On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Guest Gary Loughran]

Posted on behalf of Miles Scull, who has been experiencing some difficulties - unfortunately the formatting didn't copy!!

If I had looked a little closer, I would of realised that RAM does not make it to the wall before he goes out of shot in Nix.

He's not even close, sorry.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/B...gman/NixRAM.gif

Alan,

Right you are!

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Hudson is saying that "young fellow" stood next to him from the time the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm until the second shot.

But the man standing next to Hudson in Moorman ran away in seconds after the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Hudson is saying that after the man ran up the stairs the "young fellow" (RSM), who had stood with him since the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, told him to lie down.

This means that the photographic evidence does not agree or comport with Hudson's testimony. It contradicts Hudson.

Miller's explanation for this is that Hudson became confused & imagined that, when the the man ran up the stairs & was replaced by RSM,... that RSM was the man who ran away & had been by him all the while. One man became another man in Hudson's mind: a doppelgänger.

Miller is saying, therefore, that Hudson had a very powerful hallucination.

Very good. This renders Hudson unreliable & not credible & so vitiates Hudson's testimony as valid.

This appalling development was noticed by Ken, who realized that the only remotely plausible scenario was that "run-away-man" dashed to safety behind the retaining wall & then comically shouted in a huge, stentorian voice instructions to Hudson.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time,

Hudson means the "young fellow" who had sat with him & stood with him during the period of time that Husdon is recalling, which period of time Hudson calls the "present time," SAYS to him at the time of the third shot: "Lay down."

Hudson uses the verb "SAYS," not shouts not yells not screams. This clearly means that the person who says to Hudson "Lay down, lay down'' is a person who is close enough to Hudson to be heard in the din of the passing motorcade by means of a volume level & loudness of tone which is below that of someone yelling or shouting.

The only person who could SAY this was RSM.

he says,

Hudson uses the verb: says.

"lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President."

Hudson's use of the word "Mister" is significant. Why? Would the man who had run up the stairs (to allegedly lie down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall) have looked to see Hudson & RSM, practically in one another's arms, and have called out to them: "Lay down, Mister?'' Why warn only one to lie down & not the other?

But, if RSM was saying this, then, of course, since he was addressing only one man as the other had run away, he would naturally say to Hudson: "Lay down, Mister (singular)."

He says,

Again, Hudson uses SAYS,

"Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down."

Hudson says that the "young man" kept repeating "Lay down." Hudson indicates that length of time passes while this repeating goes on. During this time Hudson receives these warnings. Hudson explains that he then does something for certain reasons. What are these reasons? First Hudson explains that the "young man is already lying ONE WAYon the sidewalk.

so

So. Hudson uses this conjunction "so" to indicate connection & causation. (He did this, so I did this.)

he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk,

Hudson explains.

so

So. Hudson uses this conjunction "so" to indicate connection & causation. (He did this, so I did this.)

I just laid down over on the ground

Hudson is saying that the reason he lay on the GROUND was because the "young fellow" had already laid down on the sidewalk ONE WAY and there was NO ROOM there for Hudson to lie down THERE. Hudson explains that he had to lie down on the ground, he had no other choice.

Hudson is trying to explain his actions & movements so that it is clear to LIEBELER why he, Hudson, could apprehend & judge the origin & direction of the third shot. He is answering the question put to him by LIEBELER, and, since Hudson grasps the great importance of the question, Hudson is attempting to be as clear as he can be.

and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

So, a close study of Hudson's exact words leads to the conclusion that Hudson meant that RSM warned him to "lay down."

The possibility that "run-away-man" so warned Hudson is eliminated. QED

Edited November 3, 2007 by Gary Loughran
Trying to recreate Miles' formatting

[Miles Scull]

Posted on behalf of Miles Scull, who has been experiencing some difficulties - unfortunately the formatting didn't copy!!

Thanks, Gary.

[Chris Davidson]

Something still stinks.

RSM starts running up the steps past Hudson who hasn't moved an inch from Muchmore thru Nix.

Sure, I'll (RSM) keep running up the steps following RAM, and you (Hudson) lie down.

When supposedly was Hudson told to lie down, as RSM man passes Hudson on the stairs, with his back to him.

Why wouldn't RSM just lie down where he's at ?

Anyone see Hudson's white shirt in Nix?

Bernice, thank you for the Hudson FBI statement.

If I'm on the stairs and I think a shot comes from behind and above, I would tend to think the stockade fence.

Yet, what I read in Hudson's statement is all about the Depository.

Much the same as Zapruder.

Arm twisting!!!

chris

[Bill Miller]

Hudson is saying that "young fellow" stood next to him from the time the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm until the second shot.

But the man standing next to Hudson in Moorman ran away in seconds after the second shot.

Gary,

Hudson thought the (kill shot) was the second shot. Read his testimony again and you should see this to be the case. That means that at least one of the shots out of as many as four according to the HSCA didn't register with Hudson. Thus the running man fled after the head shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

The original Nix film had the sprocket holes in it, thus we are not seeing all the information that the original film had to offer.

About the only thing Hudson was mistaken on was who was telling him to get down because Hudson was most likely in shock and had his mind on tracking the limo. The frames in the clip below are from the Zapruder film and the come after Hudson went off camera on the existing Nix film. Hudson is focused on the limo as it races away and this would have been during the time he was being told to get down by the man closest to him IMO.

For those interested in knowing where the limo is in these few Zapruder frames, then go to post #597 and look at the overhead photo in that post. Draw a line from the step where Hudson stood to the lamp post on the south knoll and you will see how far after the limo passed the steps that Hudson was still tracking the car and not looking to see who is to the left of him. For all we know, Emmett could have kept tracking the limo right into the underpass while the red shirted man was telling him to get down.

Edited November 3, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Guest Gary Loughran]

Hudson is saying that "young fellow" stood next to him from the time the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm until the second shot.

But the man standing next to Hudson in Moorman ran away in seconds after the second shot.

Gary,

Hi Bill,

If you look at the post you'll see I was posting on behalf of Miles, who is experiencing difficulty at the moment. Hopefully this will be sorted shortly and may be as a result of my inexperience with approving moderated posts.

No harm done though

Cheers

Gary

[Alan Healy]

Something still stinks.

........

Much the same as Zapruder.

Arm twisting!!!

chris

I totally agree Chris.

My personal favourite is Hargis who apparently ran to the wall so he could get a better view of the overpass & while he was doing so scanned the TSBD where he thought the shots came from.

Regarding RSM's movement,

to me it looks like he's been influenced by the other man's reaction, so without thinking(safety first) he too runs the same way then, most likely, as he has time to think & comes beside Hudson(maybe) pauses. You see him look back towards the limo, so that's obviously more interesting to him than fleeing.

It is possible he was just a freindly young man & was concerned for Hudsons safety too & Emmett's lack of reaction may of produced the fellow to point out to the old guy just what was occuring.

As for Hudson's white shirt, it looks brown to me in Nix, whatever the true colour of it, it's obviously not as "white" as his bright cap & pants which are seen clearly.

[Alan Healy]

For those interested in knowing where the limo is in these few Zapruder frames, then go to post #597 and look at the overhead photo in that post. Draw a line from the step where Hudson stood to the lamp post on the south knoll and you will see how far after the limo passed the steps that Hudson was still tracking the car and not looking to see who is to the left of him. For all we know, Emmett could have kept tracking the limo right into the underpass while the red shirted man was telling him to get down.

[atachment=13152:L___Huds...ead_turn.gif]

There is no way of knowing which way Hudson is looking in those Zapruder frames is there?

The position of his body in the last frames he is seen in Nix, suggests to me that he is not tracking the limo at all in Zapruder but instead is actually turning his head towards the the camera which would be in line with where his body was facing.

As I now look at it closer, I can actually see the front of his cap turning towards the camera.

[Ashton Gray]

I'm reminded of a limerick that I believe I once heard in my misspent yout':

There once was a huckster named Miller;

a lunatic sniper-well driller.

In Dealey, they say,

he drills hundreds each day—

but he still hasn't found one damned killer!

Ah, well. I've since heard that "sniper-wells" are also called "rabbit-holes," and lord knows I don't want to interfere for a moment with the masterful rabbit-hole charting that is being done here by many of you fine scholarly fellows. I think it is a noble pursuit, and I'm sure that wascally wabbit is just around the next bend.

Meanwhile, I just wanted to mention one little insignificant detail here in passing—now that this massive snipe® hunt has reached 54 forum pages and sucked over 15,000 souls down into the oblivion of 15,000 sniper-wells.

Here is a very good approximation of what Bowers saw from his perch high up in his little tower:

I covered this months ago. The two men Bowers saw near the overpass are the same two men who had been working on and around the grassy knoll earlier that morning, with their truck pulled up on the curb of Elm, then had moved their truck (very likely up into the TSBD parking lot) and taken up a position down by the overpass—where there only happened to have been two cops stationed all morning, plus a railroad crew working on the overpass—to watch the festivities.

Very mysterious. Oo.

Now, I know that images from this 3D model drive one bold-faced poster in this forum into screeching, heel-kicking fits, because the images from the model regularly expose what a fraud his nonsense is. But I've twit-filed this particular poster in the appropriate file, so, regrettably, I'm going to miss the spittle-flecked bold-face fit that this surely will elicit.

Please resume the rabbit-hole charting.

Ashton

[Bernice Moore]

Something still stinks.

........

Much the same as Zapruder.

Arm twisting!!!

chris

I totally agree Chris.

My personal favourite is Hargis who apparently ran to the wall so he could get a better view of the overpass & while he was doing so scanned the TSBD where he thought the shots came from.

Regarding RSM's movement,

to me it looks like he's been influenced by the other man's reaction, so without thinking(safety first) he too runs the same way then, most likely, as he has time to think & comes beside Hudson(maybe) pauses. You see him look back towards the limo, so that's obviously more interesting to him than fleeing.

It is possible he was just a freindly young man & was concerned for Hudsons safety too & Emmett's lack of reaction may of produced the fellow to point out to the old guy just what was occuring.

As for Hudson's white shirt, it looks brown to me in Nix, whatever the true colour of it, it's obviously not as "white" as his bright cap & pants which are seen clearly.

*****************

Aw yes, and add to that Zapruder who says he got off the pedestal, and walked straight back to the office, hollaring out all the way "They killed him"....whose first FBI report stated as well as in the WC 3 times, the shots came from behind him, to his right......

and then there is Dear Marilyn, who at first recall was that the shot came from behind her, who says to her Doc that she was left standing on the pedestal all alone, and Mr Z was gone.......then descending from said pedestal, ran down the knoll ( in high heels no less, not falling ) to the other

side of Elm and talked to two gentlemen she thought perhaps were FBI, then back across said street to talk to another, then walked back to the office , scared, as they were following her, who never mentioned two black people sitting on the bench until she was interviewed by Josiah a few years later, but who then not only mentioned at first that they threw down both their bottles ( plural) breaking them, and so loudly that the noise was louder than any of the shots, but then who some time later, oops, reversed her story, sorry, that it was only one coke bottle.....

But in the meantime she may have been Peggy Burney who worked for Zapruder in the office, who stated to her first cousin Vivian Castleberry who worked for the newspaper,who wrote her story up, which ended up on the editing room floor, to Peggy's story becoming a short brief mention on a back page a couple of days later...in said paper.......Who stated that it was, she, Peggy who was with Zapruder, and holding his camera supplies whatever......while seeing the President killed..

and of course there are the Hester's who stated they were on both the south side and the north side of Elm together, at the same time, while watching the President be murdered.....and then there is Ike Altgens who filmed from the other side of Elm, facing towards the pedestal area.....who also mentioned people and DPD officers, around, behind the wall, near the pedestal area, the same as Hudson did......though he did not mention any police, but that the people up in that area also, had cameras and were taking pictures.....but then Ike of course, later lost his memory, and forgot his comments...which though is on tape...for posterity's sake..........

But pay no attention to me Allan....just pondering a wee bit.....please just ignore....your and Chris' comments got me carried away there for a second.... ...

What I really came for was to post this crop for you, from Muchmore where I believe you can see both Hudson and RSM......ta....

B..

Edited November 4, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Bill Miller]

Something still stinks.

RSM starts running up the steps past Hudson who hasn't moved an inch from Muchmore thru Nix.

Sure, I'll (RSM) keep running up the steps following RAM, and you (Hudson) lie down.

When supposedly was Hudson told to lie down, as RSM man passes Hudson on the stairs, with his back to him.

Why wouldn't RSM just lie down where he's at ?

What is the need to make things more difficult than they have to be? Could not the red shirted man just want to get back from the street so a stray bullet didn't come slamming into his head. With him leaning over as he goes off screen with Hudson - does it not somewhat support what Hudson said and that all the red shirted man did was move off the landing and into the grass as Hudson obviously did. Yeah, that's right, Hudson too moved off the steps and into the grass just west of it - why??? I still say that it was to leave the steps clear for anyone needing to move up them for what ever reason.

Bill

[Miles Scull]

Something still stinks.

........

Much the same as Zapruder.

Arm twisting!!!

chris

I totally agree Chris.

My personal favourite is Hargis who apparently ran to the wall so he could get a better view of the overpass & while he was doing so scanned the TSBD where he thought the shots came from.

Regarding RSM's movement,

to me it looks like he's been influenced by the other man's reaction, so without thinking(safety first) he too runs the same way then, most likely, as he has time to think & comes beside Hudson(maybe) pauses. You see him look back towards the limo, so that's obviously more interesting to him than fleeing.

It is possible he was just a freindly young man & was concerned for Hudsons safety too & Emmett's lack of reaction may of produced the fellow to point out to the old guy just what was occuring.

As for Hudson's white shirt, it looks brown to me in Nix, whatever the true colour of it, it's obviously not as "white" as his bright cap & pants which are seen clearly.

What I really came for was to post this crop for you, from Muchmore where I believe you can see both Hudson and RSM......ta....

B..

B, is that crop from Bell?

OK

Regarding RSM's movement,

to me it looks like he's been influenced by the other man's reaction, so without thinking(safety first) he too runs the same way then, most likely, as he has time to think & comes beside Hudson(maybe) pauses. You see him look back towards the limo, so that's obviously more interesting to him than fleeing.

It is possible he was just a freindly young man & was concerned for Hudsons safety too & Emmett's lack of reaction may of produced the fellow to point out to the old guy just what was occuring.

This seems reasonable.

After all Red Shirt Man did not continue dashing up the steps for safety.

Why?

He did stop at near Hudson.

Why?

[Miles Scull]

Something still stinks.

RSM starts running up the steps past Hudson who hasn't moved an inch from Muchmore thru Nix.

Sure, I'll (RSM) keep running up the steps following RAM, and you (Hudson) lie down.

When supposedly was Hudson told to lie down, as RSM man passes Hudson on the stairs, with his back to him.

Why wouldn't RSM just lie down where he's at ?

What is the need to make things more difficult than they have to be? Could not the red shirted man just want to get back from the street so a stray bullet didn't come slamming into his head. With him leaning over as he goes off screen with Hudson - does it not somewhat support what Hudson said and that all the red shirted man did was move off the landing and into the grass as Hudson obviously did. Yeah, that's right, Hudson too moved off the steps and into the grass just west of it - why??? I still say that it was to leave the steps clear for anyone needing to move up them for what ever reason.

Bill

Good point.

RSM figured out that if he stayed on the steps he would be trampled to death.

Rather than being shot to death.

That is why he moved to the grass, rather than staying on the stairs.

That explains it.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

There is no way of knowing which way Hudson is looking in those Zapruder frames is there?

The position of his body in the last frames he is seen in Nix, suggests to me that he is not tracking the limo at all in Zapruder but instead is actually turning his head towards the the camera which would be in line with where his body was facing.

As I now look at it closer, I can actually see the front of his cap turning towards the camera.

You are the first person who has ever said this, Alan. When Hudson goes off camera in the Nix film ... his body is still turned away and he his looking over his shoulder. In the Zframes he can either turn his head extremely far much like an owl or he has now turned his body so to be facing the limo. As far as which way his head is turning - it looks to me to be tracking the limo by turning from east to west (left to right) in perfect timing with the advancement of the limo.

Bill

Edited November 4, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

There is no way of knowing which way Hudson is looking in those Zapruder frames is there?

The position of his body in the last frames he is seen in Nix, suggests to me that he is not tracking the limo at all in Zapruder but instead is actually turning his head towards the the camera which would be in line with where his body was facing.

As I now look at it closer, I can actually see the front of his cap turning towards the camera.

You are the first person who has ever said this, Alan. When Hudson goes off camera in the Nix film ... his body is still turned away and he his looking over his shoulder. In the Zframes he can either turn his head extremely far much like an owl or he has now turned his body so to be facing the limo. As far as which way his head is turning - it looks to me to be tracking the limo by turning from east to west (left to right) in perfect timing with the advancement of the limo.

Bill

Oh oh

[Bill Miller]

Good point.

RSM figured out that if he stayed on the steps he would be trampled to death.

Rather than being shot to death.

That is why he moved to the grass, rather than staying on the stairs.

That explains it.

You the man, Miles ... great stuff!!! You by chance haven't grown a beard since that picture of you was taken - have you? I ask because I recently watched an old episode of the Andy Griffith Show where 'Goober' grew a beard and all of a sudden he thought of himself as "The Thinker". Although come to think of it - Goober seemed to have put more thought into his remarks before speaking than what you often do.

But seriously, the red shirted man started moving as the limo was nearing him and as the man is turning around and watching the limo by the time he reaches Hudson - has the limo not already passed the base of the steps and is speeding away with a mortally wounded President laying inside.

And is there not a saying that there is safety in numbers. You don't think with the limo speeding away that he and Hudson was afraid while sitting on the steps or grass that a team of executioners was going to come out there and shoot all the witnesses to the assassination do you? I don't believe that for a moment any more than Bill Newman only tossed his boy on the ground north of the sidewalk because he thought he'd lay there and wait to be shot to death. Or that the people who ran towards the area where they thought the shots had come from were worried about being shot to death.

Bill Miller