John Butler

Unless there is further information to back up the contentions in this information then I would discount it as speculation with little merit.

I am still working on Aminthe Voitier. She has a confusing record with her sister Jeanne Emily Voitier Carter. Jeanne is listed as Aminthe Jeanne Carter. I don't think there are 3 sisters confused here, just two. I do not believe Aminthe Voitier ever married. Jeanne Voitier Carter married at age 18 to Harold A. Carter. But, she lost Harold in some way by 1940. The 1930 census still lists her as married, but no Harold. In 1940 Aminthe Voitier is working as a nurse at an Isolation Hospital and Jeanne Carter is working as a clerk there. No where in these records is a Leon mentioned as the son of Aminthe. There are no mention of a death record, or grave record, or social security record for Jeanne Carter. She did not have any children in the 1920, 1930, and 1940 Census with no children. The prior post on Mysterious Marge being a practical nurse for $10 or a baby nurse may connect her to Aminthe Voitier or Jeanne Carter who worked as a clerk in a hospital and may have claimed to be a nurse later. Just speculation. However, there is an age difference between the two, Aminthe and Mysterious Marge, of about 10 years. Aminthe Voitier, since her mother Marie was a Claverie, would be a second cousin (1st cousin once removed) to Marguerite Claverie, mother of Lee Oswald. That would make Marcel and John Claverie as brothers. This must be why Mysterious Marge and say, lets call her True Marge, Marguerite Claverie, mother of Lee Oswald look so much alike except for height and weight. In earlier photos their facial features have some resemblance IMO. Except for age Aminthe Voitier could be Mysterious Marge. It is a weak case just based on nursing at this point. Aminthe Claverie Winfrey is outside the areas of the Voitiers or Carters. She is mainly in Ky, Tenn, and La. Found a death record for her in Lexington, Ky, but didn't copy it. Will look again for that record. (found it- Aminthe (Mancy) Claverie Winfrey buried in Lexington, Ky about 3-11-1993.) Her age rules her out as Mysterious Marge. At this point I am like Lee Oswald (or was it Harvey) in New Orleans in 1963. I don't know anything about the Oswald family. Why would True Marge not tell Lee anything about his family. He must have wondered about his father and other Oswald relatives at some time prior to 1963? If Mysterious Marge was involved she would not have known much about the Oswald family. If Mysterious Marge is a relative of True Marge, then there would be some sort of extensive connection in this family to intelligence agencies. Intelligence connections are alleged for Marilyn Murret, Dutz Murret, John Pic, Robert Oswald, True Marge's second husband Ekdahl, and of course Harvey and Lee. And, maybe Aminthe Voitier as Mysterious Marge. That connection is very weak. You can make a claim (of the same weak nature) for Jeanne Voitier Carter as a possibility for Mysterious Marge. She in later times could claim to be a nurse base on hospital experience. "If Mysterious Marge is a relative of True Marge" I just noticed this would be a real hoot or talking point for the WC crowd. Sorry.

Jim, Marguerite Oswald (Mysterious Marge) is said to have earned $10 a day as a practical nurse. In another context she was said to be a baby nurse. Didn't she drop out of high school? When did she take training as a nurse? Was she a nurse?

It will take a while assembling the info to go with each name. I'll post that when I finish it. There is a wonderful source on listing Kennedy books, it is searchable, on the Mary Ferrell site. However, it is not free. To access that you have to be a member. I think it should be free, but the people who put that list and searchable links to the information need to be compensated for their hard work and effort.

I don't think the facts are right here. I do believe there is a possibility of a 3rd Oswald and perhaps more. However, the evidence for such is weak. The best is the short Oswald on the Minsk bridge. Who wasn't as short as he appeared due to Marina's two inch high heels. I believe the other Oswalds in the Defector Program set did not resemble Lee or Harvey enough to be used openly. These folks would become Oswald doubles when necessary such as Billy Seymour who may have been Leon Oswald. This brings up a question was there more than two young children selected from photos? Harvey and Lee were a fair match in later years. What if the others were not such as the boy at the zoo? Most of the time we are left with assumptions that may take us to something useful, but not really provable such as Marilyn Murret identifying Nancy Winfrey. Here is one that bounces around in my head from time to time. In 1942 it became known as a possibility or fact that the Germans would lose WW2. And, by the summer of 1943 the Germans were losing the war. This was a surety indicated by the many German defeats suffered at the hands of the Russians. It is during this two years that leaders in the intelligence field and foreign policy field such as William Donovan, Allen Dulles, John Foster Dulles and several others whose strategic mind set made them aggressive competitors toward the Russians. As early as 1942-1943 the Russians were seen as the new enemy. A Defector Program was seen as an one of a number of aggressive programs to strike first at the enemy. The Venona program info on how the Russians had infiltrated government may be the root cause of a US effort to infiltrate the Soviet Union with spies/defectors in later years.

Jim, I have another "not a clue" to what is being talked about here.

Jim, I don't have a clue as to what "The W/C mother, Aminthe Voitier" means. Aminthe Jeanne Voitier was a nurse and in 1940 Census she was working at an Isolation Hospital in New Orleans. At the time she is 45 years old, single, with no children. Other records list her as being in New Orleans and no record of anywhere else. She died in 1965. There is no mention of any children. What happened to baby Leon? She doesn't make a good Mysterious Marge since Marge was still alive in 1965.

Almost everything I have read or know about Lee Harvey Oswald and the Kennedy Assassination is contradictory ranging from a little off to a lot. It is the genius of the spin doctors in the FBI and CIA that keep us in a continual argument with WC supporter crowd. At first impression scanning through the two pages it looks like the researcher didn't get his facts right. Just at first glance I have many reservations. Without looking closely he has his Harvey and Lee mixed up. Aminthe Voitier as versus Aminthe Claverie Winfrey? There is an Aminthe Voitier who was the daughter of Paul and Marie Voitier, but she would be 33 years old in 1930 and Aminthe Claverie would be 19. In 1963 Aminthe Claverie the sister of Marguerite Claverie Oswald would be 52. And Aminthe Voitier would be 66 years of age. Marie Claverie Voitier would be the wife of Paul Voitier. She was the mother of Aminthe, her daughter, and aunt to Aminthe Claverie. The close appearance of Mysterious Marge could be due to Marcel Claverie, the father of Marie Claverie Voitier, and Marie. There would need to a great deal more research on that. Particularly with photos for the various appearances. Could she be Mysterious Marge who sometimes took a job as a nurse be the aunt, Aminthe Votier. That could explain the closeness of their appearance. Before I would agree to any of the two pages I would have to do a great deal more research.

Joe, You make a lot of good points. It is a supposition that Guy Bannister's death was a violent, suspicious death. But, because of the circumstances of his life, that is not a far-fetched assumption. "LBJ/Billy Sol Estes corruption investigator Henry Marshall's June 3rd, 1961 death in Texas by 5 so-called self-inflicted rifle shot wounds ( and exhaust carbon monoxide poisoning and head bashing against his truck as well) being ruled a suicide by the coroner there might be considered a reasonably debatable example of such...no?" There are many situations like this in the time of the Kennedy Assassination. So, it is no wonder people are cynical about the deaths of Kennedy or Johnson involved people. Jim Marr's list has been added too by me. Any time he had a cause of death listed as murder I went back and checked for more info. Many of those murders were by gunshot, strangulation, a blow to the head or neck. Since there were so many heart attacks listed, more than normal and talked about before, some could be a violent death or murder. There were poison dart and poison gas guns using hydrogen cyanide that would produce a heart attack and leave no traces to indicate a violent murderous death in that time period. The drug overdose death of Marilyn Monroe is thought by many, and several books have been written about it, to be truly a murder. Some books have Peter Lawford, the brother in law of John Kennedy, killing Marilyn along with Robert Kennedy and her psychiatrist. This supposedly is a death bed confession of Peter Lawford. IMO, this event gives Hoover along with others control of Robert Kennedy and also greenlights the planned assassination. Some would think that is a bit far-fetched, but Robert Kennedy killing Marilyn Monroe isn't? Just deniable.

Jim and David, Best Candidate For Nancy Oswald: Mancy Winfrey formerly Aminthe Claverie and dauther Nanny or Nancy Let’s assume that the Nancy Oswald and Lee Oswald spoken of in the school records of the Lily Clayton Elementary School in the 1947-1948 school year in Fort Worth, TX were actually related. This is an assumption, but one that is not far-fetched. Let’s assume that for a short period of time, perhaps two years, Marquerite Ekdahl/Oswald took care of the girl called Nancy Oswald, a niece of Marguerite. This girl, if this assumption is true, would be Nanna, Nannie, or Nancy Winfrey as identified by Marilyn Murret in her WC testimony. Her mother would be Aminthe or Mancy Claverie Winfrey who was the sister of Marguerite. There are further assumptions that need to be made concerning the birthday of Nancy Winfrey. Her birthday changes form record to record variously listed as 1938, 1939, and 1940. The 1940 Census Record gives an age of 3/12 months or a rough estimate of January, 1940. The Public Record Index for 1950-1993 lists Nancy M. Sweeney as being born on Dec. 30, 1939. This date is in accord with the 1940 Census Record for Nancy Winfrey. Nancy Moore Winfrey married Edward Louis Sweeney on June 10, 1963. Nannie or Nancy Winfrey is Nancy M. Sweeney. The middle name Moore comes from her father Andrew Jackson Winfrey. Moore was his mother’s name which was Nanny Moore Fawbush. Nancy was probably called Nanny after her grandmother. What has to be assumed here is that Marguerite Ekdahl/Oswald perhaps for matters of convenience in entering her into school changed her name and birth date. She was related, but perhaps she couldn’t prove guardianship so listed her as a daughter. But, that would make the Oct. 18 birthday for Lee and Oct. 19 birthday for Nancy really weird. So, how does this come about. The following genealogy records can be put together for the Claverie sisters. Marguerite Oswald nee Claverie had 3 sisters. Pearl Claverie Whittaker, Lillian Claverie Murret, and Aminthe (Mancy) Claverie Winfrey. There were two brothers, but not significant for this discussion. John died in Dec. 10, 1923 and Charles died in July 10, 1923. It is Aminthe or Mancy as she is sometimes referred to from time to time that is important for this record. Aminthe Jeanne Claverie was born after the 1910 Census probably during 1911 as the 1920 Census has her as 9 years old. In the 1920 Census she is living with Paul and Marie Voitier. Marie Voitier was the aunt of Aminthe. Her parents were Marcel Claverie and Jeanne Cazebat. Her mother was the source of her middle name Jeanne. These records indicate the Claverie family underwent hard times prior to 1920 and then after. The 1930 Census shows that Paul Voitier had a daughter Aminthe and a niece Aminthe. The niece is 19 years old and as we will see, in the next Census of 1940, the mother of Nanny or Nancy Winfrey. Nannie Winfrey or true name Nancy Winfrey Other records show the Winfrey family moving about in Louisiana, Tennessee, and Kentucky during the 1930s and 1940s. Perhaps during this time, 1947 to 1948, Andrew and Mancy experienced hard times requiring Marguerite to take care of Nanny or Nancy. The records on Nancy Winfrey in later times give no indication that Nancy Winfrey is the first cousin of Lee Oswald. I think in later life she didn't want that known. She is a good candidate for Nancy Oswald at Lily Clayton Elementary, but as the old Senator from SC said, paraphrasing, there's to much assuming going on.

I guess I really screwed the pooch on that one. I really don't like that expression, but it is a favorite one in my family. I just thought that he was older and in a more retired status. Sorry. I have been doing some genealogy work on someone who might be Nancy Oswald. I didn't get anywhere and then posted that to David. However, the wife took over and there is now more information I can post.

I had difficulty seeing the image so I enlarged and sharpened the image.

David, I am checking out a person Nan, or Nanny, (Marilyn Murret referred to her as Nanny) or Nancy Winfrey birth listed variously as 1938 or 1939. She is the daughter of Mancy Winfrey who was Mancy Claverie (Aminthe) the sister of Marguerite Oswald. They lived in Frankfort, KY. Marilyn Murret's WC testimony is the source of Mancy Winfrey living in Frankfort, Ky. Her daughter Nancy is going to school there in 1954-1956. This is as close to Nancy Oswald as I have come. And, that's it. There is nothing after 1956.

Yep. The number one killer of the 20th century was TB. A lot of people didn't live long enough to get Cancer or have a heart attack. 1 out of 7 I believe were the stats. I include Bannister because of his heart attack. Since so many people died of violent causes during that time it is hard not to speculate that some or all of the heart attacks could have been by poison gas or dart.

There is inaccurate information in that post. It has been deleted. Thanks for picking up on that. Marylin Murret doesn't show up in Japan until the fall of 1959 if you believe John Pic. I was thinking the fall of 1958 about early Oct. However, in John Pic and Marilyn Murret's testimonies there are a few inconsistencies. In her WC testimony, Liebeller does not question her about her stay in Japan. She mentions she was in Japan and other places. Liebeller ignores that. She also said "Miss MURRET. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and I saw his brother, John." Question is how did Marilyn know that about Oswald's defection when she visited John Pic in Oct. or Nov. 1959? Or, as he says early Nov. when she had just come from a stay in Australia. John Pick does speak of Marylin in Japan, but does so in a confused manner. Mr. PIC - Sir, in the testimony of Marilyn Murret, I am going to make a statement. Mr. JENNER - What testimony of Marilyn Murret? Mr. PIC - This is what I am going to tell you that prior to his defection she knew he was in Europe and everywhere that I read in here, no one knew he was going to Europe. She informed me before anyone knew he defected that he was in Europe. Mr. JENNER - Who informed you? Mr. PIC - Marilyn Murret in Japan. She was in Japan. She visited with me. Mr. JENNER - All right. I will go into that right after dinner. Mr. PIC - All right, sir. Mr. JENNER - We will suspend until 7:30. (Whereupon, at 6:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) The proceeding was reconvened at 7:55 p.m. Mr. JENNER - When we adjourned for dinner you were telling us the incident in August, I believe it was 1958, when you visited your mother and your brother on your way to California on your assignment to Japan. (If John Pic is on his way to Japan in about August, 1958 what in the world took over a year, about 14 months, to get there. Did Liebeller make a mistake? If this mistake was actually August, 1959 that doesn't make sense either.) Mr. PIC - Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER - Would you read me the last answer of the witness, please? (The answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.) Mr. JENNER - Marilyn Murret is your cousin? Mr. PIC - Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER - One of the children of Charles and Lillian Murret? Mr. PIC - Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER - By the way, did your wife and children accompany you to Japan? Mr. PIC - Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER - And you arrived in Japan about when? Mr. PIC - 10 November 1958, sir. Mr. JENNER - Were you aware before you left for Japan that Marilyn Murret, was in Japan? Mr. PIC - She was not in Japan then, sir. Mr. JENNER - All right. You arrived in Japan and went over there sometime while you were in Japan. By the way, first where were you stationed? Mr. PIC - My military address was U.S.A.F. Hospital, Tachikawa, APO 323, San Francisco, Calif. Mr. JENNER - You heard from or saw Marilyn Murret after you got there? Mr. PIC - Right. In approximately October-November, early November, the end of October 1959 she called me up at the hospital. and it bad been years since I had seen her, and she told me she had come from Australia. She was traveling around the world, and I invited her out to the house the next weekend. She couldn't come during the week. She was teaching school in Japan and as a freelance teacher working for no agency, just doing this to earn her own traveling money. So she visited us on a Sunday, I believe. (Did she just come from Australia or was she in Japan for some time teaching. Which will it be Mr. Pic?) We talked about the family and everything. She talked about Lee, about how proud he was to be in the Marine Corps, and he really put on a big show about this. Mr. JENNER - How did she know that, did she reveal? Mr. PIC - She had seen him,'evidently, when he was first in the Marine Corps. She described him in uniform, and-- Mr. JENNER - You had the impression she had actually seen him in Japan? Mr. PIC - No; she wasn't in Japan the same time he was. This is a year after I am in Japan, sir, before I had seen her. Mr. JENNER - I see. Looks like John Pic had not really learned his lines. He appears confused on some issues. I may have been correct in my assumption but the witness testimony of Marilyn Murret and John Pic are too confused to say that confidently. "Dejanovich relates that Oswald kept company with a round-eyed Russian Girl. This accompanying a round-eyed Russian Girl occurred for a short period of time. Romance or Spying? Was Harvey at Iwakuni more that a week? Was this time enough for romance? Could this have been his cousin, Marilyn Murret, who was in Japan at the same time?" This inaccurate speculation of mine is where I went off the beaten trail.

I'm not an actuarist. I would think that the odds on this are greater than astronomical.

Bannister is not on Marr's list. I'm going to add him under heart attack. Coronary Thrombosis=heart attack. More than likely from what you have said this was a violent death.

I am going to add Jim Marrs list of deaths from 1964 to 1976. There is 103 names on the list and 82 of them can be considered as violent deaths. I add heart attacks to this list because the CIA had a poison gas gun or dart gun during that period which through prussic acid or hydrogen cyanide would induce a heart attack and leave no trace. 82 violent deaths: Gunshot - 21 deaths- Where Marrs had murdered or some other description upon further checking revealed the cause of death was gunshot Vehicular- 13 deaths- includes air vehicles Blow to the head or neck- 3 Throat cut- 1 Heart Attack- 24- If this based on the speculation that these deaths could be from violence. Fall- 2 Drug Overdose- 2 Electrocution- 2 Murder- unspecified- 7 Suicide- 8 IMO, no other population has suffered death caused by violence as witnesses or connected people to the Kennedy assassination, including those sent to war. When you realize what happened here anyone getting into the Kennedy Research field or connected to the assassination is a hero when faced with this situation. More so in the past than today.

Does this mean Harvey is at the same school as Nancy Lee as the situation was in 1947-48?

Post deleted due to inaccurate information. John Pic is in Japan on Nov. 10, 1958 after all the other Oswald members have left.

Jim, Glad to hear that about Mr. Armstrong. Don't worrying about nominating yourself. I have already done that and since it is my list you have to stay on it. This list is evolving and turning out to be better than what I thought. More and More people are participating and suggesting folks. I just hope I don't get in trouble doing info cutting and pasting from the internet.

I always chew myself out later for taking the easy way out. At one time I was all about conflict and confrontation. Not so much anymore.

Here's 9 more for the list: By my count, we have 9 witnesses who claim they saw a bullet hole in windshield: Frank Cormier, St Louis Dispatch Richard Dudman, St Louis Dispatch Stavis Ellis, DPD HR Freeman, DPD Dr Evalea Glanges Bill Greer, SS (told to Nick Prencipe, US Parks Police) Joe Paolella, SS Charles Taylor, Jr, SS George Whitaker, Ford

No problem John K.

It's far worse than that. I come from a family that were and still are yellow-dog democrats. At one time I thought Lyndon Johnson was the best president ever. I even cheated to vote for him at age 17 in 1964. I thought I had pulled a fast one. Not so, the county officials were glad to get another democratic vote. How I became disenchanted with Johnson and the Kennedy Assassination I owe to Dan Rather. Dan Rather did a two part series in the mid 70s on the Kennedy Assassination. In which Oswald was hired and worked at Jaggers-Child-Stovall. This was a firm that dealt with U2 and satellite photos of Cuban during the Cuban Crisis. What was Oswald, a defector to the Soviet Union and a professed Marxist (socialist, Marxist, communist are all communists in my opinion) doing there? I went to Dealey Plaza in 2015 and walked around for the afternoon. Met Robert Groden and his crew. There I saw a placard with the Altgens 7 photo on it. I struck me that can't be right. There were railroad men on the underpass, about 10. I had seen something that said differently. Actually, there are about 5 films/photos showing no one on the railroad bridge as the limousine approaches it. Another was looking at the Backyard Photos. One look and you could see it was a fake. That was confirmed by Jack White's work.