps Russians. After they learned she might want to bring her son to the US they considered opening a cointelpro operation against her. Why? What was so important? Grace and Emile were fairly well trusted by the Hungarian government. They went on a mission to India in 1955, I believe. Emile, at his 55th birthday, was awarded a high communist medal for his long service and being a good communist in America and Hungary. That wouldn't stop the Hungarians from reading their mail. Nor, would it stop the CIA or the FBI. I thought so also. I asked a number of people if he looked in his 50s or 60s. All said the 60s. That doesn't mean a guy in his 50s could not look like a guy in his 60s. I was just curious to see if others saw what I saw.

John K, Here's one for you. How old do you think Janos is in this passport photo? Would you say 50s or 60s?

John K, Keep at it. You are a very valuable member of this research effort. Your efforts are very much appreciated by all. John, I have very little evidence to none that back up my paranoid thoughts. Percolating down in my subconscious is the notion that things have been manipulated and sanitized for our benefit. One question one might ask is where are the letters between Fred and Grace from 1948 to 1971? One could say that Fred only started saving letters starting from 1971. I don't really believe that. Then there is this: Sara, I believe was a niece (great niece?) of Grace. The communication between Fred, Grace, and other families says the above is nonsense. Or, it says that Fred and Grace's letters have been prepared to say we are just talking about family things, news, and the communist effort. I read these letters as Fred and Grace were in communications with other members of the Blair family. Grace's letters appear to suggest that she is in an enforced exile, mainly by the FBI. Remember, she tried to come back to the US in the late 60s and the FBI responded with thinking about opening a counter intelligence operation against her. This is the days of wild and often illegal Cointelpro operations. I think we need to rethink this whole situation.

While researching JFK issues, I came across this. Just a general political comment for those who advocate socialism/communism. Here's a letter from Fred Blair or his sister Grace. Not sure which. Both were until they died a dedicated communist advocates. This letter is dated Feb., 1971. It gives a good description of the worker paradise established in Hungary in the decades after WWII. Fred or Grace lists the joys and benefits of communism once it is established in a country. It is a warning from the past. Go vote for Bernie if this is what you want. And,

John K, Thanks for your Herculean efforts in finding and posting this information. It is very much appreciated and thanks again for your hard work. I scanned through these documents and have a number of concerns. I will re-read this information more carefully and get back to you on what I think. Thanks again. John K rules.

"also according to John A., some of Harvey’s photos allegedly collected by Dallas police showed military installations in Taiwan. (John said that because he had spent so much time in China, he could easily tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese characters, and several of the signs Harvey’s photos had Chinese characters.)" The FBI had all of Harvey's possessions in their control by Nov. 23, 1963. They altered and mixed up whatever they could to confuse the trail of evidence. I believe a lot of the photos went to the FBI photo lab for alteration and some were farmed out to the CIA for alteration. Oswald's photos were mixed up with Michael Paine's Army photos just for this purpose. Michael Paine was allegedly assigned to an artillery unit. There are no photos of his showing any artillery equipment, just ships, tanks, and maybe planes. The closest thing showing Paine in the artillery is a photo of GIs with unit patch of the Division he served in Korea and Japan. As another example, you can't tell whether Oswald or the Paines was at a secret radar military base in Iceland. For the Paines it could be explained that their plane did a stopover there while on a European vacation. The oriental signs in some photo do appear to be Chinese and not Japanese. There are no signs in any photo showing the Korean language. I felt this was odd since Paine was supposed to have spent about a year in Korea during the Korean War. There are no war photos to back this up. There are no photos with artillery equipment.

Jim, "A “URETHRAL DISCHARGE” sure sounds like the clap to me. I remember being warned as a youth back in the stone age about the dangers of penicillin-resistant forms of gonorrhea and other VDs. Resistant strains of these things appear to have been a problem back then, and still are today." I have personal experience with this. This type of UTI mimics having gonnorhea or some other VD that causes a discharge of infected material that is characteristic of VD. If left untreated this will cause bleeding, scarring, and eventual long term problems. Fortunately, for me the medics in Korea instantly recognized what was going on and I received treatment with Pyridium and Furadantin. These are sulfa drugs that treat viral infections. Gonnorhea is bacteriological disease that is most successfully treated with penicillin. Lee Oswald was eventually treated with Pyridium and that took care of his problems. This viral infection was determined to have come from eating local food or drinking the water, say in coffee or tea. Since GIs served in both Japan, Korea, and other places in the Orient. This was a problem around all military bases in the Orient. They might not have known this in Oswald's time of 1958. The first thing that took place as we GIs stepped off the plane in Korea was that the doctors took over with injections for various Korean diseases and with lectures on what to do to keep yourself from contracting some of these problems. The doctors said Korea was the worst place in the world for diseases. This comes from using human feces as fertilizer on their crops for thousands of years. A tour in Korea is jokingly called "The Honey Bucket Run" by old timers in the Army. The first admonition the doctors had was "Do not drink the water in Korea." Eat and drink only on the American bases. Some of us didn't listen and suffered accordingly. Now, to the sad part of this. Whenever your immune system is weak this particular problem comes back. I had by my count, not the evil VA's, 14 UTI infections between Dec., 1967 and May., 1969. In my old age with other diseases from Korea I have one of these about every year or two years. Modern drugs today take care of this with no problems. The last one of these UTIs for many years occurred during my first year in college in 1970. I went to my family doctor. I explained what was going on and what the treatment for this was. However, he insisted I had the clap. He said he was very familiar with and treated this all the time. He simply wouldn't listen and I was treated for the clap with penicillin which had absolutely no effect. A week later I convinced him after a lab report that the proper treatment for the problem was sulfa drugs, namely Pyridium and Furadantin. There is a possibility that Lee Oswald may have had both kinds of diseases, viral and bacteriological. Penicillin will take care of the VD, but do nothing for a viral infection. You can see this in the lengthy treatment and the eventual use of Pyridium and his discharge medically. This also says the medics didn't know what they were treating for a while. "This is the type of argument often made by H&L critics, and I can only say that the people who planned this operation were not idiots and must have had a way to deal with the issue. Do we know how many marines were stationed at Atsugi in 1958? This, I assume, would be the total from which the 11 soldiers stationed at Ping Tung on 10/6/58 with HARVEY Oswald were selected." I am by no means making a "lone nut" argument. Or, expressing any real disagreement with the Harvey and Lee story. These different views are iffy and should be treated as such. You are right with "the people who planned this operation were not idiots and must have had a way to deal with the issue." They, Harvey and Lee, were refining this role in various schools and since working at Tujaques and Michels in New Orleans in 1955, I believe. I see this as the first real test of Harvey and Lee with Tujaques being one floor above or below, not recalling which, the other. This went on for only a week or so and is partly the reason I see this as a test of roles. I believe one of their ways to carry this off was to act surly, uncommunicative, and walk away mumbling something. If you do this consistently people won't pay attention to you and just ignore your presence. I believe the Dejanovich story at Iwakuni is a good example of this as Dejanovich's friendship was rebuffed by Harvey.

"None of the questions can be answered because the evidence is to weak. Could you say intentionally or purposively?" This statement concerns minor issues that folks could have a different view on in the roles of Lee Harvey Oswald (Harvey and Lee) during their foreign service. The main evidence is solid and in my opinion irrefutable. The main evidence for Harvey being on the USS Skagit on his way to Taiwan and his brief stay there while Lee is at Atsugi being treated for a VD/UTI disease is based upon actual Marine Corps records showing movement orders for Harvey to Taiwan and medical records showing Lee being treated at Atsugi during the same time period. The evidence for this is of "smoking gun" quality. This episode concerning where they were during the months of Sept. and Oct., 1958 is solid proof there was a Harvey and Lee portraying the role of Lee Harvey Oswald. Furthermore, this is just one of many "smoking gun" issues involving Harvey and Lee that can be traced back to their early childhood. I post this for the reader to know there is no real disagreement between the people who are currently discussing the foreign service of the two men who comprised the role of Lee Harvey Oswald.

David, I don't think I can answer your question with any real success because I don't have all the information necessary. "Great point about HARVEY being sent directly to Yokosuka.... yet I need to mention Oct 7 - Oct 13, 1958 CE1961 says Oswald was in the Hospital again... " Lee was still being treated for VD/UTI up to Oct. 24, 1958. The reason for this long treatment is he did not have VD. This can't be Harvey since he is on his way to Iwakuni on Oct. 6 and there is no mention there of any hospitalization. Either for VD/UTI or any mental disorder. Jim says, "But sometime between Ping Tung and Santa Ana Harvey may have been at the Naval Air Base at Iwakuni, Japan. John wrote, “ While Lee Oswald was frequenting the Atsugi Hospital, Harvey Oswald was temporarily assigned to a Marine squadron at lwakuni, an air base 400 miles southwest of Tokyo. There are no Marine Corps records of such a transfer nor is such a transfer recorded on the Marine Corps Unit Diaries but Owen Dejanovich, who first met Harvey Oswald at radar school in Biloxi in May/June, 1957 saw and recognized him at lwakuni. Dejanovich thought that Oswald had grown bitter toward the Marines, and recalled seeing him occasionally talking to a Eurasian girl. After Oswald departed lwakuni he apparently returned to the US mainland.” [H&L, 205-206] " The Dejanovich story says nothing about a hospitalization. He talks about Harvey being different from the Oswald he knew at Biloxi. There is no mention of a physical difference just a character and attitude change. Dejanovich recognized Harvey after about a years separation from Biloxi. The question that has always bother me is did he know Lee or Harvey at Biloxi. I have no way to answer that. But, it does have bearing on the night and subsequent day surrounding the 13th of Sept. Lee Oswald's unit at Atsugi was sent to Taiwan. Lee did not go from later records, particularly the one saying he was assigned to a rear unit at Atsugi on the 14th. Harvey is the Oswald on the Skagit. According to Trail's statements to the FBI agent Harvey was taken from the stockade, frog marched to Lt. Trail, and sent on his way to the Skagit to join his unit. This would be Lee Oswald's unit. Would anyone notice that this new Oswald (Harvey) was different from the old Oswald (Lee). I say someone would. These men in the radar unit were in close contact with each other for a long period of time. It is not recorded anywhere that someone did or would. Remember the lady in Dallas who spotted the difference between Harvey and Lee due to their short period of time appearance before her. I know they, the two Oswalds, had a similar appearance. But, that appearance was not identical requiring some time between when the witness saw an Oswald and the ID of Harvey as Lee. Lee Oswald was released from the stockade on Aug. 13, 1958. Did he go back in for something that allowed him to be released on the night of the 13th. Was he, Harvey, delivered from the US, court martialed and demoted, maybe under guard to the Atsugi brig so that he could be seen to be in the brig. It doesn't make sense. How would this acclimatize Harvey to Lee's unit at Atsugi and aboard the Skagit. There simply is not enough evidence to answer these questions. Did Trail's FBI man make up the shoeless story? Or, other elements? It still sounds like the kind of material to strength the Lone Nut Gunman theory. There is controversy about Oswald's time at Iwakuni. Some say he was not there at all. Some say he was there for a short period of time. He could have left for the US as early as the 6th or the 13th by ship in time to be at Santa Ana by the 29th of Oct. Or, did he leave by plane sometime during mid to late Oct. It was roughly a 17 hour trip from Japan to the US. Fort Lewis, Wa. to Yokohama I believe by commercial flight. This would make it a longer trip to Santa Ana, CA but, certainly could be done in one day. Perhaps. a little longer if by military flight. None of the questions can be answered because the evidence is to weak. Could you say intentionally or purposively? "According to the report, it was "At the time their group was moving to Taiwan...." which was on the 14th (or I suppose, the 13th). Whether you assume the move started on the 13th or the 14th doesn't seem to make a big difference here, does it?" It would not make much of a difference if the shoeless incident occurred at Atsugi at night on the 13th. However, it could make a big difference if this occurred on the way to Yokosuka in the daytime in the eyes of the public.