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Pete Mellor
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Posts posted by Pete Mellor
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23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Pete Mellor,
The Kefauver Committee is a solid lead. Thank you!
I did a search for Jack Ruby AND Kefauver as well as Jacob Rubenstein AND Kefauver in U.S. papers published before 11/22/1963 and got zero results. The database I used claims to have archives “from over 13,000 newspapers….”
The 133-page Kefauver Committee Final Report (Aug. 31, 1951) makes no mention of Jack Ruby or Jacob Rubenstein. There is, however, a single hit on “Ben Rubenstein” and one instance of “Ruby Kolod,” neither of which is our man.
A Google internet search produces claims that Ruby cut a deal with Kefauver staffers not to talk about certain things, but so far I've found no pre-11/22/1963 evidence for this in the public record. The Kefauver report mentions hundreds and hundreds of names, none of which are Jack Ruby or Jacob Rubenstein.
I’ll keep looking for more Kefauver Committee evidence, but so far I have nothing. Thanks again.
Jim, I thought your thread was an interesting idea so I did a search through some of my reading material. The information on the Kefauver link came out of Michael Collins Piper's 'Final Judgment'. I have this weird tome on Kindle & it comes with no Notes or references. Take that for what its worth. Don't want to lead you down any dark alleys. Kutner's papers are archived at the Hoover Institute, if they are searchable on line. He was a co-founder of Amnesty International & his bio doesn't fit with the Ruby character, or the charges of him in Piper's book.
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50 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Again, can anyone show me evidence on the public record prior to 11/22/1963 indicating Jack Ruby associated with organized crime figures?
Jim, Can you find anything on the appearance of Ruby when he was called before the Kefauver Senate Rackets Committee in 1950 to discuss underworld activities in his former home base of Chicago.
According to Ruby's lawyer Luis Kutner who represented Ruby at the above, his appearance was contingent upon the condition that the Kefauver Committee stay away from investigating organised crime in Dallas.
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I only caught up with this thread today, and watched 'Unacknowledged' on Netflix. The Shakespeare quote from Hamlet I do believe...'there are more things under heaven Horatio' etc. The Drake equation provides a fair figure for intelligent life in our universe. (Or maybe multiverse.)
One of my interests is astronomy, whenever the U.K. skies clear of clouds! As for U.F.O.'s until I get proof personally, I keep an open mind. I remember reading of Betty & Barney Hill's abduction back in my teens. I do except that sightings are made by professional and sound people, like airline & military pilots etc., but I've never seen a video that clearly shows proof of some extra-terrestrial craft. Saucer shapes and lights in the sky don't give me definitive convictions either way, although I have nothing to refute all the stories & testimonies.
If I have scepticism it comes from the distances of space. Our nearest star to our sun is Alpha Centauri (which is actually 3 stars) & they are over four light years away & no planets that reside in a favourable orbit to set up life, at least the last that I recall. I think the nearest possible system is into double figures of light years. So I ask myself why these clinging ons are travelling all this way in such numbers to play cat & mouse across our skies? My jury votes 'not proven'.
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On 5/27/2020 at 8:23 AM, Dr. Gregg Wager said:
There is indeed a crucial point to make here with the Vickie Adams / Sandra Sykes time interval on the staircase. They not only did not see Oswald running down the stairs but didn't see anyone running down.
That would mean that if a shot or two were taken from the sixth floor sniper's nest (perhaps from the Mauser), whoever was shooting had found some place other than the sixth floor to hide or blend in as employees, above the fourth floor where Adams / Sykes entered the staircase.
David Reitzes's website attacks a depiction in Oliver Stone's film of "unknown workmen" refurbishing floors, quoting the WC Report, that this work was being done by TSBD employees (Bonnie Ray Williams, Charles Givens, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, and Danny Arce).
Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald eating lunch downstairs at 12:25 (Reclaiming Parkland, 98); the Roy Truly / Marrion Baker story (put into question in Reclaiming Parkland, 192ff) would still make it hard for Oswald to race down the stairs; and Shelley and Lovelady were outside, downstairs. I always thought Williams's half-eaten chicken lunch a strange detail, especially if he may have been in the sniper's nest area as late as 10 minutes before the shooting (Reclaiming Parkland, 195f).
Which other TSBD employees (unaccounted for downstairs) could have constructed the sniper's nest scene and/or taken shots?
Purely by co-incidence I've just read Hyman's 'Burying the Lead' & p236 which states Miami Chief of Police Walter Headley Jr., quoting from Jesse Curry's book 'JFK Assassination File' ….."Eyewitnesses who reported seeing Dallas police interview two men on the 6th floor of the depository, turned over to the FBI and no statement about the second man or mention of an accomplice was in the FBI report."
Assume these witnesses had better eyesight than Howard Brennan!
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17 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:
There may be more I think to Jonestown and Lennon. Len Osanic has been trying to get Lennon's lawyer on his show.
Interesting. I know next to nothing re:- Jonestown, but I do dig into other assassinations & intel links to these cases.
Regarding Lennon's killing, it smells to me. British lawyer Fenton Bresler published 'Who Killed John Lennon' in late 80's which highlighted many similarities with Mark Chapman & other 'patsy' figures. Other writers have also had suspicions of CIA links to doorman Jose Perdomo.
The Stones drug bust in '67 involved intel agent Richard Schneidermann, over from the States to supply a wide range of drugs & set up the arrival of cops. Schneidermann was the only person to walk away free, & flew back to California. He was reportedly CIA.
Jimi Hendrix's manager was Military intel, & Jimi's demise is full of rumour & doubt.
The 'accidental' death of Diana Spencer in Paris also stinks of intel involvement & the official story is as wild as the JFK case.
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7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
I'm not making this up I promise. Just this in a sense kind of how it all started for me.
We moved to Grapevine, 20 miles N/W of Dallas for the second half of my senior year in 1974. Where my great grandad moved to in 1893. A new friend there in 74-75 mentioned a cabin on lake Grapevine where Lee Oswald stayed or hid out before the JFK assassination. I asked, in my naiveity, why would the guy who shot the president stay way out here in the middle of no where. He said I don't know but you want to see it? Sure.
We went then, that night. It was abandoned. I later noticed it wasn't noticeable from the road unless you were looking for it even in daylight, all faded reddish horizontal small stripped log construction. It blended in with the surrounding woods. It was fairly large, 30-40 W X 20-30 deep, not a very high roof. The door was open, literally about a third of the way. The moon was out. So we went in. A big open room with two bedrooms along the back wall, a counter and sink on the left. I don't remember a bathroom, maybe they used the woods and lake. Still a very few odd bits of furniture left. We went back once, my friend thought an end table would work well in his apartment.
There is now a near or over quarter million dollar home on the site. Given what I have learned over the years I have to wonder. Oswald was MIA the weekend before as well as one other after he came back from NOLA. It would have accommodated 4-8 or more easily with room for daytime or evening visitors, an area to discuss plans.
Then again I don't think Oswald knew what was up until after it happened, he wasn't involved in the planning.
But it helped me pay more attention to the newspaper and magazine articles, the tv features on the subject.
Did you ask your friend how he knew the alleged assassin hid out in that cabin?
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7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
Ron, that Washington Post article states data that is identical to what is the condition in U.K. & I think the per capita death count/population figure is higher here in U.K. than the States!
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The antimalarial drug touted by Donald Trump as a treatment for the coronavirus has been linked to an increased risk of death in patients, according to the first major study into its use.
The president called hydroxychloroquine a “game changer” in the fight against the virus in March, and has promoted its use ever since, despite no evidence that it had any positive effect for patients infected with Covid-19.
Earlier this week he claimed that he had been taking the drug himself. “I get a lot of tremendously positive news on the hydroxy,” Mr Trump said, adding: “What do you have to lose?”
But a new study of 96,000 hospitalised coronavirus patients around the world found there was a 34 perc ent increase in the risk of mortality in those given the drug. It also led to a 137 per cent increased risk of serious heart arrhythmias.
“Our large-scale, international, real-world analysis supports the absence of a clinical benefit of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine and points to potential harm in hospitalised patients with COVID-19,” said the authors of the study, which was published in the Lancet medical journal.
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10 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:
Thanks, Pete! Sounds good to me!
Sounds good to me too! This Saturday DPUK have Gary Severson on Skype talking about Richard Case Nagell & members can log into from home....in these times of lockdown it keeps our regular meetings going. I'll notify Bart & he can arrange the link at some point in the future. No rush if the publication is spring 2021.
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Sounds like a large body of work there Vince! I'll second Joe's comments above.
Sometime in the future could we arrange a Skype link to DPUK so our membership can get an interview with yourself and Bart to discuss the book?
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4 hours ago, John Butler said:
It's been a long time since I have studied Man, Myth, and Magic and UFOs and such. But, I do remember a few things about Charles Fort and the Fortean Society. They tinkered with and discussed things that are farther out then even I am willing to go.
To the point: Is this discussion of Fort and things Fortean an attempt to discredit Laura Kittrell through the Fortean Society beliefs? Is this an attempt to discredit her vis a vis the information she provided on the Oswald doubles.
PS
When I was a kid I enjoyed the writings of A. Merritt.
John, purely coincidence that Kittrell was mentioned in this thread & Bart posted a link on DPUK's FB page, to the blog where the Fortean article came from. An attempt to discredit her? No idea. As an amateur astronomer, I don't usually go for UFO's. However a year back I read 'UFO's, E.T.'s & Alien Abductions : A Scientist Looks at the Evidence' by John Crosbie Donderi. Interesting book, but the JFK case is as 'out of this world' as I can handle!
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2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:
Let me add another point about Carmen, since you reminded me Peter. (Love these UK guys)
In addition to the MSG birthday party baloney, she also said that MM had a roll in the hay with JFK in LA during the 1960 convention.
Little problem there. Monroe was not in LA at that time. She was filming a picture on the east coast. What McGovern did is he compared the calendars of JFK and RFK, and then contrasted that with two day by day books that were recently published about Monroe. So, as I said in my review, if the event does not match, then it has to be sourced to anecdotal evidence. When comparing it with an established record, anecdotal evidence has to be exceptional in quality and should have corroboration in a tangible way, or it should be discarded.
The problem with the witnesses that these guys use is they are a collection that would be laughed out of any legal proceeding. They would never make it to trial since they would be blown up at the deposition stage. Most of them make Howard Brennan look OK. In my essay I show the serous land mines underneath people like Smathers, Carmen, Grandison, and the human 500 pound bomb Bob Slatzer. (Slatzer was mentioned scores of times by both Summers and Wolfe.)
Yet this motley crew was assembled on TV for numerous specials. One of which was even occasioned by the publication of that preposterous book by Chuck Giancana Double Cross. Since that book said that somehow Giancana was with MM in Nevada the week of her death. McGovern proves that this was nonsense since Giancana had nothing to do with her career, and the same for Roselli. He spends several pages proving this. He is that thorough.
Please read his book.
And then ask yourself, why are there no many special on this case? And so few on the JFK and RFK cases?
(Hint: there is a direct connection.)
Jim, the special that I saw on U.K. tv recently pumping out this RFK did it BS also included an accusation that Peter Lawford in later years confirmed Bobby's involvement. Does McGovern deal with this in 'Murder Orthodoxies'?
And then ask yourself, why are there so many specials on this case? And so few on the JFK and RFK cases?
In U.K. if any programmes on these cases are broadcast, they are screened away from the main BBC & main independent channels & mostly appear on a wacko channel that often puts out progs on aliens, Hitler in S. America and assorted conspiracy stuff. Actually, I've only caught a couple on Monroe & RFK...JFK gets the majority. However, in all cases the content is shallow, ridiculous! 'Mortal Error-The Shot that killed JFK' type themes.
Second, this case, which is not a conspiracy, gets media time, while the JFK and RFK cases, which were conspiracies, get little or none.
I see it all as part of Wilford's 'Mighty Wurlitzer'
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After the JFK assassination the next month, Kittrell took on her own investigation, eventually deciding that this second Oswald was actually Curtis Laverne Crafoord. She would tell her story to the FBI in 1966, and again to the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1978. Her story would then become grist for alternative theories of Kennedy’s assassination. (She wrote a letter to “Time” magazine, published 15 December 1975: “To think that you still believe the Warren Report. I do look forward to a future issue featuring the tooth-fairy story.”)
Laura Kittrell never seems to have married. She outlived all of her immediate family. William Henderson II, her father, died in 1966. Her mother passed on 1988. Louise, her sister, died four years later, in 1992. She seems to have still been in Dallas as late as that year, but at some point presumably moved to Taylor county.
She died there on 10 June 2000. Laura F. Kittrell was 82. She was buried at Sparkman Hillcrest Memorial Park, where her mother and father were also interred.
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Kittrell’s most public skepticism of the official position came after the death of the Fortean Society, and so cannot really be used as evidence of her beliefs when she joined. But there are other reasons to suspect that she was disinclined to believe government pronouncements on controversial matters—even if (or maybe because) she worked for the government and seems to have shared at least some of her father’s progressive political inclinations.
Kittrell’s Fortean career, based on the evidence I have found, was quite short, and mostly opaque. The entirety of it is composed of two mentions in Doubt from the mid- to late-1950s. I do not know if she ever read Fort, or what drew her to the Fortean Society, nor what kept here there, though a few suggestions can be inferred from her contributions to Thayer’s Fortean magazine.
Kittrell’s first mention came in Doubt 47 (January 1955). The reference, though, is a generic one—Kittrell is listed in a paragraph of acknowledgments—that may have had something to do with anti-fluoridation reports (the credits were appended to a column on the topic) but also may not have. It is impossible from this mention to even be sure that Thayer referred to Laura F. Kittrell, because only the surname was included, though subsequent evidence strongly supports the idea that Laura had sent in the material. That most likely being the case, she was thus a member as early as the end of 1954. I am not sure what would have brought her to the Fortean Society at this time, though her father’s business may have provided an impetus: since she seems to have been somehow involved in the clipping service, she may have noted a mention to the Fortean Society in a news report.
That speculation is based on her second (and final) appearance in Doubt, issue 56 (March 1958). Thayer devoted this “Doubt” to Sputnik—he thought the evidence for them spurious at best—in the course of which he mentioned “phenomena” in Levelland, Texas, on the night of Saturday, 2 November 1957. Thayer did not disclose the nature of the phenomena, but contemporaneous newspapers report a fiery “thing” that flashed through the sky—as reported by several witnesses—and seemed to land on a highway, though it was not found. It was described as a 200-foot long egg of fire. This was a month after Sputnik was launched. A number of people said the ball was a space ship. Later investigations by the government, though, suggested there were fewer witnesses than originally reported, the stories were inconsistent, and the most likely explanation was ball lightning.
Thayer then went on: “In addition to the fine coverage from the national press by faithful members everywhere, the Society had the unique advantage of a member almost on the spot. That is MFS Laura Kittrell who owns a news clipping service in Dallas and heads a local UFO group. From her we received maps of the township and annotated diagrams of the events and interviews with eyewitnesses. In a more nearly normal issue this would make a feature story. Alas—we can only relate it to the Sputs—for they have taken over.” He then noted that the sighting occurred the very day Sputnik II was supposed to have been launched, and it reportedly passed over Moscow at the same time the events in Levelland unfolded. Similar phenomena then occurred in White Sands, N.M., the next day.
Thayer’s exact point here is obscure to me—he wanted to cast aspersions on the Sputnik reporting and leave open other possibilities, which he did, but I am not clear what exactly he thought was going on. At any rate, though, we do learn some more about Kittrell. It is this mention that allowed me to connect the name to Laura Frances—the Dallas home and the relationship with the clipping bureau provided the necessary evidence (though there is some room for my being wrong). She remained a member. And she displayed the same interest in investigating a matter for herself that had driven her to Guam when her brother disappeared and had her looking into the identity of the second Oswald a few years later. This was, no doubt, a Fortean trait, the need to get into the weeds and make discoveries on her own, not taking the word of officials.
The report also shows that she was interested in flying saucers—interested enough to head up her own group. This may not be exactly correct: Thayer also had her owning the news clipping bureau that was actually owned by her father. But it does suggest she was devoted to the subject. I obviously do not know when she took up UFOs, nor her opinion on them, nor, for that matter, to which group she belonged: my searches have come up empty. But it does explain how she might have learned about the Fortean Society, If she was collecting clippings on flying saucers for her own use, she likely came across the name of the Society. And if flying saucers were the main focus of her unorthodox views—or her only one—then she might not have heard about the Society until the early 1950s, which could account for the timing of her appearance in “Doubt.” (There was a mention of the Fortean Society in relation to flying saucers in a Vermont paper, August 1952, and several similar mentions across the country in 1951.)
There’s also evidence here for speculating about why she did not appear in “Doubt” again. To be sure, there are plenty of possibilities: she was too busy; the Society folded not long after, when Thayer died in August 1959; she sent in material, but it was not used. But there’s also the possibility that she was irritated by the short-shrift Thayer gave what seems to have been a great deal of work. By his own admission, it should have been a feature, but he chose not to give the material its due. He blames Sputnik, but there is no reason he could not have devoted space to all of her Fortean investigation in a subsequent issue. It is exactly the kind of detailed work he wanted from Forteans, and yet, when he got it, chose to sit on it—a reflection, perhaps, of his souring on Forteanism.
Whatever the case, it was the last mention of Kittrell in the pages of “Doubt.” Soon enough, she would have other conspiracies to investigate. -
18 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:
This was based on a good book on the subject by Don McGovern, called Murder Orthodoxies, but also on some work I had done previously plus some new stuff I did.
Great to shoot this down in flames!
In Part II you write: Carmen also had her version of what happened between the president and Monroe after the famous 1962 rally in Madison Square Garden, where Monroe sang Happy Birthday to the president. As McGovern shows, this is also wrong since Monroe’s time before, during, and afterwards is all accounted for by neutral witnesses. She was escorted to the event by her former father-in-law and she kindly met with her New York fan club after the fund raiser. Randy Taraborrelli agrees that no such encounter happened. (McGovern, pp. 217-18)-
In James Reston's 'Second Best Thing' published just recently, his essay documents in text as well as Cecil Stoughton's photographs MM attending the private party after the Madison Sq. Garden event at 33 East Sixty Ninth St., (still in that dress.) The party was attended by Jimmy Durante, Ella Fitzgerald, Shirley MacLaine, Harry Belafonte & Diahann Carroll among others. Marilyn departed the party by limo at around 2:00 am. Her driver took her to Brooklyn, where she dropped off Isadore Miller & went home alone to her thirteenth floor apartment at 444 East Fifty-Seventh St, arriving about 4:00 am.
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18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
I ordered the Wills and Demaris book myself, mainly out of curiosity. The fact that it is somewhat obscure is intriguing itself but one review did mention interesting detail on Ruby and Dallas at the time of the assassination and prior to it. Printed in 1968 it's at least somewhat timely, Kantor's book didn't come out until 1978 and though he was a Dallas reporter until about (?) 62' to my knowledge he wasn't around Dallas in the years after the assassination investigating it. Fourteen bucks including shipping. I can't take my to a matinee for that if I buy popcorn and a soda to share. I ought to get over three hours time perusing this.
I checked on Amazon all the Ian Griggs books that I put my name against & the Ruby book was by far the most expensive at £25. Have to wait & see if I get it. If other DPUK members also put their name on it, we have a bidding war!
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6 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:
And your point is...
Pam, I haven't read this book 'Dylan in America' but I don't see Bob Dylan having any sort of communist leaning in the early 60's, or any other traditional political party agenda for that matter.
As for Suze Rotolo being a passionate advocate of communism, I don't think so. Her parents maybe back in the 1950's, but they were of Italian descent & Italy had strong Commie party membership, particularly after WWII. (Don't know when the family arrived in U.S.) The generation in question were largely rejecting the values and politics of their parents. But Suze Rotolo was an artist & more influenced by the 'boho' Greenwich Village beat generation. Circles that both Dylan & Rotolo moved in at that time.
Whatever was under their bed, don't think there was anything red. Maybe some blues!
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2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:
I surely hope Steve, whom I met twice in Dallas as I recall, is able to find a local publisher for Ian's work - that normally makes things much easier. Knowing Ian I would expect what he had in print to be in good shape. However if that does not work out there I'm sure Debra at JFK Lancer would take a look at it for Steve.
O.K. Larry, when I hear back I'll let you know the score.
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12 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:
As you say that was a mistake by the author of the article, Dave McNary, not the producers of the film. Doesn't denigrate the producers in any way.
Agree Ray. Would look forward to watching this, pretty amazing after all this time that they assembled seven members of the medical staff. Although there are a few names that I have not come across before.
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11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
I stumbled across this title the other day and don't remember ever hearing of it. They have the title wrong in the header. It should be Jack Ruby The Man Who Killed The Man Who Killed Kennedy. I'm not sure what to think about the author. Several books on religion. One on the Kennedy family. One on Lincoln at Gettysburg won a Pulitzer. One on John Wayne. I don't see how it has 37% 5 star ratings when the highest it received was a 4. Has anyone else ever encountered this book?
Ian Griggs' remaining book collection has been offered to DPUK members & Willis & Demaris' 'Jack Ruby' is on that list. It's one of 10 that I have put my name against, just for the cost of postage. Not expecting 'fireworks', but just to add to my collection.
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On 5/9/2020 at 2:47 PM, Larry Hancock said:
To my understanding Ian's son does have his manuscript; I'm not in direct contact with him but I've offered via DPUK to assist if he wants help in publisher and Lancer very likely would help....Debra had offered to publish his DPD book but it never quite got to the stage where he wanted to release it....like many encyclopedic works I suspect they never seem quite done.
Larry, spoke with DPUK's secretary about Ian 's manuscript. He's going to contact Ian's son Steve to find out what he intends to do with this work.
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9 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:
I've just started reading Bob Dylan in America, and I am almost stunned to see how deep his Communist connections went. I knew that Suze and her family were passionate about that, but looks like Dylan was starting his concerts with Aaron Copland musica as late as 2001 on the Love and Theft tour. So I need to digest that.
I
Well, I was feeling sad and feeling’ blue,I didn’t know what in the world I was gonna do. Them Communists they was comin' around, they was in the air, they was on the ground. They wouldn't give me no peace!
Well, I finally started thinking straight, when I ran out of things to investigate. Couldn't imagine doing anything else,
so now I’m sitting home investigating myself! Hope I don’t find out anything hmm, great God!
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The article can't even get the date right!
"The seven doctors in the film describe their efforts to resuscitate Kennedy in the emergency room at Dallas’ Parkland Hospital on Nov. 23, 1963"
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1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:
Cliff, you have a customer.
😆Prompt service too! But that's the JFK case nearly 60 years on! No solid ballistics evidence. Incompetent autopsy. Are they bullet holes, or scalpel cuts? FBI has the shirt, has the size, knows JFK's body proportions etc., but can't put a shirt on a mannequin to prove beyond doubt where the POTUS was hit. Instead we get Specter i.e. speculation.
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19 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:
Reminds me of A. J. Weberman (coauthor of Coup D'Etat in America), who is famous for rifling through Dylan's garbage. (Is Weberman the source of the scrap of paper?) According to Wikipedia, after the 1969 release of Dylan's album Nashville Skyline, Weberman founded the Dylan Liberation Front, the aim of which was "to help save Bob Dylan from himself."
Well Ron, the paper has written & typed lyrics that must have been done in a hotel room in Nashville during the recording of 'Blonde on Blonde' in March '66. Who knows how it got to Sotherby's in London? If Weberman rescued it from a trash bin he should have kept hold of it! 37 grand is not to be sniffed at. But Weberman's trawling the trash was a few years after '66 so unlikely he ever had his hands on this.
Stanley Marks: Forgotten hero
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
MMF does not show on Amazon, however it does list Stanley Marks' book 'Coup d'état: November 22nd 1963' mentioned in the K&K's article... however this too is unavailable.