Bugliosi Has Won !

[Pat Speer]

I think Charles may have a point. The intellectual pursuits of today's average young person are watching "Jackass" on MTV, hanging out at the mall, talking on their cell phones, listening to mind deadening rap music and playing video games. They will hear somebody like Bugliosi pontificate about how there was no conspiracy to kill JFK and will believe it hook, line and sinker. Each new generation seems to get more and more intellectually lazy. A recent survey revealed that around seventy percent of the respondents didn't even know what year 9/11 happened on. I am hardly a Rhodes Scholar but this is absolutely uncalled for. I wonder how many High School seniors today don't even know the name of the alleged lone assassin of JFK. I am not kidding. This country is in a lot of trouble.

Brian, there are plenty who see it the other way. They believe that, through the internet, kids are exposed to too much info, and too much BS, and that, as a result, they are increasingly prone to distrust the government. This fact is supported by the large amount of 9/11 skeptics among the young. I see kids wearing anti-Bush T-shirts almost every day.

What we need is not more access to the young, but the opportunity to help then think critically. This forum was designed to help accomplish that purpose. Bugliosi's book may create a small bounce of WC apologists, but the JFK assassination does not pass the smell test of most Americans, and probably never will.

[Terry Mauro]

Charles D. & William

I only wish that the two of you are absolutely correct and that I will be seen as the "Village Idiot" !

But to me it sounds that I am hearing a locker room speech by a coach at halftime, who is doing his duty, even tho the opposing team is scoring with seemingly little opposition.

Damn the topedoes..full speed ahead !

Surrender hell...we have not yet begun to fight !

General Pickett, you have your orders !

Save your Confederate money boys....the South shall rise again !

Supportive rhetoric, I am afraid, will not win this battle.

The other team is seeking support of the "masses"!

Most of "us" do not think like the masses, and therefore are slow to appreciate the method.

These hundreds of millions want to believe in the "integrity of their Government"!

It is as if the "elders" of their Church and Community are sayng to them, "Your dearly departed Mother was a very saintly lady"......while I and some other "crazed hooligans", are telling them the truth, which was that their Mother, in fact, "...Was the Town Whore"!

If one carefully considers the audience being targeted, I regretably feel that our "opposition" is driving the nail home !

Meanwhile we continue to chase a landscape endlessly filled with windmills, with a faith in our righteous cause and bolstered with the "inner knowledge"...that "God is on OUR side".

It seems that most "losers" conclude that it was because God had abandoned them !

As I said...I sincerely hope that I am seeing with a very obscured perspective!

Charles Black

***********************************************************

While I deplore the deceitful tactics employed by Operation Mockingbird, as well as the success they've established in managing to manipulate the minds and pocket books of mainstream America, I will not be moved, nor swayed from my positional understanding with regard to the unwitting willingness with which the mass populace allows themselves to be lured into this false sense of security.

Is it because Mockingbird, with all its experimental subliminal suggestions via visual aids, has somehow succeeded in subjugating the mental acuity of the western cultures' populace to that of the level of a moron? What can be said for a large swath of the citizenry, whose intelligence quotients fail to add up to 80, whose sense of time and place, geographical, political, historical, bear little in the way of significance or importance to their "lifestyles" when challenged by i-pods, video games, hip-hop, fifth rate motion pictures of banal content, eight commercial TV channels which are, for the most part, merely vehicles used for airing advertisements of useless products via psycho-suggestive pictographics. And, let's not leave out the cable networks and their incessant knack for redundancy in their choice of subject matter, in particular, "Clear Channel."

The repetitive reinforcement of values that belie humane concern and involvement in anything other than what's happening in the lives of a Paris Hilton, Madonna, or Angelina Jolie, and their assorted escapades, especially the obsessive adoptive proclivities of Jolie, leave one to ponder what logic inspires someone to want to subject children to the unwarranted scrutiny of a celebrity's fishbowl existence. Wouldn't one's, not to mention one's childrens, best interests be served by bowing out of the spotlight altogether, when attempting to raise a child in a somewhat "normal" environment, especially a child of another race or culture unfamiliar with white-bread America?

As long as mainstream America [i.Q. 70 - 80] submits to, and continues to accept, this form of subliminal indoctrination as the status quo, the further this country, and its people will slip into the abyss of complacency and ignorance specifically designed for, marketed by, and targeted them, by the very machinations that produced and directed the coup d'etat. It's all about money, the bottom line, and pushing that eternal, infernal American Nightmare. You know the one I'm referring to, where everyone can be a king in their castle, just as long as they have a late model SUV, 50" Plasma Screen "Media" Station, cellphones in every color of the rainbow to match every pair of shoes, or underwear you possess, Nike Air-Jordans, a house in Bel Air, or a house, PERIOD, if they're ever able to afford one. JUST DO IT!!! As the sound-byte commands you to do.

My only weapon of defense against a dumbed-down populace is the written word based upon true facts and figures to support my thesis. I end up giving away more books to those whom I really wish to enlighten, those who can be entrusted to spread the word, to pass on those facts which are being censored or stone-walled by the major media giants and outlets, all of whom are infected with greed, avarice, and mendacity. They are the enemy, and I've seen their eyes. If KCET and KLCS persist in airing that film of Robert Stone's, they must must be implored to air a film of an alternate opinion from which to counter Robert Stone's vehicle. We must continue to counter the opposition. Any suggestions for an alternate film, preferably in the format of a documentary, would be appreciated, as I don't think TMWKK would be allowed to fly in the present climate.

In parting, may I suggest you get up off of your pity-potty and actively pursue getting your word out to the right people, spend your hard earned money on books to educate the children, who are definitely not getting a fair shake in the schools they're forced to attend, and expend your energies in countering any challenging op-eds in your local newspapers, when given the right topic to pique your interest, rather than risk slipping into a depressive state, or worse. At least, make yourself be heard. You never know who might be listening and may benefit from your knowledge on a subject.

Edited June 16, 2007 by Terry Mauro

[John Dolva]

I think Charles may have a point. The intellectual pursuits of today's average young person are watching "Jackass" on MTV, hanging out at the mall, talking on their cell phones, listening to mind deadening rap music and playing video games. They will hear somebody like Bugliosi pontificate about how there was no conspiracy to kill JFK and will believe it hook, line and sinker. Each new generation seems to get more and more intellectually lazy. A recent survey revealed that around seventy percent of the respondents didn't even know what year 9/11 happened on. I am hardly a Rhodes Scholar but this is absolutely uncalled for. I wonder how many High School seniors today don't even know the name of the alleged lone assassin of JFK. I am not kidding. This country is in a lot of trouble.

Brian, there are plenty who see it the other way. They believe that, through the internet, kids are exposed to too much info, and too much BS, and that, as a result, they are increasingly prone to distrust the government. This fact is supported by the large amount of 9/11 skeptics among the young. I see kids wearing anti-Bush T-shirts almost every day.

What we need is not more access to the young, but the opportunity to help then think critically. This forum was designed to help accomplish that purpose. Bugliosi's book may create a small bounce of WC apologists, but the JFK assassination does not pass the smell test of most Americans, and probably never will.

The world is in a lot of trouble.

The USA in relation to the rest of the world is immensely wealthy. But even within the USofA the disparity of wealth and opportunity is enormous.

As long as people 'feel' there are opportunities and that sense gratification is readily catered for, the opiate of the people, whether it be religion or ipods, there is a measure of control that the status quo relies on. Similarly, a significant portion 'feeling' that they have no power disarms them and playing in the various sandpits provided makes the day's go by with a measure of satisfaction. Still, what do these youth, as they congregate in what to the outsider may look like selfish ignorant persuits, really think and talk about?

Concurrently with all the 'dumbing down' is an increase in the contradictions that at some point must fracture. It is at this time that the human innate sense of justice, that all children are born with, can bring about positive changes.

This happened in the sixties. When the next wave comes, it is incumbent on those who know better to take a leading role, and if their rhetoric resonates with truth they naturally, quickly, displace the dis-informationists. Therein lies the absolute need by the status quo for covert disruption and divertion.

One lesson to be learnt from the sixties and part of the seventies is that there is a loss of innocence regarding the powers to be having the peoples interests at heart. It is possible to predict responses and act accordingly.

A proper, focused, preparedness, even by a courageous few can make all the difference. One should be aware that these people exist, and they will spring to prominence when the time comes.

In the meantime, the distortions and contradictions of the status quo continually plants the seeds of its own eventual destruction. It's a Law of Nature.

It is in this context that the books like Bugliosi's and the various TV programs should be viewed. Not as a sign of loss, but as a sign of desperation by those who will eventually lose.

Youth naturally question the 'wisdom' of their elders. When it no longer makes sense, or as in 'South Park': "I plead Chewbacca", a critical mass is reached and the means for rapid spread of word of mouth and now with the means of communication available that were then not available can be desicive.

The status quo is already preempting these events by shows of force, ie having a country at war, and all attendant local surveillance and rapid response teams, as well as controlling scholarships and education funding and flooding areas of discontent with drugs and other means of control like 'entertainment'. The mention of the Roman 'Circus' is apt.

However, basically, there are good people around in all levels of society who will, when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up. So, of course, the control mechanisms are often focused on them and their culture.

_________________________

The notion of 70-80 as an average IQ is an oxymoron. The average is 100. It always has been.

_________________________

War, if that is what one wishes to se it as, is a series of battles, back and forth. Defeatism is not the way. One may wait and regroup, take a breather, but that's all. What is happening is a crumbling of the status quo. That may disturb some and contribute to a sense of loss. However, it doesn't take much to see the glass as half full rather than half empty.

Country after country across the globe are throwing off the yokes of yesteryears and there is much to be optimistic about. However depending on optimism implies room for pessimism. Optimism sans 'workism' is pointless.

Traditionally leftists make good historians when they remember as Che' repeating advice in the beginning of his motorcycle diaries: (paraphrasing) all one has to do is describe the situation as it is, without embellishment.

The reader will naturally gravitate to a proper understanding. The pen IS mightier than the sword, it always has been. That's why the first on the agenda of totalitarian states (Engels: "The State is a body of armed men") is to censor. It's also why one of the first on the agenda of successful progressive revolutions, apart from redistribution of land and wealth (agrarian reform), is literacy.

In effect therein is the overweaning need to 'dumb down' the population of a society twisted by internal contradictions.

________________________________

of interest:

Thought Conceit - http://plusroot.com/dbook/12conceit.html

an interesting article discussing some of the forces at play

"...thought conceit still causes grave problems in three prominent areas. The first area is in a portion of people who have not enjoyed the benefits of a good education. The second area is in the mentally unstable. The third area is in select intellectual circles enamored with sophisticated radical ideologies. Radical ideologies encourage biased intrigues and, as these antagonistic procedures reinforce each other, they polarize society into angry factions where winning is first and truth of little count. Of the three, the gravest danger comes from preemptive dialectics promoted by negative oriented intellectuals".

[John Dolva]

I think Charles may have a point. The intellectual pursuits of today's average young person are watching "Jackass" on MTV, hanging out at the mall, talking on their cell phones, listening to mind deadening rap music and playing video games. They will hear somebody like Bugliosi pontificate about how there was no conspiracy to kill JFK and will believe it hook, line and sinker. Each new generation seems to get more and more intellectually lazy. A recent survey revealed that around seventy percent of the respondents didn't even know what year 9/11 happened on. I am hardly a Rhodes Scholar but this is absolutely uncalled for. I wonder how many High School seniors today don't even know the name of the alleged lone assassin of JFK. I am not kidding. This country is in a lot of trouble.

Brian, there are plenty who see it the other way. They believe that, through the internet, kids are exposed to too much info, and too much BS, and that, as a result, they are increasingly prone to distrust the government. This fact is supported by the large amount of 9/11 skeptics among the young. I see kids wearing anti-Bush T-shirts almost every day.

What we need is not more access to the young, but the opportunity to help then think critically. This forum was designed to help accomplish that purpose. Bugliosi's book may create a small bounce of WC apologists, but the JFK assassination does not pass the smell test of most Americans, and probably never will.

Well put IMO.

(my emphasis')

The World is in a lot of trouble.

The USA in relation to the rest of the world is immensely wealthy. But even within the USofA the disparity of wealth and opportunity is enormous.

As long as people 'feel' there are opportunities and that sense gratification is readily catered for, the opiate of the people, whether it be religion or ipods, there is a measure of control that the status quo relies on. Similarly, a significant portion 'feeling' that they have no power disarms them and playing in the various sandpits provided makes the day's go by with a measure of satisfaction. Still, what do these youth, as they congregate in what to the outsider may look like selfish ignorant persuits, really think and talk about?

Concurrently with all the 'dumbing down' is an increase in the contradictions that at some point must fracture. It is at this time that the human innate sense of justice, that all children are born with, can bring about positive changes.

This happened in the sixties. When the next wave comes, it is incumbent on those who know better to take a leading role, and if their rhetoric resonates with truth they naturally, quickly, displace the dis-informationists. Therein lies the absolute need by the status quo for covert disruption and divertion.

One lesson to be learnt from the sixties and part of the seventies is that there is a loss of innocence regarding the powers to be having the peoples interests at heart. It is possible to predict responses and act accordingly.

A proper, focused, preparedness, even by a courageous few can make all the difference. One should be aware that these people exist, and they will spring to prominence when the time comes.

In the meantime, the distortions and contradictions of the status quo continually plants the seeds of its own eventual destruction. It's a Law of Nature.

It is in this context that the books like Bugliosi's and the various TV programs should be viewed. Not as a sign of loss, but as a sign of desperation by those who will eventually lose.

Youth naturally question the 'wisdom' of their elders. When it no longer makes sense, or as in 'South Park': "I plead Chewbacca", a critical mass is reached and the means for rapid spread of word of mouth and now with the means of communication available that were then not available can be desicive.

The status quo is already preempting these events by shows of force, ie having a country at war, and all attendant local surveillance and rapid response teams, as well as controlling scholarships and education funding and flooding areas of discontent with drugs and other means of control like 'entertainment'. The mention of the Roman 'Circus' is apt.

However, basically, there are good people around in all levels of society who will, when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up. So, of course, the control mechanisms are often focused on them and their culture.

_________________________

The notion of 70-80 as an average IQ is an oxymoron. The average is 100. It always has been.

_________________________

War, if that is what one wishes to see it as, is a series of battles, back and forth. Defeatism is not the way. One may wait and regroup, take a breather, but that's all. What is happening is a crumbling of the status quo. That may disturb some and contribute to a sense of loss. However, it doesn't take much to see the glass as half full rather than half empty.

Country after country across the globe are throwing off the yokes of yesteryears and there is much to be optimistic about. However depending on optimism implies room for pessimism. Optimism sans 'workism' is pointless.

Traditionally leftists make good historians when they remember as Che' repeating advice in the beginning of his motorcycle diaries: (paraphrasing) all one has to do is describe the situation as it is, without embellishment. IOW locker room pep talks are superfluous in the final analysis.

The reader will naturally gravitate to a proper understanding. The pen IS mightier than the sword, it always has been. That's why the first on the agenda of totalitarian states (Engels: "The State is a body of armed men") is to censor. It's also why one of the first on the agenda of successful progressive revolutions, apart from redistribution of land and wealth (agrarian reform), is universal literacy.

In effect therein is the overweaning need to 'dumb down' the population of a society twisted by internal contradictions.

________________________________

of interest:

Thought Conceit - http://plusroot.com/dbook/12conceit.html

an interesting article discussing some of the forces at play

"...thought conceit still causes grave problems in three prominent areas. The first area is in a portion of people who have not enjoyed the benefits of a good education. The second area is in the mentally unstable. The third area is in select intellectual circles enamored with sophisticated radical ideologies. Radical ideologies encourage biased intrigues and, as these antagonistic procedures reinforce each other, they polarize society into angry factions where winning is first and truth of little count. Of the three, the gravest danger comes from preemptive dialectics promoted by negative oriented intellectuals".

Edited June 16, 2007 by John Dolva

[Terry Mauro]

I think Charles may have a point. The intellectual pursuits of today's average young person are watching "Jackass" on MTV, hanging out at the mall, talking on their cell phones, listening to mind deadening rap music and playing video games. They will hear somebody like Bugliosi pontificate about how there was no conspiracy to kill JFK and will believe it hook, line and sinker. Each new generation seems to get more and more intellectually lazy. A recent survey revealed that around seventy percent of the respondents didn't even know what year 9/11 happened on. I am hardly a Rhodes Scholar but this is absolutely uncalled for. I wonder how many High School seniors today don't even know the name of the alleged lone assassin of JFK. I am not kidding. This country is in a lot of trouble.

Brian, there are plenty who see it the other way. They believe that, through the internet, kids are exposed to too much info, and too much BS, and that, as a result, they are increasingly prone to distrust the government. This fact is supported by the large amount of 9/11 skeptics among the young. I see kids wearing anti-Bush T-shirts almost every day.

What we need is not more access to the young, but the opportunity to help then think critically. This forum was designed to help accomplish that purpose. Bugliosi's book may create a small bounce of WC apologists, but the JFK assassination does not pass the smell test of most Americans, and probably never will.

The world is in a lot of trouble.

The USA in relation to the rest of the world is immensely wealthy. But even within the USofA the disparity of wealth and opportunity is enormous.

As long as people 'feel' there are opportunities and that sense gratification is readily catered for, the opiate of the people, whether it be religion or ipods, there is a measure of control that the status quo relies on. Similarly, a significant portion 'feeling' that they have no power disarms them and playing in the various sandpits provided makes the day's go by with a measure of satisfaction. Still, what do these youth, as they congregate in what to the outsider may look like selfish ignorant persuits, really think and talk about?

Concurrently with all the 'dumbing down' is an increase in the contradictions that at some point must fracture. It is at this time that the human innate sense of justice, that all children are born with, can bring about positive changes.

This happened in the sixties. When the next wave comes, it is incumbent on those who know better to take a leading role, and if their rhetoric resonates with truth they naturally, quickly, displace the dis-informationists. Therein lies the absolute need by the status quo for covert disruption and divertion.

One lesson to be learnt from the sixties and part of the seventies is that there is a loss of innocence regarding the powers to be having the peoples interests at heart. It is possible to predict responses and act accordingly.

A proper, focused, preparedness, even by a courageous few can make all the difference. One should be aware that these people exist, and they will spring to prominence when the time comes.

In the meantime, the distortions and contradictions of the status quo continually plants the seeds of its own eventual destruction. It's a Law of Nature.

It is in this context that the books like Bugliosi's and the various TV programs should be viewed. Not as a sign of loss, but as a sign of desperation by those who will eventually lose.

Youth naturally question the 'wisdom' of their elders. When it no longer makes sense, or as in 'South Park': "I plead Chewbacca", a critical mass is reached and the means for rapid spread of word of mouth and now with the means of communication available that were then not available can be desicive.

The status quo is already preempting these events by shows of force, ie having a country at war, and all attendant local surveillance and rapid response teams, as well as controlling scholarships and education funding and flooding areas of discontent with drugs and other means of control like 'entertainment'. The mention of the Roman 'Circus' is apt.

However, basically, there are good people around in all levels of society who will, when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up. So, of course, the control mechanisms are often focused on them and their culture.

_________________________

The notion of 70-80 as an average IQ is an oxymoron. The average is 100. It always has been.

_________________________

War, if that is what one wishes to se it as, is a series of battles, back and forth. Defeatism is not the way. One may wait and regroup, take a breather, but that's all. What is happening is a crumbling of the status quo. That may disturb some and contribute to a sense of loss. However, it doesn't take much to see the glass as half full rather than half empty.

Country after country across the globe are throwing off the yokes of yesteryears and there is much to be optimistic about. However depending on optimism implies room for pessimism. Optimism sans 'workism' is pointless.

Traditionally leftists make good historians when they remember as Che' repeating advice in the beginning of his motorcycle diaries: (paraphrasing) all one has to do is describe the situation as it is, without embellishment.

The reader will naturally gravitate to a proper understanding. The pen IS mightier than the sword, it always has been. That's why the first on the agenda of totalitarian states (Engels: "The State is a body of armed men") is to censor. It's also why one of the first on the agenda of successful progressive revolutions, apart from redistribution of land and wealth (agrarian reform), is literacy.

In effect therein is the overweaning need to 'dumb down' the population of a society twisted by internal contradictions.

________________________________

of interest:

Thought Conceit - http://plusroot.com/dbook/12conceit.html

an interesting article discussing some of the forces at play

"...thought conceit still causes grave problems in three prominent areas. The first area is in a portion of people who have not enjoyed the benefits of a good education. The second area is in the mentally unstable. The third area is in select intellectual circles enamored with sophisticated radical ideologies. Radical ideologies encourage biased intrigues and, as these antagonistic procedures reinforce each other, they polarize society into angry factions where winning is first and truth of little count. Of the three, the gravest danger comes from preemptive dialectics promoted by negative oriented intellectuals".

*********************************************************

"However, basically, there are good people around in all levels of society who will, when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up. So, of course, the control mechanisms are often focused on them and their culture."

I wonder where they're at, right now, John. As it seems as if the only ones standing up are the ones here on this forum, and the other two forums I tend to frequent. When it comes to the average Joe Blow, or the proverbial "man-on-the-street," they either seem to consciously go out of their way to avoid any political discourse, or expressions of opinions on the subject matter, at all costs, or tend to parrot the rabid rights' "war on terrorism" manifesto, as a means of justifying the carnage going on in the Middle East. As long as it isn't affecting their ability to buy gas for their vehicles, as long as their jobs aren't being directly affected by anything now, or in the near future, they remain mute when asked for their thoughts, as if the mere idea might put a curse on their idyllic existence.

As you reiterated, "when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up."

Like with the loss of a job, or their livelihood being outsourced to a Third World Banana Republic. Then, and only then.

"The notion of 70-80 as an average IQ is an oxymoron. The average is 100. It always has been."

Is that right? Well, maybe in your neck of the woods, John. But, I'm speaking in terms of what I've observed here, in the United States, only. Do you dispute the fact that the schools of the U.S. are statistically far behind on the education scale, than say their counterparts in other areas of the globe?

"The reader will naturally gravitate to a proper understanding. The pen IS mightier than the sword, it always has been. That's why the first on the agenda of totalitarian states (Engels: "The State is a body of armed men") is to censor. It's also why one of the first on the agenda of successful progressive revolutions, apart from redistribution of land and wealth (agrarian reform), is literacy.

I should certainly hope so.

In effect therein is the overweaning need to 'dumb down' the population of a society twisted by internal contradictions."

Don't you mean, "overwhelming?"

"Twisted" is putting it mildly, to say the least.

"Thought Conceit - http://plusroot.com/dbook/12conceit.html

an interesting article discussing some of the forces at play

"...thought conceit still causes grave problems in three prominent areas. The first area is in a portion of people who have not enjoyed the benefits of a good education. The second area is in the mentally unstable. The third area is in select intellectual circles enamored with sophisticated radical ideologies. Radical ideologies encourage biased intrigues and, as these antagonistic procedures reinforce each other, they polarize society into angry factions where winning is first and truth of little count. Of the three, the gravest danger comes from preemptive dialectics promoted by negative oriented intellectuals"."

What, exactly, are you wishing to convey here, John? I've always admired your logical analysis of the situation, at hand. But, on this particular occasion, I'll have to admit, I'm stumped. Must be all that dumbing-down I suffered at the hands of those radical intellectuals I supported during the 1960's and the Vietnam War.

[John Dolva]

"However, basically, there are good people around in all levels of society who will, when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up. So, of course, the control mechanisms are often focused on them and their culture."

I wonder where they're at, right now, John. As it seems as if the only ones standing up are the ones here on this forum, and the other two forums I tend to frequent. When it comes to the average Joe Blow, or the proverbial "man-on-the-street," they either seem to consciously go out of their way to avoid any political discourse, or expressions of opinions on the subject matter, at all costs, or tend to parrot the rabid rights' "war on terrorism" manifesto, as a means of justifying the carnage going on in the Middle East. As long as it isn't affecting their ability to buy gas for their vehicles, as long as their jobs aren't being directly affected by anything now, or in the near future, they remain mute when asked for their thoughts, as if the mere idea might put a curse on their idyllic existence.

Well obviously the people on this forum is one group.

I suggest that the mute persons are so because the society is at the moment volatile. It is a sense of danger in speaking out when the prevailing dogma gives one a sense of isolation. The inference then is that the muteness is a necessary choice, not an expression of support for the radical right. These people are the ones that when the tide turns can unite and find strength in unity. At the same time there are people like RFK jr and others who deserve looking at. This is in the USofA. Globally there are others as well.

As you reiterated, "when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up."

Like with the loss of a job, or their livelihood being outsourced to a Third World Banana Republic. Then, and only then.

It already is in the works. This is one of the contradictions of a society with a massive deficit or a debt economy.

However the mass movements of the sixties had a significant moral element.

This is a prime motivator. However, with a society in an almost martial law situation where those who counter the prevailing dogma at the moment (which is why the radical right is comfortable in speaking out) risk isolation, naturally there is caution.

"The notion of 70-80 as an average IQ is an oxymoron. The average is 100. It always has been."

"Is that right? Well, maybe in your neck of the woods, John. But, I'm speaking in terms of what I've observed here, in the United States, only. Do you dispute the fact that the schools of the U.S. are statistically far behind on the education scale, than say their counterparts in other areas of the globe?"

Well, perhaps I'm too pedantic here. Strictly IQ and what one knows is not necessarily related. There are different IQ measurements, the most relevant being concerned with ways of using the mind to solve problems that have little to do with particular facts.

Probably there are schools in the US that teach a limited section of reality plus a reinforcement of traditions that may be hard to divest oneself of. Tertiary education, for those who are fortunate to partake in it, tend to be more likely to enter the realm of independent enquiry as opposed to rote learning. The article referred to deals with some of this.

"The reader will naturally gravitate to a proper understanding. The pen IS mightier than the sword, it always has been. That's why the first on the agenda of totalitarian states (Engels: "The State is a body of armed men") is to censor. It's also why one of the first on the agenda of successful progressive revolutions, apart from redistribution of land and wealth (agrarian reform), is literacy."

I should certainly hope so.

"In effect therein is the overweaning need to 'dumb down' the population of a society twisted by internal contradictions."

Don't you mean, "overwhelming?"

No, I did ponder the word to use, and it seems apt from my perspective. Overwhelming is probably also applicable, but it seems to me to imply the experience the victim has, rather than the motivation of the people in position to do the 'dumbing down'.

"Twisted" is putting it mildly, to say the least. yes

"Thought Conceit - http://plusroot.com/dbook/12conceit.html

an interesting article discussing some of the forces at play

"...thought conceit still causes grave problems in three prominent areas. The first area is in a portion of people who have not enjoyed the benefits of a good education. The second area is in the mentally unstable. The third area is in select intellectual circles enamored with sophisticated radical ideologies. Radical ideologies encourage biased intrigues and, as these antagonistic procedures reinforce each other, they polarize society into angry factions where winning is first and truth of little count*. Of the three, the gravest danger comes from preemptive dialectics promoted by negative oriented intellectuals"."

"What, exactly, are you wishing to convey here, John? I've always admired your logical analysis of the situation, at hand. But, on this particular occasion, I'll have to admit, I'm stumped. Must be all that dumbing-down I suffered at the hands of those radical intellectuals I supported during the 1960's and the Vietnam War."

OK, I agree, one needs to read the article and I don't claim anything except that it discusses the issues. I deliberately emphasised part of it*

'Radical' is also a right wing label. There is the 'radical right'. The segment of the article posted is correctly questioned by you, Terry, IMO.

IMO: Lenin, in various writings, including 'left wing communism, an infantile disorder' stresses the need for flexibility in thinking of ways to respond to whatever the particular situation is at any moment in any situation. "select intellectual circles enamored with sophisticated radical ideologies." can be inflexible and out of touch with the proletariat and through a series of predictable steps marginalise radicalism of the people by not responding to their need for education through experience but rather run ahead of the pack and consequently cause harm to an orderly progress by taking center stage and therefore characterising the opposition. To wit 'the Weathermen', as a splinter of the SDS. The Red Brigade in Italy. The Baader-Meinhof. The Symbionese Liberation Army. etc. Joe and Jane Doe becomes the spectator to a tragedy, that's all that happens. The lesson is wrong, while theoretically the ideology may have a basic correctness, the masses will never learn it. This IMO is a realm where the aims of the right wing are wittingly and unwittingly supported.

If radical elements, no matter how correct in a theoretical sense, preempt the natural progress of the proletariats educational process, they risk invoking responses by the powers to be that can readily get out of control and seemingly justified extreme oppression occur, and the proletariat naturally will recoil or 'freeze' in a vaccuum.

The point, IMO, is to drive the agenda with a close flexible association with the people where they happen to be at any moment in time.

For example: The Sandinistas won an armed struggle in Nicaragua in 1979 and then implemented a very progressive bill of rights and went into elections that were scrupulously followed by neutral observers. They won. This lay the ground work for Ortegas victory again this year. In the mean time the radical right contras under Reagan did their best to destroy this foundation. They ultimately, predictably IMO, failed. This was because the Sandinistas stayed close to the people and proceeded in a highly moral fashion that responded to the situation as it developed. First an all out war to victory, then a rapid shift to moderation. Reagans CIA thugs necessitated a defense that soaked up needed finances for free progress. However the fact that the Sandinistas did this while going ahead with progressive reform meant that they had the heart of the people.

EDIT:: Brian, I agree re Tague and I think it's proveable.

The masses pre-internet had means of communication that trancended borders. The merchant navy, for example, was very instrumental in spreading ideas. As well, the lessons of the Paris Commune are potentially easily implemented and understood and accessible when the time comes.

Edited June 17, 2007 by John Dolva

[Brian Smith]

I don't believe James Tague was hit by a fragment of the JFK head shot, nor do I believe he nicked himself shaving before going to Dealey Plaza that day. And I also don't believe that anyone (at least not a substantial percentage of the public) will naturally awaken from the lies they have had rammed down their throats, all their lives, by the lying mainstream news media. As long as a priveledged elite controls the modes of information, the masses will continue to be dumbed down. That is why Tony Blair is calling for the end of the internet in Great Britain. He says it is a threat to the powers that be. Damn right. I am reminded of that line from Stone's JFK - "..Individual human beings have to create justice, because the truth often poses a threat to power..." It is not in the best interests of the powers that be for the average person to be politically savvy. Hence, you have so many people not knowing on what year 9/11 happened.

Edited June 17, 2007 by Brian Smith

[Charles Black]

Terry, John..everyone

Terry, I agree to a great degree with nearly all that you have said, and I am led to believe, that whatever the exact IQ number....that number is far below that of the majority with whom we are accustomed to discussing both social or political issues. This was my primary point. Our discourse is not "aimed" and will only not just be misunderstood by theses masses, it will not reach them. I don't feel that I am on a "pitty pot"....as I feel that I am a true fighter. It wouldn't matter how many books that we might "give away".....the number that matters, is only the number of these books which would be read and "understood".

Those masses whom the media and the Bugliosi / Posners reach, are not those who are reading the inputs into our forums.

As far as Bugliosi's work......the significance is NOT the relatively few who care enough to read it !

The true significance is how the "talking heads" have the ability to even "further distort" his abortion of truth, and it is THEIR input from which the damage will be widespread.

I don't feel that this "great majority" with IQ's of 85 or 95, will themselves be spending the near $50.00 necessary to actually read the words of Bugliosi. This book, was meant to be, by THOSE who called for it and paid for it....to be merely "kindling".... to arouse the interest in the campaign which will follow and involve some of their "briliant Movie Stars". The press created "Private Lives" of these theater heroes and Godesses, many of whom are not of a higher intellectual level than their audience, is from where I predict the truly devastating damage to the "cause"..... which we here jointly and agressively pursue.

To me our cause is not dissimilar to the attempt to reason with persons who have, as a result of alcohol or other drugs, gone far beyond the boundaries of "sound reason".

Within "our lifetimes", there is not nearly the time required, or will there be an effort by those who "control power, to change this downslide.

This may be only My Personal Opinion....but I strongly feel that "those in control", who are the only ones with the "necessary means" to affect a change in this downward spiral (or flushing), are those WHO HAVE INITIATED IT !

It is not that I have or will "give up"....I will not...but I recognize my future efforts to likely be futile. We are similar to the "The Three Hundred Greeks"....valiant..unrelenting...willing to die for our cause....but without some unforseen reinforcements.....overpowered!

Effort, desire, and motivation, regardless of how valiant, will no doubt be overcome by

the ever increasing "irresistable force".

I do not hear "cavalry bugles", or see a swirl of oncoming friendly dust on the horizon.

To my thinking, being a realist is not a submission to defeat. It is only "realism"!

Charles Black

[Charles Drago]

The goals of the sponsors of Bugliosi, Posner, McAdam, Rahn, et al: protect and perpetuate.

Their battlefield of choice: History.

PROTECT the perpetrators by PERPETUATING not the lie, but the debate.

This is a most critical distinction. Endless debate of the "how" and "who" and "why" of the JFK assassination extends to other events and issues. It establishes a self-renewing ground rule for the investigations of all subsequent deep political actions: we'll never be able to know the truth.

Further, endless debate serves to factionalize the greater community of honorable researchers, thus fatally weakening our efforts and, in the final analysis, reinforcing minority control of the ... agenda.

And in the process, the bastards remain untouchable.

Thus the only strategy available to us is to live the truth: The debate is over. Conspiracy is truth. So every word we write and speak about this case must carry a tone of utter contempt for those who, knowing better, nonetheless would continue the "how" engagement on a collegial, level playing field.

In other words, we do NOT present proof as one side of an unsettled argument. Never again! Rather, we wield the truth as a weapon, and we do not miss an opportunity to bludgeon the LN's pimps by exposing them for exactly what they are.

There can be no "response" to Bugliosi. Just repudiation.

Or else his masters win.

Charles

[William O'Neil]

The goals of the sponsors of Bugliosi, Posner, McAdam, Rahn, et al: protect and perpetuate.

Their battlefield of choice: History.

PROTECT the perpetrators by PERPETUATING not the lie, but the debate.

This is a most critical distinction. Endless debate of the "how" and "who" and "why" of the JFK assassination extends to other events and issues. It establishes a self-renewing ground rule for the investigations of all subsequent deep political actions: we'll never be able to know the truth.

Further, endless debate serves to factionalize the greater community of honorable researchers, thus fatally weakening our efforts and, in the final analysis, reinforcing minority control of the ... agenda.

And in the process, the bastards remain untouchable.

Thus the only strategy available to us is to live the truth: The debate is over. Conspiracy is truth. So every word we write and speak about this case must carry a tone of utter contempt for those who, knowing better, nonetheless would continue the "how" engagement on a collegial, level playing field.

In other words, we do NOT present proof as one side of an unsettled argument. Never again! Rather, we wield the truth as a weapon, and we do not miss an opportunity to bludgeon the LN's pimps by exposing them for exactly what they are.

There can be no "response" to Bugliosi. Just repudiation.

Or else his masters win.

Charles

Charles, you are correct, and these books like Bug's and Posner's serve to legitimize the idea, that there is something valid to debate. That (IMO) is one of their strategic functions .

[Terry Mauro]

The goals of the sponsors of Bugliosi, Posner, McAdam, Rahn, et al: protect and perpetuate.

Their battlefield of choice: History.

PROTECT the perpetrators by PERPETUATING not the lie, but the debate.

This is a most critical distinction. Endless debate of the "how" and "who" and "why" of the JFK assassination extends to other events and issues. It establishes a self-renewing ground rule for the investigations of all subsequent deep political actions: we'll never be able to know the truth.

Further, endless debate serves to factionalize the greater community of honorable researchers, thus fatally weakening our efforts and, in the final analysis, reinforcing minority control of the ... agenda.

And in the process, the bastards remain untouchable.

Thus the only strategy available to us is to live the truth: The debate is over. Conspiracy is truth. So every word we write and speak about this case must carry a tone of utter contempt for those who, knowing better, nonetheless would continue the "how" engagement on a collegial, level playing field.

In other words, we do NOT present proof as one side of an unsettled argument. Never again! Rather, we wield the truth as a weapon, and we do not miss an opportunity to bludgeon the LN's pimps by exposing them for exactly what they are.

There can be no "response" to Bugliosi. Just repudiation.

Or else his masters win.

Charles

********************************************************

Thank you, John D. Thank you, Charlie B. Thank you, Charles D. And, this is truly coming from the bottom of my heart.

Sometimes I feel like that proverbial "Stranger In A Strange Land."

I do so welcome the logic and rational discourse you [all] have been so generous in sharing and imparting to the membership of this forum. I guess that's why I tend to cling to it, for what becomes increasingly more apparent to me, as a necessary antidote against what I perceive to be a sinister tyrannous death grip presently holding the United States, with its "rabid dog" supporters of war, hostage as the world once again comes close to spiraling dangerously out of control.

As we speak, the present fascistic administration infesting The White House is toying with the idea of resuming nuclear "above ground" testing. This information, coming on the heels of the last quarter of Talbot's book, which BTW, has reduced me to the level of tears on three separate occasions, so far.

Therefore, I will continue my sojourn in speaking the political truth to those whose paths will inevitably cross mine, those who'll inadvertently broach the subject, when they sense the beat of a different drum, as frequently happens in this line of work I refer to as my profession. Having been hired based upon many years of experience, but also for excellent communication skills, from what the Annual Employee Evaluation reveals. I will continue to pass on my books to those, whom I believe can be counted upon to carry the torch, spread the word. It is imperative for me to do so.

It is also the very least I can do in the way of educating those who want to learn.

You've given me renewed faith, for which I am eternally grateful.

Ter

[Kathleen Collins]

I don't believe James Tague was hit by a fragment of the JFK head shot, nor do I believe he nicked himself shaving before going to Dealey Plaza that day.

That is why Tony Blair is calling for the end of the internet in Great Britain. He says it is a threat to the powers that be. Damn right. I am reminded of that line from Stone's JFK - "..Individual human beings have to create justice, because the truth often poses a threat to power..." It is not in the best interests of the powers that be for the average person to be politically savvy. Hence, you have so many people not knowing on what year 9/11 happened.

That's one of the scariest things I've ever heard: Tony Blair trying to shut down the Internet in Great Britain. I hope his co-hort (W) doesn't get any ideas about doing that. I really think the people won't stand for it.

I was intrigued by your statement about James Tague. Then I realized you meant he was struck by another bullet aimed at President Kennedy, but missing. That is what you mean, right?

Kathy

[Sid Walker]

What's the real reason why those behind Posner, Bugliosi and the rest of them maintain an outpouring of anti-conspiracy proganda?

Aftera all, the slaying of JFK is just history - isn't it?

Why do they bother?

Surely the reason is that the murder is NOT just history. Some of the people who played a key role in the crime and its cover-up are in very powerful positions. The same kind of clandestine murders and acts of mass deception continue to be perpetrated.

That's why they bother. To keep Arlen out of the dock, probably Shimon too... and the rest. If they ever to give up the flow of SBT disinformation, the call for justice would be unimpeded. It would lock-on to some obvious prominet targets. Then the canaries would start to sing...

So, like Siphysus, the murderers, apologists and those who have inherited their ill-gotten power are forced to keep pushing the same gigantic boulder of bullxxxx to the top of the hill. It will always roll back. They - or the next round of paid liars - will then be forced to do it again.

Pathetic really. Sordid and evil. What a way to waste a brief spell on a wonderful planet.

[Myra Bronstein]

What's the real reason why those behind Posner, Bugliosi and the rest of them maintain an outpouring of anti-conspiracy proganda?

Aftera all, the slaying of JFK is just history - isn't it?

Why do they bother?

...

Well for one thing the truth would reveal that the US government has been illegitimate since 1963 since they took control in a murderous coup.

So everything that was said to the US public ever since, about our freedoms and our country's principles is a lie.

For another thing a lot of the same people who benefited from coup are in power now, for example the Bush klan.

Does that sorta answer your question?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

To believe for one moment that the illegitimate poisonous pushers of such storied cancerous lies have won, is nothing less than a retreat to the land of "headinthesand" Bugliosi and his paymasters have won nothing, whilst one Person continues to fight for the truth. all they have done, and that for a fleeting moment, is to sell yet another set of "horsefeathers" to the status obsessed masses, as Yeats observed "The center cannot hold" and this will not stand. Read Osymandius......