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The Zapruder Film


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Guest James H. Fetzer

We have your number, Lamson. Ad hominems are no substitute for logic

and evidence, but are all you have to deploy when you've been exposed.

> What John noticed, however, is that Barb's attempt to suggest that brains

> and gore actually did bulge out to the right front of his location in the limo,

> as the Newmans purportedly observed--when it was actually coming out the

> back of his head--would require that JFK's head be turned dramatically to the

> left (that is, his face be turned sharply toward his left shoulder). Then the

> claim could be made that the Newmans saw brains and gore blown out that was

> coming from the back of his head, WHICH IN THE ZAPRUDER LOOKS LIKE IT IS

> BEING BLOWN OUT TO THE RIGHT FRONT! That is quite a stretch for those of

> us who understand the evidence, but in a situation like this, it is not surprising

> to see those who want to defend Zapruder authenticity, including Tink, Miller,

> Lamson, Barb, Shackelford and Kelly, among others, to grasp after straws.

I appreciate your hack attacks, however, because they afford opportunities

to emphasize some of the most important proofs that the film is a fabrication:

----- Forwarded message from jpcostella@hotmail.com -----

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:28:54 +1100

From: John Costella <jpcostella@hotmail.com>

Jim,

I still sit on Tink's side when it comes to the extant Moorman and what camera position

it implies, so make sure that the issues are disentangled.

Re the head wound being inconsistent with the Z film, I think it's beyond doubt. The

explanation I like best is David Lifton's in Best Evidence about the time they got hold

of the clear frames in the early '70s. The GIF sequences of deblurred frames on my

website make it clear for the newcomer, but it really goes back to DSL.

The only argument that Tink and Miller and the others put forward against this is that

somehow JFK's head is massively rotated to the left in 313 and 314, and that we are

seeing the part of his head above his right ear. Ironically, the Moorman polaroid itself

dismisses this idea (if these were all genuine), as it lines up at about Z-315 or Z-316,

and shows that JFK's head is tilted but not spun around as would be required -- and as

you can see from Clip G on my website, his head starts to lift from 314 through to 318

but does not rotate left or right.

Indeed, maybe that's the point of all this Moorman guff. Forget about the pedestal

for the moment, and look at JFK. Place the Moorman next to Zapruder frame 315

or 316, and you have two (allegedly genuine) different views of the same instant

of time. That shows you that the "red blob" that explodes out the front of his head in

the Z-toon is indeed supposed to be coming out of his right temple. If his head had

been rotated massively to the left, we'd be able to see his face in the Moorman --

but we don't.

John

]
As for the actual recreation of the film, which John Costella has documented so throughly in THE GREAT ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX

(2003), please go to assassinationscience.com, and watch John's dissection of the video fakery of the Zapruder film, which is

archived at http://assassinationscience.com/johncostella/jfk/intro/ --because otherwise you simply don't know what you are

talking about. The history of the film is discussed extensively there, where the most important reconstruction may have been

done at LIFE or in Hollywood (read Lifton's brilliant study of the film), but it was technically possible to do what was done here.

Does this include the works by John Costella where he shows how a physist can totally screw up physics?

www.craiglamson.com/costella.htm

Costella's Folly

You need a better source, this guy is a joke.

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We have your number, Lamson. Ad hominems are no substitute for logic

and evidence, but are all you have to deploy when you've been exposed.

Sadly, for you and your sorry little group, Costella has been destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence.

Costella's folly

Now I can understand why you are running away, you learned it from Costella.

Edited by Craig Lamson
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Guest James H. Fetzer

What do your attacks on his past work have to do with the proof to which he

has contributed that Mooman indirectly proofs the Zapruder is a fabrication?

You seem to have a few loose screws. He could be a compulsive alcoholic

or a mental retard, and that would not affect the soundness of this proof.

It is typical of you that you would commit an elementary fallacy I taught

freshmen to avoid in your very feeble attempts to forestall the inevitable:

> What John noticed, however, is that Barb's attempt to suggest that brains

> and gore actually did bulge out to the right front of his location in the limo,

> as the Newmans purportedly observed--when it was actually coming out the

> back of his head--would require that JFK's head be turned dramatically to the

> left (that is, his face be turned sharply toward his left shoulder). Then the

> claim could be made that the Newmans saw brains and gore blown out that was

> coming from the back of his head, WHICH IN THE ZAPRUDER LOOKS LIKE IT IS

> BEING BLOWN OUT TO THE RIGHT FRONT! That is quite a stretch for those of

> us who understand the evidence, but in a situation like this, it is not surprising

> to see those who want to defend Zapruder authenticity, including Tink, Miller,

> Lamson, Barb, Shackelford and Kelly, among others, to grasp after straws.

I appreciate your hack attacks, however, because they afford opportunities

to emphasize some of the most important proofs that the film is a fabrication:

----- Forwarded message from jpcostella@hotmail.com -----

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:28:54 +1100

From: John Costella <jpcostella@hotmail.com>

Jim,

I still sit on Tink's side when it comes to the extant Moorman and what camera position

it implies, so make sure that the issues are disentangled.

Re the head wound being inconsistent with the Z film, I think it's beyond doubt. The

explanation I like best is David Lifton's in Best Evidence about the time they got hold

of the clear frames in the early '70s. The GIF sequences of deblurred frames on my

website make it clear for the newcomer, but it really goes back to DSL.

The only argument that Tink and Miller and the others put forward against this is that

somehow JFK's head is massively rotated to the left in 313 and 314, and that we are

seeing the part of his head above his right ear. Ironically, the Moorman polaroid itself

dismisses this idea (if these were all genuine), as it lines up at about Z-315 or Z-316,

and shows that JFK's head is tilted but not spun around as would be required -- and as

you can see from Clip G on my website, his head starts to lift from 314 through to 318

but does not rotate left or right.

Indeed, maybe that's the point of all this Moorman guff. Forget about the pedestal

for the moment, and look at JFK. Place the Moorman next to Zapruder frame 315

or 316, and you have two (allegedly genuine) different views of the same instant

of time. That shows you that the "red blob" that explodes out the front of his head in

the Z-toon is indeed supposed to be coming out of his right temple. If his head had

been rotated massively to the left, we'd be able to see his face in the Moorman --

but we don't.

John

We have your number, Lamson. Ad hominems are no substitute for logic

and evidence, but are all you have to deploy when you've been exposed.

Sadly, for you and your sorry little group, Costella has been destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence.

Costella's folly

How I can understand why you are running away, you learned it from Costella.

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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What do your attacks on his past work have to do with the proof to which he

has contributed that Mooman indirectly proofs the Zapruder is a fabrication?

You seem to have a few loose screws. He could be a compulsive alcoholic

or a mental retard, and that would not affect the soundness of this proof.

It is typical of you that you would commit an elementary fallacy I taught

freshmen to avoid in your very feeble attempts to forestall the inevitable:

I have a screw loose? You pimp the fantasy conclusions of a physist who can't apply physics in real like and who can't understandf how a simp-le shadow works. You take the faulty conclusions of a hack at photoanalysis and pimp it as a sound proof? Where did you get your degree, in a cracker jack box?

You have no solid proof, just faulty conclusions. As is the usual for you, you simply grasp at any straw in yet again another epic fail.

To observe the competence of Costella:

Costella's folly

Edited by Craig Lamson
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:06:28 -0500

From: jfetzer@d.umn.edu

David and David, Jack and John,

I especially need your opinions on this issue. Am I right or wrong that the

medical evidence, especially of the massive blow-out to the back of the head,

is inconsistent with the Zapruder, which shows a massive blow-out to the right-

front side of the head?

<

<

Assuming that I'm one of the Davids cited, I believe you are right within the strict limits of the question quoted. The "flap" is inconsistent with the Parkland staff's testimonies. It is, though, consistent with disputed autopsy photos, and thus discrepancy makes it suspect.

While the right rear of JFK's head is not exactly "mugging for the camera," as someone put it above, it is the part of JFK's head that, in the angling away of his face, is angled toward the camera. One would expect to see more than a lumpen "shadow" there, and also that the reported backspray onto the trunk and the motorcycle cop would be represented by more than a few of JFK's cowlick hairs out of place. Those few hairs that some researchers point to, however, do bolster medical testimony that the back of the head was "sprung open," with the rear skull in pieces under the hinging top rear scalp, as some readings of the available X-rays state.

This may confuse the issue, or my reputation here, in several ways, but... Once while watching the stabilized Z-film on Youtube (I have also seen Z projected and on DVD), I paused the film to study the shadow on the right rear head. I decided that the image was best studied in other media, and clicked to exit and start a different clip. In the moment of darkness between clips in the small Youtube frame, I briefly saw an afterimage of the small shadow as a blotch on the screen just before the next clip started. I was not staring at the screen at this time - I had sat back briefly to sip my coffee between films. I'm wondering if some interface effect between the electronics and the eye produces an afterimage of an addition to the original image of the head. I'm wondering, too, if this effect can be repeated under technical study of the image on film or in digitization.

The "Davids" quoted are David LIFTON and David MANTIK.

Jack

***************

David Andrews:

This article may help in understanding what the Parkland Medical authorities saw...on

Nov.22/63....Their first Report...

The following is information from

"Three Patients at Parkland"

an article in the...

"Texas State Journal of Medicine, dated January 1964.

Written in late November / early December,1963...before the official story was set in stone, and the authourities had returned to speak with the Doctors of Parkland, and show them the autopsy findings of Bethesda......

Charles J Carrico -

Dr. Carrico was the first physician to see the President. A 1961 graduate

of Southwestern Medical School, he is 28 and a resident in surgery at Parkland.

He reported that when the patient entered the emergency room on an ambulance carriage he had

slow agonal respiratory efforts and occasional cardiac beats detectable by auscultation.

Two

external wounds were noted; one a small wound of the anterior neck in the lower one third. The

other wound had caused avulsion of the occipitoparietal calvarium and shredded brain tissue was

present with profuse oozing.

No pulse or blood pressure were present. Pupils were bilaterally

dilated and fixed. A cuffed endotracheal tube was inserted through the laryngoscope. A ragged

wound of the trachea was seen immediately below the larynx. The tube was advanced past the

laceration and the cuff inflated. Respiration was instituted using a respirator assistor on

automatic cycling. Concurrently, an intravenous infusion of lactated Ringer's solution was

begun via catheter placed in the right leg. Blood was drawn for typing and cross -matching. Type

0 Rh negative blood was obtained immediately.

In view of the tracheal injury and diminished breath sounds in the right chest, tracheostomy

was performed by Dr. Malcolm 0. Perry and bilateral chest tubes inserted. A second intravenous

infusion was begun in the left arm. In addition, Dr. M. T. Jenkins began respiration with the

anesthesia machine, cardiac monitor and stimulator attached. Solu-Cortef (300 mg.) was given

intravenously. Despite those measures, blood pressure never returned. Only brief

electrocardiographic evidence of cardiac activity was obtained.

Malcolm 0. Perry -

Dr. Perry is an assistant professor of surgery at Southwestern Medical

School from which he received his degree in 1955. He is 34 years old and was certified by the

American Board of Surgery in 1963.

At the time of initial examination of the President, Dr. Perry has stated, the patient was

noted to be non-responsive . His eyes were deviated and the pupils dilated. A considerable

quantity of blood was noted on the patient, the carriage, and the floor.

A small wound was

noted in the midline of the neck in the lower third anteriorly. It was exuding blood slowly. A

large wound of the right posterior cranium was noted, exposing severely lacerated brain. Brain

tissue was noted in the blood at the head of the carriage.

Pulse or heart beat were not detectable but slow spasmodic respiration was noted. An

endotracheal tube was in place and respiration was being controlled. An intravenous infusion

was being placed in the leg. While additional venesections were done to administer fluids and

blood, a tracheostomy was effected. A right lateral injury to the trachea was noted. The

cuffed tracheostomy tube was put in place as the endotracheal tube was withdrawn and

respirations continued. Closed chest cardiac massage was instituted after placement of

sealed-drainage chest tubes, but without benefit. When electrocardiogram evaluation revealed

that no detectable electrical activity existed in the heart, resuscitative attempts were

abandoned. The team of physicians determined that the patient had expired.

Charles R. Baxter

- Dr. Baxter is an assistant professor of surgery at Southwestern Medical

School where he first arrived as a medical student in 1950. Except for two years away in the

Army he has been at Southwestern and Parkland ever since, moving up from student to intern to

resident to faculty member. He is 34 and was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1963.

Recalling his attendance to President Kennedy, he says he learned at approximately 12 :35

that the President was on the way to the emergency room and that he had been shot. When Dr.

Baxter arrived in the emergency room, he found an endotracheal tube in place and respirations

being assisted. A left chest tube was being inserted and cut-downs were functioning in one leg

and in the left arm.

The President had a wound in the midline of the neck. On first

observation of the other wounds, portions of the right temporal and occipital bones were missing

and some of the brain was lying on the table. The rest of the brain was extensively macerated

and contused.

The pupils were fixed and deviated laterally and were dilated. No pulse was

detectable and ineffectual respirations were being assisted. A tracheostomy was performed by

Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter and a chest tube was inserted into the right chest (second interspace

anteriorly). Meanwhile one pint of O negative blood was administered without response. When

all of these measures were complete, no heart beat could be detected. Closed chest massage was

performed until a cardioscope could be attached. Brief cardiac activity was obtained followed

by no activity. Due to the extensive and irreparable brain damage which existed and since there

were no signs of life, no further attempts were made at resuscitation.

Robert N. McClelland -

Dr. McClelland, 34, assistant professor of surgery at Southwestern

Medical School, is a graduate of the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston. He has

served with the Air Force in Germany and was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1963.

Regarding the assassination of President Kennedy, Dr. McClelland says that at approximately

12:35 p.m. he was called from the second floor of the hospital to the emergency room. When he

arrived, President Kennedy was being attended by Drs. Perry, Baxter, Carrico, and Ronald Jones,

chief resident in surgery. The President was at that time comatose from a massive gunshot wound

of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea. An endotracheal tube had been placed and

assisted respiration started by Dr. Carrico who was on duty in the emergency room when the

President arrived. Drs. Perry, Baxter, and McClelland performed a tracheostomy for respiratory

distress and tracheal injury. Dr. Jones and Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of surgery, ;

inserted bilateral anterior chest tubes for pneumothoraces secondary to the tracheo-mediastinal

injury. Dr. Jones and assistants had started three cutdowns, giving blood and fluids

immediately. In spite of this, the President was pronounced dead at 1:00 p.m. by Dr. Clark, the

neurosurgeon, who arrived immediately after Dr. McClelland.

The cause of death, according to

Dr. McClelland was the massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the right side of

the head.

The President was pronounced dead after external cardiac massage failed and

electrocardiographic activity was gone.

Fouad A, Bashour

- Dr. Bashour received his medical education at the University of Beirut

School of Medicine in Lebanon. He is 39 and an associate professor of medicine in cardiology at

Southwestern Medical School.

At 12 :50 p.m. Dr. Bashour was called from the first floor of the hospital and told that

President Kennedy had been shot. He and Dr. Donald Seldin, professor and chairman of the

Department of Internal Medicine, went to the emergency room. Upon examination, they found that

the President had no pulsations, no heart beats, no blood pressure. The oscilloscope showed a

complete standstill. The President was declared dead at 1:00 p.m.

William Kemp Clark

- Dr. Clark is associate professor and chairman of the Division of

Neurosurgery at Southwestern Medical School. The 38-year-old physician has done research on

head injuries and has been at Southwestern since 1956.

He reports this account of the President's treatment:

The President arrived at the emergency room entrance in the back seat of his limousine.

Governor Connally of Texas was also in this car.

The first physician to see the President was

Dr. Carrico

.

Dr. Carrico noted the President to have slow, agonal respiratory efforts. He could hear a

heart beat but found no pulse or blood pressure.

Two external wounds, one in the lower third of

the anterior neck, the other in the occipital region of the skull, were noted. Through the head

wound, blood and brain were extruding.

Dr. Carrico inserted a cuffed endotracheal tube and

while doing so, he noted a ragged wound of the trachea immediately below the larynx.

At this time, Drs. Perry, Baxter, and Jones arrived.

Immediately thereafter, Dr. Jenkins and

Drs. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., and Jackie H. Hunt, two other staff anesthesiologists, arrived. The

endotracheal tube had been connected to a respirator to assist the President's breathing. An

anesthesia machine was substituted for this by Dr. Jenkins. Only 100 per cent oxygen was

administered.

A cutdown was performed in the right ankle, and a polyethylene catheter inserted in the vein.

An infusion of lactated Ringer's solution was begun. Blood was drawn for typing and

crossmatching, but unmatched type O Rh negative blood was immediately obtained and begun.

Hydrocortisone (300

mg.) was added to the intravenous fluids.

Dr. McClelland arrived to help in the President's care. Drs. Perry, Baxter, and McClelland

did a tracheostomy. Considerable quantities of blood were present in the President's oral

pharynx. At this time, Dr. Peters and Dr. Clark arrived.

Dr. Clark noted that the President had bled profusely from the back of the head. There was a

large (3 by 3 cm.) amount of cerebral tissue present on the cart. There was a smaller amount of

cerebellar tissue present also.

The tracheostomy was completed and the endotracheal tube was withdrawn. Suction was used to

remove blood in the oral pharynx. A nasogastric tube was passed into the stomach. Because of

the likelihood of mediastinal injury, anterior chest tubes were placed in both pleural spaces.

These were connected to sealed underwater drainage.

Neurological examination revealed the President's pupils to be widely dilated and fixed to

light. His eyes were divergent, being deviated outward; a skew deviation from the horizontal

was present. No deep tendon reflexes or spontaneous movements were found.

When Dr. Clark noted that there was no carotid pulse, he began closed chest massage. A pulse

was obtained at the carotid and femoral levels.

Dr. Perry then took over the cardiac massage so that

Dr. Clark could evaluate the head wound.

There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region.

Much of the right posterior skull, at brief examination, appeared gone. The previously

described extruding brain was present. Profuse bleeding had occurred and 1500 cc. of blood was

estimated to be on the drapes and floor of the emergency operating room. Both cerebral and

cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound.

By this time an electrocardiograph was hooked up. There was brief electrical activity of the

heart which soon stopped.

The President was pronounced dead at 1:00 p.m. by Dr. Clark.

M. T. Jenkins

- Dr. Jenkins is professor and chairman of the Department of Anesthesiology at

Southwestern Medical School. He is 46, a graduate of the University of Texas Medical Branch in

Galveston, and was certified by the American Board of Anesthesiology in 1952. During World War

II he served in the Navy as a lieutenant commander.

When Dr. Jenkins was notified that the President was being brought to the emergency room at

Parkland, he dispatched Drs. Giesecke and Hunt with an anesthesia machine and resuscitative

equipment to the major surgical emergency room area. He ran downstairs to find upon his arrival

in the emergency operating room that Dr. Carrico had begun resuscitative efforts by introducing

an orotracheal tube, connecting it for controlled ventilation to a Bennett intermittent positive

pressure breathing apparatus. Drs. Baxter, Perry, and McClelland arrived at the same time and

began a tracheostomy and started the insertion of a right chest tube, since there was also

obvious tracheal and chest damage. Drs. Peters and Clark arrived simultaneously and immediately

thereafter assisted respectively with the insertion of the right chest tube and with manual

closed chest cardiac compression to assure circulation. Dr. Jenkins believes it evidence of the

clear thinking of the resuscitative team that the patient received 300 mg. hydrocortisone

intravenously in the first few minutes.

For better control of artificial ventilation, Dr. Jenkins exchanged the intermittent positive

pressure breathing apparatus for an anesthesia machine and continued artificial ventilation.

Dr. Gene Akin,

a resident in anesthesiology, and Dr. Giesecke connected a cardioscope to

determine cardiac activity.

During the progress of these activities, the emergency room cart was elevated at the feet in

order to provide a Trendelenburg position, a venous cutdown was performed on the right saphenous

vein and additional fluids were begun in a vein in the left forearm while blood was ordered from

the blood bank. All of these activities were completed by approximately 12:50 at which time

external cardiac massage was still being carried out effectively by Dr. Clark as judged by a

palpable peripheral pulse. Despite these measures there was only brief electrocardiographic

evidence of cardiac activity.

These described resuscitative activities were indicated as of first importance, and after

they were carried out, attention was turned to other evidences of injury.

There was a great

laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital), causing a great defect in the

skull plate so that there was herniation and laceration of great areas of the brain, even to the

extent that part of the right cerebellum had protruded from the wound.

There were also

fragmented sections of brain on the drapes of the emergency room cart. With the institution of

adequate cardiac compression, there was a great flow of blood from the cranial cavity,

indicating that there was much vascular damage as well as brain tissue damage. President

Kennedy was pronounced dead at 1 p.m.

It is Dr. Jenkins' personal feeling that all methods of resuscitation were instituted

expeditiously and efficiently. However, he says, the cranial and intracranial damage was of

such magnitude as to cause irreversible damage.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

List taken from "Murder In Deaey Plaza"

Dr.J.Fetzer..

The observations of the wounds..

At Parkland...the earliest statements.

.................................................RightRear...........Right Side...........Right Anterior

1. William K.Clark, MD.......................X

2. Robert McClelland, MD.................. X

3. Marion T.Jenkins, MD..................... X

4. Charles J.Carrico, MD.................... X

5. Malcolm Perry, MD...................... . X

6. Ronald C.Jones, MD...................... X

7. Gene Akin, MD..............................X

8. Paul Peters, MD.............................X

9. Charles Crenshaw, MD................... X

10. Charles R.Baxter, MD....................X

11. Robert Grossman, MD...................X.......................X

12. Richard B.Dulany, MD...................X

13.AdolpheGiesecke,MD..................X...........................X............

.............X

14. Fouad Bashour, MD......................X

15.Kenneth E.Salyer Kenneth E. Salyer MD....................X..........................X......................X

16. Pat Hutton, RN.............................X

17. Doris Nelson, RN..........................X

18. William Greer, SS........................X

19. Clinton J.Hill, SS..........................X

20. Diana Hamilton Bowron, RN..........X

21, William Midgett............................X........................X

What do we see in the Zapruder film…..?.. A huge blown out wound to the right, front, top of the head, ?? and a the appearance of a shadowed blackened area within the back of his head....where the staff of the Parkland Hospital reported the blown out back head wound ....

It is Not What is Seen in the Zapruder Film.....it is what is Not seen…

We look to the Zapruder film..and we see,

No blown out wound at the back of the head, be it tangential or avulsive.........

Parkland did not see nor report a huge blown out right, front, top of the head wound....not even Clark..

Yet there it is within the Zapruder film, and not seen within Parkland.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

B..... :tomatoes

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We have your number, Lamson. Ad hominems are no substitute for logic

and evidence, but are all you have to deploy when you've been exposed.

Sadly, for you and your sorry little group, Costella has been destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence.

Costella's folly

Now I can understand why you are running away, you learned it from Costella.

"destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence"? An essay written by Bab's, Tink and Wild Bill Miller, ya gotta be kidding me.... Actually, over-the-years Dr. John Costella has made mince-meat out of anyone feigning qualifications that has debated him, your wishful thinking aside...

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Share on other sites

We have your number, Lamson. Ad hominems are no substitute for logic

and evidence, but are all you have to deploy when you've been exposed.

Sadly, for you and your sorry little group, Costella has been destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence.

Costella's folly

Now I can understand why you are running away, you learned it from Costella.

"destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence"? An essay written by Bab's, Tink and Wild Bill Miller, ya gotta be kidding me.... Actually, over-the-years Dr. John Costella has made mince-meat out of anyone feigning qualifications that has debated him, your wishful thinking aside...

What, reading beyond your education level David?

Costella's Folly....read it Healy and you might actually learn something

Edited by Craig Lamson
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We have your number, Lamson. Ad hominems are no substitute for logic

and evidence, but are all you have to deploy when you've been exposed.

Sadly, for you and your sorry little group, Costella has been destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence.

Costella's folly

Now I can understand why you are running away, you learned it from Costella.

"destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence"? An essay written by Bab's, Tink and Wild Bill Miller, ya gotta be kidding me.... Actually, over-the-years Dr. John Costella has made mince-meat out of anyone feigning qualifications that has debated him, your wishful thinking aside...

What, reading beyond your education level David?

Costella's Folly....read it Healy and you might actually learn something

ya might as well send along a url for the WCR, Craigster.... LMFAO! They did get the date, place and time of the assassination correct though

Try this and tell me the wrongs that need righting?

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...hoax/index.html

Ya have a tough time, I'm sure Wild Bill can pull your fat out of the fire. And for all those with a 1.5GPA and below, I could care less about the Moorman #5 photo, its a canard, canard of diversion, only the latest that fear throws up stalling the truth. :tomatoes

Edited by David G. Healy
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We have your number, Lamson. Ad hominems are no substitute for logic

and evidence, but are all you have to deploy when you've been exposed.

Sadly, for you and your sorry little group, Costella has been destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence.

Costella's folly

Now I can understand why you are running away, you learned it from Costella.

"destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence"? An essay written by Bab's, Tink and Wild Bill Miller, ya gotta be kidding me.... Actually, over-the-years Dr. John Costella has made mince-meat out of anyone feigning qualifications that has debated him, your wishful thinking aside...

What, reading beyond your education level David?

Costella's Folly....read it Healy and you might actually learn something

ya might as well send along a url for the WCR, Craigster.... LMFAO! They did get the date, place and time of the assassination correct though

Try this and tell me the wrongs that need righting?

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...hoax/index.html

Ya have a tough time, I'm sure Wild Bill can pull your fat out of the fire. And for all those with a 1.5GPA and below, I could care less about the Moorman #5 photo, its a canard, canard of diversion, only the latest that fear throws up stalling the truth. :tomatoes

Is that the best you can do David? Clearly you can't be this utterly ignorant. Like your pal Fetzer, you seem to be pimping for Costella without even checking to see if he knows what he is talking about. Or perhaps you can tell us how you know his work is correct? If you want to know what needs correcting you must have lost your ability to read. But given the quality of your posts here, that is no longer in doubt , at least to me.

My work will stand David, take your best shot.

Edited by Craig Lamson
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"destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence"? An essay written by Bab's, Tink and Wild Bill Miller, ya gotta be kidding me.... Actually, over-the-years Dr. John Costella has made mince-meat out of anyone feigning qualifications that has debated him, your wishful thinking aside...

David, if Costella is so sharp, then why did it take so many years after the fact before he finally understood the laws of nature over perspective and how it applied with the data he had concerning those passing cycles? After all, while you are recalling him making mince-meat out of Bill Miller ... it seems that in the end he agreed with my reading of Moorman's photo.

Try this and tell me the wrongs that need righting?

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...hoax/index.html

Ya have a tough time, I'm sure Wild Bill can pull your fat out of the fire. And for all those with a 1.5GPA and below, I could care less about the Moorman #5 photo, its a canard, canard of diversion, only the latest that fear throws up stalling the truth. :tomatoes

Two things to note here ... One is that you are asking what needs righting pertaining to the link - How about the fact that after you (David) read Hoax ... you then told this forum that you have seen NO PROOF of alteration.

The second thing concerns your remark pertaining to stalling the truth. As I recall ... you have been preaching for years that if YOU could examine the said in-camera Zapruder original film, then we could find out if it was altered or not. You have been asked to make a request to the national archives over a year ago asking that you be allowed to examine the film. Instead you continue to hang out on the forums and just make say-nothing go-nowhere responses rather than getting down to business and settling the matter once and for all. Now tell us again just who it is that seems to be stalling???

Bill Miller

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The first version of the Z-fraud was shown on US TV on the evening/early morning of November 25/26. It included the left turn from Houston onto Elm; the first impact to Kennedy was not obscured by a street sign; and the wound to Connolly's chest was clearly visible.

Paul

Paul - No axe to grind, but what is the source for this?

Thanks,

David

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We have your number, Lamson. Ad hominems are no substitute for logic

and evidence, but are all you have to deploy when you've been exposed.

Sadly, for you and your sorry little group, Costella has been destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence.

Costella's folly

Now I can understand why you are running away, you learned it from Costella.

"destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence"? An essay written by Bab's, Tink and Wild Bill Miller, ya gotta be kidding me.... Actually, over-the-years Dr. John Costella has made mince-meat out of anyone feigning qualifications that has debated him, your wishful thinking aside...

What, reading beyond your education level David?

Costella's Folly....read it Healy and you might actually learn something

ya might as well send along a url for the WCR, Craigster.... LMFAO! They did get the date, place and time of the assassination correct though

Try this and tell me the wrongs that need righting?

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...hoax/index.html

Ya have a tough time, I'm sure Wild Bill can pull your fat out of the fire. And for all those with a 1.5GPA and below, I could care less about the Moorman #5 photo, its a canard, canard of diversion, only the latest that fear throws up stalling the truth. :tomatoes

Is that the best you can do David? Clearly you can't be this utterly ignorant. Like your pal Fetzer, you seem to be pimping for Costella without even checking to see if he knows what he is talking about. Or perhaps you can tell us how you know his work is correct? If you want to know what needs correcting you must have lost your ability to read. But given the quality of your posts here, that is no longer in doubt , at least to me.

My work will stand David, take your best shot.

what you think Craig, what you AND other people *seem* to think is totally irrelevant -- what Wild Bill Miller thinks is a waste of my valuable time.

Ya want a pissing match with Dr. John Costella, challenge him, gird those loins and get it on.... I'll watch! He doesn't want to play, that's his decision... who could blame him, past experience shows he cleaned everyone of the Gangs clock 5 years ago. (see below)

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...hoax/index.html

and THAT friends and neighbors is/was the best the Lone Nuttesr have, AND had

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We have your number, Lamson. Ad hominems are no substitute for logic

and evidence, but are all you have to deploy when you've been exposed.

Sadly, for you and your sorry little group, Costella has been destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence.

Costella's folly

Now I can understand why you are running away, you learned it from Costella.

"destroyed here by solid and unimpeachable empirical evidence"? An essay written by Bab's, Tink and Wild Bill Miller, ya gotta be kidding me.... Actually, over-the-years Dr. John Costella has made mince-meat out of anyone feigning qualifications that has debated him, your wishful thinking aside...

What, reading beyond your education level David?

Costella's Folly....read it Healy and you might actually learn something

ya might as well send along a url for the WCR, Craigster.... LMFAO! They did get the date, place and time of the assassination correct though

Try this and tell me the wrongs that need righting?

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...hoax/index.html

Ya have a tough time, I'm sure Wild Bill can pull your fat out of the fire. And for all those with a 1.5GPA and below, I could care less about the Moorman #5 photo, its a canard, canard of diversion, only the latest that fear throws up stalling the truth. :tomatoes

Is that the best you can do David? Clearly you can't be this utterly ignorant. Like your pal Fetzer, you seem to be pimping for Costella without even checking to see if he knows what he is talking about. Or perhaps you can tell us how you know his work is correct? If you want to know what needs correcting you must have lost your ability to read. But given the quality of your posts here, that is no longer in doubt , at least to me.

My work will stand David, take your best shot.

what you think Craig, what you AND other people *seem* to think is totally irrelevant -- what Wild Bill Miller thinks is a waste of my valuable time.

Ya want a pissing match with Dr. John Costella, challenge him, gird those loins and get it on.... I'll watch! He doesn't want to play, that's his decision... who could blame him, past experience shows he cleaned everyone of the Gangs clock 5 years ago. (see below)

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...hoax/index.html

and THAT friends and neighbors is/was the best the Lone Nuttesr have, AND had

So Costella wants to hide away? How typical. He's a loser on this one and he knows it. The empirical evidence is unimpeachable. Whats he gonna do? Admit he is a physicist who can't get basic real world physics correct? Quite the 'player' LOL! He's DONE! You guys are toast.

SO how about you davie? You believe Costella? You believe in his "impossible" angle change? Put yourself on the line dude...whats the truth?

I'm here, so is my evidence. Maybe you can find a REAL scientist that can make your case. The one you have is a joke.

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:06:28 -0500

From: jfetzer@d.umn.edu

David and David, Jack and John,

I especially need your opinions on this issue. Am I right or wrong that the

medical evidence, especially of the massive blow-out to the back of the head,

is inconsistent with the Zapruder, which shows a massive blow-out to the right-

front side of the head?

<

<

Assuming that I'm one of the Davids cited, I believe you are right within the strict limits of the question quoted. The "flap" is inconsistent with the Parkland staff's testimonies. It is, though, consistent with disputed autopsy photos, and thus discrepancy makes it suspect.

While the right rear of JFK's head is not exactly "mugging for the camera," as someone put it above, it is the part of JFK's head that, in the angling away of his face, is angled toward the camera. One would expect to see more than a lumpen "shadow" there, and also that the reported backspray onto the trunk and the motorcycle cop would be represented by more than a few of JFK's cowlick hairs out of place. Those few hairs that some researchers point to, however, do bolster medical testimony that the back of the head was "sprung open," with the rear skull in pieces under the hinging top rear scalp, as some readings of the available X-rays state.

This may confuse the issue, or my reputation here, in several ways, but... Once while watching the stabilized Z-film on Youtube (I have also seen Z projected and on DVD), I paused the film to study the shadow on the right rear head. I decided that the image was best studied in other media, and clicked to exit and start a different clip. In the moment of darkness between clips in the small Youtube frame, I briefly saw an afterimage of the small shadow as a blotch on the screen just before the next clip started. I was not staring at the screen at this time - I had sat back briefly to sip my coffee between films. I'm wondering if some interface effect between the electronics and the eye produces an afterimage of an addition to the original image of the head. I'm wondering, too, if this effect can be repeated under technical study of the image on film or in digitization.

The "Davids" quoted are David LIFTON and David MANTIK.

Jack

***************

David Andrews:

This article may help in understanding what the Parkland Medical authorities saw...on

Nov.22/63....Their first Report...

The following is information from

"Three Patients at Parkland"

an article in the...

"Texas State Journal of Medicine, dated January 1964.

Written in late November / early December,1963...before the official story was set in stone, and the authourities had returned to speak with the Doctors of Parkland, and show them the autopsy findings of Bethesda......

Charles J Carrico -

Dr. Carrico was the first physician to see the President. A 1961 graduate

of Southwestern Medical School, he is 28 and a resident in surgery at Parkland.

He reported that when the patient entered the emergency room on an ambulance carriage he had

slow agonal respiratory efforts and occasional cardiac beats detectable by auscultation.

Two

external wounds were noted; one a small wound of the anterior neck in the lower one third. The

other wound had caused avulsion of the occipitoparietal calvarium and shredded brain tissue was

present with profuse oozing.

No pulse or blood pressure were present. Pupils were bilaterally

dilated and fixed. A cuffed endotracheal tube was inserted through the laryngoscope. A ragged

wound of the trachea was seen immediately below the larynx. The tube was advanced past the

laceration and the cuff inflated. Respiration was instituted using a respirator assistor on

automatic cycling. Concurrently, an intravenous infusion of lactated Ringer's solution was

begun via catheter placed in the right leg. Blood was drawn for typing and cross -matching. Type

0 Rh negative blood was obtained immediately.

In view of the tracheal injury and diminished breath sounds in the right chest, tracheostomy

was performed by Dr. Malcolm 0. Perry and bilateral chest tubes inserted. A second intravenous

infusion was begun in the left arm. In addition, Dr. M. T. Jenkins began respiration with the

anesthesia machine, cardiac monitor and stimulator attached. Solu-Cortef (300 mg.) was given

intravenously. Despite those measures, blood pressure never returned. Only brief

electrocardiographic evidence of cardiac activity was obtained.

Malcolm 0. Perry -

Dr. Perry is an assistant professor of surgery at Southwestern Medical

School from which he received his degree in 1955. He is 34 years old and was certified by the

American Board of Surgery in 1963.

At the time of initial examination of the President, Dr. Perry has stated, the patient was

noted to be non-responsive . His eyes were deviated and the pupils dilated. A considerable

quantity of blood was noted on the patient, the carriage, and the floor.

A small wound was

noted in the midline of the neck in the lower third anteriorly. It was exuding blood slowly. A

large wound of the right posterior cranium was noted, exposing severely lacerated brain. Brain

tissue was noted in the blood at the head of the carriage.

Pulse or heart beat were not detectable but slow spasmodic respiration was noted. An

endotracheal tube was in place and respiration was being controlled. An intravenous infusion

was being placed in the leg. While additional venesections were done to administer fluids and

blood, a tracheostomy was effected. A right lateral injury to the trachea was noted. The

cuffed tracheostomy tube was put in place as the endotracheal tube was withdrawn and

respirations continued. Closed chest cardiac massage was instituted after placement of

sealed-drainage chest tubes, but without benefit. When electrocardiogram evaluation revealed

that no detectable electrical activity existed in the heart, resuscitative attempts were

abandoned. The team of physicians determined that the patient had expired.

Charles R. Baxter

- Dr. Baxter is an assistant professor of surgery at Southwestern Medical

School where he first arrived as a medical student in 1950. Except for two years away in the

Army he has been at Southwestern and Parkland ever since, moving up from student to intern to

resident to faculty member. He is 34 and was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1963.

Recalling his attendance to President Kennedy, he says he learned at approximately 12 :35

that the President was on the way to the emergency room and that he had been shot. When Dr.

Baxter arrived in the emergency room, he found an endotracheal tube in place and respirations

being assisted. A left chest tube was being inserted and cut-downs were functioning in one leg

and in the left arm.

The President had a wound in the midline of the neck. On first

observation of the other wounds, portions of the right temporal and occipital bones were missing

and some of the brain was lying on the table. The rest of the brain was extensively macerated

and contused.

The pupils were fixed and deviated laterally and were dilated. No pulse was

detectable and ineffectual respirations were being assisted. A tracheostomy was performed by

Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter and a chest tube was inserted into the right chest (second interspace

anteriorly). Meanwhile one pint of O negative blood was administered without response. When

all of these measures were complete, no heart beat could be detected. Closed chest massage was

performed until a cardioscope could be attached. Brief cardiac activity was obtained followed

by no activity. Due to the extensive and irreparable brain damage which existed and since there

were no signs of life, no further attempts were made at resuscitation.

Robert N. McClelland -

Dr. McClelland, 34, assistant professor of surgery at Southwestern

Medical School, is a graduate of the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston. He has

served with the Air Force in Germany and was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1963.

Regarding the assassination of President Kennedy, Dr. McClelland says that at approximately

12:35 p.m. he was called from the second floor of the hospital to the emergency room. When he

arrived, President Kennedy was being attended by Drs. Perry, Baxter, Carrico, and Ronald Jones,

chief resident in surgery. The President was at that time comatose from a massive gunshot wound

of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea. An endotracheal tube had been placed and

assisted respiration started by Dr. Carrico who was on duty in the emergency room when the

President arrived. Drs. Perry, Baxter, and McClelland performed a tracheostomy for respiratory

distress and tracheal injury. Dr. Jones and Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of surgery, ;

inserted bilateral anterior chest tubes for pneumothoraces secondary to the tracheo-mediastinal

injury. Dr. Jones and assistants had started three cutdowns, giving blood and fluids

immediately. In spite of this, the President was pronounced dead at 1:00 p.m. by Dr. Clark, the

neurosurgeon, who arrived immediately after Dr. McClelland.

The cause of death, according to

Dr. McClelland was the massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the right side of

the head.

The President was pronounced dead after external cardiac massage failed and

electrocardiographic activity was gone.

Fouad A, Bashour

- Dr. Bashour received his medical education at the University of Beirut

School of Medicine in Lebanon. He is 39 and an associate professor of medicine in cardiology at

Southwestern Medical School.

At 12 :50 p.m. Dr. Bashour was called from the first floor of the hospital and told that

President Kennedy had been shot. He and Dr. Donald Seldin, professor and chairman of the

Department of Internal Medicine, went to the emergency room. Upon examination, they found that

the President had no pulsations, no heart beats, no blood pressure. The oscilloscope showed a

complete standstill. The President was declared dead at 1:00 p.m.

William Kemp Clark

- Dr. Clark is associate professor and chairman of the Division of

Neurosurgery at Southwestern Medical School. The 38-year-old physician has done research on

head injuries and has been at Southwestern since 1956.

He reports this account of the President's treatment:

The President arrived at the emergency room entrance in the back seat of his limousine.

Governor Connally of Texas was also in this car.

The first physician to see the President was

Dr. Carrico

.

Dr. Carrico noted the President to have slow, agonal respiratory efforts. He could hear a

heart beat but found no pulse or blood pressure.

Two external wounds, one in the lower third of

the anterior neck, the other in the occipital region of the skull, were noted. Through the head

wound, blood and brain were extruding.

Dr. Carrico inserted a cuffed endotracheal tube and

while doing so, he noted a ragged wound of the trachea immediately below the larynx.

At this time, Drs. Perry, Baxter, and Jones arrived.

Immediately thereafter, Dr. Jenkins and

Drs. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., and Jackie H. Hunt, two other staff anesthesiologists, arrived. The

endotracheal tube had been connected to a respirator to assist the President's breathing. An

anesthesia machine was substituted for this by Dr. Jenkins. Only 100 per cent oxygen was

administered.

A cutdown was performed in the right ankle, and a polyethylene catheter inserted in the vein.

An infusion of lactated Ringer's solution was begun. Blood was drawn for typing and

crossmatching, but unmatched type O Rh negative blood was immediately obtained and begun.

Hydrocortisone (300

mg.) was added to the intravenous fluids.

Dr. McClelland arrived to help in the President's care. Drs. Perry, Baxter, and McClelland

did a tracheostomy. Considerable quantities of blood were present in the President's oral

pharynx. At this time, Dr. Peters and Dr. Clark arrived.

Dr. Clark noted that the President had bled profusely from the back of the head. There was a

large (3 by 3 cm.) amount of cerebral tissue present on the cart. There was a smaller amount of

cerebellar tissue present also.

The tracheostomy was completed and the endotracheal tube was withdrawn. Suction was used to

remove blood in the oral pharynx. A nasogastric tube was passed into the stomach. Because of

the likelihood of mediastinal injury, anterior chest tubes were placed in both pleural spaces.

These were connected to sealed underwater drainage.

Neurological examination revealed the President's pupils to be widely dilated and fixed to

light. His eyes were divergent, being deviated outward; a skew deviation from the horizontal

was present. No deep tendon reflexes or spontaneous movements were found.

When Dr. Clark noted that there was no carotid pulse, he began closed chest massage. A pulse

was obtained at the carotid and femoral levels.

Dr. Perry then took over the cardiac massage so that

Dr. Clark could evaluate the head wound.

There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region.

Much of the right posterior skull, at brief examination, appeared gone. The previously

described extruding brain was present. Profuse bleeding had occurred and 1500 cc. of blood was

estimated to be on the drapes and floor of the emergency operating room. Both cerebral and

cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound.

By this time an electrocardiograph was hooked up. There was brief electrical activity of the

heart which soon stopped.

The President was pronounced dead at 1:00 p.m. by Dr. Clark.

M. T. Jenkins

- Dr. Jenkins is professor and chairman of the Department of Anesthesiology at

Southwestern Medical School. He is 46, a graduate of the University of Texas Medical Branch in

Galveston, and was certified by the American Board of Anesthesiology in 1952. During World War

II he served in the Navy as a lieutenant commander.

When Dr. Jenkins was notified that the President was being brought to the emergency room at

Parkland, he dispatched Drs. Giesecke and Hunt with an anesthesia machine and resuscitative

equipment to the major surgical emergency room area. He ran downstairs to find upon his arrival

in the emergency operating room that Dr. Carrico had begun resuscitative efforts by introducing

an orotracheal tube, connecting it for controlled ventilation to a Bennett intermittent positive

pressure breathing apparatus. Drs. Baxter, Perry, and McClelland arrived at the same time and

began a tracheostomy and started the insertion of a right chest tube, since there was also

obvious tracheal and chest damage. Drs. Peters and Clark arrived simultaneously and immediately

thereafter assisted respectively with the insertion of the right chest tube and with manual

closed chest cardiac compression to assure circulation. Dr. Jenkins believes it evidence of the

clear thinking of the resuscitative team that the patient received 300 mg. hydrocortisone

intravenously in the first few minutes.

For better control of artificial ventilation, Dr. Jenkins exchanged the intermittent positive

pressure breathing apparatus for an anesthesia machine and continued artificial ventilation.

Dr. Gene Akin,

a resident in anesthesiology, and Dr. Giesecke connected a cardioscope to

determine cardiac activity.

During the progress of these activities, the emergency room cart was elevated at the feet in

order to provide a Trendelenburg position, a venous cutdown was performed on the right saphenous

vein and additional fluids were begun in a vein in the left forearm while blood was ordered from

the blood bank. All of these activities were completed by approximately 12:50 at which time

external cardiac massage was still being carried out effectively by Dr. Clark as judged by a

palpable peripheral pulse. Despite these measures there was only brief electrocardiographic

evidence of cardiac activity.

These described resuscitative activities were indicated as of first importance, and after

they were carried out, attention was turned to other evidences of injury.

There was a great

laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital), causing a great defect in the

skull plate so that there was herniation and laceration of great areas of the brain, even to the

extent that part of the right cerebellum had protruded from the wound.

There were also

fragmented sections of brain on the drapes of the emergency room cart. With the institution of

adequate cardiac compression, there was a great flow of blood from the cranial cavity,

indicating that there was much vascular damage as well as brain tissue damage. President

Kennedy was pronounced dead at 1 p.m.

It is Dr. Jenkins' personal feeling that all methods of resuscitation were instituted

expeditiously and efficiently. However, he says, the cranial and intracranial damage was of

such magnitude as to cause irreversible damage.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

List taken from "Murder In Deaey Plaza"

Dr.J.Fetzer..

The observations of the wounds..

At Parkland...the earliest statements.

.................................................RightRear...........Right Side...........Right Anterior

1. William K.Clark, MD.......................X

2. Robert McClelland, MD.................. X

3. Marion T.Jenkins, MD..................... X

4. Charles J.Carrico, MD.................... X

5. Malcolm Perry, MD...................... . X

6. Ronald C.Jones, MD...................... X

7. Gene Akin, MD..............................X

8. Paul Peters, MD.............................X

9. Charles Crenshaw, MD................... X

10. Charles R.Baxter, MD....................X

11. Robert Grossman, MD...................X.......................X

12. Richard B.Dulany, MD...................X

13.AdolpheGiesecke,MD..................X...........................X............

.............X

14. Fouad Bashour, MD......................X

15.Kenneth E.Salyer Kenneth E. Salyer MD....................X..........................X......................X

16. Pat Hutton, RN.............................X

17. Doris Nelson, RN..........................X

18. William Greer, SS........................X

19. Clinton J.Hill, SS..........................X

20. Diana Hamilton Bowron, RN..........X

21, William Midgett............................X........................X

What do we see in the Zapruder film…..?.. A huge blown out wound to the right, front, top of the head, ?? and a the appearance of a shadowed blackened area within the back of his head....where the staff of the Parkland Hospital reported the blown out back head wound ....

It is Not What is Seen in the Zapruder Film.....it is what is Not seen…

We look to the Zapruder film..and we see,

No blown out wound at the back of the head, be it tangential or avulsive.........

Parkland did not see nor report a huge blown out right, front, top of the head wound....not even Clark..

Yet there it is within the Zapruder film, and not seen within Parkland.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

B..... B)

Thanks, B.

And I'd like to bring this thead around to the original question.

What does it tell us?

Those who want to argue whether or not it was altered can do so elsewhere.

If it was altered, I'd like to know when it was altered, I want to know when, before or after the three copies were made?

I'd also like to hear more from those who believe it is unaltered, and what they say it shows and tells us.

Thanks,

Bk

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...

If it was altered, I'd like to know when it was altered, I want to know when, before or after the three copies were made?

...

Thanks,

Bk

Your IF urged me to respond so.... between Nov. 24th and mid-February 1964, when the WC officially saw the film, as a group the first time. AFTER the 3 copies were made. One can reasonably suspect the alleged in-camera original Zapruder film has been altered more since then. Who'd know? The only folks needing to see the Zapruder film (in 1964) that is until Jim Garrison came on scene was the Warren Commission. Plenty of time to tidy up loose ends for that trial...

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