Some questions for Tom Purvis

[Chris Brown]

Hi Tom,

In your survey data is 4 (4 + 65.3 & 4 + 95) some physical Datum reference. For example a fire hydrant or a storm drain grid?

Is there an origin datum and if so would this origin be physically located in or close to the TSBD?

Are the +65.3 & +95 distances in feet, measured from Datum 4. For example the known distance from the origin to datum 4 + 65.3/95 feet?

In your shot scenario is shrapnel from the 2nd (&/or) 3rd shots the cause of John Connelly’s wounds?

Chris Brown.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Hi Tom,

In your survey data is 4 (4 + 65.3 & 4 + 95) some physical Datum reference. For example a fire hydrant or a storm drain grid?

Is there an origin datum and if so would this origin be physically located in or close to the TSBD?

Are the +65.3 & +95 distances in feet, measured from Datum 4. For example the known distance from the origin to datum 4 + 65.3/95 feet?

In your shot scenario is shrapnel from the 2nd (&/or) 3rd shots the cause of John Connelly’s wounds?

Chris Brown.

In your survey data

Not "MY" data! It was created by Dallas County Surveyor Mr. Robert West.

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During the period of December 2, 3, & 4th of 1963, the United States Secret Service had Mr. Robert West complete a "Legal Survey" of the area surrounding Dealey Plaza, and then conducted an assassination re-enactment.

In completion of this survey work, Mr. West carried elevation control into Dealey Plaza and in addition to establishment of key elevations, also did contour elevation for most of Houston St. as well as Elm St. from the Houston St./Elm St. turn, down to the RR overpass.

In addition to elevation control, the SS had Mr. West establish a "horizontal control" stationing which began with Survey Stationing 0+00 back at the intersection of Houston & Main St.

This "Stationing" followed the position which JFK would have occupied in relationship to the the center of the street, and carried through onto and down Elm St. to the RR overpass.

Thereafter, at regular 25-foot intervals, the SS had photographs taken from the sixth floor window of the TSDB, as well as photographs taken from the Zapruder position once the re-enactment vehicle had begun to enter onto Elm St.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0450a.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0450b.htm

In addition to the standard 25-foot distance intervals, the SS also had Mr. West establish the actual "Station Number"/aka physical distance from Stationing 0+00 for each of the three shots fired in the assassination shot sequence.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

During much of this work, Mr. West actually drove large (most probably 10-penny) nails down into the asphalt of the street to serve as future reference/"benchmarks".

===============================================================================

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0450a.htm

Beginning point stationing (0+00) began directly back at the Northernmost painted pedestrian cross-walk, virtually where the limousine is observed in this photograph. A "nail" hub was installed here at control elevation 430.12 in the street, and in event that one enjoys "dodging traffic", it is entirely possible that this nail still remains driven down into the asphalt at that location.

In event that you wish to look for it, try about 3-feet to the East of the center of street white stripe, on a projected alignment from the wall of the old Criminal Courts Building.

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In addition to the work for the Secret Service, of which the Survey Plat is dated December 5, 1963, Mr. West again was called upon to conduct an assassination re-enactment survey for the FBI which was done on 2/7/64.

In that regards, Mr. West utilized the exact same survey control points (elevation & horizontal) as established during the SS work of December 1963.

Therefore, all of the FBI work of February 1964, as well as their ultimate survey plat, is directly complimentary with the SS Survey Plat of 1963.

================================================================================

Note: Many have confused this little known survey plat as being the one which represents the SS work of December 1963.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm

Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and then at the one at 265 feet.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain your reference to a map? You have made several references to that.

Mr. SIMMONS. I refer to the survey plat which is dated December 5, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how were you supplied with that?

Mr. SIMMONS. To the best of my knowledge, you gave it to one of the employees in my office.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, this is a plat made by a licensed surveyor of the area immediately adjoining the Texas School Book Depository. I would like to introduce it into evidence solely to show the basis which Mr. Simmons was using in his test, and not for the truth, of the measurements which are shown in here.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be received.

Mr. EISENBERG. That would be Commission 585.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 585 and received in evidence.)

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0144b.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------

And, although the primary Data Block of this survey demonstrates December 5, 1963, it IS NOT the SS Survey of that date.

It is in fact the FBI assassination re-enactment survey plat of February 7, 1964, in which the FBI attempted to move the impact location of the Second/aka Z313 impact.

Located down in the legend of the Survey Plat one will find the "Revision Date" of 2/7/64.

As a note on this Survey Plat, shot#3/aka the 4+65 impact location is the same on both the original SS Survey Plat as well as the FBI revised plat.

ONLY the Z313/aka Second Shot impact point was "moved" on the FBI generated survey.

(I long ago explained all of this as well as the rational behind it).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Then, along comes the Warren Commission.

In their attempt to befuddle and confuse, the WC began their work from a completely non-established location on Elm St., which was not even in the center of the street.

This, (Station "A") along with another means of measurement (Station "C") would give locations which absolutely no one would ever be able to follow.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This shows the photograph that was made from the point where Zapruder was standing looking toward the car, and is a point that we have designated as position A because it is in a position that did not appear on the Zapruder film

The Zapruder film does not start until the car gets farther down Elm Street.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. What is that exhibit number?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Exhibit No. 886.

Mr. SPECTER. And why was that location selected for the position of the car?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This location was selected as the first point at which a person in the sixth floor window of the Book Building at our control point could have gotten a shot at the President after the car had rounded the corner from Houston to Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. And what position is station C?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Station C is on a line drawn along the west curb line of Houston Street in a direct line, and station C is at a point along that line that is in line with where the car would have turned coming around that corner. It is on a line which is an extension of the west curb line of Houston Street.

Mr. DULLES. Where is position A on that chart?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Position A is here.

Mr. McCLOY. That is before you get to the tree?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; he isn't under the tree yet.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0050a.htm

As well as giving us virtually irrelevant information in regards to distances and angles to the handrail on the RR overpass.

===============================================================================

Now, being a good surveyor, Mr. West was fully aware that he had to have some form of reference location for "Station A" as well as the later frames of the Z-film (other than the WC's highly confusing and completely unorthodox Station A and Station C and handrail distance measurements).

This reference was absolutely necessary in order for his draftsman to be able to physically located the surveyed in positions in relationship to Elm St.

Therefore, already having nails driven into Elm St. (as well as elsewhere) from the Time/Life survey work, as well as the SS and FBI survey work, as well as the relationship of the WC's survey points in regards to previously established stationing along Elm St., Mr. West merely established in his survey notes a corresponding stationing number for each of those positions surveyed in for the WC.

Something which the WC quite apparantly had no desire to do!

Therefore, Survey stationing numbers for the SS Survey Plat; the FBI Survey Plat; as well as the WC Survey Plat, ARE THE SAME.

Therefore, Survey Stationing 4+65 is the exact same location on all three survey plats, and one can accurately correlate data from one survey plat to the other.

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In that regards, the WC quite obviously gave us nothing in regards to the possibility of any shot impact past the Z313 impact which was surveyed in, and which Mr. West utililized his established ground control stationing of 4+65.3 in physically locating it.

Nevertheless, the SS as well as the FBI survey plats, to include the notes of the SS, to include Mr. West's survey notes, give us the third shot impact as being approximately 30-feet farther down Elm St. at survey stationing 4+95. (what was actually surveyed in).

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So! In addition to the actual survey stationing/aka distance measurement from the crosswalk way back at Main & Houston St.,

Mr. West also drove nails into Elm St. at those locations as determined to be the impact location for the three shots fired, and unless they have been removed, one can, if that enjoy dodging traffic, still physically locate the relatively accurately determined position for each of the three shots fired in the assassination.

In addition, Mr. West made several "tie" references in which the corner of a street curb; projected wall of a building, etc; also iintersected the street at a specific stationing number.

All of which means that one could, with Mr. West survey notes, re-establish with considerable accuracy all of those positions located during any of the four varioius survey's conducted in Dealey Plaza.

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In your shot scenario is shrapnel from the 2nd (&/or) 3rd shots the cause of John Connelly’s wounds?

It would of course be the accomplishment of a lifetime were it to be "MY" shot scenario!

Unfortunately, since I am neither smarter nor more qualified than the SS and FBI to resolved the issues, let's leave it that I am merely knowledgeable enough to know that they were quite qualified to resolve the issues and all that I had to do was figure out what they did.

Shot#1:-------------------------------------Merely lodged into JFK's back due to impaired velocity as a result of having penetrated a limb of the live oak tree located directly in front of the TSDB. The bullet struck in a "base-first" attitude as a result of the end-over-end tumbling due to loss of flight stability as a result of having passed through this limb.

A small cone-shaped/flat-based fragment of lead which was squeezed out the base of this bullet as a result of the external force exerted onto the bullet by the tree limb, was sheared from the base of the bullet as a result of it's base-first impact with the right transverse process of the C7 vertebrae.

This small lead fragment is what exited the anterior throat of JFK and was found in the left rear floorboard along with two other smaller irregular fragments of lead.

The fragment can be seen in the original photograhs of CE840, and it weighed 0.9 grain in weight.

However, the fragment of lead disappeared from the FBI ballistics laboratory prior to evidence being turned over to the National Archives, and in fact was taken and removed from the FBI Lab by William Sullivan.

P.S. After the WC completed their assassination re-enactment work of May 24, 1964, on May 25, 1964, members of the WC assassination re-enactment were observed in a bucket lift, up in the top of the live oak tree, cutting and removing the limbs from the tree.

===================================

Shot#2: This is the Z313 impact to the right, rear, high (Survey Stationing 4+65.3) (Cowlick Entry) of the head of JFk. The bullet severely fragmented primarily as a result of the manner in which it was exiting the skull, and and "irregular fragment of limited velocity" "escaped" and struck JBC in the right wrist.

As well as sending fragments forward to the windshield; windshield molding; and the infamous "Tague" hit.

=====================================

Shot#3: This is the bullet impact which occurred at Survey Stationing 4+95/aka the EOP entry/aka directly in front of James Altgens location.

The bullet penetrated completely through the coat of JFK (entering just below the edge of the coat collar), exited the coat and struck JFK in the neck at the base of the hairline and thereafter "tunnelled" through the soft tissue of the neck to strike the skull of JFK in the EOP region of the skull at a point with was higher* than the entry into the scalp.

*Note: Higher when one is sitting vertically erect! Due to the bent forward position of JFK and the position of his head, this was a downward pathway which the bullet took.

After exiting the frontal portion of JFK's head (where considerable skull loss already existed from the Z313 impact) the bullet continued downward and struck JBC in the right rear shoulder on a DOWNWARD angle.

At the time of impact, JBC was leaning over with his head down in Nellie's lap and his back & shoulder exposed in that area between the jump seats in which he and Nellie had been seated.

The bullet penetrated on a DOWNWARD* angle into the chest, struck the right fifth rib and deflected out of the chest to ultimately enter the left leg (inner thigh) of JBC.

*Note: The slightly elongated wound of entry into JBC (from right to left) could be blamed on some form of bullet instability and/or tumbling if one were of the WC persuasion.

However, since this purported "tumbling" bullet carried with it absollutely no fibers from JBC's coat and shirt, down into the wound of entry, then it is considerably more likely that this "Right to Left" elongated entry is nothing more than an elongated entry DOWNWARD as one leans over into the almost horizontal position.

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Long-winded? Yep!

Answer your questions???????

Tom

Edited September 18, 2008 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In honor and rememberance of Mr. Robert West of Dallas, TX.

Were it not for Mr. West having shared with me his time; his knowledge; his friendship; and his survey works;, few would have any true ideas as to what the factual events in the assassination of JFK actually are.

P.S. The survey notes of Mr. West are also the only place that one can find the actual street elevations for the various surveyed in positions.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0433b.htm

In event that one enjoys "guessing games"!

Then one can take a guess as to which of the three above fragments disappeared from the FBI Ballistics Lab prior to the evidence being turned over to the National Archives.

Hint: It is the one that WAS NOT an irregular shaped fragment, and was in fact the one which weighed 0.9 grain and was cone-shaped with a flat base which measured 4.5mm in width.

[Chris Brown]

Thanks Tom

Long-winded? Yep

Well there’s a lot for me to digest!

Answer your questions???????

Yes I think so. I’ve just had a quick read through during my ‘Tea break’

I will have more time to study it this weekend.

Chris Brown.

[Denis Pointing]

Tom, I realize that in the official version Connally had to be seen to be hit by the second shot, if it was known that Connally had actually been hit by the third shot everyone would have known that at the point of impact he was not only hiding in his wife's lap but also he was, in effect, using her as a human shield. End of political career etc etc. I also see that when news of Tague's cheek "wound" broke (backed up by at least one policeman) the WC had to 'jiggle' their original story around to suite. But wouldn't it have been far simpler to have said Tague had been hit by shrapnel , rather than coming up with the "shot that missed" scenario which of course then had to include the ridiculous and complicated "magic bullet" BS. I know your not a mind reader Tom but have you an opinion on this? Denis

Edited September 20, 2008 by Denis Pointing

[Thomas Graves]

Tom, I realize that in the official version Connally had to be seen to be hit by the second shot, if it was known that Connally had actually been hit by the third shot everyone would have known that at the point of impact he was not only hiding in his wife's lap but also he was, in effect, using her as a human shield. End of political career etc etc. I also see that when news of Tague's cheek "wound" broke (backed up by at least one policeman) the WC had to 'jiggle' their original story around to suite. But wouldn't it have been far simpler to have said Tague had been hit by shrapnel , rather than coming up with the "shot that missed" scenario which of course then had to include the ridiculous and complicated "magic bullet" BS. I know your not a mind reader Tom but have you an opinion on this? Denis

(emphasis added by T. Graves)

____________________________

Hey Denis,

It's "suit," not "suite," and "you're," not "your."

("Sweet!!!!!!" ( LOL) --Thomas) P.S. If it's any consolation, at least I read your posts (sometimes).

Edited September 20, 2008 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I realize that in the official version Connally had to be seen to be hit by the second shot, if it was known that Connally had actually been hit by the third shot everyone would have known that at the point of impact he was not only hiding in his wife's lap but also he was, in effect, using her as a human shield. End of political career etc etc. I also see that when news of Tague's cheek "wound" broke (backed up by at least one policeman) the WC had to 'jiggle' their original story around to suite. But wouldn't it have been far simpler to have said Tague had been hit by shrapnel , rather than coming up with the "shot that missed" scenario which of course then had to include the ridiculous and complicated "magic bullet" BS. I know your not a mind reader Tom but have you an opinion on this? Denis

1. One must first recall that the SS; the FBI; and the WC had immediate access to all medical records of JFK as well as JBC.

In addition, medical personell (Doctors & Nurses) of Parkland had been questioned by the FBI previously to any WC Testimony.

Even with that, it still came out that in the opinion of those who actually operated on JBC, that his wrist wound was created by an irregular fragment of limited velocity which escaped the skull and was responsible for the wound which JBC received to the wrist.

---------------------------------------------------

Mr. SPECTER - Well, if you assume that the trajectory through the President's head was represented by the path of a 6.5-mm. bullet which fragmented upon striking the skull, both the rear and again the top, is it possible that a fragment coming at the rate of 2,000 feet per second from the distance of approximately 160 to 250 feet, could have produced a fragment which then proceeded to strike the Governor's wrist and inflict the damage which you have heretofore described?

Dr. GREGORY - I think it is plausible that the bullet, having struck the President's head, may have broken into more than one fragment. I think you apprised me of the fact that it did, in fact, disperse into a number of fragments, and they took tangential directions from the original path apparently.

Mr. SPECTER - Assuming the fact that the autopsy surgeon presented for the record a statement that the fragments moved forward into the vicinity of the President's right eye, as the diagram shows, that there were approximately 40 star-like fragments running on a line through the head on the trajectory, and that there was substantial fragmentation of the bullet as it passed through the head, what is your view about that?

Dr. GREGORY - I think it is possible that a fragment from that particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm.

Dr. GREGORY - My initial impression was that whatever produced the wound of the wrist was an irregular object,

The size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it is irregular surfaced permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads, and carry them into the wound with it.

Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.

Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?

Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.

Dr. GREGORY - I think it is possible that a fragment from that particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm.

Mr. SPECTER - Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and the second one striking the back side of his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY - The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight---I'll qualify that---a high velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into the wound which it creates.

I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr. Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic material was found in the chest wound.

An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was carried into the wound of the wrist. I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile striking the wrist would not have carried material into it.

================================================================================

One should not forget:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holland.htm

Mr. HOLLAND - Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that [indicating] with his hand out, and another report.

Mr. STERN - With his right hand out?

Mr. HOLLAND - Turning to his right.

Mr. STERN - To his right?

Mr. HOLLAND - And another report rang out

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg

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With that stated, one just may have to question exactly why it would be that Governor Connally is still sitting sufficiently erect to have received a purportedly second bullet impact injury to the wrist from a Z313 fragment, if one were to assume that he had also been previously shot through the chest sufficiently to blow out some 5-inches of the right fifth rib.

In addition, were it to be openly admitted that a fragment from the Z313 impact travelled forward with sufficient velocity to have completely penetrated through the wrist of JBC, having broken the bone of the wrist in it's pathway, then one would also have to assume that additional fragments could have travelled forward with sufficient velocity to have reached the "Tague Impact" vicinity.

As it stood, the windshield crack and the molding dent were quite obviously done by fragments of diminished velocity which would not have had the energy to have created a wound such as that in the wrist of JBC.

So, by blaming the wrist wound of JBC on CE399, this gave the WC the "out" as to some mythological shot that missed and create the seed of doubt that the Tague hit was somehow associated with this mythological being.

When in fact, Tague himself associated it with the SECOND SHOT.

So!

The "Tague Hit", by attempting to eliminate the possibility of it having been associated with the Z313 impact and bullet fragmentation, gave the WC the out that they needed to make up the mythological missed shot.

Unfortunately, most tend to forget to ask the simple question?

In event that JBC was struck by the "Magic Bullet" prior to the Z313 impact, and which bullet purportedly went through his body as well as his wrist, completely breaking the bone of the wrist, then, why:

Is it that in Z313 one can still observe that JBC continues to hold his hat in his hand, with his arm/wrist held out slightly to the right and the hand slightly elevated (just as Hudson had described), when, accourding to the WC, JBC's wrist has been blown all to pieces?

So, and lastly!

Was JBC hit at Z313?-------------Absolutely yes!-----------Hit in the wrist by a bullet fragment from the Z313 impact to the head of JFK.

After which, the smart, as well as reactive thing to do would be to "DUCK"!

[Pat Speer]

Tom, to clarify, at what frame was Connally struck in the back?

[Denis Pointing]

Hey Denis,

It's "suit," not "suite," and "you're," not "your."

("Sweet!!!!!!" ( LOL) --Thomas) P.S. If it's any consolation, at least I read your posts (sometimes).

Mr. Graves, it's a little sad trawling the ED forum looking for spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. Ever thought of taking up a hobby or an interest? Have you considered researching the JFK assassination for instance? P.S. Thanks for reading my posts (sometimes). I really must try to reciprocate.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Denis Pointing

[David G. Healy]

Hey Denis,

It's "suit," not "suite," and "you're," not "your."

("Sweet!!!!!!" ( LOL) --Thomas) P.S. If it's any consolation, at least I read your posts (sometimes).

Mr. Graves, it's a little sad trawling the ED forum looking for spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. Ever thought of taking up a hobby or an interest? Have you considered researching the JFK assassination for instance? P.S. Thanks for reading my posts (sometimes). I really must try to reciprocate.

some might say the same for your research abilities, the Zapruder film comes to mind -- so enjoy son, ENJOY!