Bugliosi Has Won !

[Charles Black]

Hello Cliff

I accept your realization and willingness to start a new thread...BUT....we all realize that the damage to this thread is "irreparable". This is my complaint, and I feel a very valid and often made one.

I have a question that I can't simply make sense of ! Since the HSCA acnowledged, that in all probability, that there was a conspiracy and four shots were fired.......why not throw the clothing "non issue away"? ? The autopsist found no transiting bullet and, "their placement" of the shallow entrance wound to the back would allow "no possibility" of anterior throat bullet exit....and if furthermore the Parkland "experts" described the wound as most likely an entry puncture.....what is there to discuss?.....repeatedly for 43 years continue to discuss?

I, personally, am not a glutton for punishment!

Unless you are arguing "no conspiracy" and a "single gunman", what can you possibly gain for continuing a 43 year discussion of JFK's clothing?

Why not allow what should be, to most "conspiring minds", a dead issue....be buried ?

Why not attend to matters which are much more viable, still in question, and can lead the forum "forward", rather than stall it on this subject.

Even to those few of you who profess that JFK's early choking type reaction, resulted from a back shot, cannot possibly believe that it at that time exited the anterior throat.

Before testimony was changed, the experts at Parkland stated the anterior throat was an incoming puncture....there was no doubt "in the trauma room, on the afternoon of 11/22/63, regarding ths medical conclusion. The Bethesda autopsist found no tract of a transiting body wound !

Where exactly are you attempting to go with this discussion?

I don't feel that I can truly be quite this dense? What am I missing ?

Charles Black

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

General Bugliosi question: hope this is the right place.

I am currently reading the fascinating and very hard to put down Turner and Christian book on the Assassination of RFK. It sure does make you wonder why there is not more research into the RFK assassination. And why there have not been more books written recently. Larry Hancocks next book could really do well if it follows up on the unbelievably loose ends left hanging all these years.

Of all the loose ends, this character Jerry Owen is almost cartoon like. He and the wacky CIA hypnotist William J. Bryan are characters that seem like they have been boiling in a pot at the end of Gravity's Rainbow. The way they combine comical quirkyness with deep structural intrigue makes it stunning that so little has been written. Larry Hancock would seem to have open field running here, and I think for a surprisinglly large market, given that the last serious book was published in 1991.

Meanwhile, I cannot recommend the Turner and Christian book highly enough.

How does this relate to Bugliosi?

Well, to my surprise I learned that Bugliosi was a leading lawyer in the effort to show that there was a conspiracy in the RFK murder. Or at least it seems that way so far in the book.

Did Buliosi change his mind on the RFK assassination? If so when, and what were his reasons? Does he mention anything about his RFK work in his new book? Might his role as a "former believer" at least as far as the RFK assassination, have played a role in his publishing arrangement and publicity for his new book. I realize that Bugiosi was already famous for his Helter Skelter prosecutions. Just wondering if anyone knows anything about the history of his views on both the JFK and RFK assassinations.

[Cliff Varnell]

Hello Cliff

I accept your realization and willingness to start a new thread...BUT....we all realize that the damage to this thread is "irreparable".

I guess I'm lucky it isn't actionable.

This is my complaint, and I feel a very valid and often made one.

I have a question that I can't simply make sense of ! Since the HSCA acnowledged, that in all probability, that there was a conspiracy and four shots were fired.......why not throw the clothing "non issue away"? ? The autopsist found no transiting bullet and, "their placement" of the shallow entrance wound to the back would allow "no possibility" of anterior throat bullet exit....and if furthermore the Parkland "experts" described the wound as most likely an entry puncture.....what is there to discuss?.....repeatedly for 43 years continue to discuss?

I, personally, am not a glutton for punishment!

Unless you are arguing "no conspiracy" and a "single gunman", what can you possibly gain for continuing a 43 year discussion of JFK's clothing?

Why not allow what should be, to most "conspiring minds", a dead issue....be buried ?

Why not attend to matters which are much more viable, still in question, and can lead the forum "forward", rather than stall it on this subject.

Even to those few of you who profess that JFK's early choking type reaction, resulted from a back shot, cannot possibly believe that it at that time exited the anterior throat.

Before testimony was changed, the experts at Parkland stated the anterior throat was an incoming puncture....there was no doubt "in the trauma room, on the afternoon of 11/22/63, regarding ths medical conclusion. The Bethesda autopsist found no tract of a transiting body wound !

Where exactly are you attempting to go with this discussion?

I'm attacking the cover-up.

I regard it as my patriotic duty -- attacking the cover-up of the assassination

of John F. Kennedy.

And it's a lot of fun, as well.

Job #1 of the JFK assassination cover-up was to move the back wound

in the final autopsy report, and to move it again for the Warren Commission.

Jobv #1 in attacking the cover-up -- imo -- is stressing the historical,

well-corroborated fact that JFK was shot in the back about the level of

his third thoracic vertebra, as recorded in his verified Death Certificate.

This fact alone establishes at least 4 shots.

You, on the other hand, plump for the acoustics evidence and the

pre-Magic Bullet autopsy reporting.

Why rely on the highly technical discoveries of "experts" only to

have their findings challenged by other "experts"?

Why rely on reportings from an autopsy that were contradicted

by the final autopsy report?

Those are your "smoking guns," Charlie?

Promoting weak-ass compromised evidence DOES NOT move the

case forward, sir.

The simple fact of the matter is the holes in JFK's clothes

are too low to allow any possibility of a single shooter.

Occam's Razor.

Here's another way to relate to it -- a poem.

"A Fact Cannot Be Plagarized"

Jacket up on Main St.

as per Posner's SBT

http://video.jfk.org/George_Jefferies_film.wmv

Jacket down on Elm St.

four-plus shots, conspiracy

http://www.jfk-online.com/Towner.mpg

Try putting the acoustics evidence to rhyme, I dare ya!

[Cliff Varnell]

Hello Cliff

I accept your realization and willingness to start a new thread...BUT....we all realize that the damage to this thread is "irreparable".

I guess I'm lucky it isn't actionable.

This is my complaint, and I feel a very valid and often made one.

I have a question that I can't simply make sense of ! Since the HSCA acnowledged, that in all probability, that there was a conspiracy and four shots were fired.......why not throw the clothing "non issue away"? ? The autopsist found no transiting bullet and, "their placement" of the shallow entrance wound to the back would allow "no possibility" of anterior throat bullet exit....and if furthermore the Parkland "experts" described the wound as most likely an entry puncture.....what is there to discuss?.....repeatedly for 43 years continue to discuss?

I, personally, am not a glutton for punishment!

Unless you are arguing "no conspiracy" and a "single gunman", what can you possibly gain for continuing a 43 year discussion of JFK's clothing?

Why not allow what should be, to most "conspiring minds", a dead issue....be buried ?

Why not attend to matters which are much more viable, still in question, and can lead the forum "forward", rather than stall it on this subject.

Even to those few of you who profess that JFK's early choking type reaction, resulted from a back shot, cannot possibly believe that it at that time exited the anterior throat.

Before testimony was changed, the experts at Parkland stated the anterior throat was an incoming puncture....there was no doubt "in the trauma room, on the afternoon of 11/22/63, regarding ths medical conclusion. The Bethesda autopsist found no tract of a transiting body wound !

Where exactly are you attempting to go with this discussion?

I'm attacking the cover-up.

I regard it as my patriotic duty -- attacking the cover-up of the assassination

of John F. Kennedy.

And it's a lot of fun, as well.

Job #1 of the JFK assassination cover-up was to move the back wound

in the final autopsy report, and to move it again for the Warren Commission.

Jobv #1 in attacking the cover-up -- imo -- is stressing the historical,

well-corroborated fact that JFK was shot in the back about the level of

his third thoracic vertebra, as recorded in his verified Death Certificate.

This fact alone establishes at least 4 shots.

You, on the other hand, plump for the acoustics evidence and the

pre-Magic Bullet autopsy reporting.

Why rely on the highly technical discoveries of "experts" only to

have their findings challenged by other "experts"?

Why rely on reportings from an autopsy that were contradicted

by the final autopsy report?

Those are your "smoking guns," Charlie?

Promoting weak-ass compromised evidence DOES NOT move the

case forward, sir.

The simple fact of the matter is the holes in JFK's clothes

are too low to allow any possibility of a single shooter.

Occam's Razor.

Here's another way to relate to it -- a poem.

"A Fact Cannot Be Plagarized"

Jacket up on Main St.

as per Posner's SBT

http://video.jfk.org/George_Jefferies_film.wmv

Jacket down on Elm St.

four-plus shots, conspiracy

http://www.jfk-online.com/Towner.mpg

Try putting the acoustics evidence to rhyme, I dare ya!

[Pat Speer]

Cliff said:

"We have well-meaning people, like Charlie and Mark and Pat Speer, demoting

or denigrating the most powerful, irrefutable evidence in the case."

Cliff, you know this isn't true. I have a section on the clothes in the Single-Bullet Theory chapter at patspeer.com. I use the clothes to show that the SBT is highly unlikely. One would think this would make you happy. But no, you want me to be intellectually dishonest and say the back wound was at T3, when the measurements, face sheet, and autopsy photo tell me it was at T1. I've added lines onto the Boswell's Anatomy section of chapter 10 at patspeer.com. These show that the face sheet is a reasonably accurate depiction of the wound measured at autopsy.

[Charles Black]

Cliff

I thought the point that I was attempting to make is that "The Body" is/was the "best evidece".

To those who do not discount the veracity of appx. 40 Dealey Plaza eye witnesses, the original "expert" reporting of the Parkland Team, and many who viewed the autopsy (and some who participated in it): I place these inputs far above whether, or whether not, the clothing bunched. There is enough evidence which is "pro conspiracy fact" to have PROVEN what occurred, even had JFK been NAKED !

Why, when most accept my preceeding acknowledgements, is there any reason to further discuss the clothing. I personally don't give a damned whether or not "the clothing bunched". Bunched or not.....it does not alter the ACTUAL WOUNDS !

This is like trying to prove that there were ten shots fired.....proof of four does the job ! Why insist on "overkill".

If there are those who insist on re-discussing the long worn out clothing argument....I do not argue this apparent right.

My complaint is that possible new and valid discussions are neutralized by the subject being "deliberately changed".

YES ! Begin "a" new topic on clothing.... or 100 clothing topics if you are so driven, and you feel that you are adding something other than what has been generally accepted.

My argument is not with the clothing...but the "clothing" based "misdirection" of the original topic.

What is it about my immediately prior statements that do you not understand ?

Charles Black

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In the event that Mr. Bugliosi has actually won, then it is a direct result of one of the following:

1. To a large extent, opposing forces have been firing (BS) Blanks.

2. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo (factual data), they quite obviously did not know how to load it.

3. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo and knew how to load it, they either did not know how to take the safety off, or else did not know which end of the gun to point.

4. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo, knew how to load it and properly utilize the gun, they did not know exactly what to take a shot at.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With what frequently causes an eruption of reminiscent laughter, I am reminded of those "firefights" with hard core Regular NVA forces in which each side was armed with "real" bullets.

We had long prior learned that the NVA leadership gave it's command signals through the blowing of whistles.

Thus, an important element of our battlefield strategy consisted of utilization of captured (as well as write home and get sent to one) whistles.

Certain (not too competent in battle) persons/privates, were thereafter delegated merely the task of hiding and blowing their "whistle" when a firefight ensued.

To the NVA, this caused absolute confusion!

Some would be attacking; some would be retreating; and some would be surrendering at the same point in the battle.

Others merely stood around totally confused!

So, even if one has "real bullets", the (whistle blowing) confusion and misdirection which has been generated in searching for "body snatchers" and multiple assassins, has created a battlefield in which the CT forces are so confused that, for the most part, they do not know what to fire at, and have thus defeated themselves.

"For those who fail to learn from it, history has a way of repeating itself"

Whether in the Jungles of South Vietnam, or in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, TX.

[William O'Neil]

In the event that Mr. Bugliosi has actually won, then it is a direct result of one of the following:

1. To a large extent, opposing forces have been firing (BS) Blanks.

2. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo (factual data), they quite obviously did not know how to load it.

3. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo and knew how to load it, they either did not know how to take the safety off, or else did not know which end of the gun to point.

4. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo, knew how to load it and properly utilize the gun, they did not know exactly what to take a shot at.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With what frequently causes an eruption of reminiscent laughter, I am reminded of those "firefights" with hard core Regular NVA forces in which each side was armed with "real" bullets.

We had long prior learned that the NVA leadership gave it's command signals through the blowing of whistles.

Thus, an important element of our battlefield strategy consisted of utilization of captured (as well as write home and get sent to one) whistles.

Certain (not too competent in battle) persons/privates, were thereafter delegated merely the task of hiding and blowing their "whistle" when a firefight ensued.

To the NVA, this caused absolute confusion!

Some would be attacking; some would be retreating; and some would be surrendering at the same point in the battle.

Others merely stood around totally confused!

So, even if one has "real bullets", the (whistle blowing) confusion and misdirection which has been generated in searching for "body snatchers" and multiple assassins, has created a battlefield in which the CT forces are so confused that, for the most part, they do not know what to fire at, and have thus defeated themselves.

"For those who fail to learn from it, history has a way of repeating itself"

Whether in the Jungles of South Vietnam, or in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, TX.

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country.......

[Charles Drago]

It's option two.

Most don't even realize there's a war on.

While we disagree on much of substance, Mr. Purvis (snatchers and shooter, for example), I think it is safe to say that we share an understanding of the appropriateness of such bellicose metamphors as those you herein utilize.

Bugliosi and his masters enjoy temporary and pyrrhic victory only.

Edited June 23, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In the event that Mr. Bugliosi has actually won, then it is a direct result of one of the following:

1. To a large extent, opposing forces have been firing (BS) Blanks.

2. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo (factual data), they quite obviously did not know how to load it.

3. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo and knew how to load it, they either did not know how to take the safety off, or else did not know which end of the gun to point.

4. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo, knew how to load it and properly utilize the gun, they did not know exactly what to take a shot at.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With what frequently causes an eruption of reminiscent laughter, I am reminded of those "firefights" with hard core Regular NVA forces in which each side was armed with "real" bullets.

We had long prior learned that the NVA leadership gave it's command signals through the blowing of whistles.

Thus, an important element of our battlefield strategy consisted of utilization of captured (as well as write home and get sent to one) whistles.

Certain (not too competent in battle) persons/privates, were thereafter delegated merely the task of hiding and blowing their "whistle" when a firefight ensued.

To the NVA, this caused absolute confusion!

Some would be attacking; some would be retreating; and some would be surrendering at the same point in the battle.

Others merely stood around totally confused!

So, even if one has "real bullets", the (whistle blowing) confusion and misdirection which has been generated in searching for "body snatchers" and multiple assassins, has created a battlefield in which the CT forces are so confused that, for the most part, they do not know what to fire at, and have thus defeated themselves.

"For those who fail to learn from it, history has a way of repeating itself"

Whether in the Jungles of South Vietnam, or in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, TX.

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country.......

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country

Even more sad is the fact that the "Enemy" (WC/Posner/Bugliosi/Government Personnel) has merely given the CT Community the whistles, taken a seat on the sideline, and thereafter watched them confuse themselves in the attack.

One can only imagine:

1. Over here, I see him behind the tree!

2. No he is not, I saw him down in the manhole.

3. You are all wrong, he was on top of the Dal-Tex Bldg.

4. All of you must be seeing things, he can clearly be observed:

a. Behind the Stockade fence.

b. On top of the overpass.

c. Hiding in the SS Followup vehicle.

d. Fill in the blank:-___________________

Perhaps one is correct when they claim that Bugliosi has won!

Not unlike in a boxing match, I would suppose that if one punches himself in the face and knocks himself out, the opponenet still wins, even if he is merely standing around and watching.

[William O'Neil]

In the event that Mr. Bugliosi has actually won, then it is a direct result of one of the following:

1. To a large extent, opposing forces have been firing (BS) Blanks.

2. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo (factual data), they quite obviously did not know how to load it.

3. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo and knew how to load it, they either did not know how to take the safety off, or else did not know which end of the gun to point.

4. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo, knew how to load it and properly utilize the gun, they did not know exactly what to take a shot at.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With what frequently causes an eruption of reminiscent laughter, I am reminded of those "firefights" with hard core Regular NVA forces in which each side was armed with "real" bullets.

We had long prior learned that the NVA leadership gave it's command signals through the blowing of whistles.

Thus, an important element of our battlefield strategy consisted of utilization of captured (as well as write home and get sent to one) whistles.

Certain (not too competent in battle) persons/privates, were thereafter delegated merely the task of hiding and blowing their "whistle" when a firefight ensued.

To the NVA, this caused absolute confusion!

Some would be attacking; some would be retreating; and some would be surrendering at the same point in the battle.

Others merely stood around totally confused!

So, even if one has "real bullets", the (whistle blowing) confusion and misdirection which has been generated in searching for "body snatchers" and multiple assassins, has created a battlefield in which the CT forces are so confused that, for the most part, they do not know what to fire at, and have thus defeated themselves.

"For those who fail to learn from it, history has a way of repeating itself"

Whether in the Jungles of South Vietnam, or in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, TX.

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country.......

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country

Even more sad is the fact that the "Enemy" (WC/Posner/Bugliosi/Government Personnel) has merely given the CT Community the whistles, taken a seat on the sideline, and thereafter watched them confuse themselves in the attack.

One can only imagine:

1. Over here, I see him behind the tree!

2. No he is not, I saw him down in the manhole.

3. You are all wrong, he was on top of the Dal-Tex Bldg.

4. All of you must be seeing things, he can clearly be observed:

a. Behind the Stockade fence.

b. On top of the overpass.

c. Hiding in the SS Followup vehicle.

d. Fill in the blank:-___________________

Perhaps one is correct when they claim that Bugliosi has won!

Not unlike in a boxing match, I would suppose that if one punches himself in the face and knocks himself out, the opponenet still wins, even if he is merely standing around and watching.

Ah yes, I'm often reminded of that Mad Magazine comic strip Spy vs Spy....or, perhaps even Road Runner vs Wiley Coyote. The Gods must chuckle...and the beat goes on. Who really wins in the end ?

[Terry Mauro]

In the event that Mr. Bugliosi has actually won, then it is a direct result of one of the following:

1. To a large extent, opposing forces have been firing (BS) Blanks.

2. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo (factual data), they quite obviously did not know how to load it.

3. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo and knew how to load it, they either did not know how to take the safety off, or else did not know which end of the gun to point.

4. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo, knew how to load it and properly utilize the gun, they did not know exactly what to take a shot at.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With what frequently causes an eruption of reminiscent laughter, I am reminded of those "firefights" with hard core Regular NVA forces in which each side was armed with "real" bullets.

We had long prior learned that the NVA leadership gave it's command signals through the blowing of whistles.

Thus, an important element of our battlefield strategy consisted of utilization of captured (as well as write home and get sent to one) whistles.

Certain (not too competent in battle) persons/privates, were thereafter delegated merely the task of hiding and blowing their "whistle" when a firefight ensued.

To the NVA, this caused absolute confusion!

Some would be attacking; some would be retreating; and some would be surrendering at the same point in the battle.

Others merely stood around totally confused!

So, even if one has "real bullets", the (whistle blowing) confusion and misdirection which has been generated in searching for "body snatchers" and multiple assassins, has created a battlefield in which the CT forces are so confused that, for the most part, they do not know what to fire at, and have thus defeated themselves.

"For those who fail to learn from it, history has a way of repeating itself"

Whether in the Jungles of South Vietnam, or in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, TX.

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country.......

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country

Even more sad is the fact that the "Enemy" (WC/Posner/Bugliosi/Government Personnel) has merely given the CT Community the whistles, taken a seat on the sideline, and thereafter watched them confuse themselves in the attack.

One can only imagine:

1. Over here, I see him behind the tree!

2. No he is not, I saw him down in the manhole.

3. You are all wrong, he was on top of the Dal-Tex Bldg.

4. All of you must be seeing things, he can clearly be observed:

a. Behind the Stockade fence.

b. On top of the overpass.

c. Hiding in the SS Followup vehicle.

d. Fill in the blank:-___________________

Perhaps one is correct when they claim that Bugliosi has won!

Not unlike in a boxing match, I would suppose that if one punches himself in the face and knocks himself out, the opponenet still wins, even if he is merely standing around and watching.

*********************************************************

Excellent propositions, and excellent analogies, Purv.

What was that old adage the rabid right used to feed us when trying to persuade us of Red China's designs on dismantling Western democracy, "Divide and Conquer?" Supposedly, this was a form of propaganda devised to get the idea across that if we didn't stick together and fight the Iron Curtain, they would surely divide us up into little factions, and conquer us all, should we not cleave to each other to form an allied opposition.

Well, at one time that may have all been well and good in the way of arousing patriotic zeal by invoking fear into the hearts and minds of the plebes. But what about those who would not be easily moved to follow such blind ambition and opportunism?

On the other hand, and later on in the 20th Century, specifically toward the last two decades, when the James Clavell series came out and was made into one of those TV movie epics, Noble House, I believe it was. If one took it upon themselves to read his series starting with Shogun I and II, TaiPei, King Rat, Noble House I and II, one might get a completely different view of the Asian mindset than the one presented in the 1950's and the 1960's via Mockingbird's propaganda mill. Fast forward to the present day, and Sterling Seagrave's Gold Warriors. A completely different perspective from that which was intentionally foisted upon America in the 1950's.

Why? Because the reality of the fact was not in the "Divide and Conquer," sloganeering of the Cold War years. The Asian philosophy was more on par with, "Don't get mad, get even." Therein lies the rub. The joke was on the dumb Americans. The Asian philosophical outlook was far more superior to the oafish brute force attitude of the Western World.

Can we not gain a modicum of insight from the experience and recognize the propaganda being perpetrated on all of us, for over half a century? Add that to the fact that it still remains based upon the skewed and stilted philosophy of our dead and/or soon-to-be-dead former cold warriors, who continue to employ the exact same tactics in response to what they may perceive to be any successful form of on-going JFK research being carried out that doesn't tend to agree with or endorse the Warren Commission Lie.

"Divide," "Confuse," and "Conquer." We lose if we continue to refuse to be united in a cohesive, organized front. We will continually play into their hands and into their game, each and every time we take pot-shots at one another. This is one of the main reasons why Bugliosi can get away with labeling our efforts as "the work done by kooks."

I'm personally sick of being labeled a CT, or worse yet, a "buff." For crying out loud, we're either in this together, or we're out of it. Those who continue to harass, confound, attempt to harangue, or verbally assault those writers, authors, and men of letters here, for what appears to be the sheer pleasure they seemingly derive from their acts of belligerence, should remain "suspect" as to their real intentions. This point has become excruciatingly apparent since the outset of Bugliosi's book, and has been driven home in his scathing portrayal of the research community, and the utter contempt he holds for it.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In the event that Mr. Bugliosi has actually won, then it is a direct result of one of the following:

1. To a large extent, opposing forces have been firing (BS) Blanks.

2. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo (factual data), they quite obviously did not know how to load it.

3. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo and knew how to load it, they either did not know how to take the safety off, or else did not know which end of the gun to point.

4. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo, knew how to load it and properly utilize the gun, they did not know exactly what to take a shot at.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With what frequently causes an eruption of reminiscent laughter, I am reminded of those "firefights" with hard core Regular NVA forces in which each side was armed with "real" bullets.

We had long prior learned that the NVA leadership gave it's command signals through the blowing of whistles.

Thus, an important element of our battlefield strategy consisted of utilization of captured (as well as write home and get sent to one) whistles.

Certain (not too competent in battle) persons/privates, were thereafter delegated merely the task of hiding and blowing their "whistle" when a firefight ensued.

To the NVA, this caused absolute confusion!

Some would be attacking; some would be retreating; and some would be surrendering at the same point in the battle.

Others merely stood around totally confused!

So, even if one has "real bullets", the (whistle blowing) confusion and misdirection which has been generated in searching for "body snatchers" and multiple assassins, has created a battlefield in which the CT forces are so confused that, for the most part, they do not know what to fire at, and have thus defeated themselves.

"For those who fail to learn from it, history has a way of repeating itself"

Whether in the Jungles of South Vietnam, or in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, TX.

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country.......

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country

Even more sad is the fact that the "Enemy" (WC/Posner/Bugliosi/Government Personnel) has merely given the CT Community the whistles, taken a seat on the sideline, and thereafter watched them confuse themselves in the attack.

One can only imagine:

1. Over here, I see him behind the tree!

2. No he is not, I saw him down in the manhole.

3. You are all wrong, he was on top of the Dal-Tex Bldg.

4. All of you must be seeing things, he can clearly be observed:

a. Behind the Stockade fence.

b. On top of the overpass.

c. Hiding in the SS Followup vehicle.

d. Fill in the blank:-___________________

Perhaps one is correct when they claim that Bugliosi has won!

Not unlike in a boxing match, I would suppose that if one punches himself in the face and knocks himself out, the opponenet still wins, even if he is merely standing around and watching.

*********************************************************

Excellent propositions, and excellent analogies, Purv.

What was that old adage the rabid right used to feed us when trying to persuade us of Red China's designs on dismantling Western democracy, "Divide and Conquer?" Supposedly, this was a form of propaganda devised to get the idea across that if we didn't stick together and fight the Iron Curtain, they would surely divide us up into little factions, and conquer us all, should we not cleave to each other to form an allied opposition.

Well, at one time that may have all been well and good in the way of arousing patriotic zeal by invoking fear into the hearts and minds of the plebes. But what about those who would not be easily moved to follow such blind ambition and opportunism?

On the other hand, and later on in the 20th Century, specifically toward the last two decades, when the James Clavell series came out and was made into one of those TV movie epics, Noble House, I believe it was. If one took it upon themselves to read his series starting with Shogun I and II, TaiPei, King Rat, Noble House I and II, one might get a completely different view of the Asian mindset than the one presented in the 1950's and the 1960's via Mockingbird's propaganda mill. Fast forward to the present day, and Sterling Seagrave's Gold Warriors. A completely different perspective from that which was intentionally foisted upon America in the 1950's.

Why? Because the reality of the fact was not in the "Divide and Conquer," sloganeering of the Cold War years. The Asian philosophy was more on par with, "Don't get mad, get even." Therein lies the rub. The joke was on the dumb Americans. The Asian philosophical outlook was far more superior to the oafish brute force attitude of the Western World.

Can we not gain a modicum of insight from the experience and recognize the propaganda being perpetrated on all of us, for over half a century? Add that to the fact that it still remains based upon the skewed and stilted philosophy of our dead and/or soon-to-be-dead former cold warriors, who continue to employ the exact same tactics in response to what they may perceive to be any successful form of on-going JFK research being carried out that doesn't tend to agree with or endorse the Warren Commission Lie.

"Divide," "Confuse," and "Conquer." We lose if we continue to refuse to be united in a cohesive, organized front. We will continually play into their hands and into their game, each and every time we take pot-shots at one another. This is one of the main reasons why Bugliosi can get away with labeling our efforts as "the work done by kooks."

I'm personally sick of being labeled a CT, or worse yet, a "buff." For crying out loud, we're either in this together, or we're out of it. Those who continue to harass, confound, attempt to harangue, or verbally assault those writers, authors, and men of letters here, for what appears to be the sheer pleasure they seemingly derive from their acts of belligerence, should remain "suspect" as to their real intentions. This point has become excruciatingly apparent since the outset of Bugliosi's book, and has been driven home in his scathing portrayal of the research community, and the utter contempt he holds for it.

Just perhaps I am incorrect, however!

1. If someone clearly provides altered evidence, as well as the somewhat "sneaky" manner in which it was admitted into evidence, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands.

2. If someone clearly provides the multitudes of witness testimony which clearly demonstrate that Z313 WAS NOT the final shot fired in the shooting sequence, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands.

3. If someone clearly demonstrates the completely phony nature of the WC assassination re-enactment, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands.

(vehicle speed/adjusted position/z-frame# alteration)

4. If someone clearly demonstrates that the US Secret Service, as well as the FBI, were clearly aware of the impact point of the third/last/final shot fired, begining in December 1963, yet the WC could not for whatever reason figure this out, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands.

There have been many "false prophets" who claimed that they were going to lead to the promised land.

Some have followed the pathway of the "body snatcher" and wound alteration philosophy guru

Some have followed the pathway of the "multiple assassin" (take your pick as to which location) philosophy guru.

None of which pathways, that I am aware of, has actually lead to where it claimed it was going to take one too.

And, which in reality merely carried one deeper into the labrinth of the lost.

FACTUAL evidence will destroy Bugliosi, as well as the WC 40+ year old lie to the world.

False prophets will not!

Tom

P.S. Terry;

A significant element of any successful battle strategy is the inclusion of those elements which, when implemented, create confusion; misdirection; miscommunication; and dissention among the opposing forces.

And in that regards, one should take a close look at "The Enemy Within"!

However, winning a battle or two does not constitute having won the war.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In the event that Mr. Bugliosi has actually won, then it is a direct result of one of the following:

1. To a large extent, opposing forces have been firing (BS) Blanks.

2. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo (factual data), they quite obviously did not know how to load it.

3. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo and knew how to load it, they either did not know how to take the safety off, or else did not know which end of the gun to point.

4. In event the opposing force actually had live ammo, knew how to load it and properly utilize the gun, they did not know exactly what to take a shot at.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With what frequently causes an eruption of reminiscent laughter, I am reminded of those "firefights" with hard core Regular NVA forces in which each side was armed with "real" bullets.

We had long prior learned that the NVA leadership gave it's command signals through the blowing of whistles.

Thus, an important element of our battlefield strategy consisted of utilization of captured (as well as write home and get sent to one) whistles.

Certain (not too competent in battle) persons/privates, were thereafter delegated merely the task of hiding and blowing their "whistle" when a firefight ensued.

To the NVA, this caused absolute confusion!

Some would be attacking; some would be retreating; and some would be surrendering at the same point in the battle.

Others merely stood around totally confused!

So, even if one has "real bullets", the (whistle blowing) confusion and misdirection which has been generated in searching for "body snatchers" and multiple assassins, has created a battlefield in which the CT forces are so confused that, for the most part, they do not know what to fire at, and have thus defeated themselves.

"For those who fail to learn from it, history has a way of repeating itself"

Whether in the Jungles of South Vietnam, or in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, TX.

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country.......

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country

Even more sad is the fact that the "Enemy" (WC/Posner/Bugliosi/Government Personnel) has merely given the CT Community the whistles, taken a seat on the sideline, and thereafter watched them confuse themselves in the attack.

One can only imagine:

1. Over here, I see him behind the tree!

2. No he is not, I saw him down in the manhole.

3. You are all wrong, he was on top of the Dal-Tex Bldg.

4. All of you must be seeing things, he can clearly be observed:

a. Behind the Stockade fence.

b. On top of the overpass.

c. Hiding in the SS Followup vehicle.

d. Fill in the blank:-___________________

Perhaps one is correct when they claim that Bugliosi has won!

Not unlike in a boxing match, I would suppose that if one punches himself in the face and knocks himself out, the opponenet still wins, even if he is merely standing around and watching.

*********************************************************

Excellent propositions, and excellent analogies, Purv.

What was that old adage the rabid right used to feed us when trying to persuade us of Red China's designs on dismantling Western democracy, "Divide and Conquer?" Supposedly, this was a form of propaganda devised to get the idea across that if we didn't stick together and fight the Iron Curtain, they would surely divide us up into little factions, and conquer us all, should we not cleave to each other to form an allied opposition.

Well, at one time that may have all been well and good in the way of arousing patriotic zeal by invoking fear into the hearts and minds of the plebes. But what about those who would not be easily moved to follow such blind ambition and opportunism?

On the other hand, and later on in the 20th Century, specifically toward the last two decades, when the James Clavell series came out and was made into one of those TV movie epics, Noble House, I believe it was. If one took it upon themselves to read his series starting with Shogun I and II, TaiPei, King Rat, Noble House I and II, one might get a completely different view of the Asian mindset than the one presented in the 1950's and the 1960's via Mockingbird's propaganda mill. Fast forward to the present day, and Sterling Seagrave's Gold Warriors. A completely different perspective from that which was intentionally foisted upon America in the 1950's.

Why? Because the reality of the fact was not in the "Divide and Conquer," sloganeering of the Cold War years. The Asian philosophy was more on par with, "Don't get mad, get even." Therein lies the rub. The joke was on the dumb Americans. The Asian philosophical outlook was far more superior to the oafish brute force attitude of the Western World.

Can we not gain a modicum of insight from the experience and recognize the propaganda being perpetrated on all of us, for over half a century? Add that to the fact that it still remains based upon the skewed and stilted philosophy of our dead and/or soon-to-be-dead former cold warriors, who continue to employ the exact same tactics in response to what they may perceive to be any successful form of on-going JFK research being carried out that doesn't tend to agree with or endorse the Warren Commission Lie.

"Divide," "Confuse," and "Conquer." We lose if we continue to refuse to be united in a cohesive, organized front. We will continually play into their hands and into their game, each and every time we take pot-shots at one another. This is one of the main reasons why Bugliosi can get away with labeling our efforts as "the work done by kooks."

I'm personally sick of being labeled a CT, or worse yet, a "buff." For crying out loud, we're either in this together, or we're out of it. Those who continue to harass, confound, attempt to harangue, or verbally assault those writers, authors, and men of letters here, for what appears to be the sheer pleasure they seemingly derive from their acts of belligerence, should remain "suspect" as to their real intentions. This point has become excruciatingly apparent since the outset of Bugliosi's book, and has been driven home in his scathing portrayal of the research community, and the utter contempt he holds for it.

Just perhaps I am incorrect, however!

1. If someone clearly provides altered evidence, as well as the somewhat "sneaky" manner in which it was admitted into evidence, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands.

2. If someone clearly provides the multitudes of witness testimony which clearly demonstrate that Z313 WAS NOT the final shot fired in the shooting sequence, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands.

3. If someone clearly demonstrates the completely phony nature of the WC assassination re-enactment, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands.

(vehicle speed/adjusted position/z-frame# alteration)

4. If someone clearly demonstrates that the US Secret Service, as well as the FBI, were clearly aware of the impact point of the third/last/final shot fired, begining in December 1963, yet the WC could not for whatever reason figure this out, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands.

There have been many "false prophets" who claimed that they were going to lead to the promised land.

Some have followed the pathway of the "body snatcher" and wound alteration philosophy guru

Some have followed the pathway of the "multiple assassin" (take your pick as to which location) philosophy guru.

None of which pathways, that I am aware of, has actually lead to where it claimed it was going to take one too.

And, which in reality merely carried one deeper into the labrinth of the lost.

FACTUAL evidence will destroy Bugliosi, as well as the WC 40+ year old lie to the world.

False prophets will not!

Tom

P.S. Terry;

A significant element of any successful battle strategy is the inclusion of those elements which, when implemented, create confusion; misdirection; miscommunication; and dissention among the opposing forces.

And in that regards, one should take a close look at "The Enemy Within"!

However, winning a battle or two does not constitute having won the war.

Reboot!

[Charles Black]

Confuse...Divide....Conquer

has been accepted and successfully practiced since before actual recorded history ! It is used, not only in battle, but in competitive sports, politics, courtrooms, advertising, as well as among competing business ventures.

Division in the "research community" should be expected; as it should in any community of bright and free thinking individuals of much more than modest intellect. God Bless freedom of thought and expression. My feeling, bottomline, is this freedom of thought is what led many years ago, to this case, for all practical purposes having been long solved. Anyone serious in this study for a number of years, KNOWS the important answers!

In general terms, I feel that most realize, regardless of what "pawns" or "mechanics" were used and regardless of what their names were, or where they were individually located at 12:30 CST, Nov.22, 1963.....and regardless of the multitude of enemies opposing the Kennedy's.... Most realize that this had absolutely to be the planning, organization, and ensuing cover up which only could have been undertaken by the highest elements within the U.S. Government and its agencies. Perhaps elements were used, but neither organized crime nor anti or pro Castro cubans were "required". They were not "required" but have been successfully set up and used by those within the power stucture as red herrings.

These Red Herrings have confused ! The result of this confusion has been "Division"!

However the final step...Conquest....has not followed. "Intellectually sound thought" cannot be confused, supressed or conquered.

In my opinion...YES, Bugliosi won..."the immediate battle only"... as he has no doubt further confused the less informed. But in my study of his 1600 plus pages of W.C. Report rewrite, he has IN NO WAY added antything that those knowledgeable of the associated "facts" could find confusing or devisive. We have all heard 43 years of B.S. from some pretty lofty and profound sources, and this little former prosecutor, who somewhat stubled into fame, has only reorganized it into a "higher pile".

He was paid a lot of money to "re shovel" a mighty big heap of BS! He has been no more, in the true context of JFK study, than a "BS Reorganizer".

Conquest can never take place by sources such as are represented by Bugliosi, because the truth is and has been known for some time. They Lost!

But I would be greatly surprised if in the lifetimes of we on this forum, that there will be any court hearing or a different acknowledgement from our establishmentarian historians, of the actual events of that twenty second of November.

Tho the truth may "set some free"....in this circumstance, it has "the potential" to cause much more harm than will its, in my particular thinking, "BURIAL"! The truth would be acknowledged by whom that are still alive.....who have access to more than hearsay?

Would our current decline in world opinion stature

be re elevated ? Would there be a violent revolution?

Without a complete reorganization of our political structure, is a change in administration, however sorely needed, going to replace what was lost as a result of 11/22/63? What would truly "insure that it could not happen again"? A Nazi type SS? Hell, Hitler was nearly assassinated on several ocassions, so that would not appear either to be the answer.

I personally don't care WHO were the trigger pullers, where they were hidden, or what happened to them. They are long gone implements ...tools... with no personalities or feelings.

There was a Coup d' Etat formulated, conducted and covered up, by the exact sources and forces that we have long been aware of. There is no mystery involving the combined motivations, the planning or the cover up!

I never expect ADMISSION of this! I do expect my being further accused of being a defeatist ! I feel however, that I am a truly patriotic "realist". "Reality" is aligned with neither "victory" nor "defeat" (which at times are difficult to differentiate or define).

Charles Black