John Butler

I'm sure that's the case as far as government folks (Warren Commission, FBI, and others) were concerned. She could be easily portrayed as a fantasist due to her background as a Fortean Society member, head of a UFO club, and someone who describes people in a lurid, fantastical manner. Whether what I wrote here is true or not doesn't matter. Perception is the key. She could be perceived that way by those in charge so that her information could be ignored or discredited. I have a great deal of respect for the writings of William Weston. However, the testimony of Laura Kittrell raised a number of flags I need to think about. I have no doubt that Kittrell interviewed two different Oswalds. Her statements have led me to believe she interviewed both Harvey and Lee. Mentioned are details peculiar to each. Unless the two, Harvey and Lee, had memorized details about each other in great detail. I'm assuming they would know general details of each other's background, but not specific details of what they were doing when separated for a lengthy period of time. Oswald doubles such as the Crawford fellow mentioned would not know the specific details of either Harvey or Lee's background. OBTW, the kind of information given by the Oswald person at these interviews is detailed and sufficient enough to make sure that incidents from Oswald's life would be remembered. I would guess such information could be supplied to a double as a script. The violent behavior by the Oswald person (I am assuming Lee) would guarantee that incident would be remembered. Her description of Marina Oswald's personal appearance I don't find creditable. This leads me to believe that the pregnant women there could have been a double also. Nowhere will you find a photo showing Marina Oswald dressing in such a fashion. Her ability to determine if someone was a killer, much less a serial killer, I find questionable. She makes it difficult to not see her as an intelligent, hard working lady, bored with the mechanics of employment interviewing and over the years believing she had the skill to analyze a person's personality and character in a short period of time. If people could do that then the career of a serial killer would not be lengthy. These were the two big things that caught my attention the most. Outside of several reservations, I think she correctly identified two Oswalds. These two Oswalds I believe to be Harvey and Lee based on the details that each related at their separate interviews. PS I thought it very interesting that the Oswald (I assume was Harvey) talking about working in an electronics factory in MInsk where he assembled electronic parts and little pieces of metal. It's as if he caught himself and did not want to speak about what he actually was assembling. Could it have been radar equipment sufficient to easily track a U2? Could it be part of a guidance system that could shoot down a U2?

It's been a long time since I have studied Man, Myth, and Magic and UFOs and such. But, I do remember a few things about Charles Fort and the Fortean Society. They tinkered with and discussed things that are farther out then even I am willing to go. To the point: Is this discussion of Fort and things Fortean an attempt to discredit Laura Kittrell through the Fortean Society beliefs? Is this an attempt to discredit her vis a vis the information she provided on the Oswald doubles. PS When I was a kid I enjoyed the writings of A. Merritt.

That's a large pen cap for such a narrow pen. If you look close you can see the cavity the central incisor came out of in that photo. That is as likely as a claim as large pen cap being seen there. There is other photo evidence showing Lee Oswald had a missing tooth. Altogether the evidence presented by Larsen is convincing evidence and would probably stand up in court. The one thing that bothers me about Harvey's teeth is the evidence for molars coming in later in the life of Harvey Oswald which explains the missing molars in the Marine dental records. That is a sensible point, but it can't be proven either. Molar formation and appearance is variable during the teenage years. You will see various estimates from when they appear. If you take the late variation then the records can match as done in 1981. I don't find that convincing due to what I read (if memory serves) of molar appearance is variable from 12 to 26 years. Just as an example, I had all four 3rd molars at 19 years old when I went into the US Army.

He said flitting hee hee ha hu hee he said flitting ha ha hee huh hee. An absolutely fitting word for some of Marina's activities as described in her life as a "honey pot" before she met Harvey. And, it is suggested by others this behavior didn't stop after the Russian Princess married. I think Jim has mentioned something important about Boris and Natasha. Did they know each other were double agents and triple agents? Did they cover for each other on language abilities.

That was said very well. I agree. Harvey Oswald had a Russian background of some kind. A short time back we did a lot of research into the possible Hungarian background of Harvey Oswald. Basically, we improved the knowledge concerning the FBI Tippit document and the folks mentioned in it. But, we were not able to firmly establish or disprove a Hungarian background for Harvey. Even though the evidence is pointing towards a Russian language background for Harvey we need to retain the notion that some how or another he might have a Hungarian background and was brought to this country during or after WWII. This connects to Harvey and Lee and remains a viable notion. This bit of info from the internet might be appropriate: How many languages are spoken in Hungary? What Languages Are Spoken In Hungary? Rank Language Number of speakers (2011) 1 Hungarian 9,896,333 (99.6%) 2 English 1,589,180 (16.0%) 3 German 1,111,997 (11.2%) 4 Russian 158,497 (1.6%) Russian is spoken by a small minority of people. It's possible that Harvey came from a family speaking both. It is something that can't be ruled out at this time. If that is so we are connected back to the Tippit phone call doc.

Thanks David, That does sound like an ambush that is more realistic then just shots from the TSBD by a lone nut. 3 directions? Back, front left and front right? Shots from the County Records building, perhaps the TSBD or Dal-Tex. From the west meaning the Grassing Knoll or Railroad Underpass. And from the other Grassy Knoll which I think is the east. These are the three best spots and directions. Others can be added, but I feel that they are of lesser weight. From the rear I lead with the County Record building because of Elsie Dorman, Junior Jarman, and a 30.06 case found years later on top of the building. That seems more substantial then other witnesses who said there was shooting from the TSBD and others who said there was no shooting from the TSBD. According to the statements of the witnesses in the TSBD that were the closest to the Sniper's Nest there would be a great deal of difficulty proving anyone shot from the Sniper's Nest.

Steve, There's a great deal of variation when it comes to learning a different language. I don't have the ability except for retaining cursive language. What popped into my mind was Sir Richard Francis Burton the author of the Arabian nights, The Book of the Thousand Nights. He was an Arabophile, if their is such a word, a man who loved everything connect to the Arab people. It is said he learned fluent Arabic with a time of about 2 weeks. He could speak Arabic fluently. Enough to fool Arabs and visit the sacred city of Mecca and the Kaaba (Ka'bah) which was strictly forbidden to non-believers and infidels.

I don't disagree with that. The Chenault and Chennault family may very well be related. They may believe that this is so based on something we don't know at this point. And, it could be if some evidence such as a family bible, family letters, birth records, death records, or other records are looked at. As it stands there is no basis for a 1st cousin or 2nd cousin relationship. This is a common problem in genealogy. I have it in my own family. I was always told as a youngster that a group of Butlers that lived in the western part of the county I grew up in were not related to my group. However, during research in my family history from 1985 to 1999 I found enough evidence to suggest a relationship, but not enough to openly say it. So, we remain unrelated. Many families want to contain things they don't want known. So, families split and one claims they are not related to the other. That gets passed down through the generations. In the case of the Chenaults and Chennaults there may be something like that (just speculating) that cause the generations in each family to know that there was a family relationship between the two families. Claire Chennault thought it may be so that they were related and he attended that family reunion. If they believe there was a relationship then its enough to say there was a relationship there that they believed to be true.

The Chenaults may indeed be cousins with the Chennaults, but to find and prove that in US Census records you will need to go back further then 1895. And, at least the 1850 Census in the Chenault and Chennault families. Census Records are considered one of the standards of genealogy research. Generally, Census records are considered to reliable and true unless falsified by other Census records contradicting earlier ones, or other records such as birth, death, marriage, and Social Security records which build a case contradicting evidence found in Census records. Earlier the lineage of Mildred Chenault was listed to the 4th generation to her great-grandfather Robert T. Chenault: born abt 1830 – died before 1870 census. The Chenault family spelled their family name that way as early as about 1830 with Robert T.'s birth. If you look at the listed genealogy records of 4 generations of Chenaults and Chennaults there are no family connections up to the 1850 Census. Things become murkier in the 1840 and earlier census due to not listing children. Claire "Flying Tiger" Chennault may have believed he was related to William Chenault just as William believed. But, at this point neither could prove that to a genealogist by evidence from 4 generations in the US Census. You would have to look past 1830 with Robert Chenault or provide other evidence. Other evidence would need to be presented. This is mentioned earlier by others, but I see no evidence supporting the contentions that they were cousins other than family statements and newspaper articles.

Didn't Dino say 8 shots? I was sort thrown off by that.

Let's see. Connally is hit by two bullets and JFK was shot in the head how many times? Two or three? Then one in the back or throat? The reason I ask is that the bullet count is going way up beyond 3 with one missing the vehicle. That's coming closer to Jean Hill's 4 to 6 shots.

As far as Harvey Oswald’s ability to speak and write in Russian the following information from the internet may be helpful. "In English sentences, word order is very specific. The subject always comes before the verb. To make sentences more descriptive and complex, we add adjectives, adverbs, and indirect objects. In the next three sections, you will learn word order with adjectives, adverbs, and indirect objects." Russian like English is a Indo-European language related to Germanic languages through Swedish Vikings and other Germanic people of the Baltic Sea area. But, the Russian language is classified as a Slavic Language (still Indo-European). Word order or sentence structure in Russian is the same as in English and in the Slavic Language. "The neutral word order in Slavic languages is Subject-Verb-Object. However, other orders are also possible since inflectional endings make clear grammatical relations and roles of words in the sentence." However, Hungarian is not a Indo-European language or Slavic language. It is more closely related to the Finno-Ugaric language group, a Uralic Language. It’s source is Asian language groups rather than European language groups. "Word order I May 11, 2013 Hungarian language is much more flexible in the sense of word order than the Indo-European languages, especially English. The reason is the suffixes; while in English the location of a word in a sentence determines its word class (part of speech), in Hungarian the suffixes determine it. In English the word play can be subject, object or verb without any suffixes: subject: The play starts at 5 o’lock in the National Theater. object: The director presents the play. verb: We play soccer every Friday. In Hungarian the noun játék (game, play) is put to Accusative case (játékot) if its role in the sentence is object, and changes to játszik, if it’s a verb (to play). For this reason it doesn’t have that big importance which order we put the words inside a sentence. However this flexibility doesn’t mean that it doesn’t matter at all how we order the words; there are always orders which “sound well”, which is used by native people in converstions, while there are other orders which sound not that well, or sound well only in some situations when we want to emphasize a word, and also there are orders which sound very very weird. In Hungarian we can emphasize words or imply different things by changing the word order (bringing the word to be emphasized earlier in the sentence)." This information from the internet may suggest from Harvey Oswald’s use of language is that the was a Russian speaking immigrant from Northern Europe as suggested by many who claimed Oswald was fluent in Russian and not Hungarian as thought due to the Tippit FBI document. Hungarian would be more difficult for switching from Hungarian to English then switching from Russian to English. Oswald could have been from Belarus or a Russian speaking area of Poland in those years the Germans occupied that territory during WWII. From Dr. Norwood, “Peter Gregory, a native of Chita, Siberia, told the Warren Commission that “I thought that Lee Oswald spoke [Russian] with a Polish accent, that is why I asked him if he was of Polish descent….It would be rather unusual…for a person who lived in the Soviet Union for 17 months that he would speak so well that a native Russian would not be sure whether he was born in that country or not.” [8]” Marina Oswald thought Harvey had a Polish or Baltic accent. These areas sent immigrant children to Switzerland beginning in 1942 and some of these children eventually arrived in the US in 1942 and after. "Belarus means 'White Russia', a name derived from the fact that this is the one part of Rus that, although conquered by the Mongols in 1240, was never settled by them. The term 'white' refers therefore to the purity of the people, who, unlike their Muscovite cousins, never intermarried with the Mongols." This could be why Harvey Oswald, an apparent Marxist/Communist (the enemy) was accepted by the White Russian community in Dallas." Wouldn’t that be something if Harvey Oswald, a Belarusian immigrant child, later goes back to Belarus (Minsk) as an adult spy for the US government. Lot’s of speculation here. If that speculation is so then Harvey, an assumed immigrant child, would have left his Russian speaking background early on and would have to be raised by a Russian speaking family in order to retain his Russian speaking abilities while acquiring English speaking abilities. On the other hand, if Harvey arrived as an immigrant child after WWII, say in 1945 to 1947, then he would have great difficulty adapting to English and the US and may account for Harvey's reserved character. This is not evident anywhere in the record that Harvey had language problems while in school or as a young child. There is only some comment that Harvey had a northern accent while being in New Orleans.

This photo has the contrast adjusted to enhance the blacks and whites: With the contrast adjusted it appears to look more like Zapruder frames Z313-316. But, since the Polaroid is so vague it could be anything. There are other spots like that elsewhere in the photo. Kennedy's shoulder does look unnatural and not like the rounded shoulder pad of a suit. There appears to be a pointed, upper section indicating there may be something there. But, once again the overall Polaroid is simply to vague to make out anything in great detail. If you blow this up you can see that Kennedy's head looks as if something is missing there and it could be whatever is distorting the right shoulder. PS It's awful easy to see things in vague, distorted photos. Look at the driver's side rear wheel. The one that shows a half white wall with the upper part in shadow. If you're not careful you will see a woman with a large straw hat framed in that tire. Once you see something like that it is hard to get it out of your mind and you simply keep seeing it.

I don't think this is of any real importance. But, is based on earlier work looking at Marina's shoes in the Minsk bridge photo and trying to decide if she was in heels or flats. After looking at a lot of other photos, I determined she wore basically two types, heels and flats with pointed toes. Although she does not appear to be wearing the most expensive clothes, Marina seems to dress as folks did in the 60s and not as what would be described as Seventh Day Adventist drab. In fact she seems to dress somewhat better than one would expect relying on her husband's known income. This description does not seem to fit Marina, particularly the shoes. As far as shoes go there is no photos that I know of that shows Marina wearing "round-toed, flat, oxfords, just like children wear." As an example of the type of shoes Marina wore:

William R. Chenault newspaper article on death: And, U.S. Census Records do not support either of the two newspaper articles as outlined earlier. I can only conclude this family connection was something that the Chenault family thought was true in their relationship to the Chennault family, in particular Claire L. Chennault. The only record I could find for a Claire Chenault is a ship record: This is assumed to be Claire L. Chennault based on similar id characteristics.

2nd cousin to the General? Can the Dallas Morning News article be published or linked to? I've worked to much on Margaret Oswald. I have inadvertently created this mess by absent mindedly typing Margaret for Mildred several times in this discussion. That has been corrected in earlier posts. Sorry for that. Is it Claire Chenault or Claire Chennault as stated earlier?

Chenault or Chennault? They are different families. Roy Truly married Mildred Chenault. Not Chennault. If he was related to the Chenault family is some other ways was not the question. The question was are William Robert Chenault and Claire Lee Chenault 1st cousins as claimed in the newspaper article in the Find A Grave source? There is no US Census info to back this up. I don't know anything about Truly and Korths. That was not Jim's question. William Robert Chenault and Claire Lee Chenault are not related by Census family records. For William Robert Chenault to be a first cousin of Gen. Claire Chennault the general’s father would have to be a brother to George Hunter Chenault. General Chennault’s father was John Stonewall Jackson Chennault. George Robert Chenault had one sister named Tennessee and 4 brothers: William A., Jephtha H., Robert McClain, and John L. The siblings of John Stonewall Jackson Chennault were: Demaras E. (b 1856), Christopher Columbus (1856 – 1862), Laura Melissa (1868 – 1934), Joanna (1860 - ), Stephen Nelson Jr. (1867 – 1946) and George (bn 1870, he was 3 months old in 1870 census) George Chennault, born in 1870, and was 3 months old in that year. This is probably where the Find A Grave researcher went wrong George Hunter Chenault: born 10/9/1854 – died 10/14/1936 These are not the same people.

It's patrilineal. Dad's dad etc. except in the case of Margaret Chenault who begins her lineage line. The fourth generation, Stephen Nelson Chennault Sr., is her great-grandfather. In the other, Claire Lee Chenault's, 4th generation is Christopher Chennault, Claire's great-grandfather. As you can see there is no 1st cousin relationship or connection through 4 generations. About the only thing connecting these two families is that both are from Tennessee. But, could find no family relationship there. Standards of proof in genealogy are the same as in a court. You have 3 standards on which evidence is judged. 1st, there is the judgement of Preponderance of the Evidence, which means greater then 50% evidence up to about 90%. The 2nd is Clear and Convincing, here I think confidence is judged greater then 90%. And, the last is Beyond A Reasonable Doubt which has a confidence level of greater then 95%. (I'm not really sure these are confidence levels are 100% accurate, but are reasonably so. Things change from time to time) This type of genealogy work would be judged at least Clear and Convincing, perhaps, higher based on Census evidence.

There appears to be no relationship between the two families. Often in genealogy research people go looking for famous ancestors. And, guess what? They find them. So, this makes research difficult at times. Mildred Chenault Truly Lineage: Generation 1: Mildred W. Chenault Truly: born 2/21/1910 – died 4/9/1996 Daughter of William Robert “Willie” Chenault Generation 2: William Robert “Willie” Chenault: born 10/4/1881 – died 2/12/1960 Son of George Hunter Chenault Generation 3: George Hunter Chenault: born 10/9/1854 – died 10/14/1936 Son of Robert T. Chenault Generation 4: Robert T. Chenault: born abt 1830 – died before 1870 census For William Robert Chenault to be a first cousin of Gen. Claire Chennault the general’s father would have to be a brother to George Hunter Chenault. General Chennault’s father was John Stonewall Jackson Chennault. George Robert Chenault had one sister named Tennessee and 4 brothers: William A., Jephtha H., Robert McClain, and John L. There was no John Stonewall Jackson Chennault listed. Claire Chennault Lineage: Generation 1: Claire Lee Chennault: born 1893 Commerce, TX – Died 7/27/1958 New Orleans Son of John Stonewall Jackson Chennault Generation 2: John Stonewall Jackson Chennault: born 6/2/1862 Rayville, LA – died 8/8/1942 Gilbert, LA Son of Stephen Nelson Chennault Sr. Generation 3: Stephen Nelson Chennault Sr.: born 2/17/1814 Nashville, TN – died 4/21/1871 Rayville, LA Son of Christopher Chennault Generation 4: Christopher Chennault (Reformed Abolitionist): born 1760 Essex, Va – died 2/5/1823 Bardstown, KY The siblings of John Stonewall Jackson Chennault were: Demaras E. (b 1856), Christopher Columbus (1856 – 1862), Laura Melissa (1868 – 1934), Joanna (1860 - ), Stephen Nelson Jr. (1867 – 1946) and George (bn 1870, he was 3 months old in 1870 census) George Chennault, born in 1870, and was 3 months old in that year. This is probably where the Find A Grave researcher went wrong. The family research tree where this information comes from indicates that this George Chennault died young. There is no further information past 1880. Generation 3: George Hunter Chenault: born 10/9/1854 – died 10/14/1936 Son of Robert T. Chenault The 1870 Census has George Hunter Chenault as 14 years old. And, again this is probably where the Find A Grave info is wrong.

Laying a trail sounds like the kind of thing crooked cops would do. Dallas PD have a strong rep for doing such as was exposed in later times.

Jim H, Just as a matter of curiousity, is this important in some context (such as CIA connections) to the events of Dealey Plaza, Roy Truly, and other characters? What am I missing? Is it the notation that Margaret Chenault Truly was 1st cousin to "Flying Tigers" Chennault? At first glance this appears not to be true as far back as 1850. No connection to the families that can be seen at this point. Stay tuned for more in depth research.

No idea. Jr. G-Man serves as well as any ID until someone comes forward with a better ID.

Back to David's beginning post. I have always seen this as Bill Shelly regardless of those who say his ears are to big. This is a more important photo then most realize. I call it the 3 patsy photo. Oswald became the Patsy. Shelly was arrested for the assassination, but is claimed later this was not so. At the time Chauncy Holt was sitting in a train car loaded with explosives sweating over the notion he might be blown up and used as the perpetrator. I man I have listed as Kerry Thornley has always interested me. I've switched between Lee Oswald, Kerry Thornley, and an unknown in identifying this person. Jim Garrison reports provided by Bart Kamp have helped. This may be Kerry Thornley. This New Orleans film has been altered. It has been altered to show the official story people and not the actual people involved. I don't believe that is Harvey Oswald. It is Lee Oswald with a Harvey face mask. I think Lee Oswald and Kerry Thornley? are the people shown here and involved in the pamphlet handouts. I realize this is not a popular idea or accepted by many folks. But, it is the way I look at this. And, from this latest find in written evidence I may be getting closer to validating my ideas. It is not much to base a Lee Oswald identification on, but a lack of unattached earlobes it's part of the identification characteristics of Lee Oswald. Then there is the issue of the Harvey face mask which some people don't see. Lee has a bigger head than Harvey and can be seen in this photo crop.

Another questionable thing about this photo is that people from Evansville, Indiana were sent to California for basic training. The Marine Corps had two training centers. One at Paris Island, SC, which handled trainees from the east part of the US, namely east of the Mississippi River. The other was in San Diego, CA, which trained people from the western part of the US, namely west of the Mississippi River. I have written of this before. I helps explains some of the anomalies of the two Oswalds. If Lee joined the Marines at age 16 (illegally) in New Orleans he would have been sent to Paris Island to do basic training. There is some evidence for Lee Oswald to be in South Carolina at Paris Island in the summer of 1956. This would help keep their military records separate. Harvey, just turned 17, would enlist in the Marines in Ft. Worth and be assigned to the training center in San Diego.

This yearbook photo was also there with the photo. Supposedly there were 6 men from Indiana who went through basic with Oswald. the whole thing may be a fraud based on the original photo: These do not appear to be Marines from 1956. Their uniform and boots appear to be from the early to mid-1960s. The only 1950ish thing I see in this photo in the wooden stock from the M1 Garand which was not totally phased out in the Marines in favor of the M14 rifle until about 1965. Someone has forged evidence claiming association with Oswald. Here is a more realistic photo of Marines of the Mid-1950s. You can also check what is being said here by reviewing Oswald's 201 file photos on board ship enroute to Japan. What is phony is the bloused boots. This was something the US Army did and not the Marines. The US Army did not adopt shiny, calf length, black boots until 1957. Prior to that Army boots were brown. The marines did not adopt shiny, calf length, black boots until much later than 1956. If you will, notice the brown ankle sized boots of that period. These were easier to get off in case your ship was sunk and you had to go into the water. Most Marine transportation in those days was done by Naval transport. Marines on Bexar ship: Notice unbloused boots. I was told by Navy people that the reason for Navy bell bottom trousers and Marines not blousing their boots had to do with jumping into water. Air would supposedly enter their trouser legs and that would make them float better or longer. I don't know whether that's true or not, but that was what I was told by Navy personnel.