Who were the shooters?

[Ashton Gray]

They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence

Cliff: do you think you could locate that "sweet spot behind the fence" for me? (Don't get rude, Cliff. This ain't a D.C. lawyer you're talking to here.)

I'd like to aim my virtual camera from this alleged "sweet spot." So far, I'm having a lot of trouble finding any spot behind that fence that doesn't have a motorcycle cop and/or spectator in the line of fire. You seem to know where it is, though. Help me out.

Ashton

[Michael G. Smith]

As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.

President Kennedy's assassination was the work of magicians. It was a stage trick, complete with accessories and fake mirrors, and when the curtain fell, the actors, and even the scenery disappeared . . . the plotters were correct when they guessed that their crime would be concealed by shadows and silences, that it would be blamed on a 'madman' and negligence.'

I don't buy it. The assassination was designed to look like a conspiracy.

They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence and if anybody

got too wise they had a patsy named Jack in custody.

Pure speculation, of course, but methinks if Oswald had been gunned

down on Friday afternoon two guys in particular would have been sweating

bullets -- Fidel Castro and Jack Lawrence.

I think Jackie boy blew chunks back at the auto dealership cuz he realized

he'd been set up. When Oswald was captured alive, the Castro-did-it scenario

was pretty much dead.

Plan B wasn't what the plotters had in mind.

Cliff, Can you elaborate a little on your thoughts about Jack Lawrence? How do you think he was involved? I have always thought that he was involved in some way in the assassination, although alot of people wont agree with that. [just my opinion] I might get laughed out of here with this thought but here goes. In looking at people involved in the assassination, i always try to see who is who and put faces on people. One thing that struck me a while ago was, that to me anyway, Jack Lawrence looked strikingly similar to the Umbrella Man. I havent come across many photos of him, but the one that John has listed in his JFK assassination site under "Conspirators" is a well know photo of him. If you look at that photo, with the sport coat, shirt, hair, nose, etc...... [to me anyway], he looks very much like him. I know it may sound far fetched, but i havent come across many other people who look like the UM that were supposedly in DP that day. All of the photos i have seen of the UM that day, all look similar to Mr. Lawrence. Ok, ok, everybody stop laughing. Lol! Dont laugh me out of here too quickly. I just got in here! I figured i would go out on a limb and post what i thought.

thanks--Smitty

[Cliff Varnell]

They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence

Cliff: do you think you could locate that "sweet spot behind the fence" for me? (Don't get rude, Cliff. This ain't a D.C. lawyer you're talking to here.)

I'd like to aim my virtual camera from this alleged "sweet spot." So far, I'm having a lot of trouble finding any spot behind that fence that doesn't have a motorcycle cop and/or spectator in the line of fire. You seem to know where it is, though. Help me out.

Ashton

The eastern corner of the fence.

Ever been to Dealey? The joint is small, I'm tell'n ya.

[Cliff Varnell]

As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.

President Kennedy's assassination was the work of magicians. It was a stage trick, complete with accessories and fake mirrors, and when the curtain fell, the actors, and even the scenery disappeared . . . the plotters were correct when they guessed that their crime would be concealed by shadows and silences, that it would be blamed on a 'madman' and negligence.'

I don't buy it. The assassination was designed to look like a conspiracy.

They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence and if anybody

got too wise they had a patsy named Jack in custody.

Pure speculation, of course, but methinks if Oswald had been gunned

down on Friday afternoon two guys in particular would have been sweating

bullets -- Fidel Castro and Jack Lawrence.

I think Jackie boy blew chunks back at the auto dealership cuz he realized

he'd been set up. When Oswald was captured alive, the Castro-did-it scenario

was pretty much dead.

Plan B wasn't what the plotters had in mind.

Cliff, Can you elaborate a little on your thoughts about Jack Lawrence? How do you think he was involved? I have always thought that he was involved in some way in the assassination, although alot of people wont agree with that. [just my opinion] I might get laughed out of here with this thought but here goes. In looking at people involved in the assassination, i always try to see who is who and put faces on people. One thing that struck me a while ago was, that to me anyway, Jack Lawrence looked strikingly similar to the Umbrella Man. I havent come across many photos of him, but the one that John has listed in his JFK assassination site under "Conspirators" is a well know photo of him. If you look at that photo, with the sport coat, shirt, hair, nose, etc...... [to me anyway], he looks very much like him. I know it may sound far fetched, but i havent come across many other people who look like the UM that were supposedly in DP that day. All of the photos i have seen of the UM that day, all look similar to Mr. Lawrence. Ok, ok, everybody stop laughing. Lol! Dont laugh me out of here too quickly. I just got in here! I figured i would go out on a limb and post what i thought.

thanks--Smitty

My advice as always is, as much as possible, follow the evidence to a conclusion

and not visa verse.

I think Jack Lawrence was in the patsy chain. He may have been sheep-dipped in ways

he never knew. I think there had to have been contingency pasties on ice in case the

lone-shooter scenario didn't come into play.

I don't know Umbrella Man. I don't think JFK was hit in the throat with

a flechette from an umbrella. I think Mitch WerBell adapted the blood-soluble

paralytic technology pioneered by Charles Senseney to a sound suppressed

firearm that struck JFK from the Black Dog Man position in the throat at Z199,

nicked the trach, bruised the lung tip, fractured the tip of the right T1 transverse

process, then dissolved, leaving a field of metallic particles, this technology

using iron as a bonding agent.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/r..._6_Senseney.pdf

That's what I think fwiw...

Edited December 1, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Myra Bronstein]

They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence

Cliff: do you think you could locate that "sweet spot behind the fence" for me? (Don't get rude, Cliff. This ain't a D.C. lawyer you're talking to here.)

I'd like to aim my virtual camera from this alleged "sweet spot." So far, I'm having a lot of trouble finding any spot behind that fence that doesn't have a motorcycle cop and/or spectator in the line of fire. You seem to know where it is, though. Help me out.

Ashton

This seems relevant:

Craig Roberts was a U.S. Marine sniper. In 1994 he wrote a book, Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza. Here are two passages which I believe reading in some detail. I would be especially interested in hearing the views of other members of the Forum on this subject.

(1) Unlike Oswald, who failed to qualify on the rifle range in Boot Camp, and who barely qualified "Marksman"-the lowest of three grades-on a later try, I was a trained and combat-experienced Marine sniper.

...

First, I analyzed the scene as a sniper. In the time allotted, and in the distance along the street in which the rounds had impacted the target from first report to final shot, it would take a minimum of two people shooting. There was little hope that I alone, even if armed with the precision equipment I had used in Vietnam, would be able duplicate the feat described by the Warren Commission. So if I couldn't, I reasoned, Oswald couldn't.

...

(2) Knoll and the Picket Fence, which I had purposely saved for last. I walked up the slope and around the fence, arriving in a parking lot that was bordered on the northwest by train tracks. I walked the length of the fence, stopping at a spot on the eastern end.

I looked over the fence at Elm Street and froze. This is exactly where I would position myself if I wanted the most accurate shot possible considering the terrain I had explored. It had some drawbacks-it was close to witnesses, and prone to pre-incident discovery-but the advantages far outweighed the disadvantages for a determined assassin. The target vehicle would be approaching instead of moving away, thereby continually decreasing the range; the shot would be almost flat trajectory, making the down-angle formula a mute point; the deflection (right/left angle) would change little until the car passed a freeway sign on the north curbline; and finally, it offered numerous escape route possibilities. Behind me, to the north and west, was a parking lot full of cars, a train yard full of boxcars, and several physical terrain features to use as cover during withdrawal. It was by far the best spot.

Looking almost due east, across the grassy open park-like Plaza, I could see two multi-story office-type buildings approximately the same height as the Depository. The roof tops of either building would be excellent firing positions for a trained rifleman with the proper equipment, and would be the places I would select if I wanted the best possible chance of not being detected in advance. Without going to the roofs of each, I could not determine the accessibility of escape routes. But for firing platforms, they were ideal.

Then, considering the possibility of multiple-snipers (which meant a conspiracy), I had to ask myself how I would position the shooters to cover the kill zone in front of the Grassy Knoll?

My military training once again took over. I would use an area within the Plaza that would afford the best kill zone for either a crossfire or triangulated fire. Simply put, I would position my teams in such a way that their trajectory of fire converged on the most advantageous point to assure a kill. In the military, single snipers are seldom used. Normally, the smallest sniper team consists of two men, a sniper and his spotter/security man. Even in police SWAT teams, a marksman has an observer who is equipped with a spotting scope or binoculars to help pick and identify targets and handle the radio communications.

In this case, I would position at least one team behind the Picket Fence (more if I wanted to secure the rear against intruders), another on one or both of the two office buildings (which I later found to be the Dallas County Records Building and the County Criminal Courts Building), and possibly a team on a building across the street north of the Records Building known at the time as the Dal-Tex building. I would have never put anyone in the School Book Depository with so many locations that were much more advantageous unless I needed diversion. If I did, it would be a good place for red herrings to be observed by witnesses.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6778

I wish Craig Roberts had hung around the forum; I'm reading his book now.

[Ashton Gray]

They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence

Cliff: do you think you could locate that "sweet spot behind the fence" for me? (Don't get rude, Cliff. This ain't a D.C. lawyer you're talking to here.)

I'd like to aim my virtual camera from this alleged "sweet spot." So far, I'm having a lot of trouble finding any spot behind that fence that doesn't have a motorcycle cop and/or spectator in the line of fire. You seem to know where it is, though. Help me out.

Ashton

The eastern corner of the fence.

As you wish. I've even turned off the foliage to make the shot easier:

I'm wondering how no motorcycle cop got hit. I'm also wondering how anybody could get a scope bead drawn on a moving target from there with the inconvenient corner tree-shrub, shown here in Moorman:

And while I have that up there, I also don't see anybody there at the corner of the fence drawing such a bead—just an instant before the headshot. Must have been "Queeksdraw McGraw." Whaddaya think?

Quoting now from your other message above:

I don't think JFK was hit in the throat with a flechette from an umbrella. I think Mitch WerBell adapted the blood-soluble paralytic technology pioneered by Charles Senseney to a sound suppressed firearm that struck JFK from the Black Dog Man position...

Well, since your designated fence-corner "sweet spot" is just a few feet from the alleged—but always fun—"Black Dog Man" position, while I was there I thought I ought to set up the motorcade where it was at the time of the throat shot, and take a peek. Here ya' go:

I don't know about you, but I was having a bit of trouble picking the target out of the crowd, so I made him a bright sort of [G.W. BUSH] nyewkyuhler[/G.W. BUSH] green for you. Hope it helps.

And now here's what I think in general:

I think it's time we all snap out of over 40 years of mass shock and mass hypnosis, and get a reality check.

Ashton

[Dawn Meredith]

They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence

Cliff: do you think you could locate that "sweet spot behind the fence" for me? (Don't get rude, Cliff. This ain't a D.C. lawyer you're talking to here.)

I'd like to aim my virtual camera from this alleged "sweet spot." So far, I'm having a lot of trouble finding any spot behind that fence that doesn't have a motorcycle cop and/or spectator in the line of fire. You seem to know where it is, though. Help me out.

Ashton

The eastern corner of the fence.

As you wish. I've even turned off the foliage to make the shot easier:

I'm wondering how no motorcycle cop got hit. I'm also wondering how anybody could get a scope bead drawn on a moving target from there with the inconvenient corner tree-shrub, shown here in Moorman:

And while I have that up there, I also don't see anybody there at the corner of the fence drawing such a bead—just an instant before the headshot. Must have been "Queeksdraw McGraw." Whaddaya think?

Quoting now from your other message above:

I don't think JFK was hit in the throat with a flechette from an umbrella. I think Mitch WerBell adapted the blood-soluble paralytic technology pioneered by Charles Senseney to a sound suppressed firearm that struck JFK from the Black Dog Man position...

Well, since your designated fence-corner "sweet spot" is just a few feet from the alleged—but always fun—"Black Dog Man" position, while I was there I thought I ought to set up the motorcade where it was at the time of the throat shot, and take a peek. Here ya' go:

I don't know about you, but I was having a bit of trouble picking the target out of the crowd, so I made him a bright sort of [G.W. BUSH] nyewkyuhler[/G.W. BUSH] green for you. Hope it helps.

And now here's what I think in general:

I think it's time we all snap out of over 40 years of mass shock and mass hypnosis, and get a reality check.

Ashton

Wonderful graphics Ashton. On all the threads where you have done them. Great work.

Dawn

[Cliff Varnell]

And while I have that up there, I also don't see anybody there at the corner of the fence drawing such a bead—just an instant before the headshot. Must have been "Queeksdraw McGraw." Whaddaya think?

I buy Badgeman, a few feet west of the corner.

Quoting now from your other message above:

I don't think JFK was hit in the throat with a flechette from an umbrella. I think Mitch WerBell adapted the blood-soluble paralytic technology pioneered by Charles Senseney to a sound suppressed firearm that struck JFK from the Black Dog Man position...

Well, since your designated fence-corner "sweet spot" is just a few feet from the alleged—but always fun—"Black Dog Man" position, while I was there I thought I ought to set up the motorcade where it was at the time of the throat shot, and take a peek. Here ya' go:

I don't know about you, but I was having a bit of trouble picking the target out of the crowd, so I made him a bright sort of [G.W. BUSH] nyewkyuhler[/G.W. BUSH] green for you. Hope it helps.

And now here's what I think in general:

I think it's time we all snap out of over 40 years of mass shock and mass hypnosis, and get a reality check.

Ashton

Let's address the throat shot, first...

Not so difficult a shot for a quick bead artist, Mr. BDM up behind the wall.

This is Willis #5 taken at Z202, no foliage, no civilians, no motorcycle cops.

The shot to the throat came from the right front unless you want to argue

for the Single Bullet Theory...

[cue "Twilight Zone"]

The plotters were not taking any chances, however, and I speculate that

another paralytric round hit JFK at Z227 in the back just below the upper

margin of his shoulder blades less than two inches to the right of his spine.

Now, as to the issue of mass shock and mass hypnosis -- I agree 100%.

The JFK research community has hypnotized itself into thinking that

the case hasn't already been solved.

[Ashton Gray]

NOTE-REVISED: Because both "Black Dog Man" and "Badge Man" were brought up by Cliff Varnell, I created the series of images below from the "Black Dog Man" location, but posted them after quoting Cliff's statement only about "Badge Man." Having made this error, I'm going to leave this message just the way it is for all fans of the elusive and wraithlike "Black Dog Man." The equally elusive "Badge Man" is just going to have to sit in the bushes and wait his turn. I regret any additional confusion that might arise from my mistake in one of the world's greatest areas of confusion, and I hope this note and the images below from the alleged "Black Dog Man" location help to bring a little order. I will endeavor to atone by posting, soon, views from the purported "Badge Man" location, and I hope, and believe, that the net result will be greater clarity and, ultimately, considerably lessened confusion in an event super-charged with it.

And while I have that up there, I also don't see anybody there at the corner of the fence drawing such a bead—just an instant before the headshot. Must have been "Queeksdraw McGraw." Whaddaya think?

I buy Badgeman, a few feet west of the corner.

Somehow, Cliff, I just knew you were going to make me do it.

Well, all right, then...

But before we have our shadowy friend Black Dog Man go gettin' an itchy trigger finger, let's give a big shout out to his homies in the 'hood.

First, as he stands there, rifle in hand, ready to murder the President of the United States in broad daylight, he glances to his right and gives a nod to the three (count 'em: 3) Knoll Steps Boys just about 16 feet away (probably less than the distance across your living room):

Hi, boys. Pleasant afternoon for a little murder, don't you think?

Swinging his gaze a little to his left, the homicidal (and, apparently, suicidal) maniac finds a pleasant collection of people loitering around the old lamp post, a few scattered around the infield, and some whack case with an umbrella:

Swinging his gaze further left, our audacious assassin-to-be finds, just 30 feet away, not one, but two more close-up-and-personal eyewitnesses for his infamy: Sitzman and Zapruder. If all that alone didn't make his day, one of them is holding a damned movie camera! And if that weren't enough, just across the wide steps there are two more people who could foil his plans with the merest glance:

But, what the hell. Sometimes you just gotta let 'er rip. Getting down to business, Black Dog Man sets his sights on the throat shot:

I narrowed the field of view so there would be some chance, at least, of picking the target out of the sea of faces. Of course, I guess the Umbrella Man wasn't in full display yet at the time of the throat shot. But at this point, frankly: I don't give a damn.

Now that BDM has done his bid'ness with the throat shot, time to deliver the coup de grace:

There you go. I've even given BDM's target more of the low-rider lean, by request. Looks like he just might miss the motorcycle cops. (Then, of course, merely stroll away. Invisibly. Well, they don't call 'em "spooks" for nothing.)

Now, as to the issue of mass shock and mass hypnosis -- I agree 100%.

The JFK research community has hypnotized itself into thinking that

the case hasn't already been solved.

Heh. Yeah.

Asthon

Edited December 1, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Cliff Varnell]

[AG]: And while I have that up there, I also don't see anybody there at the corner

of the fence drawing such a bead—just an instant before the headshot. Must have been

"Queeksdraw McGraw." Whaddaya think?

[CV]: I buy Badgeman, a few feet west of the corner.

[AG]: Somehow, Cliff, I just knew you were going to make me do it.

Well, all right, then...

But before we have our shadowy friend Black Dog Man go gettin' an itchy trigger finger,

let's give a big shout out to his homies in the 'hood.

First, as he stands there, rifle in hand, ready to murder the President of the United States

in broad daylight, he glances to his right and gives a nod to the three (count 'em: 3) Knoll

Steps Boys just about 16 feet away (probably less than the distance across your living room):

[CV]: Badge Man dressed like a cop. If Black Dog Man dressed like a cop he'd

blend in with the general cop presence, would he not? [see Lee Bowers

testimony below]

A cop armed and (arguably) returning fire at the assassins (see Ambassador Hotel

6/5/68) works as a cover in case some joker didn't have his eyes glued to the

limousine.

Were spectators actually watching the motorcade, or milling around facing the

fence as you depict?

Let's go to the photo evidence, again:

Okay, I'm Black Dog Man, my homies are watching the presidential

motorcade -- I'm banking on them watching the President and the

lovely Jackie -- eyes glued on them riding in the limo, in fact.

But as a contingency, I'm dressed like a cop.

My intention is to paralyze the bastard so my buddy Badgeman can

blow his brains out. Badge Man is dressed like a cop, obviously.

You see, the plotters didn't pick a first-shot/kill-shot strategy -- nervous

shooters commiting treason might wing the ex-Navy man Jack and a

non-fatal wound might inspire him to hit the floor of the limo.

They didn't want to take that chance. They had the technology to hit

JFK with a blood soluble round that would paralyze him in two seconds

[see Charles Senseney's Senate testimony cited on a previous post].

So they created a little mis-direction by firing a couple of shots from the

TSBD and maybe even the Dal Tex or your County Courts.

My cover story is I'm returning fire from the opposite direction, if anyone

sees me.

No one does. They don't hear me so well, either, my shot is sound

suppressed.

I appear in two photos -- Betzner #3 (Z186) and the afore cited Willis #5 (Z202).

Then I'm gone like Kaiser Soze...

All fun aside, I'd suggest we put aside our speculations and address

actual witness testimony and actual photographs. Your graphics are

interesting but surely you're not contending that people stood watching

the retaining wall rather than the Kennedy limo?

Here's the guy with the best view of the scene at the back of the fence

during the shooting secquence, Mr. Lee Bowers before the Warren boys:

(quote on)

Mr. Ball.

Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high ground between

your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the

mouth of the underpass?

Mr. Bowers.

Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men.

One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt,

fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a

plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. Ball.

Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. Bowers.

They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance

of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. Ball.

In what direction were they facing?

Mr. Bowers.

They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the

caravan as it came down.

Mr. Ball.

Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. Bowers.

On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both

east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union

Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and

there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.

Mr. Ball.

You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?

Mr. Bowers.

Yes; they were there before 'and after.

Mr. Ball.

And were they standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. Bowers.

Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston Street, all except,

of course, the one policeman on the west side.

(quote off)

And then what happened Mr. Bowers?

(quote on)

Mr. Bowers.

At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately

following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the

top of the incline...

...Mr. Ball.

Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. Bowers.

I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The white shirt, yes;

I think he was.

Mr. Ball.

When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? What did it look like

to you when you were looking at the commotion?

Mr. Bowers.

I just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of

milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the

ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.

Mr. Ball.

You couldn't describe it?

Mr. Bowers.

Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that---

Mr. Ball.

Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower?

Mr. Bowers.

A large number of people came, more than one direction. One group converged from

the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the extension of Elm and came into the

high ground, and another line another large group went across the triangular area

between Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them

all the way up. Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred

policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.

(quote off)

Catch that bit about the dark dressed man not being distinguishable from the trees?

And the two cops watching east/west on the triple underpass?

The back of the fence offered natural cover.

Now as regards your "puff-of-smoke-diversion" idea, only 7 people have stated

they saw a puff of smoke.

Are we to believe that all these people poured in from different directions on the

basis of a puff of smoke they didn't say they saw?

[AG]: Hi, boys. Pleasant afternoon for a little murder, don't you think?

[CV]: So these guys came to see Kennedy or the retaining wall?

No need to speculate, the Dealey Plaza photos show these guys watching the

motorcade with their backs turned to BDM.

[AG]:Swinging his gaze a little to his left, the homicidal (and, apparently, suicidal)

maniac finds a pleasant collection of people loitering around the old lamp post, a

few scattered around the infield, and some whack case with an umbrella:

[CV]: People were loitering? Loitering? I think it likely that all eyes were on the

limo until shots rang out from the TSBD -- and some attention was diverted there.

[AG]: Swinging his gaze further left, our audacious assassin-to-be finds, just 30

feet away, not one, but two more close-up-and-personal eyewitnesses for his infamy:

Sitzman and Zapruder. And if all that alone didn't make his day, one of them is holding

a damned movie camera! If that weren't enough, just across the wide steps there are

two more people who could foil his plans with the merest glance:

[CV]: That's dramatic.

Do you think Sitzman or Zapruder would interfere with a police officer

responding to gunfire from the northeast corner of the Plaza?

How many citizen arrests of police officers occured in Dallas in 1963?

[AG]: But, what the hell. Sometimes you just gotta let 'er rip. Getting down to business,

Black Dog Man sets his sights on the throat shot:

[AG]: I narrowed the field of view so there would be some chance, at least, of

picking the target out of the sea of faces. Of course, I guess the Umbrella Man

wasn't in full display yet at the time of the throat shot. But at this point, frankly:

I don't give a damn.

[CV]: And what makes you think the product of your imagination trumps Willis #5,

which shows no one standing between BDM and JFK at Z202?

And unless you've actually been to Dealey Plaza, you don't know the compactness

of the place.

[AG]: Now that BDM has done his bid'ness with the throat shot,

[CV]: If assumption and homemade animation equaled argument you

might have something here, Ashton.

But at some point you have to deal with the throat wound -- or at least

claim that was a diversion, too.

[AG]: There you go. I've even given BDM's target more of the low-rider lean, by

request. Looks like he just might miss the motorcycle cops. Then just stroll away.

Invisibly. They don't call 'em "spooks" for nothing.

[CV]: Dressed like a cop kinda blends you in around other cops, Ashton.

[CV]: Now, as to the issue of mass shock and mass hypnosis -- I agree 100%.

The JFK research community has hypnotized itself into thinking that

the case hasn't already been solved.

[AG]: Heh. Yeah.

Asthon

[CV] Exhibit A...

Anyone out there who doubts that the assassination of JFK was controlled

and commanded by Ed Lansdale, David Phillips, and David Morales either

isn't familiar with the case or is a Co-Incidentalist of a high order.

Edited December 2, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Ashton Gray]

Ashton,

Julia Ann Mercer, a 23 yo Dallas resident, was driving a rented Valiant on Elm Street early on November 22. She noticed a truck parked on the right hand side of the road, half up on the curb, protruding into the street and partially blocking traffic. It was a green Ford pickup with the words 'air conditioning' in black on the driver's side. From Mark Lane's Rush To Judgement (pp29-31):

Miss Mercer saw a heavy set middle aged man in a green jacket 'slouched over the wheel' of the truck while the other man 'reached over the tailgate' and took out from the truck what appeared to be a gun case.....The man then 'proceeded to walk away from the truck and as he did, the small end of the case caught in the grass or sidewalk and he reached down to free it. He then proceeded to walk across the grass and up the grassy hill which forms part of the overpass'.

Miss Mercer was able to give a rather detailed description of that man. He was 'a white male, late 20's or early 30's, and he was wearing a grey jacket, brown pants and plaid shirt'

Mercer submitted an affidavit for the Dallas Sheriff's office on November 22 but was not called to testify before the WC. Interestingly, her description fits that given by Lee Bowers of the two men he saw standing near the fence just before the shots were fired. He described one as 'middle aged' and 'fairly heavy-set' and the other as 'about midtwenties in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket'.

It should be noted that Mercer also stated that there were three policemen standing on the bridge overlooking the truck while she was there. All this might indicate that a murder weapon was being delivered, although the gun case may have been empty. IMO, it doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that the two men were part of a diversion which was implanted, at least partially, under the watchful eye of the DPD.

Hi Mark,

I've been trying to find a space in the posting sequence to thank you for bringing me up to speed on the Mercer incident. What I find most striking about it is how utterly pedestrian (I don't find puns; puns find me) it all is—except, of course, for the dramatic description (after the fact of a shooting, dontcha' know) of "what appeared to be a gun case" by someone who, as far as I know, wouldn't know a gun case from a fingernail file case.

As Lane points out, the testimony by both Mercer and Bowers about "two men" is consistent, and taken together is all very consistent (allowing for them taking their jackets off as the day warmed up) with two men doing some kind of work they needed to do—under the watchful eye of policemen—then moving their truck and hanging around to see the President go by—still under the watchful eye of policemen who probably had been watching them the whole time.

I find an endless source of entertainment in the way various threads seem to bring themselves together, because I've just now suffered through Cliff Varnell's most recent torturous twisting of Bowers's testimony about "two men" into something utterly unrecognizable in order to support an unsupportable position, consistently ignoring the most crucial facts in Bowers's actual statements. Like, f'r'instance (my bold emphasis added):

• MR. BALL: Now, were there any people standing on the high side-- high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?
  MR. BOWERS: Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about mid-twenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket. ...On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.
  MR. BALL: You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?
  MR. BOWERS: Yes; they were there before and after.
  

This is at least an approximation of what Bowers described about the two men at issue and at least one of the policemen at that end of the overpass:

Oooo. Sinister. (By the way, my 2D people placed in a 3D model always "face the camera" as a feature of the software, so please don't anybody rush to tell me they are looking in the wrong direction. For these purposes, it's entirely immaterial.)

Varnell would have us believe that one or both of these men, in a flash, transmuted into their alter-egos, "Black Dog Man" and "Badge Man" (don't ask me where Badge Man's trusty sidekick and spotter, Hard-Hat Man materialized from, or how Badge Man got a badge—I simply don't know), dashed 120' down the length of the fence (in mud, you betcha'), got a gun or guns from somewhere unknown, shot the President of the United States (at least twice), crumbled the gun(s) into magic dust (creating a puff of smoke, of course), then ran back the 120' (in mud, you betcha') to be standin' around whistling innocently the next time Bowers thought to glance over there again. (Gotta' watch them spooks every minute!)

You know, I'm just a simple guy from simple roots, and somehow it sounds a lot more to me like these were working stiffs—possibly connected in some way with the welding job that had to get done, President or no president, possibly not—who had delivered some stuff to that area (seen by Ms. Mercer) and had hung around near the cops stationed there to see the Prez go by. And after Ms. Mercer heard the President had been shot, she decided those musta' been gun bags they wuz totin'.

Meanwhile, as the Warren Commission (and others) drone on and on about complete dead-end nonsense, over at the other side of the ranch, almost utterly ignored:

We have a team that has just been briefed by the CIA's worst and dirtiest, accommodatingly flown in by Tosh Plumlee and friends, that packs unnamed Cubans and a celebrity Mafioso into Dealey Plaza and God know what else. Tosh Plumlee—who, as the Fates and Furies would have it, just happens to have spent a so-far-unrevealed amount of time with Lee Harvey Oswald in "intelligence training matters."

And I guess, for some reason (see Varnell above), I'm supposed to get all "Oooooooo! Ahhhhhhh!" about a couple of drudges hanging around, absolutely pinned between cops on the overpass and Bowers in the tower.

And some people wonder why I seem to take on a bit of an edge now and then. Well, they shouldn't wonder: it's either that, or pop a vein.

Ashton

Edited December 2, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Michael G. Smith]

Ashton,

Julia Ann Mercer, a 23 yo Dallas resident, was driving a rented Valiant on Elm Street early on November 22. She noticed a truck parked on the right hand side of the road, half up on the curb, protruding into the street and partially blocking traffic. It was a green Ford pickup with the words 'air conditioning' in black on the driver's side. From Mark Lane's Rush To Judgement (pp29-31):

Miss Mercer saw a heavy set middle aged man in a green jacket 'slouched over the wheel' of the truck while the other man 'reached over the tailgate' and took out from the truck what appeared to be a gun case.....The man then 'proceeded to walk away from the truck and as he did, the small end of the case caught in the grass or sidewalk and he reached down to free it. He then proceeded to walk across the grass and up the grassy hill which forms part of the overpass'.

Miss Mercer was able to give a rather detailed description of that man. He was 'a white male, late 20's or early 30's, and he was wearing a grey jacket, brown pants and plaid shirt'

Mercer submitted an affidavit for the Dallas Sheriff's office on November 22 but was not called to testify before the WC. Interestingly, her description fits that given by Lee Bowers of the two men he saw standing near the fence just before the shots were fired. He described one as 'middle aged' and 'fairly heavy-set' and the other as 'about midtwenties in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket'.

It should be noted that Mercer also stated that there were three policemen standing on the bridge overlooking the truck while she was there. All this might indicate that a murder weapon was being delivered, although the gun case may have been empty. IMO, it doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that the two men were part of a diversion which was implanted, at least partially, under the watchful eye of the DPD.

Hi Mark,

I've been trying to find a space in the posting sequence to thank you for bringing me up to speed on the Mercer incident. What I find most striking about it is how utterly pedestrian (I don't find puns; puns find me) it all is—except, of course, for the dramatic description (after the fact of a shooting, dontcha' know) of "what appeared to be a gun case" by someone who, as far as I know, wouldn't know a gun case from a fingernail file case.

As Lane points out, the testimony by both Mercer and Bowers about "two men" is consistent, and taken together is all very consistent (allowing for them taking their jackets off as the day warmed up) with two men doing some kind of work they needed to do—under the watchful eye of policemen—then moving their truck and hanging around to see the President go by—still under the watchful eye of policemen who probably had been watching them the whole time.

I find an endless source of entertainment in the way various threads seem to bring themselves together, because I've just now suffered through Cliff Varnell's most recent torturous twisting of Bowers's testimony about "two men" into something utterly unrecognizable in order to support an unsupportable position, consistently ignoring the most crucial facts in Bowers's actual statements. Like, f'r'instance (my bold emphasis added):

• MR. BALL: Now, were there any people standing on the high side-- high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?
  MR. BOWERS: Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about mid-twenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket. ...On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.
  MR. BALL: You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?
  MR. BOWERS: Yes; they were there before and after.
  

This is at least an approximation of what Bowers described about the two men at issue and at least one of the policemen at that end of the overpass:

Oooo. Sinister. (By the way, my 2D people placed in a 3D model always "face the camera" as a feature of the software, so please don't anybody rush to tell me they are looking in the wrong direction. For these purposes, it's entirely immaterial.)

Varnell would have us believe that one or both of these men, in a flash, transmuted into their alter-egos, "Black Dog Man" and "Badge Man" (don't ask me where Badge Man's trusty sidekick and spotter, Hard-Hat Man materialized from, or how Badge Man got a badge—I simply don't know), dashed 120' down the length of the fence (in mud, you betcha'), got a gun or guns from somewhere unknown, shot the President of the United States (at least twice), crumbled the gun(s) into magic dust (creating a puff of smoke, of course), then ran back the 120' (in mud, you betcha') to be standin' around whistling innocently the next time Bowers thought to glance over there again. (Gotta' watch them spooks every minute!)

You know, I'm just a simple guy from simple roots, and somehow it sounds a lot more to me like these were working stiffs—possibly connected in some way with the welding job that had to get done, President or no president, possibly not—who had delivered some stuff to that area (seen by Ms. Mercer) and had hung around near the cops stationed there to see the Prez go by. And after Ms. Mercer heard the President had been shot, she decided those musta' been gun bags they wuz totin'.

Meanwhile, as the Warren Commission (and others) drone on and on about complete dead-end nonsense, over at the other side of the ranch, almost utterly ignored:

We have a team that has just been briefed by the CIA's worst and dirtiest, accommodatingly flown in by Tosh Plumlee and friends, that packs unnamed Cubans and a celebrity Mafioso into Dealey Plaza and God know what else. Tosh Plumlee—who, as the Fates and Furies would have it, just happens to have spent a so-far-unrevealed amount of time with Lee Harvey Oswald in "intelligence training matters."

And I guess, for some reason (see Varnell above), I'm supposed to get all "Oooooooo! Ahhhhhhh!" about a couple of drudges hanging around, absolutely pinned between cops on the overpass and Bowers in the tower.

And some people wonder why I seem to take on a bit of an edge now and then. Well, they shouldn't wonder: it's either that, or pop a vein.

Ashton

LMAO! Gotta watch those veins Ashton! -smitty

[Cliff Varnell]

I find an endless source of entertainment in the way various threads seem to bring themselves together, because I've just now suffered through Cliff Varnell's most recent torturous twisting of Bowers's testimony about "two men" into something utterly unrecognizable in order to support an unsupportable position, consistently ignoring the most crucial facts in Bowers's actual statements.

This is odd.

I cited Bowers' testimony, but I didn't make any reference to the two men,

tortured or otherwise.

Here are the observations I posted as to the Bowers' testimony.

1. "Here's the guy with the best view of the scene at the back of the fence

during the shooting sequence..."

2. "Catch that bit about the dark dressed man not being distinguishable from

the trees?"

3. "And the two cops watching east/west on the triple underpass?"

4. "The back of the fence offered natural cover."

Now that, Ashton, is the sum total of comments I made about Lee Bowers.

I made one statement of fact -- that Bowers had the best view of the back

of the fence.

I then asked you if you caught the key points in the testimony -- two questions,

neither of which had to do with the two men.

Then I formed a conclusion -- the back of the fence offered natural cover.

Where in all of that do you get some "tortured twisting of Bowers testimony"?

Ashton?

Ashton Gray continues:

Varnell would have us believe

Now, gentle reader, whenever you see a sentence that starts out like this and

there is no direct quotation -- time to get out the hip waders.

that one or both of these men, in a flash, transmuted into their alter-egos, "Black Dog Man" and "Badge Man" (don't ask me where Badge Man's trusty sidekick and spotter, Hard-Hat Man materialized from, or how Badge Man got a badge—I simply don't know),

You've been hanging out with Pat Speer too much, Ashton. All I pointed out

was the reasonable speculation that two gunmen dressed as cops shot JFK from

the knoll.

I never claimed that the two cops Bowers saw were the same guys, but

that fact isn't going to stop you when you're in full strawman mode, is it?

dashed 120' down the length of the fence (in mud, you betcha'), got a gun or guns

from somewhere unknown, shot the President of the United States (at least twice),

crumbled the gun(s) into magic dust (creating a puff of smoke, of course), then ran back

the 120' (in mud, you betcha') to be standin' around whistling innocently the next time

Bowers thought to glance over there again. (Gotta' watch them spooks every minute!)

Wow...I don't recall ever saying anything of the like. I merely pointed out the police

presence in the vicinity of the knoll, and that shooters dressed as cops could easily

blend in.

I guess when you have no facts to cite in a (one-sided) discussion the only recourse

is to strawmen.

Sorry if your pet theory doesn't match the facts of the case, Ashton -- you still haven't

explained how the throat wound got there if it wasn't caused by a strike from the right

front.

But hey -- don't let the facts of the case get in the way of a fun theory, right, Ashton?

And I guess, for some reason (see Varnell above), I'm supposed to get all "Oooooooo!

Ahhhhhhh!" about a couple of drudges hanging around, absolutely pinned between cops

on the overpass and Bowers in the tower.

Where do you get this crap, Ashton? I didn't say anything about the two

"drudges." They were not the point of my citation of Bowers testimony.

And some people wonder why I seem to take on a bit of an edge now and then.

Well, they shouldn't wonder: it's either that, or pop a vein.

Pour a double or roll a fatty and chill. Sheesh...

Edited December 2, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

TO LEE FORMAN:

Lee, I asked you for a specific location in the bushes by the peristyle, and you gave me a link to a two page forum thread for me to have to wade through even to begin to deduce what you meant. I'll try again: Do you have a specific location you want the view from? If so tell me or post an image with it marked.

Yes - using a crop from Roberdeau's plat - in the general area of the red line indicated. Or the red square on the image.

- lee

Lee,

Here is a small - very small reconstruction of what someone standing at the location you highlighted might have seen.

I hope it helps.

EBC

Edited December 2, 2006 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Cliff Varnell]

We have a team that has just been briefed by the CIA's worst and dirtiest, accommodatingly flown in by Tosh Plumlee and friends, that packs unnamed Cubans

Any Cuban involved in this deal had the same name: Patsy...