John Butler

Just sent another note to Russ Geck. I hope he responds. If not I am going to assume that the information provided by him has not been verified. There are too many things in the Gardos story and the story in Hungary that makes one suspicious of what is known.

Thanks John K, I'm still waiting. If I hear nothing in the next several days it might be time to reassess things.

Paul, You may very well be right. Russ Geck began a genealogy request in 2012 which was answered by several members of the Blair family and then nothing else after that. One of the responses said that the Blair family lost contact with Grace sometime during the 1960s and had not heard anything from her in 50 years. They were glad to hear from him and suggested familysearch.org as a place to do genealogy. If Russ Geck does not answer the last linked-in message then I don't know what that would mean. I certainly hope Russ replies. I have no intentions other than the truth. But, think about that for a moment. Out of the blue some guy says your wife's grandfather may be the most infamous assassin in American History. Wouldn't that set you back a bit. Paul, I agree with your points 100%. We'll have to wait and see. Maybe Russ will help us out. I think I sent him enough information to do some internet research on what we have been doing. It may take him a while to wade through all of the info we have been accumulating over the years. Particularly, if he is coming to this situation cold. I'll keep you informed. It is a little to early to speculate lacking information. I did ask Russ Geck to provide more information and gave him a valid reason why it was needed.

Paul, From what I read in Russ Geck's reply he seemed an honest, straight forward, and direct guy. I don't think I was too direct, but recognize I may have been. My point was to say folks on the forum generally demand more proof then what someone says. And, if he would then he could supply more info. Recognizing at the same time if he didn't then that was fine also. Before I go any further, I'll wait for a response from him.

Steve, I typed in FBI cryptonyms and found information on CG 5824-S*. This was an FBI informant name Morris Childs. He and his brother, Jack, were communists. They were the top double agent spies for the FBI for a long period of time. Morris Childs was such a good communist the communists gave him awards. He also a good double agent for the FBI they gave him awards.

I have a bit of news to report. I have been in contact with Russ Geck through linked-in.com. This is the extent of our communications to this point. It seems that John Gardos did go with Emil and Grace to Hungary in 1950. My response was : I am waiting for a response from Russ Geck. There's a typo on the date of the call. Please excuse.

Does anyone know what these informant names refer to: SI 131-S CG 5824-S or CG 5324-S

If someone wants to compare these two lines then they can. And, do the math on newspaper length to rifle length. The newspaper is folded in an odd manner so the line may be a little off.

Thanks John K, Glad to help. David Josephs wasn't on line during that time and I thought I would answer that for him. I didn't think he would care.

Right on, David The FBI had been monitoring Emil Gardos since the 1920s by the New York FBI. My theory, which is not supported by much fact, is that sometime during the 1920s Gardos was turned by the FBI as a confidential informant. In the FBI report on Grace Gardos indicating she may want to return to the US. There is info on Emil who is living in Budapest on pension. Where did the pension come from? Communist Party or work history in the US. Mostly in the, US Gardos was an unemployed communist organizer. Stephen Gaal has provided this info years ago from an FBI report: "EMIL KARDOS was born 22 October 1905, received Social Security number 090-07-2878 (indicating New York) and, Death Master File says, died February 1981." This was in FBI information may not be correct or it is something that was arranged to hide Emil Gardos' Social Security account. Emil Gardos was born in 1901 not in 1905. If you recall Oswald's $200 check he cashed were actually something like 187 dollars indicating money with held. I can not find the above Social Security reference in ancestry.com. It should be easily found. This indicates it may not be available to be found. Perhaps, Jim Hargrove could see if he can find this reference. He has a good alternative genealogy source.

Bart, What's your opinion of the changes I made? I haven't determined to place McCully. If I had to I would put her in the TSBD fourth in her office but, don't recall who she worked for. The blacked out windows indicate there were more people on the upper floors watching what was going on and we will probably never know who they were. Just below the red arrow pointing to where I think Adams, etc are is another window that I originally thought was the office supply room that Yola Hopson and Ruth Nelson were. The second and 3rd floor windows always looked like the best place to shoot from. Better than the sixth floor.

So, can we safely say that the first appearance of Harvey Oswald is the summer and fall of 1947? OBTW, 1947 was a good year with the appearance of the Roswell babies. Ha, Ha.... FBI Belief in the Credibility of the Mrs. Tippit Call “BUREAU REQUESTED TO COORDINATE ABOVE WITH ANY OTHER INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF PERTINENT AS NEW HAVEN HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESIDENCE AND ASSOCIATES OF OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE.” Does this last statement of the FBI document mean that the FBI believed that Oswald’s father and uncle were Hungarian communists? Or, is just a general statement on Oswald’s father and uncle? If taken at face value then the answer is yes. The Bureau (the leadership in Washington) is asking for information from Dallas and New York to see if they had “pertinent” information on this matter. It sounds like the leadership in Washington believes this information. And, are checking what else is known. If nothing the matter could be safely buried. Which, the FBI promptly did.

The Accent of the Mysterious Woman “MRS. TIPPIT THOUGHT THE WOMAN HAD AN AUSTRIAN OR GERMAN ACCENT WHILE MR. TIPPIT BELIEVED IT WAS SPANISH.” One can go to Google to translate something from one language to another. You can also hear what that language sounds like. English and German are Germanic languages and have a similar sound. You can also relate Russian to Germanic languages through the Rus, or Swedish settlers in Russian in the Kiev area about 1,000 years ago. None of the languages mentioned above, in my opinion, sound like Hungarian. Hungarian or Magyar is a language whose origins come from Western Siberia and are related to the Finno-Ugric language family. Surprisingly, Spanish, a Romance language related to Germanic languages, does sound like Hungarian. The words in one language are totally different as versus the other. But, the sounds of the language can be mistaken. Perhaps, Mrs. Tippit was mistaken when thinking of European languages and Mr. Tippit caught the true sound. OK, we can assume that, but this does not explain or help explain how Harvey Oswald was fluent in Russian. Prior to WWI the Austro-Hungarian Empire was made up of Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, and about half of Romania. Emil Gardos was a Romanian and Hungarian. He was born or lived in Constanta, Romania. Later he acquired Hungarian citizenship. The area pointed to had at that time many Russian, Hungarian, other minorities, and Romanian people. Romanian is a Romance language related to Latin. Many people of Hungarian spoke several languages due to the mix of various ethnic groups. Emil Gardos more than like spoke Hungarian, Russian, and Romanian. If one can relate John Gardos to Harvey Oswald then this may be the source of his Russian fluency. This may be something he was intentionally taught as a child. In order for this to be believable, one has to firmly connect the two. Some of the things in the Tippit Call are turning out to be reliable. Perhaps, with time other things will too.

John K, David Josephs has answered this question earlier in a comment. "I've spoke to John about this... he also has no idea who Nancy Lee or who this ANN person is/was...." It would be interesting to know more about Nancy Lee Oswald. Lee suggests some close connection to the Oswald family.

Thanks David, I'm not familiar with the Walcott material. Fred Korth was Secretary of the Navy in 1962 and 1963. I thought John Connally was the one who rejected Oswald's plea for a dismissal of his dishonorable discharge. I don't see how this relates. Perhaps, you can explain further. You made a couple of good points here: "She may have been "from NY" but that doesn't actually mean she was living in NY at the time... It was Mrs. Tippit who suggested the newspaper article connection, not the caller.... Option 1: This is a set-up; the woman is given the number to call and a script to follow to create an even greater connection between Oswald and Communists Option 2: This is a complete crank (if so the FBI would have included it with the other batch of crank letters they published in the WCR) Option 3: It's legit and somehow this woman learns not only of JACK TIPPIT of CT but gets the phone number and comes "here" to make a local call." I like Option 3. It requires less assumptions then Option 1. I want to add to your 2 points this. The mysterious caller may not have been an elderly or a mature woman. A person's age and voice on the phone is sometimes different then what we think. A younger person may sound older and an older person may sound younger. I base this on listening to C-Span and other call in shows. At times the caller would sound, lets say older, but the age once given was of a younger person and so on. I based the earlier statement on John Pic not being able to recognize a high school photo of Lee Oswald as Lee Oswald. As far as the Bronx Zoo photo, many respected people say that is Harvey Oswald. My mind and facial recognition skills just won't go there. The only resemblance I see to Harvey is that both have earlobes. Sorry, I have to stick with what I see.

David, There is a lot of times I think the whole family is on the Oswald Project.

That is a good summary. I go for option 3. The FBI thought this call was valid and credible enough to classify as Top Secret and not to be declassified. Would they do that for a crank call? They would do this for Options 1 and 3. Since there is no mention of a counter-intelligence operation I go with Option 3. "From the same comment "Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?Mr. PIC - No, sir.Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald?Mr. PIC - No, sir." Who then would John Pic recognize as his brother Lee Harvey Oswald? Harvey Oswald? If he does then John Pic is dead in the middle of the Oswald Project conspiracy. It is my contention that Lee Harvey Oswald (the original) is edited out of most photos. The Civil Air Patrol photo and the high school class photo are examples of Lee Oswald that had not been edited out. Both of these photos the Oswald figure has missing front teeth and must be Lee Oswald. If John Pic is not recognizing these photos as Lee Oswald then who is Lee Oswald and where can we find a picture of him? I don't know who the kid at the Bronx Zoo is. If I had to guess he would be a version of the original Lee Oswald and not Harvey. I take the Oswald in the CAP photo to be Lee Harvey Oswald: And, Lee in this classroom photo: And, If these aren't Lee then show me a photo of a young high school age Lee.

In the same comment David posted this, "Anyway... you will see that in 1947-48 Marguerite OSWALD has both HARVEY OSWALD age 8 and NANCY LEE OSWALD age 7 living at 1505 8th (going to Lily B Clayton) in 1948-49 we now have MARGUERTE EKDAHL as parent/guardian, HARVEY OSWALD with his July 9th birthday supposedly to allow him to enter school early since Sept 1 was the cutoff... and a line thru NANCY LEE OSWALD with MARGUERTE EKDAHL and a 10/19/39 birthdate... https://drive.google.com/open?id=17K-_v16OhQklf6exfqbq0qBwK5jQ1ajb https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JUZ7ogZc6ipPe73N6dCjvZlTLPBZJ4lh is for the 49-50 school year.... ROBERT OSWALD is both parent/guardian and student (10th grade) 4/7/34 bday HARVEY OSWALD with MARGUERTE EKDAHL and 10-19-39 bday The next line: TED L OSWALT with a 4/6/34 bday seems out of place.... what happens to NANCY LEE?" In all of the things I have read about the Oswalds, Nancy Lee Oswald age 7, living with Marguerite and Harvey has got to be the strangest. This is out of the blue and has to be something new and unknown. Who could Nancy Lee Oswald be? Another Hungarian that Margaret was tending? A relative of the Oswalds? Could it be a mistake. In English and German the same sound is represented at a D or a T. T in German and D in English has about the same sound. Texas at one time had a large German population. Could a Nancy Lee Oswald be a Nance Lee Oswalt? That's a bit thin also. Because of the middle name Lee she could be a relative and that is more realistic than the other. This girl is associated with both Marguerites Ekdhal and Oswald. A relative could be a good guess.

David Josephs said, "The newspaper was founded in 1871.[1][2] It was published under the title The Evening Hour from 1895 into the 1900s, at which point it was renamed The Norwalk Hour. Some time after 1971, it became simply The Hour.[3][4] The newspaper covers local news, business, sports, and entertainment,[2] and as of April 2003, had a circulation of 16,070 I have a tough time seeing how a woman in NYC would be aware of a tiny local paper's report... and I doubt the NYTimes would mention every TIPPIT in the NE due to an occurrence in TX. https://06880danwoog.com/2013/11/24/j-d-tippit-and-jack/ is a link to an article mentioning and showing the CT Jack Tippit (sadly it's a Dale Nyers article where he attributes things to JA which he never did) Her being "from" NYC doesn't mean she was "in" NYC at the time she came "here"... to Westport, Ct where the Tippit's lived. How else would this woman know about the CT Jack Tippit unless she was in the Norwalk/Westport area to read this paper?" A couple of comments here on the Norwalk Hour. April 2003, the Norwalk Hour had a circulation of 16,070. In the 1920s and 1930s it could have had a larger circulation since most people obtained their news from a newspaper. Norwalk, Conn is directly south of Wesport, Conn and fairly close to it. Westport is about 45 miles from Yorkville, NYC. Middletown, Conn is about 100 miles from Yorkville, NYC. The FBI offices in New Haven are in-between Westport and Middletown. The Tippits, who have been very familiar with the Norwalk Hour since Jack, the cartoonist, probably would have sold cartoons to that Newspaper. David's right. One finds it hard to think that the average New Yorker would be keeping up with what's going on in the Norwalk Hour in Conn. It's best to presume that someone from that area would be familiar with the paper either as a resident or someone passing through. However, there is a third option. Someone who lived in the Connecticut area of Norwalk or at least it's circulation area read the Norwalk Hour and liked the paper. They continued to read that paper after they moved to New York in later years. I mentioned the distance between Wesport and Middletown, Conn as about 50 miles. This is thin and can be considered a long shot. The Fuhrman's lived in Middletown, Conn from 1925 to 1932. Four children were born in Connecticut. They may have developed relationships that they wanted to keep track off. I mention this as a possibility. But, the possible connection should be put out there for consideration. Report post

Paul, The information I have been able to collect is that during the relevant time the Gardos: 1. Were in Ironwood, MI in the late 1930s and appear in the US Census there in 1940. 2. Emil Gardos and Grace Blair were married in New York City in 1936. 3 Emil was helping Brother Fred with communist matters in Milwaukee about 1932-34. There he met Grace, Fred's sister. There was an age difference of 10 years. Grace would have been 25 when they married. 4. Grace was in New York in 1942 at the address 514 East 83rd Street. She is also mentioned in a government report for that year. All of the addresses in this case appear to be in Little Hungary or Yorkville. 5. Grace in 1943 is at the more familiar address of 217 East 86th Street. So, from 1942 until 1947 someone could have known John Gardos up to about his 8th year. If he was living with his mother it is doubtful he would be called Oswald unless the game was already afoot and plans for the Oswald Project were in motion. And, someone might have known of this situation in later times say 1952-53 and made a connection between the two when the phony Lee Harvey Oswald showed up in New York. Recognition between an 8 year old and a supposedly undersized Harvey at 13 years may have been easier. Or, this knowledge may suggest the relationship of the mysterious caller lingers on until the assassination. This suggests an even closer relationship. This again points to the Fuhrmans and I have absolutely no evidence other than speculation to say so. Unfortunately, I keep coming back to this. Because of language differences the mysterious caller could be Hungarian.

Paul, "We should keep trying to find the school records, but I am not optimistic that any such records (from schools that were torn down decades ago) still exist. But I bet the FBI's "Red" files from the 1940's might yet prove very useful." I researched this yesterday and found that the records of a school remain at that school and are not sent to a central location such as the New York City Department of Education. If the school is closed then the records go to the next school that serves that area. And, if I am not mistaken I believe I read the records are kept for 25 years. If this is true then a records research won't work. The 25 year limit needs to be rechecked. It is possible one may find seized records with the FBI. Paul said, "But this is irrelevant to our focus on Gardos and the mysterious woman caller. Remember, the mysterious women caller specifically linked "Oswald" with Gardos, his brother-in-law (who could only have been Fred Blair) and/or Louis Weinstock. Gardos had "voluntarily" deported to Hungary by 1950 at the latest, so the exploits of the various "Oswald's" and "Marguerite's" in 1952/53 could not have been connected. No, the mysterious woman caller was focusing on events from the 1940's (although she wrongly believed they happened in the 1950's, a common mistake as people age - time speeds up for all of us.) I argued earlier that the mysterious woman caller must have known the boy from Yorkville by name - it would have been impossible for her in 1963 to recognize "Oswald" by face alone as the same little boy from Yorkville 15 years earlier, if he were using a different name. What name? "Oswald". She knew him as "Oswald" back in the 1940's - that's why she was so certain it was the same young man when she drove to Connecticut to place her call to Mrs. Jack Tippit!" This is a good reading of the information. I can generally agree with Paul's conclusions. I have some doubts the name Oswald was used in the 1940s, but will go along with Paul lacking information to the contrary. However, I would like to keep the conclusions open in the light of not knowing who the mysterious caller was. And, finding a firm connection between John Gardos / Lee Harvey Oswald. As I said in an earlier post the FBI considered this information valid and credible. Their behavior in this matter says so. Paul also said, "But this is irrelevant to our focus on Gardos and the mysterious woman caller." This refers to the 1952-1953 period when the Oswalds were in New York. I've had this believe also, but I also had beliefs that this period is important due to the Fuhrmans being Hungarians. And, John Pic's omission of information about his wife's family. I believe Jenner and Pic were working off of a script and this was an agreed on omission. Half the time I am thinking the only people, Hungarian, in this situation are the Fuhrmans and are relevant to understanding what is happening. I can't find a connection between the Fuhrmans and the Gardos. Doesn't mean there isn't one. There are language problems in this FBI document that may give clues to the identity of the mysterious caller.

The credibility of the Mrs Jack Tippit Call URGENT 11-30-63 7-37 PM EST MB TO DIRECTOR, AND SACS DALLAS AND NEW YORK FROM SAC, NEW HAVEN /100-18158/ NEW YORK VIA WASHINGTON LEE HARVEY OSWALD, IS – R This is the title of the FBI document that details the events of the Mrs. Jack Tippit call. This involves Lee Harvey Oswald and is assigned to a classification involving intelligence matters, IS-R. I believe IS-R means Internal Security, Russia. The routing of information on this matter goes from FBI offices in New Haven to New York and then to Washington. And, then from Washington to Dallas and back to New York. In the body of the report it indicates that at 11:30 AM Mrs. Jack Tippit receives an anonymous call from a mysterious caller. “AT APPROXIMATELY ELEVEN THIRTY AM ON INSTANT DATE MRS. TIPPIT RECEIVED A TELEPHONE CALL FROM UNKNOWN WOMAN” The matter of the phone call was resolved by the FBI during an approximate eight-hour period. It was treated as an urgent matter. At the end of the document is this information which gives one the time period of resolving this call. The information goes to the top of the FBI and the document is later sent to Mr. Rosen, Assistant Director of the FBI. The decision on what to do is more than likely handled by AD Rosen and the Director, J. Edgar Hoover. Hoover is not mentioned, but Hoover was a micro-manager and was likely involved. END AND ACK PLS 7-45 PM OK FBI WA LLD FOR RELAY 6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL TU PLSDISC M CC-MR_ROSEN “FOR RELAY 6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL” Most of this is difficult to read, but I would think that everything was handled by 6-47 CST / 7-47 EST. This suggest that this was truly and urgent and important matter that had to be relayed to the top of the FBI for disposal. There is another line in the ending information “6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL”, which I take to mean DL = Dallas and FL means Florida. It could mean something else. The point of this discussion is that the information contained in this document was urgent and had to be handled immediately. This means that the FBI found the information about the Tippit call creditable involving Lee Harvey Oswald. This was information that the leadership of the FBI did not want anyone to know outside of the heads of various FBI offices and denied to general knowledge. They marked the document Top Secret and not to be declassified. This document was kept secret from 11-30-63 to 7-19-93. This is a period of 30 years. All of this says that the mysterious caller saying that Emile Kardos (Emil Gardos) was the father of Lee Harvey Oswald has validity. Further more the uncle and brother in law were known. They were Hungarian communists and planned to take over the US. When Emil Gardos’ wife, Grace Amalia Blair Gardos, is known then the uncle and brother in law becomes Grace’s brother, Fred Blair. Being hid for 30 years has dulled the effect of this document. Some people think this was a crank call. This matter has been worked on over the past 20 or so years and more and more information explaining this call has developed over that period. At this point there is no direct evidence other than this report connecting Grace Gardo’s son, John Gardos, who was born in the same year as Lee Harvey Oswald, is Lee Harvey Oswald. If the FBI saw this as credible then further research is warranted to prove or disprove this information.

Jim, I originally thought that phony Margaret brought Lee to New York. But, reading through the Tippit document and comments I became convinced that phony Margaret brought Harvey to New York. Frankly, that made about as much sense as the other. Shouldn't one pair of Oswalds, the orginals, do things together and the phony Oswalds also do things together? They couldn't be there at the same time. Unless Margaret Pic was in on the business and knew things that were going on. John Pic I no longer think dealt with this situation honestly. So, who are you saying first came to New York and moved in on the Pics? As the use to say in Monty Python "And, now for something totally different." In the Tippit FBI document Mrs. Tippit said the mysterious caller sounded German or Austrian. Mr. Tippit said the caller sounded Spanish. I think Hungarian and Spanish sound alike if you don't pay attention to the words. Try it. Go to Google type Spanish to Hungarian. And, when that translator comes up type a phrase in Spanish and it will show up on the Hungarian side. Listen to the sound in Spanish and the sound in Hungarian and don't pay attention to the words. I think they sound similar and might give a similar accent. Then try a phrase in German to Hungarian. It is a totally different sound. German and Austrian are the same or basically the same. They are a Germanic language. Spanish is a Romance language related to Latin. Latin and German separate about 3200 or 3500 years ago as the Indo-Europeans settle into Europe. Magyar or Hungarian is a totally different language family related to Finno-Ugric. Magyar is related to western Siberian languages. German or Austrian do not sound like a Romance language or Hungarian. If this is true than it is another point in favor of the credibility of the Tippit document. This could identify the mysterious caller as a Hungarian. Hungarian could have been changed to German or Austrian by the FBI to mislead further. I don't see the point changing language names since Emile Kardos is mentioned. Why change anything since this was to be kept Top Secret and not declassified. It wasn't hard to figure out who Emil Gardos, was and once Grace was known as the wife it was not difficult to pin Fred Blair as the uncle and brother in law.

David, If what you say is so, then why isn't this effect shown on anyone else in the photo? The Oswald figure stands out from the rest as abnormal. Even with your correction there is still a missing or deformed arm to explain. Can you identify what the red arrow is pointing to. Notice the two Marines above do not have this feature. I think this is another example of compositing. It appears to be part of a shoulder strap for a harness to hold a back pack or what was called in those days an "ass' pack and now a days called a butt pack.

David, If both schools were there in 1952 then which is the one Oswald rejected and went elsewhere?