Fry him for that Coke!

[Mark Knight]

I grew up in a town about 20 miles west of New Albany, so it sounds like you and I were neighbors once upon a time.

But I've always had trouble with the fact that no one aside from Howard Brennan can place Oswald on the sixth floor of the TSBD at the time of the shooting...and then Brennab reteacted his ID of LHO, then changed his mind again. IMHO, there is more evidence to place LHO elsewhere in the building than there is that places him on the sixth floor with a rifle in his hands at that critical moment. Even police chief Curry stated that they could not positively place that man in that window with that rifle at that fateful moment, and Curry was TRYING to come up with evidence to convict Oswald.

So I think the coke/Coke incident points more towards Oswald's innocence...IMHO.

[Duke Lane]

... I likewise think that it has been long and often debated whether or not LHO could have done the things that were attributed to him given the time constraints that he had, which were at the time unknown to him. That is was possible was proven, in my opinion, by Mack and Perry in Unsolved History, even while I object to the program's use of a fitness buff to portray the hurrying Oswald (or the crack shot to portray the shooter Oswald).

What is true, however, is that Oswald didn't know he'd have any time constraint: he had no idea he'd encounter Baker until he encountered Baker, and thus couldn't have known he'd have to rush down the stairs so quickly and cover his tracks by being in the lunch room, coke-in-hand or not.

What intrigues me more than the arguments about whether LHO could've done what he's purported to have done or not is that nobody seems to consider the actions of anyone else who didn't apparently have any such constraints, and managed - if his actions were deliberate or at someone else's direction - to work around them quite admirably ... to the extent that not even today, much less back then, nobody considers anyone in the building other than Oswald to be a possible perpetrator.

Nor do they seem to have worked out how someone - other than Oswald - could have abetted the shooters' escape (presuming there to be more than one, and none of them Oswald). Yet information to support this possibility has been before us for more than 40 years. That would be an interesting debate! Maybe someday, I'll start it ....

The shooter/decoy was allowed to escape by Roy Truly. It was the person encountered by Baker on the third - or more likely - fourth floor as per his affidavit. Baker never encountered Oswald an any floor. There are a number of extremely enlightening threads relating to this currently on the Lancer forum, and I have previously discussed the issue here.

I suspect the 40+ information you refer to is not Baker's affidavit -- however, your ideas are always interesting, so I hope you do start that debate.

How could I resist? See Sixth Floor Candidates: If not Oswald, then who?.

[Greg Parker]

I've always wondered why Truly was there to intervene for Oswald, why Truly was allowed to be with Baker in the first place. Why would a cop, with his revolver drawn and looking for an assassin or assassins, let a civilian tag along with him?

This cop surely knew how to climb stairs without Truly's assistance. He could also see rooms and wouldn't need an endangered civilian along to tell him "there's this room here" and "there's this room over there." While at any moment there could a fusillade of bullets.

Seems to me that either Baker was an irresponsible cop or something was going on.

Ron, I've wondered the same thing. In studying everything I can find on the alleged Truly/Baker/Oswald encounter, I have come to believe Baker was doing his job - albeit irresponsibly - by allowing a civilian to accompany him. I also believe his affidavit of 22/11 is factual. Later, however, he would agree to fall into line with the official story.

The real question for me is, why would Truly risk his life - especially as Ron points out - a guide should have been obviously unnecessary to negotiate stairs and spot the rooms? One answer is that he knew he was not risking his life. He was making sure Baker didn't nab the wrong (ie the right!) guy - a dark haired 30 yo wearing a gray or lt brown jacket and weighing about 165.

The Dr Pepper machine on the first floor apparently had "other drinks like orange and root beer" in it, but the Coke machine in the second floor lunch room "only had Coca-Cola in it." It was "rare" that the worker-guys would go to the second floor to get a Coke, VB gets Frazier to say, because "we had our own machine on the first floor, where we ate our lunch. It was more convenient to use the machine on the first floor" (my emphasis), Frazier explained. Yet, convenient or not, Frazier occasionally felt like having a Coke instead of a Dr Pepper, and thus - if that occurred at work - he himself had to go to the second floor lunch room to get one (Frazier did not say that the Dr Pepper machine had other drinks in it "like Coca-Cola" too!).

Duke, had Bugliosi cared to read some testimony, he'd have found it wasn't so rare an occurrence.

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

Mr. BALL - What did you do when you quit for lunch?

Mr. JARMAN - Went in the rest room and washed up.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you

Mr. JARMAN - Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop.

Mr. BALL - Where is the lounge?

Mr. JARMAN - On the second floor.

Mr. BALL - On the second floor?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?

Mr. JARMAN - Came back and went down to the window.

And finally... Frazier himself...

Mr. BALL -

When you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch room on the second floor to eat your lunch

?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; most of the time I don't. Most of the time you see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit there.

I say we usually go up there to get something to drink

and I say I have ate up there several times but most of the times I eat with the guys I work with.

Author Jim Bishop, in his book The Day Kennedy Was Shot, writes (without a citation, however) that Oswald "invariably drank Dr. Pepper. And we know that Marina told her biographer, Priscilla McMillan, that when he was working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall in Dallas in 1963, "after supper" he would walk down the street as he often did "to buy a newspaper and a bottle of Dr. Pepper.

There you go. Marina clearly, in her discussions with Miss Prissy, called a Dr Pepper a Dr Pepper. There is therefore, no basis to claim that elsewhere she may be referring to a Dr Pepper when she says "Coke".

This whole thing with Bugliosi seems to boil down to Bishop's uncited reference, and Marina's remark about him going for Dr Pepper occasionally. Yet he leaves out her reference to him drinking Coke at other times. Go figure.

[Duke Lane]

... In studying everything I can find on the alleged Truly/Baker/Oswald encounter, I have come to believe Baker was doing his job - albeit irresponsibly - by allowing a civilian to accompany him. I also believe his affidavit of 22/11 is factual. Later, however, he would agree to fall into line with the official story.

The real question for me is, why would Truly risk his life - especially as Ron points out - a guide should have been obviously unnecessary to negotiate stairs and spot the rooms? One answer is that he knew he was not risking his life. He was making sure Baker didn't nab the wrong (ie the right!) guy - a dark haired 30 yo wearing a gray or lt brown jacket and weighing about 165.

Ah, so, grasshopp-ah! To this we shall surely return!

The Dr Pepper machine on the first floor apparently had "other drinks like orange and root beer" in it, but the Coke machine in the second floor lunch room "only had Coca-Cola in it." It was "rare" that the worker-guys would go to the second floor to get a Coke, VB gets Frazier to say, because "we had our own machine on the first floor, where we ate our lunch. It was more convenient to use the machine on the first floor" (my emphasis), Frazier explained. Yet, convenient or not, Frazier occasionally felt like having a Coke instead of a Dr Pepper, and thus - if that occurred at work - he himself had to go to the second floor lunch room to get one (Frazier did not say that the Dr Pepper machine had other drinks in it "like Coca-Cola" too!).

Duke, had Bugliosi cared to read some testimony, he'd have found it wasn't so rare an occurrence. ...

Just so. As I'd said, "VB gets Frazier to say...."

Author Jim Bishop, in his book The Day Kennedy Was Shot, writes (without a citation, however) that Oswald "invariably drank Dr. Pepper." And we know that Marina told her biographer, Priscilla McMillan, that when he was working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall in Dallas in 1963, "after supper" he would walk down the street as he often did "to buy a newspaper and a bottle of Dr. Pepper."

There you go. Marina clearly, in her discussions with Miss Prissy, called a Dr Pepper a Dr Pepper. There is therefore, no basis to claim that elsewhere she may be referring to a Dr Pepper when she says "Coke".

This whole thing with Bugliosi seems to boil down to Bishop's uncited reference, and Marina's remark about him going for Dr Pepper occasionally. Yet he leaves out her reference to him drinking Coke at other times. Go figure.

Well, if I was Ronald Reagan, I'd be saying not "there you go," but "there you go again!" One time does not a habit make, and the exception - if it was - does not create the rule. There is nothing "clear" about Marina's discussions with Miss Pris since Marina's exact words are not recorded, merely Pris' narrative recollection from notes about what Marina actually said. If she said "Dr Pepper" once, twice or even ten times, then that means she never used the word "coke" to describe a soft drink?

I usuall drink Pepsi, and generally call it a Pepsi, but sometimes refer to it as a "coke," not meaning just a generic soda-pop, but a cola drink. I call an RC cola - which I also drink - a "coke" too, it being a dark-colored cola drink (... similar, actually, in appearance to a Dr Pepper!). I generally do not drink Coke. So if I say I'm going to get a "coke," do I mean it's going to be a Pepsi? An RC? A Coca-Cola? If I mean a Pepsi, I can't say "coke," especially if once I called it a Pepsi?

Promise me you won't go shopping for me. Ever.

(Y'know, part of the issue may be the capitalization: if the stenographers - who are never identified - weren't familiar with the "coke" colloquialism, they would capitalize it according to their own use of "Coke," to mean "Coca-Cola." The only important point is that when someone says "coke," they are not necessarily referring to Coca-Cola.)

[Greg Parker]

Promise me you won't go shopping for me. Ever.

Duke, that's almost a proposal!

[J. William King]

I have to agree with the word "coke" being used in a generic sense. I'm sure Baker didn't examine the bottle LHO was holding while he was looking for a presidential assassin. As for the machine, to this day, I still refer to all "coin operated carbonated beverage dispensing machines" as "Coke Machines". It's much easier to say and it doesn't matter to me what brand name is on the front.

JWK

Edited September 30, 2007 by J. William King

[Tim Gratz]

But the problem is that I believe Oswald told his interrogators that he had gone upstairs to get a Coke, thereby justifying his presence on the second floor. He was not speaking generically since his drink of choice (Dr. Pepper if VB is to be believed) was on the FIRST floor where LHO claimed he had bben eating lunch. And that was VB's point: why would LHO go to the second floor to get a Coke if his only drink was a Dr. Pepper? But I think Greg Parker demonstrated that he did indeed also drink Cokes.

[Bernice Moore]

But the problem is that I believe Oswald told his interrogators that he had gone upstairs to get a Coke, thereby justifying his presence on the second floor. He was not speaking generically since his drink of choice (Dr. Pepper if VB is to be believed) was on the FIRST floor where LHO claimed he had bben eating lunch. And that was VB's point: why would LHO go to the second floor to get a Coke if his only drink was a Dr. Pepper? But I think Greg Parker demonstrated that he did indeed also drink Cokes.

********

Hi Tim:

Trouble is we don't know what LHO told anyone..positively.....all we have are the Fritz notes...

and the said sos...

Below is Bakers and Fritiz's note that mentions said coke........FWTAW.....

B....

Edited October 1, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Tim Gratz]

An excellent point, Bernice. We do not KNOW for sure what LHO said. Once he was deceased, anyone could put any words in his mouth without fear of HIS contradiction.

Thanks for the posts.

You know, I was wondering, Baker had already been interviewed by the WC, why is he giving a statement to the FBI as late as September 23, 1964, on the (almost) eve of the publication of the WCR? Does anyone know why he was interviewed at that time?

Edited October 1, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

What is the bottle of pop photographed in the "sniper's nest"? (See link below.) Does anyone know anything about this?

I also read tonight of a photo of a police officer removing evidence from the TSBD. Pretty sure the reference was to the paper bag and a Dr. Pepper. If I recall, I read it in Ian Grigg's fine essay on the paper bag.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/studei.jpg

[James Richards]

Johnson emerged from the TSBD with this bottle. Anyone familiar with the label?

James

[Tim Gratz]

From Ian Griggs' article on the paper bag:

A very interesting photograph showing Detectives Johnson and Montgomery removing the paper bag and a Dr Pepper pop bottle from the book depository has been published

The article notes a Footnote 22 but I don't seem to have the Footnote to the article that I found on-line. Is the reference in his book: "No Case To Answer"?

[Antti Hynonen]

Sure looks like a Dr. Pepper bottle. Especially the one photographed from inside the TSBD.

See this youtube clip with a Dr. Pepper ad from the 60's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixRf3JC5haY

The last letter on the bottle held by the cop sure looks like an "R". Wouldn't the traditional coke bottle (and I mean Coca-Cola) have the traditional shape:

http://www.2collectcola.com/page/ACC/PROD/...2BA60-KingEmpty

[Tim Gratz]

So was that bottle, whatever it contained, ever dusted for prints?

What idiot takes along a bottle of soda on a mission to kill the POTUS?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

This thread's making me thirsty....