Jump to content
The Education Forum

A Simple, Reasonable Question


Recommended Posts

Why did the conspirators "give" Oswald such a lousy rifle? Were they stupid?

Kathy C

Kathy

I will answer your question first with some questions:

If the conspirators were so stupid why weren't they caught?

You also seem to accept that they "gave" Oswald the rifle. What if they didn't give him the rifle?

What if they found a man who had a rifle and they began following his movements after they knew that he had attempted to kill another human being with that rifle (Walker incident and yes the FBI and the CIA's Richard Helms began tracking his movements shortly after this incident)?

What if the conspirators were smart enough to know that this man who had aquired a rifle and was willing to use it to kill would be willing to kill the President (Belin note where the CIA forensic Psyco docs say they could have predicted Oswald would kill the President IF they had known that he had shot at Walker)?

What if the conspirators could control where the motorcade route would go and could run it past where Oswald was working, would they then need to coverup the fact that they had that information (FBI Agent Hosty's third note, saying exactly where Oswald was working, that was never put into the Warren Commission Record and has never shown up on any CIA docs list although his other two notes do)?

My suggestion is that the conspirators, if they existed, were not "stupid" at all. Any group of conspirators that did exist were both successful and able to fool the American Public!

Jim Root

Edited by Jim Root
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why did the conspirators "give" Oswald such a lousy rifle? Were they stupid?

Kathy C

Kathy

I will answer your question first with some questions:

If the conspirators were so stupid why weren't they caught?

You also seem to accept that they "gave" Oswald the rifle. What if they didn't give him the rifle?

My suggestion is that the conspirators, if they existed, were not "stupid" at all. Any group of conspirators that did exist were both successful and able to fool the American Public!

Jim Root

Ruby was caught, unless you don't think he was involved with the conspiracy to kill Kennedy.

When I say "gave" him the rifle I mean they "found" it on the 6th Floor of TSBD. The damn thing didn't work right, if it worked at all. How could Oswald kill Kennedy from behind with it as the Warren Commission contends? If you're making someone a patsy, at least "find" a decent gun!

They did not fool everybody. There was a poll published that stated the majority of Americans believe there was a shot from the grassy knoll.

Kathy C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oswald, or an operative working alongside Oswald, ordered the rifle from Klein's and the pistol from Seaport Traders as part of a discrete investigation into those merchants the year before, for dispensing guns to Cubans or KKK or mob. Both companies linked to CIA. Other Oswald activities used color him in the press were conducted ostensibly as part of prep for lesser intel ops - perhaps all FPCC activities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kathy, a simple answer to a simple question then, the Mannlicher Carcano wasn't "a lousy weapon", or at least not all of them, if you read some of Tom Purvis's excellent post's you'll find the Carcano Oswald owned was a very adequate weapon indeed.

David Andrews, can you give a citation please to back up the claim that Klein's or Seaport were "linked" to the C.I.A., thanks.

Edited by Denis Pointing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kathy, a simple answer to a simple question then, the Mannlicher Carcano wasn't "a lousy weapon", or at least not all of them, if you read some of Tom Purvis's excellent post's you'll find the Carcano Oswald owned was a very adequate weapon indeed.

David Andrews, can you give a citation please to back up the claim that Klein's or Seaport were "linked" to the C.I.A., thanks.

In Noel Twyman's Bloody Treason, G. P. Hemming cites Klein's as leaking guns to the Caribbean, and Twyman found that Klein's and Seaport were both under investigation for domestic and foreign leakage prior to the assassination. So, companies accommodating one segment of the intel-gunrunning community, investigated by another intel group, and it all ends up in the Hidell ID card in Oswald's pocket.

Do see Twyman for decision on how justified my early-morning-colloquial "linked to" is. A pattern of a company taking money for gunrunning, then being tied into an assassination by a patsy who thinks he's an investigator buying firearms, could constitute "linked to." I did not mean to suggest that these were CIA front companies.

I would like to know whether Richard Case Nagell was involved in the mail-order gun purchases, on grounds that he alluded to foreknowledge of and personal use of the Hidell alias, and because Nagell's M.O. was to pose as an investigator for one agency on one issue, while investigating for other agencies with sharper concerns. Who talked operative Oswald into buying guns from hot companies by mail? Was it under the pretense of aiding a gunrunning investigation, perhaps one implicating FPCC?

Edited by David Andrews
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent question, Kathy.

When one examines any of our great potential conspiracies, they start to find

a long series of facts that simply don't add up. "Duh!" they say to themselves,

"Who would actually believe this?" And then the ego kicks in and they start to

feel smarter because, after all, who else knows this stuff?

However, the sheer array of false facts does start to sound hollow after a while.

How could the 9-11 plotters have left so much riding on some Saudi crackpots?

How could the JFK crew have left so much in the hands of LHO and his Carcano?

Well, like Jim said, the actual conspirators aren't dumb. They know that they're

committing a crime and that all crimes have evidence to surround them. Rather

than hide it, though, they can instead bury it with myriad factoids--some true,

some sorta true, some sorta false, some false, and some pure disinformation.

I suspect that the rifle was convenient more than perfect and that the overall

action against JFK did not go very well either--thus giving us our wealth of hidden facts.

However, as mentioned before, the facts don't all have to add up for the story to work.

The conspirators were dealing with a large number of players (multiple patsies, shooters,

spotters, helpers, planners, funders, etc.) and so they had to plan for certain contingencies.

The after-action work (disinformation, framing the "investigation", mugging witnesses, etc.)

was more critical than the actual murder in most respects.

I'm sure that the rifle was dealt with as best as they could given the circumstances,

as seen by the later appearance of LHO's fingerprints on it, not to mention the late

planting of the "magic" bullet on the stretcher. They were panicked, and thus had to slip

in something to make-it-work. Thanks to Specter and Ford (among others), the bullet

did its job--ironically, after the fact--and the public was willing to believe the Warren

Commission's ballistics conclusion more than they were ready to question authority.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why did the conspirators "give" Oswald such a lousy rifle? Were they stupid?

Kathy C

Kathy

I will answer your question first with some questions:

If the conspirators were so stupid why weren't they caught?

You also seem to accept that they "gave" Oswald the rifle. What if they didn't give him the rifle?

What if they found a man who had a rifle and they began following his movements after they knew that he had attempted to kill another human being with that rifle (Walker incident and yes the FBI and the CIA's Richard Helms began tracking his movements shortly after this incident)?

What if the conspirators were smart enough to know that this man who had aquired a rifle and was willing to use it to kill would be willing to kill the President (Belin note where the CIA forensic Psyco docs say they could have predicted Oswald would kill the President IF they had known that he had shot at Walker)?

What if the conspirators could control where the motorcade route would go and could run it past where Oswald was working, would they then need to coverup the fact that they had that information (FBI Agent Hosty's third note, saying exactly where Oswald was working, that was never put into the Warren Commission Record and has never shown up on any CIA docs list although his other two notes do)?

My suggestion is that the conspirators, if they existed, were not "stupid" at all. Any group of conspirators that did exist were both successful and able to fool the American Public!

Jim Root

Well Edwin Walker was able to "fool the American Public" into thinking that it was Oswald who actually shot at him, so I guess

that anything is possible. And apparently Walker was able to fool quite a lot of other people into thinking that his activities in the

days before the assassination were spent in non-nefarious and non-conspiratorial activity during the secret meetings he attended.

And Walker's long time associations with Gerhard Frey, Theodor Oberlander, Charles Willoughby and others from the DNZ crowd were

apparently very well hidden from "the American Public" for quite a long time, but to no avail. Walker even visited Byron DeLa Beckwith

in jail shortly after the assassination of Medgar Evers, Jr. in a show of support for yet another violent, psychotic, anarchist and insurrectionist who traveled internationally in pursuit of a common pro-Fascist, KKK and NSRP styled agenda of murder and violence in

the name of Master Race Supremacy. Do you consider yourself part of "the American Public" and do you think that Walker may have in

fact pulled the wool over your eyes as well? Just curious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oswald, or an operative working alongside Oswald, ordered the rifle from Klein's and the pistol from Seaport Traders as part of a discrete investigation into those merchants the year before, for dispensing guns to Cubans or KKK or mob. Both companies linked to CIA. Other Oswald activities used color him in the press were conducted ostensibly as part of prep for lesser intel ops - perhaps all FPCC activities.

I guess the pistol you mention was the gun that killed Officer Tippit.

Kathy C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kathleen,

Oz couldn't have purchased an expensive or even an adequate sniper rifle given what the WC said about his resourses.

About 14.00 dollars was all he could have afforded had he actually bought the ordered weapon. If he'd ordered a 295.00 dollar rifle then it would have been imperative to explain when the $$$ came from.

I understand his IRS files are still classified.

I don't think he ever saw or even touched the Carcano while alive!

I can't think of one witness that ever saw Oz w/the rifle except De Mor and Marina and I discount both of their testimonies as many do.

jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The rifle Oswald allegedly ordered--and presuambly recieved--from Klein's was a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/24, which was a highly inaccurate rifle because, in order to achieve the 36-inch length that Ozzie ordered, the "business end" of the progressive-twist rifling--the part that imparted its accuracy--was cut off to shorten the barrel. BUT the rifle recovered from the TSBD was a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38, which had conventional rifling inside the barrel, and was originally manufactured [after rebarreling to the 6.5 mm from its original 7.35 mm bore] as the 40-inch rifle that was recovered. The 91/38 was an accurate rifle, cheap Japanese riflescope notwithstanding.

But there is no evidence linking Oswald to the 91/38 found in the TSBD, save for the palmprint "found" under the barrel, which was only revealed after Oswald died.

But the WC apparently wanted to have it both ways, that Oswald ordered [and received] the inaccurate 91/24, but he killed JFK with the accurate 91/38. Which is why folks are still arguing about this almost 46 years later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well Edwin Walker was able to "fool the American Public" into thinking that it was Oswald who actually shot at him, so I guess that anything is possible.

Do you consider yourself part of "the American Public" and do you think that Walker may have in

fact pulled the wool over your eyes as well? Just curious.

John

What I do know for certain is that my research into the life of Maj. Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker has led to what I believe is very fertile ground in the search for a plausible conspiracy theory and has allowed me to focus in on names of those that I believe were very well positioned to successfully carry out the assasination of JFK.

In that manner I would have to answer your question with a "NO" because it is my belief by not allowing the Walker story, as told by so many, to not pull the wool over my eyes, I have had the opportunity to dig into areas of research never before entered and have uncovered facts and documents that people in the field of intelligence have reported to me that they had only "an understanding that a document like that existed." I have interviewed numerous historians, to verify my research, and feel that I am on relatively solid ground in the knowledge that I have gained. Does this mean that I could prove my beliefs is a court of law, no I could not. Does it mean that my speculations and the knowledge that I have gained from research into those speculations has led me on a rather curious path....yes it has, oh yes it has!

To continued research and the hope of uncovering the real truth,

Jim Root

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...