John Butler

Jim, The fees are not significant. They can be done on a montly basis. I'm just not optimistic. Let me do further research and I might give it a try.

As a conspiracy theorist I believe more and more of the secret history of the US will be revealed as time goes along. I'm sure Lyndon and his cohorts wouldn't have wanted his revealed. After all he was awarded many awards for public speaking.

Jim, You are right. The thing to do with John Gardos is try to eliminate him as a candidate for Harvey Oswald. That's the best method. Unforunately, I don't speak Russian or Hungarian or any foreign language. If you noticed my writing I barely have a command of the English language. I take after my dear old Grandmom. There are records available to be searched in the International section of ancestry.com. I would buy access to these records if I knew they were translated into English. Sandy could find no information on whether these records are translated or not. An another search by me finds that you have to translate the documents. They suggest using Google Translate or some program. I'm not confident that it would be helpful.

This may sound like it is off topic. I have found a youtube video: But, it is a riveting and fascinating look at the communist infiltration of the US, Soviet spy methods, and Spies before and during WWII. The first part of this video the Soviet female spy, Elizaveta Zaprudin, reminds me of Marina Oswald. This woman was ruthless. This woman infiltrated the Manhattan Project and used Robert Oppenheimer and others as communist informers on the Atomic Bomb. They had the plans for the bomb as soon as it was drafted. Robert Oppenheimer's wife was a dedicated communist militant. She helped Elizaveta with Robert. The connection to what we are talking about is communists in Yorkville, NY. Robert Oppeheimer live at 155 West 88th Street, NY. This is in the western edge of Yorkville, the communist capital of NY for Germans, Hungarians, and Russians) in the affluent area.

Jim, This is an excellent summary of the Gardos communists. There is a need to correct one slight error. "Emil’s uncle Fred Blair wrote" Fred Blair was Emil's brother in law and John Gardos' uncle. I figure that's a typing error. I have for some time tried to connect the Blairs with the Gardos without much luck. That is until I looked up District 5 where Emil Gardos ran for office in 1932. District 5 is in Milwaukee, WI and I figure this is where Emil met up with Fred and consequently Grace. Grace was 21 in 1932. More info on that is needed to tie that down. At this point I am just to lazy to look. (Sandy has looked into this and she can find no records for Fred Blair after 1920. There is a Charles W. that has a son with a second name as Emil in the 1940 Census.) Emil Gardos and Fred Blair became brother in laws through Grace A. Blair. John Gardos' father and uncle were Emil and Fred. Fred is also the brother in law of Emil and consequently his uncle. This is what I believe the Tippit phone call is saying. Fred Blair is the brother in law mentioned. There is no other good candidate for the brother in law. Using the old monk's razor, it is the simplest answer. I have created a time of events for Fred Blair. At no time did I find a reference for Fred Blair living in New York (Yorkville). That doesn't mean he didn't live at 77th and 2nd Avenue in Yorkville at some time or another. "In his letter to the Milwaukee Sentinel published in the November 19, 1976 edition (p. 22), Emil’s uncle Fred Blair wrote “I have just received a postcard from my sister, Grace Blair Gardos, and her husband, Emil Gardos, who have lived in Budapest the past 28 years….”. I don't find this statement by Fred Blair exactly trustworthy. Emil and Amalia (Grace) were still living at their address in 1949 and possibly 1950. This document means that Hungary did not accept them in 1948 and they are applying for visas to Hungary as applicants for visas. Fred may be covering up for what you suspect about Emil Gardos. Since Fred is saying in this statement that they lived there for 28 years implying by that they live there since 1948. "As John Kowalski pointed out, if John Gardos was “Harvey, then there should be no evidence that he was alive after Harvey's murder by Jack Ruby on November 24 1963.” Just before Thanksgiving, I did a search on a genealogy and newspaper database and found nothing for our “John Gardos” after 1963." As far as that goes I can only speculate: 1. Grace and Emil took John to Hungary in 1949 or 1950. 2. They didn't take John because of the fighting between the Russians and the Germans/Hungarians resulted in massive damage to Hungary resulting in terrible economic conditions that lasted for years. 3. Grace and Emil took John to Hungary, but sent him back with other immigrants at a later date. 4. Grace and Emil took John to Hungary, but sent him back because their lives were under a life and death shadow. Why? I believe they were sent to Hungary as US operatives. I believe that earlier their lives as communists were coopted into lives as communist confidential informants and later as operatives.

John Pic and the mysterious Hungarian Parents John Pic, the half-brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, joined the Coast Guard and was stationed in New York City in the early 1950s. While there he, met and married Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. John Pic’s WC testimony has to say this when questioned by WC interrogator Albert Jenner: “Mr. JENNER - Give the full name of your wife including her married name, children, if any, ages and names and where born. Mr. PIC - My wife's maiden name is Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. My eldest is John Edward Pic, Jr., 14 May, 1952. My daughter, Janet Ann Pic, 18 October 1954; James Michael Pic, 22 February 1960. Mr. JENNER - Your wife Margaret is--she was born where? Mr. PIC - New York City, sir. Mr. JENNER - Her parents are native Americans as well as she? Mr. PIC - No, sir; they are not. Mr. JENNER - What do you know of them? Mr. PIC - Her father died; I never met the man while we were going together. Her mother and father were separated. Her mother was born in Hungary, I think. Her father was also, sir. Mr. JENNER - What do you understand as to when they came to, this country? Mr. PIC - I have never inquired. It has probably been mentioned but I have forgotten. Mr. JENNER - Was it your impression they had been here a good many years? Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; they have seven children. The eldest being in her forties, I am pretty sure. Mr. JENNER - I see. When you met your wife she was living with her mother? Mr. PIC - Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER - Where? Mr. PIC - 325 East 92d Street, New York City. Mr. JENNER - And you were at that time in the service?” The address 325 East 92nd Street will become interesting in a moment. I have read through John Pic’s testimony several times and have come away with the notion that John Pic was an honest fellow. However, if you read the above testimony the names of the parents of Margaret Fuhrman Pic are not mentioned. Did Jenner fail to ask what their names were by omission or commission? And, is this important? Later on, I ran across a few brief statements by John Pic that made me think Pic and Jenner were working off of a script. “Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't make that statement. I make the statement that it is my definite recollection I was in the Infant Jesus College School while we lived in this house on Alvez. What months these were, sir, I don't know.” “Mr. PIC - That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I able to communicate with him in any way." Mr. JENNER - Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then give in your own words the facts. Mr. PIC - Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider us the best of friends as far as older brother- younger brother relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite a bit of me.” Jenner has a very detailed knowledge of John Pic and the Oswalds that he must have gotten from someone. This has led me to question the credibility of John Pic and Albert Jenner. Doing research on Margaret Pic, I ran across several family histories that mention Margaret Pic, but not her parents. They were listed as unknown or private. The only other information on Margaret’s parents come from her Social Security application. This application lists her parents as Alexander S. Fuhrman and Mary Rieprecht. This is verified by another daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish lists on her Social Security application as having the same parents. Mrs. Emma Parrish is listed in John Pic’s WC testimony as living in Norfolk, VA. And, Margaret’s mother is staying with her other daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish, when the Oswalds moved in on John Pic and wife in 1952. There is a 1920 census record for Alexander and Mary Fuhrman. It identifies them as being Magyar or Hungarian. At the time, 1920, they are living in Kentucky and Fuhrman is working as time keeper at a coal mine. This was probably in Harlan, KY. There are no other records available for the parents of Margaret Fuhrman Pic. Of course, this kind of information leads to speculation if her parents were communists and folks were hiding that fact. They lived in Little Hungary in Yorkville, NY. Yorkville, NY had the largest concentration of Hungarian people living there outside of Hungary. Many of these were communists. New York during he 1930s was the capital of the communist movement in the US. And, I did the distance between Emil Gardo’s address and Mary Fuhrman’s address and came up with this: .07 miles in a big area when considering New York. I don’t know if this would constitute a neighborhood. 325 East 92 Street is at the upper end of Little Hungary in Yorkville, NY. If not a neighborhood then this would be a cultural area. Still it would be hard to associate Gardos and Fuhrmans. If the Fuhrmans had been communist an association might be easier to suggest through local events, organizations, and establishments. Being communist might be what folks were hiding. However, I found no evidence of the Fuhrman’s having any associations with communism. In fact I have very little facts to report about the Fuhrmans. Margaret’s missing Hungarian, or better information, on Margaret’s Hungarian parents leads one to question John Pic and Albert Jenner. As detailed as the John Pic testimony was it suggests a practiced rehearsal for a public performance. The name of Margaret’s parents should have been made known.

Jake, A lot of people hear something in Harvey's voice other than a deep southern accent from Texas or Louisiana. I guess he could have lost some of his accent when he was in New York for almost 2 years. Oh, sorry, that was Lee. I ask for forgiveness for that poor attempt at a joke. I had never paid attention to Marquerite's accents until someone pointed that out recently. In the comments I just posted I speculated about languages and what could possibly be the source of Harvey's underlying accents. I think I read in either pysch texts or some magazine that we are closest to our mothers and learn are language from are mothers. That's why I mentioned John Gardos' primary language should have been English with no underlying accent. However, he was reared in a household that may have spoken 3 languages. He grew up in an multi-lingual area with Hungarian and Russian dominating. If he learned 3 languages growing up then at times the other languages or accents should be noticeable from time to time. I will give you an example from my family history. My father's people were Scotch-Irish and have been in this country since at least the 1770s. My mother's parents were immigrants and came to this country in the early 1900s. If you met my mother you would have heard a strong, central KY, southern rural voice. English was not her primary language. Nor, was a southern accent was something she learned as a child. My mother grew up just outside of Chicago in an immigrant family and had at one time a regional accent from that area. You would not have known this by speaking to her in her later years. My grandfather is reputed to speak 7 languages, but I don't think my grandmother ever learned to speak English. That's why she was an alien immigrant all of her life with no naturalization papers. I mention this to suggest there is a wide spectrum of language abilities and depending on one's ability to handle other languages. Harvey's accents do not rule out that he was a native born citizen. At, the same time it doesn't rule out that he was an immigrant brought to this country.

One of the problems with John Gardos as Harvey Oswald is his language heritage. Grace, his mother, spoke Americn English. So, you would expect his primary language would be English. Emil his father may have spoken both Hungarian and Russian since many Hungarian immigrants did. Harvey and Lee speculates this: “But she could have known HARVEY Oswald's father, who she said was from Hungary and lived near 77th& 2nd Avenue in Yorkville, where many eastern European refugees were then living. We should remember Dr. Renatus Hartog's description of HARVEY Oswald while at the Youth House. Hartogs said "he (13 year old HARVEY Oswald) had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps at the end of WWII." If HARVEY Oswald's father and uncle were from Hungary, it is likely that HARVEY Oswald's native language was Hungarian and/or Russian (after the Soviet Union annexed Eastern Block countries, those countries were required to teach the Russian language in all schools). This would explain HARVEY Oswald's proficiency in the Russian language, his ability to pass a Russian language exam at age 19, and his familiarity with communism.” Emil and Grace Gardos were married in 1936. John comes along in 1939. I suppose that Grace could have learned Hungarian and Russian to more easily communicate with her husband. Maybe John grew up in a household that spoke Hungarian, Russian, and English. And, he definitely grew up in a area filled with Russian and Hungarian speakers. Friends and early school children would all be dealing with language problems. Another problem is Marina said that Harvey’s accent was sort of Polish or Baltic state. Would Hungarian sound that way? Could it, a Hungarian accent, be confused with a Polish accent? Another speculative condition might be did Emil and Grace take John to Hungary and because of the poor economic conditions and war time damage there send him back to America after a year of so in about 1952 into the loving arms of Margarite? Could he have been the Hungarian waif that David Joseph's picture shows? That's still a stretch. There is still not enough evidence to say so. But, wouldn't that be nice. The mystery of Harvey Oswald background leads to speculation and that might be the best way to look for things to fill in that background. Whether Little Hungary and the Gardos communists have anything to do with Harvey Oswald’s background is a big question.

Thanks David, I'm not certain, but that does look like Harvey. I won't argue that it isn't. The resemblance is to close. I'm beginning to have problems with John Pic's testimony. I have always believed that John Pic was an honest fellow. I'll comment on that momentarily.

From Jim Hargrove: “Geez, how many times did they deport this guy? The Cleveland Plain Dealer and several other papers reported he was ordered out of the country in March 1936. John B. finds the Congressional Record reporting him ordered to leave (again) in April 1948. And yet in 1949 he apparently has an address on Eighty-sixth St. in New York. This game of whack-a-commie mole seems weird!” The story is stranger than that. Emil Gardos was ordered out of the country in 1934 when his naturalization process was denied. His naturalization process was started in 1927 and it would have taken another 7 years for his process to be confirmed or denied. 7 years was a mandatory length of time for a person to become a citizen. Or, so I thought. By 1934 the time for a citizenship naturalization was reduced to 5 years. And, over time has been reduced further. Some records indicate that Grace A. (Amalia or Amelia) Blair Gardos left America for Hungary in 1948. I am beginning to think none of that happened. In 1949 and 1950 Emil and Amalia Gardos are living at their home at 217 East 86th Street, in Yorkville, New York, NY. I could be that Emil and Grace left in 1948 and then came back to New York in 1949. Eventually, they will live in Hungary, but when did that begin? After 1949 - 1950? Emil and Amalia Gardos are on this list of names. Yorkville is a neighborhood in the Upper East Side of Manhattan, New York City. Its southern boundary is East 79th Street, its northern East 96th Street, its western Third Avenue, and its eastern the East River. Yorkville is among the city's most affluent neighborhoods. The Yorkville area of New York has many Hungarian and Russian speaking people there. 79th Street was a hub for the Austro-Hungarian populace. Popular restaurants included the Viennese Lantern, Tokay, Hungarian Gardens, Robert Heller's Cafe Abazzia at 2nd Avenue, Budapest and the Debrechen.[21] There were also a number of butcher stores and businesses that imported goods from Hungary. Churches included St. Stephen Catholic Church and the Hungarian Reformed Church on East 82nd Street. In addition, Czechs, Poles and Slovaks lived from 65th to 73rd Street. Besides Ruc, a Czech restaurant off Second Avenue, there were sokol halls on 67th and 71st Streets. There were other Czech and Slovak businesses, such as Czech butcher shops, poultry and grocery stores, and shops that sold imported goods such as Bohemian books, leather products and crystal. Yorkville, NY is often called little Hungary. Here is an interesting thought with little connection to reality at this point, but one that popped into my mind. Assume John Gardos was Harvey Oswald. Would he visit his old neighborhood when he stayed overnight in New York in the Spring of 1962. This is idle speculation. According to Spa Raikin it took two hours of travel from Hoboken, New Jersey to get to a cheap Hotel on Times Square. The Times Square Hotel was a cheap hotel in those days. I spent nights there several times during late 1966 to 1967. I cost about $5.00 per night. I guess you can get cheaper than that in those days. Anyway, Harvey and Marina are staying in a cheap hotel on Times Square. If Harvey was in reality John Gardos would he be tempted to return to his old neighborhood. How far away would be his old home at 217 East 86 Street in Yorkville, NY? The distance from Times Square to 217 East 86 Street is 2.6 miles. The distance could be covered in a short period of time by cab or bus. This is simply an idle speculation at this point. Spas Raikens two hour trip to from Hoboken to Times Square must have involved heavy traffic to take that much time.

I hope this lightened and sharpened version helps with understanding what Steve is saying.

Lack of parental bonding was my facetious of saying the same things that Paul and David said later. We'll probably never know who Harvey Oswald was. The best candidate cannot be connected to Harvey in a firm manner. Recently, on this thread the Mrs. Jack Tippit call has been fleshed out more so than in the past. There has been enough evidence recently shown that one can say with some confidence the call by the mysterious woman to Mrs. Tippit has some credibility. Hungarians and others surrounding the communist Emil Gardos may be involved in providing Harvey to the Oswald Project as it came to be called. But, that can't be said with authority. It is a good point to make that Marquerite is not the real mother of Harvey and someone else is. Whether it is someone around Emil Gardos or someone else it fairly certain that Marquerite is not Harvey's mother.

From Steve and David's comments one can rationalize the notion that Harvey didn't care much for this mother. I wonder why? Lack of parental bonding at an early age?

I really don't like to argue with Jim Hargrove since he is right more often than me. But, it is my contention that Lee Oswald was in Russia and he was there when or shortly after Marina showed up. This photo to the picture right shows Lee and not, Harvey. You can't see his face but you can see his left ear. The difference between the two, Harvey and Lee, in these photos is their ears. Harvey's left ear has two crooks in the upper rim. Lee's left ear does not have these features. It appears Lee has been given an earlobe. Harvey has earlobes. These ear features are just one of several identifying characteristics of the two. The photo editors knew about an altered these features when necessary and emphasized in others. Artists understand these type of things and use them in their art work to make a representation look more like the original. You can look at baby or young child photos of Harvey and Lee and identify whose who. Just as an aside, from the expressions on Marina's face I think she liked Lee more than Harvey. Because of this dual relationship, IMO, it is the reason that Marina may have been beaten from time to time by Harvey. I've said enough to get into trouble again so I will quit. and,

Andrej first said, “Nothing is just black or white in real life. I do not believe Mrs. Baker's story as described in her book Me &Lee simply because there is no scientific ground for her bio-weapon story - it is not possible to cause cancer by injecting mice cancer cells into a healthy human, this is a complete nonsense. That said, Mrs. Baker must have her reasons or there may be motives stronger than herself for creating the Me&Lee story, and I am not the judge of her motives. The white side is that Mrs. Judy Baker is enthusiastically promoting the idea of Lee Oswald's innocence and by doing so she also attracts a lot of good researchers for the conferences she happens to organise. And for that she deserves credit” I responded, “What was causing the cancer was Simian Virus 40 which is the forerunner of HIV or aids. This virulent form of cancer was first noticed in the late 1970's with the chimpanzee heart replacement for a human in an experimental trial. The heart worked fine but they could not keep the man alive do to an overwhelming series of complications. Imagine what it did to Jack Ruby and others once they were injected. Jack knew what they did to him, but was powerless to do anything about it. Dr. Mary's Monkey is about Simian Virus 40 contaminating the polio vaccines of the late 1950s. They grew the vaccines on monkey organs and picked up the virus in the polio vaccine. IMO, Aids began in New Orleans, the nation's second largest port, in the 1960s and was spread through out the world from there though sailors.” Andrej replied, “Did you read the book? Judy and Lee Oswald allegedly grew tumors in mice and extracted the strongest cancer cells to use them again for some kind of breeding. Judyth' story was not about any viruses, they allegedly took live cancer cells after several weeks of growing them in Ferries's kitchen and used a thermos to transport them. When Lee though the cells were hungry, he opened the lid of the thermos and dropped some kind of solid foodstuff to them. It is beyond comprehension that people can believe this.” I have a lot of respect for Andrej Stancak and admire his work. The last thing I would want to do is argue with him, but this needs a response. And, we will see who has read Me and Lee as we go along. In order to do that one needs to understand extracellular diseases such as gonorrhea and intracellular diseases such as HIV. Bacteria are extracellular agents. Viruses are intracellular agents. It is the virus in the cancer cells which was causing the cancerous activity. I think my answer to Andrej's first statement is sound. Particularly, the first two paragraphs I wrote. You folks that think otherwise should watch Dana Andrews video on Page 4. Watch it in its entirety. This explains what I said it great detail. The third and last paragraph can be argued about and is somewhat iffy. I based what I said there on anecdotal evidence. I was in the military in 1968 in Korea. I had leave time coming and thought I would go to Japan. I was warned by folks I knew not to go there because people were catching what was called the "black clap". If you did so then more than likely you would die two or three weeks later. I equate this "black clap" rumor with the cancer causing agents developed in New Orleans in 1963 by the CIA and Dr. Mary Sherman and company. From New Orleans ports this disease spread to other ports. I might be wrong in this, but that's my opinion. The work that was done in New Orleans in 1963 by Dr. Mary Shermon and her cohorts is IMO, directly responsible for the spread of HIV or aids. Here is an interesting fact that most anthropologists will argue about and deny vehemently. Humans, Orangutans, and Gibbons do not have Simian Virus 40 and are susceptible to it. That might suggest an alternate evolutionary path for humans and Asian primates. If you want to see steam coming from an anthropologist’s ears, and their head explode, mention that. But, the facts about humans, orangs, and gibbons are facts. African Primates, particularly chimpanzees and monkeys do have this virus. The mouse cancer causing vaccines were contaminated with Simian Virus 40 just as the polio vaccines were. These particular vaccines were grown on monkey organs to obtain the material to make a vaccine which were irradiated and sent back to Judith to inject more mice. Judith Baker was injecting mice with a vaccine containing a cancer-causing virus, SV 40. Once the injected mice grew cancers these were harvested and sent to Dr. Mary Sherman for further processing. Dr. Ed Haslam, author of Dr. Mary's Monkey, introduces the book, Me and Lee, by Judith Vary Baker. He describes her as a "technician that has been trained to handle cancer causing viruses". If one doesn't know, Marmosets are South American monkeys and have been separated from African primates since the Oligocene, roughly 30 to 40 million years ago. Marmosets have the SV 40 virus and carry an immunity to SV 40. The mention of Green Monkeys indicates they are dealing with SV 40 viruses.

From an earlier page an unanswered question: "Does your reference to 1949 on Eighty-sixth Street apply to the following: Emil Gardos Amalia Gordos The address is the same: 217 East Eighty-six Street, New York, NY." Amalia Gordos has this address in 1949(?). Earlier we have this for that address: and, This indicates that 217 East Eighty-six Street was the address of Emil and Grace Gardos up until 1948. Afterward there is an Amalia Gardos living there. Amalia Gardos family may have been some relative of Emil's. If John Gardos was left in the US in 1948 this would have been a good place to leave him. Still, all in all, it is still speculation. There is still not enough info to tie this together.

These are really well done comparisons emphasizing the difference between Harvey and Lee. I think the trick of Harvey and Lee is that they couldn't be seen at the same time or within a short period of time. There was a need for time to blur their images. And, if someone did notice Oswald differences there is a good possibility that that someone would attribute those difference to their poor memory and accept whatever Oswald that was present as Lee Oswald. Their photos couldn't be compared and that's why there was so much photo editing. Lee Oswald was edited out of the photo record except for a few things that were missed. There is numerous accounts of the surly Oswald who mumbles something and then walks away. There was one lady at the unemployment office, I believe, who noticed the difference between the two. They met with her separated by a short period of time. Owen Dejanovich may have met Lee at the Biloxi training class and then Harvey at Iwakuni, Japan. He noticed differences, but he couldn't say he was a different person. About a years time had passed from Biloxi to Iwakuni. Judith Baker has been mentioned lately a time or two. She said in her book Me and Lee that she was horrible at facial recognition and this got her in trouble with Carlos Marcello. IMO, Lee and Harvey were both working New Orleans. One of the things that bothered me about that is would she be able to recognize Lee from Harvey if they met? If she couldn't that raises complications. Marina knew the differences between Lee and Harvey and lived with both. That's just one of the reasons I believe Marina was a Soviet double agent. She pretended to go along with Lee and Harvey in order to get to the US and then when she was in the US where she wanted to be she doubled back to her Soviet masters.

Paul, That is a very interesting piece. Someone like this Freyer could have worked on Emil Gardos in the 1920s and 1930s converting him into an informer based on the pressure of deportation and since he was an informer he may have been converted into an agent later. The Worker and Yorkville and Hungarian immigrants New York New Jersey seem to have connections. They pop up in different stories involving the same things. Altogether this is a strange story. Why did it take from 1922-1927 to 1934 to process and cancel Emil Gardos citizenship application? In 1934 he was under Court ordered deportation. Why did it take 14 years from 1934 to 1948 to deport Gardos? Why did his wife follow him there? Could be any number of reasons. Who paid his pension? Why did Grace die at the American Embassy? Why was she living there? What happened to John Gardos? Why were records involving Grace Gardos marked Top Secret and hid for almost 25 years? Why was this record revealed only after her death at 70 in 1981?

Paul and Jim, Thanks for the comments. I posted this statement "At this point there is absolutely no firm connection between John Gardos and Harvey Oswald." I was working this scenario based partly on the idea there is not any records for a John Gardos after 1940. This could be due to the fact that he went to Hungary with his mother in 1948. Or, another fate overcame him as his mother and father went to Hungary in 1948. What I was doing was exploring possibilities. Paul's second paragraph is hard to get past. That is a realistic description of most folks with there children. However, If Emil and Grace were truly dedicated communists it would be hard to predict what they might do to advance the cause of communism. It would be hard to predict what sacrifices they would make. If on the other hand they were somehow agents of the US because Emil had been coopted as an informer earlier by the US government would they want to take their child into the dangerous conditions of Hungary after WWII as the Soviets converted the country from a pro-facist government to a pro-soviet government with the citizenship of the country being converted to communism from facism? I don't know how extensive the war was in Hungary and what damages there were after WWII. Economic conditions all over Europe were bad with the only help coming from the Marshall Plan. That would lead to poor conditions and hardships there. And, there would certainly be dangerous conditions as the country was converted to communism. 8 years later in 1956 the Hungarian Revolution occurred as the Hungarians tried to overthrow Soviet control. I don't know whether the Gardos were good communists or posing as good communists. Either way the deportation of Emil and the subsequent journey of Grace to Hungary incurred a certain amount of risk on their part. I can see parents under those conditions leaving a child with relatives to not expose him to those risky conditions. If they were US agents as I suspect due to Grace living and dying at the American Embassy their daily existence in Hungary would be a life and death situation. David Josephs just posted and interesting piece on the BYP and the newspapers the Oswald figure is holding. Oswald claimed to be a Marxist and not a hard core communist on a number of occasions. I don't really want to detract from what he is saying because I find it convincing but, I might add to Josephs piece the notion that maybe someone who set the background composition of the BYP might not have known of this difference in philosophy of socialists and communists. I suspect that almost everyone doesn't realize there is a difference between the two. I would position socialism as a gateway drug to communism and a totalitarian state.

Thanks Paul, 1953 and maybe as far back as 1947. That's 14 years from the birth of Lee Harvey Oswald and Harvey Oswald. They were roughly the same age. John Gardos was born in 1939 and that would make him 14 in 1953. That is the only record that can be found for John Gardos, the son of Emil and Grace Gardos. At this point there is absolutely no firm connection between John Gardos and Harvey Oswald. What info that is available is circumstantial at best. So, what I am trying to do is narrow the age range from Harvey Oswald back towards 1948 when the Gardos family was still in the US and John Gardos would be with his family, Emil and Grace. Emil Kardos, more than likely Emil Gardos, is mentioned in the Mrs. Jack Tippit phone call. The mysterious woman caller said she knew Lee Harvey Oswald's father and uncle. They were Hungarian communists. This must be Emil Gardos and Fred Blair. John Gardos' uncle was Fred Blair. Fred was not a Hungarian. The mysterious caller could have just lumped Fred and Emil together. The mysterious caller also talks about the brother-in-law. This has to be Fred Blair. Fred is Grace's brother. This data is firm, backed up by clear Census records. With this information in hand and if the information is true one can logically conclude that John Gardos could be Harvey Oswald. Then again maybe not. There is that 6 year gap between 1948 when John, aged 10, is probably with his parents and Harvey is unknown until 1953 at age 14. We don't know if Emil and Grace took John to Hungary of they left him in the states with relatives or friends or the Oswald Project. I'm sure others can pick more holes in this contention. I would be glad to hear those.

Deleted. Information posted Amalia Gardos was not correct.

Paul, This is very interesting. I have one other speculation on the Gardos pension. This probably has very low probability. Would The Worker have paid a pension to Emil Gardos? I wouldn't think so. The Worker may have been a low circulation paper and not making much money. David Josephs has just posted material showing that the earliest record has Harvey mentioned in 1955. David has worked extensively with John Armstrong. I wonder if he would care to post any records of Harvey Oswald earlier than 1955 if any exist.

More on my believe that Emil Gardos never was a citizen contrary to several newspaper articles and other info. These Census records indicate that Emil Gardos was a citizen of Constanzia (Constanta) Romania. This is his citizenship application that was denied because he was a communist. These Census records indicate that Emil Gardos was a citizen of Constanzia (Constanta) Romania. His citizenship application was cancelled or denied by US District Court in 1934.

This is reposted from Steven Gaal from 2015. It will help on understanding the Grace/Emil Gardos story. At one time this was a Top Secret document excluded from declassification. Speculation: Was this why Harvey always reading the Worker? Was he keeping up with Mom and Dad? Here's another speculation based on Emil Gardos' pension. Who paid it? Did the Soviets pay his pension based on his good work as a dedicated communist leader for decades in the US? Or, did the US pay it for his work as an informant/spy for the US. It might be the later since his wife, who had been living in Hungary since 1948, was living at the US Embassy in Budapest when she died.

Paul, I think from what I have been reading the Fred Blair / Grace Blair Gardos family were all communists.