SOUTH KNOLL #2

[William Plumlee]

Note I tried to post this in the right thread South Knoll, but the Quotes thing will not let me and I do noy have time to figure it out: I do not want to hear I refused to answer Bernice and Kathy's questions:

Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself. [\quote]

Tosh, I need to ask you a few questions and I hope you don't get angry because we like you on this forum. But there are things I wish to clear up.

What good is an assassination abort team that arrives minutes before the motorcade? It sounds like a "How were you going to find the shooters? How were you going to do that in that short time? half-assed" scheme to me. I don't think you had ever been in Dealey Plaza before. In what way were you going to stop Kennedy (and Connally)'s execution?

Other questions: Had you ever met Lee Harvey Oswald? Do you believe there were 2 Oswalds? Did you ever meet David Ferrie? Did you ever consider the possibility that you were flying the assassins themselves, with only minutes to spare? Something's not right. I hope you will answer these questions. I don't mean them in a mean-spirited way. I'm just not following your logic.

Kathy C

Kathy I'll do what I can in reference to your questions:

"... What good is an assassination abort team that arrives minutes before the motorcade? How were you going to find the shooters? How were you going to do that in that short time? It sounds like a "half-assed" scheme to me. I don't think you had ever been in Dealey Plaza before. In what way were you going to stop Kennedy (and Connally)'s execution?...".

I agree that a team could not really do very much with as little time as they had to get into position. The first place the assassination was to take place was the 'Aldopus Hotel' some blocks to the east. That location was changed at the last minute. (told to me sometime later by Bennette (pronounced Ben'net'tee) and Rex Allen in Florida. Keep in mind that I was NOT a leader of this team I was a pilot and only told about what their mission was, either directly at south Floridaand by overhead conversations on the flight. There had many many attempts or reported attempts on the Presidents life and this was not the first time this team had been dispatched. In fact they thought it was all, BULL. From what I did know this team did not take much stock in these reported hits on the President, because there had been many and some team members had been sent on a few)

"... "How were you going to find the shooters?...".

There were others assigned to the north side of the Plaza and Sergio and I to the south side of the Plaza. I have said before that the team was to find them or who they thought might be a shooter by going to the most logical places for "triangulation shooting" and 'take them out'. Now taking them out did not mean starting a fire fight, because if so many people there in the Plaza would have been killed. When I used the term, "take 'um out", was meant to get close enough to distract them and interfere with their timing, etc.

(note: Keep in mind that I was not originally one of the "abort team" members. I was one of the pilots who flew the team into Dallas from Florida. I was ask, by Sergio, if I wanted to come along and see the President. I would not have been at the operational level to know anything about the planning and the who done its and the whys. This has only came about after many years of soul searching and reviewing newly released documents which came about disjointed over the years, which has caused me to also speculate as to the reasons behind the assassination. The early years of the investigation, when questioned, caused me NOT to speculate, but over the years my thoughts and comments were sometimes taken out of context and twisted to fit others speculations or opinions)

I have always said that the operation was a "half-assed" affair. That, "...things were all F... up", and "nobody was where they were suppose to be"....".

"Had you ever met Lee Harvey Oswald?"

Yes. But not in the proper sense. Once near the house where the infamous backyard photo was taken. (a chance meeting) Some friends were shooting off fireworks in a field (or large vacant lot) across across from that house. The Dallas Police came, because of a complaint, and ask the group to stop shooting fireworks. I believed Oswald was there that day, watching. I could be wrong. But that is what I remember. On another occasion was at Nags Head North Carolina and a few months later in Hawaii while I was in "Jungle Warfare Training", near Wheeler Air Base. These were chance meetings and I did not know him only in the sense of being associated via the type operations we were in. Another time was at the Beckley Street address. As I have said before the apartment house behind the Beckley street was used as a safe house for some of the, "Dallas Cubans" who were involved in getting guns to Florida and into Cuba. Some of these boys were associated with the group known as Alpha-66 and Omega-7 and too, with the "Harlendale bunch" in south Oak Cliff, not far from the Beckley address. Oswald rented a romm in the main house. I did see Lee there a few times but he was not associated with any of the Cubans that I know off and I thought he was just a renter. I later heard that he was active at "Hensley Field in Grand Perrie Texas at the ONI naval office which was located there after moving from 'Bauckmans Lake', near Love Field airport in Dallas.

"... Do you believe there were 2 Oswalds?..."

I do now. But not years ago in the beginning of the investigations. I have no idea who the second one would be. If I tried to say it would only be speculations on my part.

"... Did you ever meet David Ferrie?.".

Yes. There was a time when most all pilots in and around south Florida knew each other in some way. It was a close knit family. The airlines were coming of age. Jet airliners were replacing piston type aircraft and the airlines were hiring many pilots, mostly old WW11 bomber pilots. In travels we all sometimes crossed paths and would do a lot of "old Hanger Flying" telling tall tales of our macho manhood and daring feats of old. I knew a lot of Eastern Airline pilots in and around Miami. Dave Farrie was one of those characters, a passing pilot much like two ships in the night.

"... Did you ever consider the possibility that you were flying the assassins themselves, with only minutes to spare? ..".

Yes I have. However, it has always been the attitude of the team coming out of Dallas that stops me from going there. They were very dejected and very quiet. The type attitude of someone who had failed in their mission.

I have been told many times that I, " flew the Attack Team in to assassinate the President". And I have been told in the manner that it was a FACT.. No it was speculation and opinion. I have ask why can't it be that a team was sent in by others in Washington that was not part of the group who wanted the President dead? I have ask many in the Pentagon and in MI about this and most all say they were aware of various people in government that hated the President and wanted him dead. Could it be that some of those launched an operation to kill the President and others in government tried to stop it at the very last minute? Anyway, its all speculations and perhaps will never be answered either way. John Stockwell, ex-station chief in Angola Africa, had a takeon this which he called, "The Paturoan?) Guard and wrote a book about that type of Presidential protection unit, somewhat like the Roman Guard. The military industrial complex in those days was indeed a very complex organization and there was hatred on both sides of various issues which in my opinion could have been the root cause of the assassination. I believe the assassination team was launched in Texas, by special intrest groups that came together to protect their interest and that of LBJ and the Pentagon found out about the plot and did not have time to get it all together to stop it. If this was made know it the time them all black operations ongoing at the time would have been compromised.

I will continue this at another time. Right now I have to go to Juarez Mexico, and will be gone for a few days on research on another matter. I am not ducking any questions, as some might claim, if I do not respond in the next few days.

Thanks Kathy, Bernice, and all, for your interest in the South Knoll thread

End

Edited February 23, 2010 by William Plumlee

[David Andrews]

Tosh, some time ago you ID'd the Dark Complected Man seen with The Umbrella Man by the Stemmons sign as "Gator," and said that he was aboard your return flight from Dallas (though not aboard the flight in).

Was Gator - in the street and waving at JFK, then seated next to TUM - a conspirator, in your knowledge or opinion?

Is it possible that he knew that flights were holding for some personnel in Dallas, and got aboard yours, as if it were just the next bus out?

Edited February 23, 2010 by David Andrews

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, some time ago you ID'd the Dark Complected Man seen with The Umbrella Man by the Stemmons sign as "Gator," and said that he was aboard your return flight from Dallas (though not aboard the flight in).

Was Gator - in the street and waving at JFK, then seated next to TUM - a conspirator, in your knowledge or opinion?

Is it possible that he knew that flights were holding for some personnel in Dallas, and got aboard yours, as if it were just the next bus out?

David: Gator was on board in and out. I have often thought that it was Gator at that curb side, because he was part of the abort team and would have been in that position as a spotter for the team and close enough to do something if something happened near him. I have ask many over the years to check the photo to determine if he had a few missing fingers. I do not know why or how he has been labeled the way he has been by the research community. To me its all speculation or their part as to why he was there. I say he was there to aid in the "Abort", but that too, is my speculation..., but it is an educated guess on my part and came about because I was involved in many previous operations and knew a little bit on how they came about.

I believe Gator thought the man next to him was someway involved in the attempt on the President's life (Gator's POV) and stationed himself there as a possible person who only wanted to see the parade and to watch this persons movements. (keep in mind that I am not allowed to "speculate" or have a faulty memory after all these years. I guess you could say because I was there I am held to a higher standard that most in the research community.., or by some a "lower" standard than some.

It was Roseli that did not get back on board the flight out. There were others that also were not on board but I do not remember their code names. We all worked with codes such as , Hawk, Raven, Eagle, Gator, etc.

Edited February 23, 2010 by William Plumlee

[David Andrews]

Thanks for the correction and the facts. I suppose that I assumed Gator wasn't inbound with you, my memory being that he wasn't mentioned as on the plane till the outbound.

Edited February 23, 2010 by David Andrews

[Ron Ecker]

It was Roseli that did not get back on board the flight out.

Tosh,

Wouldn't Rosselli, given who he was, fit more the role of an assassin than an abort team member?

Ron

[William Plumlee]

It was Roseli that did not get back on board the flight out.

Tosh,

Wouldn't Rosselli, given who he was, fit more the role of an assassin than an abort team member?

Ron

Ron: I would agree except Roselli liked Kennedy as well as other person associated with organized crime. Not all Mafia hated JFK or Bobby for that matter. They were split on that matter because of the drug thing and things that happen in Havana. And too, Roselli worked operations for the government on many occasions. Perhaps he was a "two edged sword". However, I feel he was there to see if he could ID anyone from the families who were there who might want to kill the President and aid the team. Roseli always worked close with MI because he wanted the points so as he would not be deported. He worked out of JM/WAVE on more that one mission.

Not to speak for Roselli but he thought that LBJ was behind the assassination. His story about his being in the sewer was nothing more that to draw some of the players out into the open. Hence Banono and the Grace Ranch for starters... my thoughts and speculation and feelings because I knew the man and had flown him to many places as an operative.

Edited February 23, 2010 by William Plumlee

[Steve Rosen]

Tosh,

Do you recall what John Rosselli's codename was, if any?

Cheers,

- Steve

[William Plumlee]

Tosh,

Do you recall what John Rosselli's codename was, if any?

Cheers,

- Steve

I believe it was "RAVEN", but not really sure after all these years. But, I do think it was Raven. There are some on this forum who might have the record and would care to confirm this. It was put on tape many years ago in California. There was so much going on and getting off and on the aircraft, and movement, I could not even keep them straight at the time of the flight. I told some investigators that at the time after the shooting, but it was said I was, "holding out" and protecting the players. No facts to that just their statements and thoughts at the time. I was Eagle along with Rojas the other pilot. That I do know.

[Cliff Varnell]

I have been told many times that I, " flew the Attack Team in to assassinate the President". And I have been told in the manner that it was a FACT.. No it was speculation and opinion. I have ask why can't it be that a team was sent in by others in Washington that was not part of the group who wanted the President dead? I have ask many in the Pentagon and in MI about this and most all say they were aware of various people in government that hated the President and wanted him dead. Could it be that some of those launched an operation to kill the President and others in government tried to stop it at the very last minute?

Yes! But I'd speculate that the ones who tried to stop it only wanted to save it for

another day, and thus sought to "abort" the mission rather than expose it. If anything,

Oswald(s) was/were portable.

Here is a demonstration of the kind of pure power that can launch abort missions:

Max Hollands's The Assassination Tapes, pg 57:

At 6:55 p.m. Johnson has a ten minute meeting with Senator J. William Fulbright

and diplomat W. Averell Harriman to discuss possible foreign involvement in the

assassination, especially in light of the two-and-a-half-year sojourn of Lee Harvey

Oswald [in Russia]...Harriman, a U.S. ambassador to Moscow during WWII, is an

experienced interpreter of Soviet machinations and offers the president the

unanimous view of the U.S. government's top Kremlinologists. None of them

believe the Soviets have a hand in the assassination, despite the Oswald association.

Well, that certainly cleared that up -- dinnit?

JFK's body wasn't back in town a half hour before Harriman foreclosed

on any Soviet complicity in his murder -- in spite of a stream of

Oswald-as-Castro-agent "evidence" proliferating like an oil slick that

afternoon and evening.

How could Harriman responsibly rule out the Soviets unless he

actually knew who killed Kennedy?

We know that the Oswald-as-lone-nut "official story" emanated from

the White House Situation Room that afternoon:

From Vincent Salandria's "The Tale Told by Two Tapes":

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...art=#entry31073

(quote on)

In November of 1966, I read Theodore H. White's The Making of the President, 1964...

[O]n page 33 I read the following about the flight back to Washington, D.C. from Dallas:

On the flight the party learned that there was no conspiracy, learned of the

identity of Oswald and his arrest; and the President's mind turned to the

duties of consoling the stricken and guiding the quick.

...* The Situation Room of the White House first fingered Oswald as the

lone assassin when an innocent government, with so much evidence

in Dealey Plaza of conspiracy, would have been keeping all options open.

Therefore this premature birth of the single-assassin myth points to the

highest institutional structure of our warfare state as guilty of the crime

of killing Kennedy. Such a source does not take orders from the Mafia

nor from renegade elements. But such a source is routinely given to

using the Mafia and supposedly out-of-control renegade sources to do

its bidding.

* McGeorge Bundy was in charge of the Situation Room and was spending

that fateful afternoon receiving phone calls from President Johnson, who

was calling from Air Force One when the lone-assassin myth was

prematurely given birth. (Bishop, Jim, The Day Kennedy Was Shot,

New York & Funk Wagnalls, 1968), p. 154) McGeorge Bundy as the

quintessential WASP establishmentarian did not take his orders from the

Mafia and/or renegade elements.

(quote off)

Who did Bundy take orders from?

Joseph Trento, The Secret History of the CIA pgs 334-5:

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York,

W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960,

President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate

“with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of

all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to [Pentagon aide

William R.] Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting

the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security

team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments

secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor,

was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president.

He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the

White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

I'd speculate the blue-blood types who pushed the Oswald-lone-nut "official story"

the afternoon of 11/22/63 had a motive to keep Kennedy in power -- they were

already getting their way with him!

To wit: W. Averell Harriman was the architect of the overthrow of Diem.

Kennedy in his own words put Harriman at the front of "those in favor of the coup,"

the overthrow of the So. Vietnamese government and murder of Ngo Dinh Diem

and his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu on 11/1-2/63.

http://www.whitehousetapes.net/clips/1963_...nam_memoir.html

From Ira Wood's JFK Timeline:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono1.pdf

November 2, 1963.

(John Kenneth) Galbraith writes (W. Averell) Harriman, “The South Vietnam coup is another

feather in your cap. Do get me a list of all of the people who told us there was no alternative

to Diem.” A cautious Harriman tells his secretary, “File and don’t answer."

From David Talbot's Brothers, pg 217:

The Pentagon and CIA were taking secret steps to sabotage [JFK's Vietnam] troop

withdrawal plan. And even trusted advisors like Harriman, the Moscow-friendly

globe-trotting tycoon whom Kennedy thought he could rely on to broker a deal

on Vietnam, were brazenly undercutting his peace initiatives.

Harriman was conducting his own foreign policy in South East Asia. As Kennedy's

chief negotiator on the 1962 Geneva Accords he took a dovish approach and sought

total neutralization of Laos while the rest of the US foreign policy establishment

wanted to put in 60,000 US troops ("Ave's Cave" the hawks called it.)

But on Vietnam policy Harriman was a covert super-hawk.

Gareth Porter describes Harriman's machinations in detail in his great book,

The Perils of Dominance, in a section titled: The Hidden Struggle Over

Peace Diplomacy, pgs 153-64.

Debra Conway did a great presentation on this at the 2005 Lancer.

http://jfklancer.com/dallas05/ppt/conway/versions.ppt.htm

Here's a passage about Harriman's influence on SE Asia policy from an

article titled: "William Colby, the Hmong, and the CIA":

http://www.hmongnet.org/hmong-au/hmongcia.htm

(empahsis added)

American desire to adhere to the spirit of the [Laotian] Geneva Accords deemed it necessary

that the Hmong serve as a clandestine force which could harass the North Vietnamese without

being directly linked to the United States. The Hmong were prohibited from taking any offensive

actions as that could lead to an escalation in the war on the part of the North Vietnamese.

Increased fighting also had the potential to expose the American support of the Hmong and could

possibly lead to a complete annulment of the Geneva Accords. Colby - then CIA Deputy Director - was

instructed by Assistant Secretary W. Averell Harriman of the State Department to keep the effort in

Laos purely defensive in nature.

"'Okay, one hundred guns but no attacks, only for defense,' " Colby said of Harriman's orders.

Since Harriman gave orders to Lyndon Johnson, it shouldn't surprise us that

the Assistant Secretary of State gave orders to the deputy director of the CIA.

Why did Harriman personally seek a de-militarized Laos and a SVN

gov't friendly to American military ascendancy?

The former policy-- a low-level conflict in "neutral" Laos -- bucked the US foreign-policy/military

Establishment. The latter policy -- a covert sabotage of Kennedy's Vietnam peace

initiatives -- obviously bucked Kennedy.

Kernnedy wanted to get out of Vietnam. Harriman had his own agenda.

Maybe it had to do with those bright fields of Laotian opium poppy...

Anyway, its all speculations and perhaps will never be answered either way.

Got that right ...But this beats 99% of anything else discussed on the subject.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Cliff Varnell

[William Plumlee]

I have been told many times that I, " flew the Attack Team in to assassinate the President". And I have been told in the manner that it was a FACT.. No it was speculation and opinion. I have ask why can't it be that a team was sent in by others in Washington that was not part of the group who wanted the President dead? I have ask many in the Pentagon and in MI about this and most all say they were aware of various people in government that hated the President and wanted him dead. Could it be that some of those launched an operation to kill the President and others in government tried to stop it at the very last minute?

Yes! But I'd speculate that the ones who tried to stop it only wanted to save it for

another day, and thus sought to "abort" the mission rather than expose it. If anything,

Oswald(s) was/were portable.

Here is a demonstration of the kind of pure power that can launch abort missions:

Max Hollands's The Assassination Tapes, pg 57:

At 6:55 p.m. Johnson has a ten minute meeting with Senator J. William Fulbright

and diplomat W. Averell Harriman to discuss possible foreign involvement in the

assassination, especially in light of the two-and-a-half-year sojourn of Lee Harvey

Oswald [in Russia]...Harriman, a U.S. ambassador to Moscow during WWII, is an

experienced interpreter of Soviet machinations and offers the president the

unanimous view of the U.S. government's top Kremlinologists. None of them

believe the Soviets have a hand in the assassination, despite the Oswald association.

Well, that certainly cleared that up -- dinnit?

JFK's body wasn't back in town a half hour before Harriman foreclosed

on any Soviet complicity in his murder -- in spite of a stream of

Oswald-as-Castro-agent "evidence" proliferating like an oil slick that

afternoon and evening.

How could Harriman responsibly rule out the Soviets unless he

actually knew who killed Kennedy?

We know that the Oswald-as-lone-nut "official story" emanated from

the White House Situation Room that afternoon:

From Vincent Salandria's "The Tale Told by Two Tapes":

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...art=#entry31073

(quote on)

In November of 1966, I read Theodore H. White's The Making of the President, 1964...

[O]n page 33 I read the following about the flight back to Washington, D.C. from Dallas:

On the flight the party learned that there was no conspiracy, learned of the

identity of Oswald and his arrest; and the President's mind turned to the

duties of consoling the stricken and guiding the quick.

...* The Situation Room of the White House first fingered Oswald as the

lone assassin when an innocent government, with so much evidence

in Dealey Plaza of conspiracy, would have been keeping all options open.

Therefore this premature birth of the single-assassin myth points to the

highest institutional structure of our warfare state as guilty of the crime

of killing Kennedy. Such a source does not take orders from the Mafia

nor from renegade elements. But such a source is routinely given to

using the Mafia and supposedly out-of-control renegade sources to do

its bidding.

* McGeorge Bundy was in charge of the Situation Room and was spending

that fateful afternoon receiving phone calls from President Johnson, who

was calling from Air Force One when the lone-assassin myth was

prematurely given birth. (Bishop, Jim, The Day Kennedy Was Shot,

New York & Funk Wagnalls, 1968), p. 154) McGeorge Bundy as the

quintessential WASP establishmentarian did not take his orders from the

Mafia and/or renegade elements.

(quote off)

Who did Bundy take orders from?

Joseph Trento, The Secret History of the CIA pgs 334-5:

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York,

W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960,

President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate

“with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of

all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to [Pentagon aide

William R.] Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting

the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security

team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments

secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor,

was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president.

He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the

White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

I'd speculate the blue-blood types who pushed the Oswald-lone-nut "official story"

the afternoon of 11/22/63 had a motive to keep Kennedy in power -- they were

already getting their way with him!

To wit: W. Averell Harriman was the architect of the overthrow of Diem.

Kennedy in his own words put Harriman at the front of "those in favor of the coup,"

the overthrow of he So Vietnamese government and murder of Ngo Dinh Diem

and his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu on 11/1-2/63.

http://www.whitehousetapes.net/clips/1963_...nam_memoir.html

From David Talbot's Brothers, pg 217:

The Pentagon and CIA were taking secret steps to sabotage [JFK's Vietnam] troop

withdrawal plan. And even trusted advisors like Harriman, the Moscow-friendly

globe-trotting tycoon whom Kennedy thought he could rely on to broker a deal

on Vietnam, were brazenly undercutting his peace initiatives.

Harriman was conducting his own foreign policy in South East Asia. As Kennedy's

chief negotiator on the 1962 Geneva Accords he took a dovish approach and sought

total neutralization of Laos while the rest of the US foreign policy establishment

wanted to put in 60,000 US troops ("Ave's Cave" the hawks called it.)

But on Vietnam policy Harriman was a covert super-hawk.

Gareth Porter describes Harriman's machinations in detail in his great book,

The Perils of Dominance, in a section titled: The Hidden Struggle Over

Peace Diplomacy, pgs 153-64.

Debra Conway did a great presentation on this at the 2005 Lancer.

http://jfklancer.com/dallas05/ppt/conway/versions.ppt.htm

Here's a passage about Harriman's influence on SE Asia policy from an

article titled: "William Colby, the Hmong, and the CIA":

http://www.hmongnet.org/hmong-au/hmongcia.htm

(empahsis added)

American desire to adhere to the spirit of the [Laotian] Geneva Accords deemed it necessary

that the Hmong serve as a clandestine force which could harass the North Vietnamese without

being directly linked to the United States. The Hmong were prohibited from taking any offensive

actions as that could lead to an escalation in the war on the part of the North Vietnamese.

Increased fighting also had the potential to expose the American support of the Hmong and could

possibly lead to a complete annulment of the Geneva Accords. Colby - then CIA Deputy Director - was

instructed by Assistant Secretary W. Averell Harriman of the State Department to keep the effort in

Laos purely defensive in nature.

"'Okay, one hundred guns but no attacks, only for defense,' " Colby said of Harriman's orders.

Since Harriman gave orders to Lyndon Johnson, it shouldn't surprise us that

the Assistant Secretary of State gave orders to the deputy director of the CIA.

Why did Harriman personally seek a de-militarized Laos and a SVN

gov't friendly to American military ascendancy?

The former policy-- a low-level conflict in "neutral" Laos -- bucked the US foreign-policy/military

Establishment. The latter policy -- a covert sabotage of Kennedy's Vietnam peace

initiatives -- obviously bucked Kennedy.

Kernnedy wanted to get out of Vietnam. Harriman had his own agenda.

Maybe it had to do with those bright fields of Laotian opium poppy...

Anyway, its all speculations and perhaps will never be answered either way.

Got that right ...But this beats 99% of anything else discussed on the subject.

Thank You Cliff for taking the time to gather and post all the above. It is certainly food for thought and does seem to fit a common thread of the time.

[Cliff Varnell]

Thank You Cliff for taking the time to gather and post all the above. It is certainly food for thought and does seem to fit a common thread of the time.

You're welcome, Tosh. It's great to bounce this stuff to ya. There's more...Laos

was one end of the teeter-totter. The other end was Cuba...

[William Plumlee]

Thank You Cliff for taking the time to gather and post all the above. It is certainly food for thought and does seem to fit a common thread of the time.

You're welcome, Tosh. It's great to bounce this stuff to ya. There's more...Laos

was one end of the teeter-totter. The other end was Cuba...

Some years ago I saw a document that indicated that JFK was going to fire LBJ, or take him off the ticket in the next election. It seems some of the Texas questions about LBJ and his early illegal politics he engaged in had became known to the Kennedy administration and the DoJ. Mac Wallace was mentioned in that document. Does anyone have a copy of that document or information concerning the investigation into LBJ's activities done by Bobby Kennedy?

[Bernice Moore]

Thank You Cliff for taking the time to gather and post all the above. It is certainly food for thought and does seem to fit a common thread of the time.

You're welcome, Tosh. It's great to bounce this stuff to ya. There's more...Laos

was one end of the teeter-totter. The other end was Cuba...

Some years ago I saw a document that indicated that JFK was going to fire LBJ, or take him off the ticket in the next election. It seems some of the Texas questions about LBJ and his early illegal politics he engaged in had became known to the Kennedy administration and the DoJ. Mac Wallace was mentioned in that document. Does anyone have a copy of that document or information concerning the investigation into LBJ's activities done by Bobby Kennedy?

i have no idea if this may be what you saw i do not recall such other than this that is available.fwiw..b

http://www.ratical.com/ratville/JFK/Hoover.html

[William Plumlee]

Thank You Cliff for taking the time to gather and post all the above. It is certainly food for thought and does seem to fit a common thread of the time.

You're welcome, Tosh. It's great to bounce this stuff to ya. There's more...Laos

was one end of the teeter-totter. The other end was Cuba...

Some years ago I saw a document that indicated that JFK was going to fire LBJ, or take him off the ticket in the next election. It seems some of the Texas questions about LBJ and his early illegal politics he engaged in had became known to the Kennedy administration and the DoJ. Mac Wallace was mentioned in that document. Does anyone have a copy of that document or information concerning the investigation into LBJ's activities done by Bobby Kennedy?

i have no idea if this may be what you saw i do not recall such other than this that is available.fwiw..b

http://www.ratical.com/ratville/JFK/Hoover.html

Thanks Bernice: This is a good recap and I believe it was taken from that document I mentioned. The document was a DoJ classified document declassified about 1999 I believe. Was heavy blacked out and some facts covered up in reference to content... Thanks for providing the link for study. Tosh

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, some time ago you ID'd the Dark Complected Man seen with The Umbrella Man by the Stemmons sign as "Gator," and said that he was aboard your return flight from Dallas (though not aboard the flight in).

Was Gator - in the street and waving at JFK, then seated next to TUM - a conspirator, in your knowledge or opinion?

Is it possible that he knew that flights were holding for some personnel in Dallas, and got aboard yours, as if it were just the next bus out?

David: Gator was on board in and out. I have often thought that it was Gator at that curb side, because he was part of the abort team and would have been in that position as a spotter for the team and close enough to do something if something happened near him. I have ask many over the years to check the photo to determine if he had a few missing fingers. I do not know why or how he has been labeled the way he has been by the research community. To me its all speculation or their part as to why he was there. I say he was there to aid in the "Abort", but that too, is my speculation..., but it is an educated guess on my part and came about because I was involved in many previous operations and knew a little bit on how they came about.

I believe Gator thought the man next to him was someway involved in the attempt on the President's life (Gator's POV) and stationed himself there as a possible person who only wanted to see the parade and to watch this persons movements. (keep in mind that I am not allowed to "speculate" or have a faulty memory after all these years. I guess you could say because I was there I am held to a higher standard that most in the research community.., or by some a "lower" standard than some.

It was Roseli that did not get back on board the flight out. There were others that also were not on board but I do not remember their code names. We all worked with codes such as , Hawk, Raven, Eagle, Gator, etc.

Interesting article by Ron Ecker:

http://hobrad.angelfire.com/umbrella.html

Edited February 24, 2010 by William Plumlee