John Butler

I don't believe you can conflate these two incidents into one with any probability of relationship. What happened with Harvey Oswald was close to 10 years prior (late 50s and early 60s) to whatever I was doing in 1968. It is my opinion Harvey got his from a government agency and not through some other means. I suspect, with no evidence, that this type of camera was carefully monitored. Mine disappeared after sending a roll of film to be processed two times. It vanished from a locked foot locker with no evidence of tampering. When I bought my Minox I did not know it was a spy camera. It was different from the ones usually pictured that Harvey Oswald had. Mine had an aluminum case and no external features. You had to slide open the camera to access controls for putting in film and pushing a button to take the film. Sliding open the camera armed it for taking the next photo. Closing and then reopening the camera advanced the film and allowed one to take another photo.

I have to correct myself. Paris Island out and Parris Island in for the correct spelling. Going back and reviewing my notes it seems I have a bad habit of misspelling Parris Island. As we use to say in Ed. environment "Learn it wrong and it stays wrong." My next error is that I was merging Parris Island with Camp Lejeune. Camp Lejeune, SC should be the location where Steve Landesburg (student) says he was there with Lee Oswald. Not being a Marine those kind of things don't stick in my mind. I don't believe I would have mixed up Army forts. Good catch on my sometimes erratic memory. According to my notes, Steve Landesburg (student) said he was in Camp Lejeune with Lee Oswald during the summer of 1956. Here's my note on this: Jim Rizzuto (Steven H. Landesberg, the student) said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg, the actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956. I believe this statement by Rizzuto has a more than likely chance to be true based on FBI performance. So, the statement above allows me to conclude with other information from the Harvey and Lee site (Lee Oswald’s PFC rank in the fall of 1956) that Harvey and Lee entered military service at different times and left the service at different times. To me this clears up the problem of Lee and Harvey leaving the Marine Corps at different times. They joined at different times. Lee Oswald at age 16 and Harvey at age 17. Lee Oswald: About March or slightly later, 1956 to March, 1959. Harvey Oswald: October 24, 1956 to September 11, 1959. and, I believe this is from the Harvey and Lee site: “Jim Rizzuto (Steven H. Landesberg, the student) said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg, the actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956.”

Ditto. The character of Harvey Oswald (an unknown person) and Lee Oswald (the original Lee Harvey Oswald) were merged to form one Identity, Lee Harvey Oswald by government agencies before and after the assassination of President Kennedy. Although these government agencies tried, not everything was successfully merged between these two individuals. Things were missed or couldn't be merged. For whatever reasons I process information in Word docs better than information in Excel spreadsheets. David Josephs has prepared an excellent spreadsheet timeline of the events of Harvey and Lee's lives. It is well documented and in my opinion irrefutable. From this timeline, I went over the years 1959-1963 to see how many times Lee Oswald could be identified during those years. I transferred that info into a word doc for my preferences. The end result is that there are 65 occurrences of Lee Oswald during that period through records of various kinds and witness statements. These are occurrences where Harvey Oswald has also been identified as being in another place or the same place as Lee Oswald at the same time. These events cannot be explained as something other than a government agency operation running two individuals identified as the same person in matters involving intelligence operations. In other words Harvey and Lee were government intelligence agents run by the CIA, FBI, and military intelligence agencies such as the ONI and Army Intelligence. Neither Harvey Oswald or Lee Oswald were wannabe spies, lacking in credentials, and used by the government as useful idiots. These two men were part of a government project years in the making. The origin of this program goes back to the end of WWII when folks like Allen Dulles and other high ranking OSS personnel, and later CIA people, conceived a means to strike at the new enemy that had emerged after WWII, the Soviet Union. It started as a false defector program and became something else when that program ended.

In order to use David Josephs timeline in a better fashion I went through and listed all the references to Lee Oswald when Harvey could be listed as being somewhere else or in the same location. There are 15 pages in a Word doc with such occurrences. David has compiled a record that can't be challenged. One might challenge an entry or two, but the entire thing is irrefutable. I learned that there are at least 10 references to Harvey and Lee being in New Orleans at the same time. As far as the Paris Island reference, Steve Landesberg (student) mentions that during the summer of 1956 he was at Paris Island with Lee Oswald. I find this to be reasonable and it explains much concerning the service of Lee Oswald, particularly his discharge in March, 1959. No, I don't recall that the admin of any company I was serving with in the Army ever encouraging or suggesting one fill out their IRS forms. I received hostile fire pay while in Korea, but was not classified as being in a combat zone. Many of the incidents and events that happened in Korea from 1967 to 1969 were covered up and hidden by the US Army. They were not reported to the public or the incident information was lessened or changed. Reason being, Johnson did not want a second war front or combat area recognized while combat was occurring in Viet Nam. It had to do with money.

This squares with a lot of the things I see, particularly in the photo and film evidence.

Jim, Every time you mention the Minox spy camera I think of the one I had in Korea. I've finally remembered where I bought it. The Koreans were legendary thieves and the old timers told many stories of things stolen under guard by GIs. I'm fairly sure this camera was stolen from some army base or intelligence base. It ended up in a kimchi shop, known as Frankie's Store in Chang Pa Ri, Korea. That's where I bought it. It was rumored that you buy anything there. Want a tank? If you had enough money. Want a slave? If you had enough money. This is a photo taken with the Minox. It is not that good because I am the one who developed it with no training or experience. I think this had to do with two sets of military records, One for Harvey and another for Lee. Lee's would have been from about March, 1956 to March, 1959, (he was discharged in March, 1959) and Harvey's from October to the end of the year. (October to December, 1956) One of these records could have shown that Lee Oswald trained at Paris Island, SC rather than in California as Harvey did. There is some information to support this.

Thanks Steve, I will add the additional note to the other notes. It is valuable to have such a reference note to help your memory later on when this may come back up again.

Harvey Lee Oswald records thanks primarily to Steve Thomas who pointed out many of these. (See Steve's posts this thread) These are incidents where the name Harvey Lee Oswald used. 31 July 1959- Harvey Lee Oswald, PFC at Santa Ana? (Military records?) Supposedly their were 5 references for the military listed by Peter Dale Scott. I could go back and find those. October 5, 1959- February 25, 1964- Kenneth J. Wiesman- SS- Billy Joe Lord, Airman 3/C, interviewed at Bergstrom Air Force Base, Austin, Texas, and advises that he had no knowledge of Harvey Lee Oswald’s ultimate travel destination. Lord was on same ship as Oswald SS Marion Lykes. Shared cabin with Harvey Lee Oswald. On Oct. 5, 1959 debarked ship at LaPalisse, France. Never saw Oswald again. Dec. 11, 1961- Harvey Lee Oswald hired as regulator in the Experimental Shop January 13, 1960. Bad conduct report and poor performance. 8/9/63- Lt. Francis Martello interviewed “Harvey Lee Oswald” in a New Orleans jail. August 10, 1963- About 10:00 am Martello instructed the jailer to bring Harvey Lee Oswald to him for an interview. Nov.-Dec., 1963 Lieutenant Revill listed his name as Harvey Lee Oswald and his address as 605 Elsbeth November 22, 1963- At 2:40 PM, W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley. Detective B.L. Senkel wrote in his after-action report (Dallas Police Archives Box 3, Folder# 12, Item#1) that they were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley at 2:40 PM and arrived at 3:00PM. Earlene Roberts told the WC that when the police arrived at 1026 N. Beckley, they asked for a Harvey Lee Oswald. Fall 1963?- (No date)-John A. also reports that the name “Harvey Lee Oswald” appeared five times in the Spanish language version of Sylvia Duran’s statement, which was presented to the WC six months after her mistreatment/interrogation. (H&L p. 673) November 22, 1963- Department of the Army- Staff Communications Office- The following is additional information of Oswald, Harvey Lee….5 feet 10 inches, 165 lbs, blue eyes, light brown hair, employed at Dallas County School Book Depository…. Dec.11, 1963- Harvey Lee Oswald rejected for Citizenship in USSR. Oswald’s motives for citizenship were not clear. December 19, 1963- Reference is made to the attached copy of an incoming State Department telegram dated 19 December 1963, in conjunction with the Harvey Lee Oswald case (see Tab A). This telegram concerns a Mr. and Mrs. DeMohrenschildt who appear to have lived in Dallas, Texas, but on 2 June 1963 went to Haiti and have not since returned to the United States. 1963-1994- (Mexico)- Peter Dale Scott- The Review Board also sought to determine whether the FBI maintained a file in Mexico City on a “Harvey Lee Oswald” under the file number 105-2137.... Some of the documents in the (Mexico Ciity Legal Attache) Legat's file contain notations for routing records to a file numbered 105-2137, and were captioned “Harvey Lee Oswald”, but it did not find such a file.” May 18, 1964- After the DFS and CIA made additional changes to Duran's statements, a final10-page statement was prepared, signed, and submitted to the Warren Commission on May 18, 1964, six months after her interrogation. NOTE: It remains unknown whether the CIA or DF S prepared the 1 0-page statement. It is known that the name "Harvey Lee Oswald, as reported by Duran s friends, occurs five times in the Spanish language version. Spring, 1964- After the FBI completed it's investigation in the late spring of 1964 the Mexican Police (DFS) needed to make changes to Silvia Duran's 10-page statement so that her statement did not conflict with other information about Oswald. The name "Harvey Lee Oswald" was changed to "Lee Harvey Oswald." Duran's description of Oswald as, "Blond, short, and poorly dressed," was removed. 1964?- Sheriff Decker's file on the assassination, given to the Warren Commission list the assailant's name as "Harvey Lee Oswald" (12H51) (CE 5323) Deposition of Sheriff Decker dark brown heavy folder with a label on the outside: Harvey Lee Oswald. Jan. 29-Mar. 1, 1969- During the Clay Shaw trial headed by Jim Garrison, CIA agent Donald P. Norton testified that Shaw gave him a suitcase full of cash to deliver to “Harvey Lee” in Monterrey, Mexico. (Which Monterrey is this? Is there more than one?) April 6, 1972: Director says do not make any inquiries of any source or defectors concerning Harvey Lee Oswald. I don’t see a pattern other than a more frequent use of Harvey Lee Oswald in 1963. That doesn't really mean much other then I haven't looked closely. It would be interesting to see which of these records apply to which Oswald or an Oswald double. If I have missed some of the mentions of Harvey Lee Oswald, please add to the record.

Guess and speculation is good. It helps you recognize something of importance when you run across it. For instance: Jan. 13, 1960 Harvey Oswald is sent to the largest electronics plant in the Soviet Union that specializes in radio and tv products. He is ordered to the Minsk factory as regulator in the Experimental Shop. A quality control supervisor in a section of the Soviets foremost electronic plant's experimental shop where I would assume new products were made. It spells radar and guidance system creation. It spells doom for the U2.

Could be. But, I think there is more involved. If memory serves Robert Webster was paid far less by the Soviets. I think other defectors were paid less then Webster. Harvey Oswald was paid almost as much as Kim Philby the most infamous British spy for the Soviets. There had to be something more then money for propaganda value.

The information in this report has always read like a spy report. No one would have known this information (including government agencies) in the US in the early 1960s except Harvey Oswald. He was the lone American in Minsk other than tourists coming through. The information provided is the kind of information spy agencies pay for to get. That having been said we need to consider another question. Would Harvey be 100% truthful or would the CIA allow him to be 100% truthful? I don't think he would have been truthful in some respects and the CIA would not have allowed him to be truthful on what he actually did in the Soviet Union. I'm with Mae Brussells on Harvey and the U2s. Harvey was not sent to any place higgely-piggely in the Soviet Union. He was sent rationally by order to the largest electronics factory in Russia, with 5000 workers, dealing with radio and TV components. He was sent to the Experimental Shop as a regulator (a supervisor of quality control) for a reason on Jan. 13, 1960. I speculate this reason was concerned with the U2s. He was paid the same salary as the factory director. For what reason would the Soviets do that?

David, Thanks much for this info. It looks to be very important. I, too remember reading that Lee hated to be called Harvey. Would you happen to know the date for the two Oswald signatures in Finland? The London airport dates to 10 Oct., 1959 which is to say Helsinki at around the 10th or just after? The Steenbarger interview is dated to mid-October. It would be interesting to have a more accurate date for that. It puts Lee Oswald in Germany in mid-October. Now for the big question. Does the two Oswald signatures relate to both Harvey and Lee in Finland at the same time? If so that puts Lee closer to Russia and my speculations.

Denny, This is just speculation. I have always felt that Harvey was chosen as the Patsy because he had failed somewhere along the way. Perhaps in Russia or perhaps in New Orleans. I agree on the idea that Harvey would be seen as an obvious spy. IMO, he was sent there to be caught and once caught and after a severe interrogation he would turn into a double agent and work for the Russians as a turncoat spy. He could of said he had turned against America because he had been used by the American government for his whole life. He could have said he turned against the ONI and CIA for setting him up as a defector and putting him in this situation. That was the plan to (here again in my opinion) get radar information to the Soviets in order to shoot down the U2 spy plane and keep the Cold War going by defeating any peace initiatives between Eisenhower and Khrushchev. In my speculation Harvey is sent to the Minsk Radio-Televison plant's Experimental Shop to provide information on radar devices. He is said to be sent as a regulator to the Experimental Shop in other words as a supervisor of quality control. Quality control over what? Harvey had to show some kind of value in order for the Russians to give him a superior pay equal to a plant director. This more than likely had to be something greater than the propaganda benefit of a defecting American to Russia. Being crafty Russians they still did not trust Harvey and sent about 30 spies to keep track of him, Marina included. I go a lot further than any by suggesting Lee Oswald was there also with Harvey playing their favorite Switcheroo game. This explains some of the things that appear to Harvey and other things that appear to be Lee. There is no solid proof for this just a few questionable or debatable things. I ask the question of how could Harvey accomplish anything in the spying business in Minsk under such intense observation? My answer is that Lee was switched in there when it came time to provide radar details at the Experimental Shop. Harvey assumes another identity (the one Lee used to enter the Soviet Union) elsewhere and begins setting up spy networks. Just speculation again.

From Steve Thomas' info: July 15, 1961- Lee Harvey Oswald employed as an assembler at the Radio-Television plant. Does this mean he was demoted from regulator in quality control? Was he no longer needed to supervise in the Experimental Shop?

From the internet: "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is proof that leaves you firmly convinced of the defendant's guilt. There are very few things in this world that we know with absolute certainty, and in criminal cases the law does not require proof that overcomes every possible doubt." In this case this the idea of beyond a reasonable doubt applies to the theory of Harvey and Lee and whether or not this theory has validity and plausibility. Harvey and Lee is beyond reasonable doubt based on facts alone. The quantifying of beyond reasonable doubt is generally set at the 95% confidence level of statistics. Some go to a higher level of .01, but at .05 level leaves about 5% uncertainty or falsehood. Setting aside the comments of the "lone nutters", I do not think that one can find 5% uncertainty or falsehood in the story of Harvey and Lee. Maybe closer to .01 for somethings to fit into the category of doubt. No one ever gets anything 100% correct in such as massive undertaking such as the production of Harvey and Lee as an example. There is room for some doubt. How much doubt in Harvey and Lee. Very little. Those who claim that they have the truth concerning Harvey and Lee have to generally resort to deception and bend and distort what they are saying when matched with the research behind Harvey and Lee.

Jim, No problems here. It just struck me that for those who think the Daily Worker was a Russian newspaper, it was not. It was an American communist newspaper in English started if memory serves about 1920 in Chicago and transferred to New York when that place became the center of communism in the US. Besides being a way to show people he was a Communist/Marxist, it could have been a way to keep up with people he once new such as Louis Weinstock. Grace Gardos occasionally sent articles in from Hungary. If I am remembering correctly she was their Hungarian reporter. It would be a way of sending messages to him. (I still haven't given up the idea that the Gardos and Weinstock were somehow connected to Harvey, perhaps as step parents.)

Thanks Steve, I'll look into this later when I am not so sugar deprived. When the blood sugar is low is often the time of confusion and mistakes. This is what I am looking for.

Steve, I couldn't find any information on what an "assembler" or "regulator" does in a Russian factory. Your statement of a regulator being someone involved in quality control moves the argument that Oswald was working on sophisticated electronic equipment as a person in quality control in the Experimental Shop. Once again this sounds like radar or guidance systems. The problem with this is Lee Oswald was the person sent to secret bases involving black operation matters concerning atomic experiments and the new A-12 airplane. He was also sent to a new Marine air base primarily involved in radar operations for the Stategic Air Command just prior to leaving the service. He was at Atsugi, housed with the maintenance and repair crews in the same barracks. Meanwhile Harvey is in New Orleans and other places then those mentioned. Could Harvey have been trained in these matters during his AWOL year in New Orleans while he was said to be working at the Pfisterer (sp?) Dental lab?

An interesting item about Minsk and Belarus (Belorussia) from the Historic Diary: Jan. 11.I visit Minsk radio factory where I shall work. There I meet Argentinian Immigrant Alexander Ziger. Born a Polish Jew, immigrated to Argentinia in 1938 and back to Polish homeland (now part of Belorussia) in 1955, speaks English with American accent; he worked for American company in Argentinia. I think I tried to make this point earlier about the area of Belarus (Belorussia) once being a part of Poland. Belarus borders five countries: Latvia to the north, Lithuania to the northwest, Poland to the west, Russia to the north and the east, and Ukraine to the south. This may help explains Harvey's accent. For those who said Harvey's accent was Polish, could they say his accent was Polish from Belarus? (maybe or maybe not?) Marina didn't say his accent was Polish, but Baltic perhaps from Lithuania. St. Petersburg or Leningrad is not that far from Lithuania. Marina once lived in Leningrad and would she know the difference? Another thing of interest is this: Oswald was assigned to the Experimental Shop from the very beginning. I wonder what they experimented on? Radar equipment? Guidance systems?

30 references to Harvey Lee Oswald. Do these references have dates attached. And, if possible could you share those 30 incidents with folks. I just posted 7 references found in the Hardy and Lee.PDF. The rest would be nice to have. Good thinking and conclusions. Wasn't a person there described as appearing to be Robert Oswald? If so that would make it more likely or not for the other to be the real characters with maybe an imposter of so?

I haven't seen any military records for Harvey Lee Oswald, PFC at Santa Ana at 31 July 1959. So, I am assuming there is none. Santa Ana as a military address says Harvey, not Lee. And, Lee is discharged in March, 1959. This must be Harvey unless this is disinformation in the mole hunt of James J. These are the things found in Harvey and Lee concerning Harvey Lee Oswald. 1. Harvey Lee Oswald, PFC at Santa Ana at 31 July 1959 2. 8/9/63 Lt. Francis Martello interviewed “Harvey Lee Oswald” in a New Orleans jail. August 10, 1963- About 10:00 am Martello instructed the jailer to bring Harvey Lee Oswald to him for an interview. 3. (no date) During the Clay Shaw trial headed by Jim Garrison, CIA agent Donald P. Norton testified that Shaw gave him a suitcase full of cash to deliver to “Harvey Lee” in Monterrey, Mexico. (Which Monterrey is this? Is there more than one?) 4. John A. also reports that the name “Harvey Lee Oswald” appeared five times in the Spanish language version of Sylvia Duran’s statement, which was presented to the WC six months after her mistreatment/interrogation. (H&L p. 673) 5. Nov.-Dec., 1963 Lieutenant Revill listed his name as Harvey Lee Oswald and his address as 605 Elsbeth 6. After the DFS and CIA made additional changes to Duran's statements, a final10-page statement was prepared, signed, and submitted to the Warren Commission on May 18, 1964, six months after her interrogation. NOTE: It remains unknown whether the CIA or DF S prepared the 1 0-page statement. It is known that the name "Harvey Lee Oswald, as reported by Duran s friends, occurs five times in the Spanish language version. 7. After the FBI completed it's investigation in the late spring of 1964 the Mexican Police (DFS) needed to make changes to Silvia Duran's 10-page statement so that her statement did not conflict with other information about Oswald. The name "Harvey Lee Oswald" was changed to "Lee Harvey Oswald." Duran's description of Oswald as, "Blond, short, and poorly dressed," was removed. Except for one these records point to the time period of Jim Garrison's phrase "Sheep Dipping". I suppose the record of Harvey Lee Oswald at Santa Ana could have been changed at this time.

Ray, Good point and well made.

Does anyone know why the Russians were using the name Harvey Lee Oswald? They did so more than once so this is probably not an error.

IMO, the mole hunt in the CIA put the weasel in charge of the dreadful events that happened in the chicken coop. My favorite candidate for the mole is the good buddy and frequent lunch partner of Kim Philby, the notorious British traitor and spy. And, who might that be? Well, none other then James Jesus Angleton, head of CIA Counter Intelligence.

Thanks Steve, I have known the basic story of Oswald going to the Minsk factory, but not in the detail you supplied. Once again, Thanks. As far as I am concerned almost everything about the two Oswalds is funny business. Conflicts and controversy abounds. I once read that Oswald was the only American living in Minsk. Tourists came through Minsk, but none of the Americans stayed. Anything he could note about Minsk would be appreciated by intelligence services. He was assigned to work in a factory that made radio and tv components. So, what makes up a radar system? Radio and tv components. That's where my speculation is based about Oswald having something to do with shooting down Power's U2. Powers believed that was so. There is no other intelligence about what went on at that factory other than what Oswald said. Would he tell the truth or was he able to tell the truth due to his superiors? Would he tell on himself if he participated in shooting down an American U2? Would he even say anything if that was what he was sent to Russian to do? David Josephs has an excellent timeline on Harvey and Lee. I am using that to see where the two were at during their last years. In this scheme for a Lee sighting or incident to be valid Harvey has to be somewhere else verifiably. In the post above Hargrove points out one at the Bolton Ford, Inc. company in New Orleans on January 20, 1961. There's a lot of time between early Sept., 1959 when Harvey left the military and when he returned to the US in 1962, almost 3 years. Most of this time for Lee is unaccounted for and with just a few incidents that slipped under the wire. "I am using that to see where the two were at during their last years." Actually during Harvey's last years. I believe Lee Oswald live afterwards for a number of years. He couldn't be killed off after the assassination because his family members were part of the intelligence conspiracy. If he was killed then his family members may have come forward with the truth. The people who led and who were part of the Oswald Project were still around during the 1970s. They could not allow Lee Oswald to live and be discovered. By the time of the HSCA Lee Oswald may have become non-useful or excess. There is no proof for this or any proof at all that Lee survived past the assassination. Lee Oswald vanishes into the smoke and mirrors of the CIA.