Fry him for that Coke!

[Tim Gratz]

We all know that per Dave Belin, if LHO already had that Coke in hand when Truly & Baker spotted him, he'd be an innocent man (not enough time to get it).

No, says Vincent, the fact that he had a Coke in hand, rather than his usual Dr. Pepper, is final proof that he shot JFK. You see, there was a functioning Dr Pepper machine on the first floor where he claimed he ate his lunch.

That Coke is more important to VB, you see, than the absurdity of the SBT!

[Gary Murr]

We all know that per Dave Belin, if LHO already had that Coke in hand when Truly & Baker spotted him, he'd be an innocent man (not enough time to get it).

No, says Vincent, the fact that he had a Coke in hand, rather than his usual Dr. Pepper, is final proof that he shot JFK. You see, there was a functioning Dr Pepper machine on the first floor where he claimed he ate his lunch.

That Coke is more important to VB, you see, than the absurdity of the SBT!

Tim:

I guess then taking VB's methodology here and applying it elsewhere within the confines of the TSBD that Bonnie Ray Williams must have eaten his lunch on the 1st floor, not the sixth. After all, Mr. Williams theoretically left behind his Dr. Pepper bottle when finished!

Gary Murr

[Ron Ecker]

Tim,

Did you actually shell out money for Bugliosi's book? I trust you got your money's worth, as you seem to be enjoying it.

Ron

[Guest Stephen Turner]

We all know that per Dave Belin, if LHO already had that Coke in hand when Truly & Baker spotted him, he'd be an innocent man (not enough time to get it).

No, says Vincent, the fact that he had a Coke in hand, rather than his usual Dr. Pepper, is final proof that he shot JFK. You see, there was a functioning Dr Pepper machine on the first floor where he claimed he ate his lunch.

That Coke is more important to VB, you see, than the absurdity of the SBT!

Tim, is this crock actually presented as as clinching evidence, or are you, in Cockney vernacular, Avin a larf me ol Son.

[Lee Forman]

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0438-001.gif

How does he resolve Oswald's being in a cab blocks away when he would need to be in the TSBD in order to buy the coke to begin with.

Interesting about the bracelet - never saw that before.

My advice - don't waste any time on VB.

FOOL, n.

A person who pervades the domain of intellectual speculation and diffuses himself through the channels of moral activity. He is omnific, omniform, omnipercipient, omniscience, omnipotent. He it was who invented letters, printing, the railroad, the steamboat, the telegraph, the platitude and the circle of the sciences. He created patriotism and taught the nations war -- founded theology, philosophy, law, medicine and Chicago. He established monarchical and republican government. He is from everlasting to everlasting -- such as creation's dawn beheld he fooleth now. In the morning of time he sang upon primitive hills, and in the noonday of existence headed the procession of being. His grandmotherly hand was warmly tucked-in the set sun of civilization, and in the twilight he prepares Man's evening meal of milk-and-morality and turns down the covers of the universal grave. And after the rest of us shall have retired for the night of eternal oblivion he will sit up to write a history of human civilization.

Ambrose Bierce, from his Devil's Dictionary

- lee

[Christopher Hall]

We all know that per Dave Belin, if LHO already had that Coke in hand when Truly & Baker spotted him, he'd be an innocent man (not enough time to get it).

No, says Vincent, the fact that he had a Coke in hand, rather than his usual Dr. Pepper, is final proof that he shot JFK. You see, there was a functioning Dr Pepper machine on the first floor where he claimed he ate his lunch.

That Coke is more important to VB, you see, than the absurdity of the SBT!

Does this mean you are fessing up to buying Reclaiming History?

I must admit that I recently purchased (on Amazon) a copy of Case Closed, primarily to see how Posner addresses the various issues that we discuss on this forum and that I have read in detail about in the last 12 - 15 JFK assassination books I have read (e.g. Someone Would Have Talked).

Fortunately, it came wrapped in newspaper inside the shipping box, so no one at the office could see what I purchased.

Equally fortunately, the Federales who survey my book purchases can see that I am a good (i.e. LN) citizen.

[Bill Cheslock]

We all know that per Dave Belin, if LHO already had that Coke in hand when Truly & Baker spotted him, he'd be an innocent man (not enough time to get it).

No, says Vincent, the fact that he had a Coke in hand, rather than his usual Dr. Pepper, is final proof that he shot JFK. You see, there was a functioning Dr Pepper machine on the first floor where he claimed he ate his lunch.

That Coke is more important to VB, you see, than the absurdity of the SBT!

Tim

The Dr. Pepper vs. Coca Cola debate was brought up in Jim Moore's LN book,

"Conspiracy Of One" back in 1990. Moore writes. "After the encounter with

Baker and Truly in the lunchroom, Oswald (displaying icy calm even though

Baker was holding at Oswald's midsection) put a nickel in the soda machine

and selected a Coca-Cola. It may be that this single action on Oswald's part

holds the key to his guilt. Oswald habitually drank Dr. Pepper. There can be

only one realistic explanation for a miser like Oswald to fail to select his soft

drink of choice--he was nervous." (Moore, page 53)

So there you have it. Case solved, or closed or whatever. However, Tim

my question is, did Bugliosi give credit to Moore for "solving" the case

via the soda episode? Or, did he take credit for figuring "sodagate" out himself, thus

opening himself up to charges of plagiarism?

Bill C

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, I am not sure if there was Dr Pepper in the pop machine on the second floor.

Here is VB's point, for what it is worth.

Oswald told police he had been having his lunch on the first floor and he had gone upstairs to get a soda. But there was in fact a Dr. Pepper machine on the FIRST floor so, since Dr. Pepper was LHO's favorite drink, it makes no sense that he would go upstairs to purchase a Coke (for five cents; those were the days!)when his favorite Dr. Pepper was right there on the first floor. Therefore, says VB, Oswald had just gotten down from the sixth floor. Of course, VB cannot know whether the first floor machine was out of Dr. Pepper explaining why LHO went to the second floor machine (but LHO never mentioned that the Dr. Pepper machine was out).

Does it add a little to the case against LHO? Well, maybe it does but again we do not know whether there was a very simple explanation for his getting the Coke on the 22nd.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Ron Ecker]

The fact that the machine on the first floor was out of Dr. Peppers is yet another indication of how clever the conspirators were. They had someone take all the Dr. Peppers out of the machine before lunchtime, so that Oswald would have to go to the second floor to look for a Dr. Pepper.

This was a doubly cruel touch in the framing of Oswald. He would of course be found on the second floor, which the WC would claim he had time to reach by hurrying down from the sixth floor, though he had actually come up from the first floor. But this frame-up wasn't all that ruined Oswald's lunch that day. The machine on the second floor was out of Dr. Peppers too.

[Tim Gratz]

To Christopher:

"Reclaiming History" is indeed a magnum opus for the pro-WC side of the conspiracy issue. It is IMO a much better book than "Case Closed" and I think in many respects more honest. I think VB leaves out material that goes against his position but I do not believe he misstates things as I believe Posner does from time to time. I mean, just contrast how VB treats the Odio matter as compared with Posner. Posner simply dismisses Odio as a nut whereas VB concludes that she was indeed probably visited by LHO (of course he offers a nonconspiratorial POV for the Odio incident).

IMO if you want to "solve" the case (at least in your own mind) you need to consider the "best case" for each side of the issue. Also IMO "Reclaiming History" is a much better book than "Case Closed" and it certainley covers a lot more of the issues.

I could not consider myself intellectually honest if I had not carefully considered the LN position on the issues before reaching a judgment.

The problem with Posner and Bugliosi (which is also a problem that affects some of us) is that they are arrogant enough to believe that anyone who disagrees with their position is irrational. It is clear to me there are intelligent and sincere people on both sides of the conspiracy issue.

[Bill Miller]

Bill, I am not sure if there was Dr Pepper in the pop machine on the second floor.

Here is VB's point, for what it is worth.

Oswald told police he had been having his lunch on the first floor and he had gone upstairs to get a soda. But there was in fact a Dr. Pepper machine on the FIRST floor so, since Dr. Pepper was LHO's favorite drink, it makes no sense that he would go upstairs to purchase a Coke (for five cents; those were the days!)when his favorite Dr. Pepper was right there on the first floor. Therefore, says VB, Oswald had just gotten down from the sixth floor. Of course, VB cannot know whether the first floor machine was out of Dr. Pepper explaining why LHO went to the second floor machine (but LHO never mentioned that the Dr. Pepper machine was out).

Does it add a little to the case against LHO? Well, maybe it does but again we do not know whether there was a very simple explanation for his getting the Coke on the 22nd.

How do we know what all Oswald ever mentioned? Did Oswald really have a coke in his hand or was it a Dr.Pepper that was mistaken for a coke? Did the machine jam and didn't allow Lee a Dr.Pepper, thus he had to go elsewhere or just choose another brand drink? The point I am making is that ...... was this evidence really looked at this thoroughly to ever know what the deal was with what Lee was drinking and from where he got it. JFK's motorcade made two unexpected stops on its way from Love Field and Lee had been seen on the lower floor sitting in a booth having his lunch. During such time there were men seen on the 6th floor - one holding what looked to one witness as being a rifle. Dillard captured an individual looking out of the west-most 6th floor window less than a minute after the shooting had taken place. Mrs. Mooneyham said that she saw someone on the 6th floor for several minutes following the assassination. The Commission published that photo, but for some reason saw a need to crop the photo - not on the side where so much Dallas sky is seen, but instead they cropped it off on the side that offered the most evidence as to whether anyone else was on the 6th floor besides Oswald ... if Lee was ever there at all during the shooting. If VB wanted to investigate something ... he should have started there IMO.

I have not seen VB's book, but if he addressed the Dillard photo and why the most important part was cropped out over the other choice which was to crop off the other end showing nothing but Dallas sky, then I'd be curious to know what he said about it.

Bill

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, I am quite certain that Oswald himself told his interrogators he had gone upstairs to get a COKE. Then again maybe he just said a soda and they assumed it was a Coke. And it is possible that whoever saw him with a soda (Baker maybe; Mrs. Reid) could have mistaken a Coke for a Dr. Pepper. But why would he go upstairs if Dr. Pepper was available on the first floor? I mean in that sense Bugliosi has a point. Since he almost always drank Dr. Pepper, that sounds like a cover story for why he was on the second floor--unless the machine on the first floor was out of Dr. Pepper. If it was, Oswald might not have thought it important enough to mention to his interrogators.

So is Bugliosi right? Does the Coke damn Oswald?

Well, consider the timing. Baker confronts him ninety seconds after the last shot, at which time it is a matter of dispute whether he already had the Coke. His brief encounter with Baker surely must have taken a few seconds at least. But Mrs. Reid sees him at exactly two minutes after the assassination (Belin helped her time her trip back inside. So if Oswald did not have the drink when Baker saw him, he had less than 30 seconds to buy one before Mrs. Reid saw him.

Assume after his encounter with Baker, Oswald had decided to flee (either because he shot JFK and was on his way out anyway or he was a patsy and realized he was being setup). He must have realized he had only minutes, perhaps seconds, before the building was sealed--or he encountered other police officers. So why would he waste ANY time at all to purchase the soda? I mean, if you were in his position, would YOU?

Because he was clearly on his way out when Mrs. Reid stopped him, the most logical inference is that he had the Coke before he encountered Baker and Truly. And wasn't it David Belin who admitted the timing of Oswald's presumed flight down to second flloor from sixth was so tight that had he had the Coke in hand when Baker spotted him, he must not have been the shooter.

Given Belin's judgment it seems the only way Oswald could be the shooter is if he did indeed stop to get a Coke AFTER encountering Baker. And that to me does not make sense. Someone in a desperate flight just isn't going to stop for a drink even if his throat feels like the Sahara desert at high noon.

So I would say he had the Coke when Baker spotted him, and thus he had an alibi.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Christopher Hall]

To Christopher:

"Reclaiming History" is indeed a magnum opus for the pro-WC side of the conspiracy issue. It is IMO a much better book than "Case Closed" and I think in many respects more honest. I think VB leaves out material that goes against his position but I do not believe he misstates things as I believe Posner does from time to time. I mean, just contrast how VB treats the Odio matter as compared with Posner. Posner simply dismisses Odio as a nut whereas VB concludes that she was indeed probably visited by LHO (of course he offers a nonconspiratorial POV for the Odio incident).

IMO if you want to "solve" the case (at least in your own mind) you need to consider the "best case" for each side of the issue. Also IMO "Reclaiming History" is a much better book than "Case Closed" and it certainley covers a lot more of the issues.

I could not consider myself intellectually honest if I had not carefully considered the LN position on the issues before reaching a judgment.

The problem with Posner and Bugliosi (which is also a problem that affects some of us) is that they are arrogant enough to believe that anyone who disagrees with their position is irrational. It is clear to me there are intelligent and sincere people on both sides of the conspiracy issue.

I agree with the need to review all POVs, and I wanted to get Posner's book to see how he treats (or, apparently, dismisses) important issues.

I will pick up a used copy of VB's treatise on Amazon sometime in the near future so I can use it for the same purpose.

I thought that Helter Skelter was of very modest quality, certainly compared to "The Family", which was outstanding.

I will update this post later with the author of The Family, but he used to be a member of the 1960s era psychedelic band called the Fugs.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

I thought that Helter Skelter was of very modest quality, certainly compared to "The Family", which was outstanding.

I will update this post later with the author of The Family, but he used to be a member of the 1960s era psychedelic band called the Fugs.

The ex-Fug was Ed Sanders. Good book. [Coined the unforgettable term "vomit-eyed trolls of Satan."]

Despite being primarily about Son Of Sam, also recommended for its overlapping content is The Ultimate Evil by Maury Terry.

[Ron Ecker]

So I would say he had the Coke when Baker spotted him, and thus he had an alibi.

Then Baker was lying when he testified that Oswald had nothing in his hands.